Jesus, that translation is terrible.

Gotcha.. so it's a bad mini game.

I'd rather wait for the PC Gamer to come out to get it from the horses mouth.

Although I will say before hand that I wouldn't be shocked one bit of that is how it turns out. Seriously, were people actually thinking Bioware/LA were going to put in a FULL FLEDGED SPACE COMBAT SIMULATOR in the middle of an already overly ambitious MMO? KOTOR 1 had the On-Rails Shooter parts...why would they do anything different here?

Space Combat, regardless of how deep or shallow of a system it is, isn't exactly why I'd play the game anyway. I will admit however a mix of SWG's Spaceship system combined with some of the old feel of X-Wing/Tie Fighter 'would have been cool', just terribly unrealistic.

_________________

Why would they NOT put in a FULL FLEDGED SPACE COMBAT SIMULATOR? If they want the game to be the best, they need to aim higher than high. I am not doubting the game's potential, but there's no reason to think they can't produce more than simply a MMORPG and a space-combat-simulator-on-rails. Imagine if the final verdict was "it combines the best parts of World of Warcraft with the best parts of EverQuest with the best parts of EverQuest 2 with the best parts of Warhammer Online with the best parts of Lord of the Rings Online with the best parts of Eve Online." THAT'S a game that would turn the industry upside down. Will it happen? No. Does that mean we can't WISH it would happen? No. Does that mean that Bioware shouldn't strive to make it happen? Absolutely not.

Hehe totally agree. As I've said before, any game that even has a remote chance of offering a WoW alternative will have to be absolutely complete and borderline bugless from the start. It will have to have a bit of everything to even have a chance to survive.

_________________
Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

If it was merely not a space simulator I think one could be content. Seems like there should be some middle ground between "OH MY GOD SPACE SIMULATOR PERFECT REALISM" and a mock-up of KOTOR from nearly a decade ago. Judging from some of those comments, it sounds pretty close to the former. As noted, they should be aiming high especially with WoW still around. This combined with the released info about character classes just points to the game being massively uncomplex in every way. I hope that's not the case, because I really want a good space MMO, but it's hard to hold my breath on this one.

I don't like the idea of having to do character and vehicle progression simultaneously,

Auto-Assault anyone?

Everyone gets to wear their white-knight hat from time to time, let me put mine on real quick....OK ready.


I'll cite SWG as to why Ground Based MMO + Flight Sim do not mix. That was supposed to have been a launch feature of SWG, but none of the Space Content was even out of the concept stages by the time the game was released. They did a shit patchwork job of getting it integrated but it was too late. The game was already terrible and adding a Flight Sim made it even more terrible.

"Could" Bioware have gone the other direction, and incorporated a 'FULL FLEDGED SPACE COMBAT SIMULATOR'? I'm sure they could have. But you have to remember that they are also working on the limitations set by Lucas Arts in some departments. I'm fairly certain LA learned some very valuable lessons from SWG and Sony, and decided that Space Combat for this game would be vastly limited. Besides the fact that in this game, you don't get to upgrade to 'Different' ships. You get 1 ship type, based on your character class, and you get to do upgrades to it. So you aren't going from a (using X-Wing ships) Z98 Headhunter to an X-Wing to a Y-Wing to an A-Wing to a B-Wing etc etc etc.


From the way I see it, they are already aiming pretty damn high with the game as it is. They're going to release a AAA Title with an Astronomical Budget, over 7 years of Development time, the full support of EA, the gaming experience of several studios NOT TO MENTION that (like Blizzard) Bioware has never released a 'Bad Game'. They have a stellar reputation for what they do, just like Blizzard does. And in this current market, I personally believe that Bioware are the only company who stand a snowballs chance in Hell at offering a product that at the very least can offer the same kind of play experience that WoW did 6 years ago. Go read their forums. The only people who want this game to "BEAT WOW" are the Uberfans who haven't played WoW in over 4 years and their opinions about it are all second hand based. Stories of how bad WoW is or how good WoW from a friend of a friend.

