So, today I bought the series on a whim. I've heard about it before here and I've seen the movie Serenity and I figured what the hell.

I've watched 5 episodes so far-- and I love it! It's entertaining and clever, right from the beginning. Compare to say... Star Trek: The Next Generation,where the first few episodes are awkward at best.

So here's my question: how the hell did this get cancelled so quickly? I'm very sad that I only have 10 or so episodes left to watch .

*edit* another thought: This show grabbed me immediately from the beginning, while Farscape took me most of the first season. So again I wonder... how did this one get the can while Farscape lasted 10ish seasons?

Apparently the network treated the show like shit. They ran the series out of order, didn't promote it, and thought of it as filler at best. So yeah...

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Yep. They hated the pilot, they forced them to show 'Train Job' as the first show. They didn't want a rag tag team of losers, they wanted Space Heros!!! so that also pissed them off (FOX).

The time slot they were in was constantly bumped due to sports, and IIRC they also constantly moved it.

Essentially they did everything one would do to kill a show.

Then the cherry on top was that other networks saw what a gem this show was. Sci-fi channel BEGGED for it. FOX said, 'Nah. I mean we killed it, but we don't want you making cash off it'.

And after it was canceled it got it's own movie 'Serenity'. Which made fans want it back even more, but for Whedon and crew, that was more like their goodbye piece and they knew it, and were glad to have it.

I hate getting people into Firefly because there's only 13 episodes, and there will never be any more.

PS: There's a comic book of what happens between the end of Firefly and Serenity. It's kinda important as it explains why 2 of the characters are not on the ship at that time.

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The movie always feels more like they are starting something then ending something to me. Feels like they are about to start a rebellion by exposing what they found.

I just got into Firefly too a days ago, just three EPs in and I'm already sad that it it will end in 10.

Yea, the show was brilliant but they treated it terribly. Damn shame, too.

Nope.

SPOILERS AHEAD, TOO MUCH FOR THE TAG. YE ARE WARNED!


That already happened, Browncoats lost. It's supposed to be very, very Civil War-ish...with the South being more folksy backwater people who just want to be left alone. Alliance (according to Joss, and this is almost a direct quote IIRC) is the shiny beautiful perfect thing. The gorgeous apple, with a rotten wormy core. It doesn't mean the Alliance is all bad, just that there are some *very* bad things about it...like what they did to River. Shit like that is known, and yet...it's ignored. Not ignored so much as a 'well what can we do?'. What you don't seen in the movie is that River Tam's parents are told through Simon what the fuck is going on. And they're happy to sacrifice River...to keep what they have. Partially you get the idea they can't completely believe it. And what they do know...they don't want to see. They don't want Simon to throw away what HE has either. And when he decides to, his father essentially disowns them both. It's really sad shit in a side story on one of the episodes (though not really a spoiler, it's not ever a main plot point).

But the Alliance has lots of good things and there's bad things about the backwater planets. Heart of Gold is about a planet essentially run by one rich guy who uses and abuses people on it like it's his personal fiefdom. Shit like that can go on there, where it wouldn't be tolerated on a world where the Alliance has a bigger presence. The Alliance has better educational facilities, medical facilities. The backwater people sometimes issue their own brand of justice, like burning witches.

Anyhoo, that war was fought at a great cost, and ultimately lost. And where the war was lost (though it wasn't the last battle, it was a deciding factor) was the Battle of Serenity Valley, hence the ship name. Mal's squad and others held their position, and then were sacrificed by their own people. The position was sacrificed and they were told to surrender on whatever terms they could get. Browncoats *could* have held it, and won it, but it was a tactical decision. It's also a big turning point in Mal's life, as shown in the series.

So no, that war won't be fought again. People lost too much, there's no resources for it blah blah blah. Inara at one point in Serenity alludes to Mal fighting a war, and he's incredulous, because the war really is and has been over for him and Zoe. The Alliance might worry about it, but the Browncoats know they're done and fucked. But they will never totally give into the Alliance. That's why he and Zoe have Serenity, it's their piece of something where they can operate and be left alone to live as they please.

Mostly

However what the Tam's information DOES do is a political bomb. It won't start a war, but it might topple the government. The Operative points out though that the govt. won't fall that easily. It's a huge blow, but it's not a death blow. And that they might still come after the Tams. That's important only in the fact that the Tams will have to stay on Serenity for now and will have to keep looking over their shoulders forever probably.

It also points out that the current govt. is strong enough to even survive this. I mean these people killed an entire WORLD. They created Reavers, which have been running horrific raids on the outer planets for years, as well as pirating spacers...and are a horror show. And after killing an entire world, a world that had been terraformed and is now either useless or abandoned because they can't explain all the dead (which while they've made it an easier process, it still costs a fuckload of money and labor)...they buried it.