I see several reasons why they decided to not to do it...a more recent one than SWG is STO. Star Trek, like Star Wars, has a built in fan base which dwarfs WoW by the numbers. Yet the product they created, a Full Ground MMO + Full Space Sim MMO was a bomb. Sure, they probably made their money back on box sales and the idiots who went for lifetime subscriptions but it'll stay a float the same way LOTRO does...off an absolute niche group of super fans who are so die-hard to the franchise they won't let it go.



I don't disagree one bit. However, the idiom "fingers in too many pies" comes to mind. If Bioware took the best parts of WoW, the best parts of EQ1/2, the best parts of WAR (which I can see them doing this one since 90% of the WAR devs who didn't lose their jobs are on TOR now), but took the most mediocre parts of LOTRO (which are too numerous to name, Deeds/Traits being the big one) and tried to emulate EVE and fucked up...the veteran MMO Community would come down on their heads for 'stealing' ideas or concepts and totally fucking them up. Imitation and improvement only gain you accolades if you manage to make it better, Blizzard has learned this with several games...as have Bioware with their RPGs.

Like I said, a mix of SWG's Spaceship system combined with some of the old feel of X-Wing/Tie Fighter would have been cool to see but I understand why they aren't going that route.

_________________

It's only "fingers in too many pies" because someone hasn't done it right yet. Once someone does it right, every game will be held to that same standard. It is much the same way in which PVP has been incorporated into traditionally "PVE" games and is now expected. A MMORPG without PVP will not make it, period.

I disagree with pretty much every point you made in your post. You said it yourself, they've been working on the game for at least seven years. Let's call it 9 years by the time it is released. In 9 years, I expect ninja-pirate-strippers-riding-sharks-with-fucking-lasers-where-every-kill-results-in-a-fatality-better-than-Mortal-Kombat-10, not Mass[ively Multiplayer] Effect. As a consumer, there is nothing wrong with wanting or even expecting this, even if the developers cannot ultimately deliver the goods.

It's simple really. When you proclaim your game is the next coming of Christ, every facet of it better be top notch as fuck. If they are just going to throw in space combat ala Rebel Assault, then take that shit back to the kitchen and don't fucking come back with it until you get it finished and done correctly.

Space combat on rails... Seriously? How can anybody even defend that bullshit or even think it's anywhere near what people would want, especially when you consider the level of expectation this game carries.

I want this game to be as awesome as WoW was when it launched. Even better so. Everything else is boring as shit. WoW is boring as shit. Cata will be the same old but watered down to the level of Canadian beer. They have a crazy amount of backing. There is zero excuse to half ass anything at this point in time. I don't want that old feel of 20 other games. I want this one to do it right.



I don't really give a shit about the focus on story either. The Rebels win. If there isn't anything to do to keep you playing, I.E. character development/advancement, I'll throw this one on the pile with the rest of the bullshit MMOs that fall into this pitfall.

You're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else. SWG and STO were both monumental failures based on the hype involved vs what their respective companies attempted to deliver. And again, they only stay open due to a very niche customer base who're more loyal to the brand/franchise than the particular game itself. LA said about 2 years ago they think SWG and TOR will co-exist fine. I guess we'll see.

You think Bioware should over-bloat the game simply based on the idea that it has been in development for X amount of time so it should have Y list of features. Ok. This is where I get my smarmy ass revenge by saying Starcraft 2 was in development for 11-12 years and all it did was perfect what it had previously done. Every professional review of the game (after its release...) has basically said thus "It perfected the genre it helped revolutionize 12 years ago while doing very little to change the formula. It improved in the areas which needed improving". Genre is unimportant in this so don't bother trying to hide behind the "RTS vs MMO" crap. You're specifically talking about innovation at this point. Point out to me how this is any different? For all we know, TOR 'could' improve on every area which WoW did well while only adding the 'voice-acting' and 'story' elements to the genre...by the very definition, it has innovated where others have not.

Again, I'm not shocked this is what they're doing but I'd rather they pitch the idea of space combat entirely instead or develop it into something better than have it released as a half-assed feature/mini-game/etc.

_________________

I'M SO EXCITED FOR THIS GAME!

Not only are they going to show me how a bounty hunter can go toe to toe with a sith warrior, but they're also going to show how an x-wing can fly in one direction and have its laser beams shoot in an entirely different direction! Woohoo!

I dunno...I don't see a problem with a flight sim if they do it right.

Why? Because lets be honest here, the "standard" MMO system is pretty worn out. If you want yet another MMO where one guy stands in front of stuff and gets hit a lot while another dude heals him and 3 other dudes beat the stuff up, we've got tons of those. We've been there and done that.

And then we have a Star Wars MMO...and like I said earlier, it seems like a *perfect* place to break away from the old sword & sorcery MMO style. But it doesn't seem like they're going to do that. And even if you don't like WoW, you have to admit that any new game is going to be hard pressed to bring something new to the table that WoW hasn't already done to death using the standard MMO system.

It's been discussed before, WoW is kind of bad for the MMO market as a whole because of the stranglehold it has on the potential customer base of any other MMO. If another game wants to succeed, they'd better not try to just make a WoW-clone with different graphics because it won't have anything compelling to tear people away.

Space combat could be where they break away from the typical MMO systems with something that's a signature of the universe they're working in. For those reasons, I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to bring that to the table.

I would rather a game did a few things extremely well than many things pretty good. To Neesha's point I certainly wouldn't mind a game that did everything I want and more extremely well, but if that isn't one of my options then I'm ok with the 1st case. I have high hopes for this game, I hope it lives up to the hype. Wow was the last game to really do that....well a few console games lived up to the hype but I mean computer MMOs.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthre ... dit3815248



Crisis averted, you can all stop crying that the sky is falling...for now.

_________________

I didn't really see any crying.

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/09/the ... -pc-gamer/

It's interesting reading this thread and the SC2 thread. You basically have an outfit like massively first expressing relief that the space combat won't have rails, and then proceed to outline a system that is.. rails! It's not a shooter on rails, it's a "tunnel shooter". Starcraft 2 doesn't do anything new, it "perfects a classic". Spin, spin, spin...

I hope the space combat is completely optional. I'd rather see a totally passive space battle sequence/cinematic than feel obligated to participate in a shitty arcade game that is single player only.

It's a shame. If they had space combat as a hybrid... similar to eve online, or maybe where you board the other ship and then proceed around inside it like a typical mmo environment, that could be fun. Implement a system much like Eve, but simpler, and incorporate boarding.. now THAT would be sweet. Can you imagine a getting 20 of your buddies in their various ships and trying to destroy/board a capital ship or something? A mix of RPG elements where you have to build up your own ships in order to survive, and then a switch to a PVE raiding environment on the ship itself, with the boss being a famed bounty hunter, slaver, sith lord? That would own.

I find it entertaining and a bit misleading that Massively is parroting the German article basically to the letter, saying that its a "Tunnel Shooter" not an "On-Rails" Shooter...yet Bioware's own Community manager is denying that Space Combat is either.

_________________

Well, the one tiny screenshot does not prove anything. I tend to believe that it is going to be some sort of "on-rails" shooter. Why else would Bioware's own Community manager not provide more details other than "look at the picture which shows nothing"?

Here's the picture that shows and proves nothing:



There's no proof that the tiny Millenium Falcon-looking ship is the one the player is flying and not just a ship passing by the player's first-person view from inside his own ship. Call me a skeptic at this point.

Skeptic.

Gracias

/agree. And hell, perhaps they don't really have any desire to beat out WoW in some way, but it's sad if that's the case because the opportunities to change things up for the better or improve upon concepts are certainly there. I don't even mind if it's mostly a clone of WoW, so long as they go to extremes on polish like Blizzard does. The space combat thing does present a unique opportunity though, and if they can get it right it will be one of the game's major selling points.

Then again, as unfortunate as it is for gaming connoisseurs, the game probably won't need to beat out WoW's gameplay to be very successful. Never, ever underestimate the sheer number of people that will buy up crap just because it has the two words "Star Wars" in the title.

What he said. I think most new MMO's are not going to impress us "old timers" because how different is WoW from EQ really? It's core is the same, just a much better game engine that is all. EQ2 did add full voice acting (good step forward), but all these games are pretty much no different from each other if you think about.

Kill, loot, kill and loot again until you are max level. Then, grind to get your rewards, or hand-me-outs these days. That is why I liked messing around in PvP because it's a grind, but matches are never the same twice etc. Well, unless you are on Uther, where the Alliance LOSES almost every BG match there is.

Anyway, I really don't think Star Wars will be fresh and unique other than the story driven content. That is the reason I'm playing the game. It will get old fast too, but no matter how much you try to change things around...MMO's will all share the same core gameplay. Which is simple...kill, loot, kill and repeat. I don't think that is fun anymore.

They're throwing "tunnel shooter" around because nobody wants to say "on rails" like everyone knows it will be. All they have to say, straight from a BioWare source that is, that yes or no, you do or do not have full control of your ship.

Fucking failboat. Just drop the fucking shit and make me a 3 min cinematic that plays between traveling from planet to planet because god knows they can crank out movies to show me how the game will play.

Anything could be broken down into 3 easy steps that sound boring. Chew, swallow, digest and repeat. Up, down, moan and repeat. Not saying that MMOs are best thing since sliced bread, just that some things don't need to change to be enjoyable. I can't remember the last time I saw an original movie plot or a play in a baseball game I haven't seen made before. I still enjoy both though.

Jedi Advanced Classes Confirmed -

Jedi Guardian is the Tank and Jedi Sentinel is the DPS. The Sentinel will apparently also have "control and focus are the hallmarks" as class traits.

So this confirms that both Sith Juggernaut/Jedi Guardian are Tanks, Sith Marauder/Jedi Sentinel are DPS.

_________________

Further to that info above:

http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/jedi-knight


Jedi Knight class trailer.

Space Combat video
http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/space-combat

Graphically, it looks good. But it does appear to be 'On Rails'. Oh well, doesn't matter to me. I'm obviously not in the camp of people nerd-raging over it.

_________________

Just saying...

This reminds me more like the "air combat" missions in WoW, where you fly around (with no control of the ship or bird you are on) bombing things or shooting those birds out of the skies. I am not saying it won't be fun, or it isn't pretty, I am just saying that it's far from anything special or unique as it stands now.

I still find it ironic (or maybe unfortunate) that Bioware refused to just admit what it was when the German Article was leaked...especially now they themselves provide video proof of exactly what it is. Call it whatever you like, Tunnel Shooter/Rail Shooter/On Rails Vehicular Combat/etc/etc/etc. I understand from a press release perspective on why they had to just smile, nod their heads, and not say anything (or comment) specifically...still.

And I completely agree that it is far from unique or special. I don't know though, it looks plenty fun to me. In fact, I can guarantee that I'll enjoy grinding Space Shooter dailies a whole lot more than Cooking dailies...or Jousting dailies (which do make a return in Cata btw, just in an evolved for...take 'Joust' literally)...or kill X number of Undead dailies. Imagine if these space shooter levels have leaderboards....can you imagine the super nerd rage over top spots?

_________________

Looks like we'll have to wait a bit longer if we want to see an epic space MMORPG with the freedom of EVE combined with the gameplay of some of the good space shooters of yore.

But hey, I'm glad it'll be more fun than jousting or cooking dailies! That's a hell of a standard to beat!

Straight from Gamescom - More info on Advanced Classes

Trooper

Commando - (Ranged DPS) - Heavy Blaster Cannons, Grenades
Vanguard - (Ranged Tank) - Blaster Rifles, Energy Shields/Defensive Buffs

Smuggler

Scoundrel - (Burst Ranged DPS & Healing) - Blaster Shotguns (likely Slugthrower type weapons), Stealth/Medicine
Gunslinger - (Ranged DPS) - Duel Wields Blaster Pistols, Quick Draw/Fast Attacks

Jedi Knight

Jedi Sentinel - (Melee DPS) - Duel Wields Lightsabers, Saber fighting specialist, abilities tied to different saber style-based moves
Jedi Guardian - (Melee Tank) - Wields Single Lightsaber, able to wear Heavy Armor, Leadership/Party buffs

Jedi Consular

Jedi Shadow - (Melee DPS) - Wields Double Bladed Lightsaber, Stealth, abilities tied to force powers combined with saber moves
Jedi Wizard - (Ranged Control & Damage, Healing) - Wields Single Lightsaber, Powerful Force-based telekinetic powers, Force-based healing powers

Bounty Hunter

Power Tech - (Ranged Tank) - Flamethrowers, Energy Shields/Defensive Buffs
Mercenary - (Ranged DPS) - Duel Wields Blaster Pistols, Missiles

Sith Warrior

Sith Juggernaut - (Melee Tank) - Wields Single Lightsaber, able to wear Heavy Armor, Fear and Darkside Auras
Sith Marauder - (Melee DPS) - Duel Wields Lightsabers, Saber fighting specialist, abilities tied to different saber style-based moves

Imperial Agent

Operative - (Ranged DPS) - Blaster Rifles/Energy Blades, Stealth, Cover
Sniper - (Ranged DPS) - Sniper Rifles, Cover, Ambush, Orbital Strike

Sith Inquisitor

Sith Sorceror - (Ranged DPS & Healer) - Wields Single Lightsaber, Uses Force Lightning based powers for damage and Force Drain powers for healing
Sith Assassin - (Melee DPS) - Wields Double Bladed Lightsaber, Stealth, abilities tied to force powers combined with saber moves

Edit: Edited with more updated info...

_________________

Interesting info on the specialized classes, and yet it still doesn't tell us anything.

Jedi consular specializes between either a double-bladed lightsaber or healing / single saber? That's it? What about, oh I don't know, FORCE powers available? That's what people really want to know.

I'm also hoping that they don't completely pigeonhole lightsaber use based on specialized class. If I wanted to use a double-bladed saber as a "Wizard" (ugh, who thought of that name?), it shouldn't be a problem. Or if I wanted a dual lightsaber Consular-Shadow, I don't see why not.

Some of the lines they're drawing between class roles seem.... odd, to put it nicely.

Both the Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular are not playable at the moment in Beta or at the Conventions...this would be why no one knows anything about their specific Force Power sets.

As for lightsaber specialization, I'll I can go off of is the information they've given before. They have specifically stated that certain Advanced Classes are locked into what they can use because of how their powers work. Like a Sith Juggernaut (Tank) uses a single blade saber so his off-hand is free to use force powers, this is similar to how the Jedi Wizard will cast heals while holding a single saber. Like the Jedi in the source material, not everyone can walk around duel wielding sabers or using double-bladed sabers. Both required specific training to master and Bioware has decided to reflect that kind of training in the Advanced classes.

On a side note: The current build at gamescom supports all classes but Jedi Knight/Consular and reports are saying thus far that it is a huge graphical update from the build shown at E3...and its supposedly running on DX11.

_________________

What he said lol

Playable at PAX. I didn't find it particularly impressive but it wasn't bad either.

Jedi Wizard? What a terrible class name...