So the point for them to get the information out was simply to prevent it from ever happening again. Because they would have done it again. And hopefully expose and excise some of the other rot at the core of the apple that people aren't aware of.

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You posted a whole lot of obvious. None of which explains away one of the alliance's most powerful secret agents turning on them when he sees what they did, we are talking about a guy who they pay to kill people and to keep things secret flipping on them.

The Alliance's control of the outer planets is tenuous at best with most of the people living in the verse under their control only seeing them every 1-2 weeks when a patrol ship comes through to make sure no one is causing trouble. Mal and Zoe aren't the only old brown coats still around. It really wouldn't take much to start a new rebellion with parts of the military turning on itself, the huge distraction of the reavers coming to light (most of the military didn't believe in them and they lost a huge part of their fleet fighting them), the old brown coats given a new call to arms (most of them are just itching for another chance to fight the alliance).

Obviously it was an ending point however the story itself was setup in such a way that they could make sequels if it made enough money (which it didn't). How would you picture a sequel going taking into account everything that happened in the movie? I just don't see them being able to go back to doing random jobs in backwater towns.

Steven Brust wrote a Firefly novel, released online.

http://dreamcafe.com/firefly.html

I just found about it and haven't had time to read it yet so can't say if it is any good or not.

I thought it was obvious why the Operative flipped. Remember he 'kills and never asks why'. He explains to Mal at one point what his goals are...a world without sin. Something he, as a murderer, cannot be a part of. But he believes everything he does is for the greater good. Mal shows him what a world without sin would look like, and what the 'greater good' costs. It's a *dead* world.

The Operative has done what he knows to be terrible things, things which completely damn him. And the ends haven't justified the means. And he's not turning against the Alliance, he's simply walking away. There's actually a slightly longer ending there which was cut, where the Operative asks Mal how you keep going when you've lost everything. Mal is terse with him, Operative says his shit, and as he walks away Mal says under his breath, 'What a whiner'. I can see why they cut that, but I think it shows more of the Operative's character. Without a purpose, he's nothing, and he has no new purpose.

Doesn't mean all their secret agents suddenly will turn. Doesn't mean all the people will either. The woman giving the report on what happened even justifies it, even as she's seen what it did. "We meant it for the best..." Even the Operative knows that while eventually the govt. might fall due to this it won't happen overnight, if at all. It's not even going to generate enough heat to guarantee the Tams' safety.

And if you've watched the series you'd realize Alliance control isn't so weak. Yes on the outer moons where the Serenity does a lot of work, their presence isn't as obvious...but even then they're there. Train Job has cars full of Alliance soliders. During the series they visit 'core' worlds (basically imagine big cities) which are the heart of the Alliance.

The analogy would be simply, the core worlds are the big 'cities'. The outer moons are the back wood jerk water towns. Sometimes they're run by corrupt officials and the 'federal' govt. isn't directly there...but the small town sheriff is. However, fuck around too much and the federal govt. will show up and step in. Same idea. Recently on the news there was an outcry over cops stealing shit from motorists in a small town in Texas, no charges filed but property was 'seized' all the time, including one old lady's life savings. Shit like that happens in our country unfortunately, and it's getting fixed now which is why we're hearing about it...but it went on a long time. It's probably still going on or other shit like it in various small towns. Doesn't mean that the United States has a tenious hold still on the south. ;D

As far as most of the browncoats itching for another fight, they're not. It's very similar to the South getting their asses completely kicked at the end.; Even if they wanted to, there's no resources for it. They were effectively smashed. Whedon came up with the show's concept after reading 'Killer Angels' and basically wanted to show people who were on the losing side of a conflict, in a pioneer-type society that had to live in the society they had fought against.

Interestingly both in the series and in the movie, Alliance people tend to assume Browncoats are still fighting the war, or want to. The Operative even makes reference to this about understanding how Mal must feel about the Alliance, and he says 'No, you really don't.' I personally think it's obvious they know it's a war that couldn't be won, for various reasons, but they simply want to be left alone to do their thing. Which essentially was what the war was about.

And yes, in a sequel I completely see them going back to doing jobs. That's what they do, and it's how they eat. At the end everything was going back to a state of balance on the ship. Zoe's speech is pretty much about herself rather than the ship. Kaylee and Simon are now together. Jayne is...Jayne. And it's hardly the first time he's had problems with the Capt. or crew so there won't be issues there. And Inara and Mal...who knows. Mal hates what she does for a living, he doesn't respect it, but he respects her and seems to be in love with her. Inara left when she realized she had feelings for him (she got jealous over something he did). So...who knows.

They had resolved their conflict with another set of agents before this (the Hands of Blue), and now the Operative. The Tams issues were always a side plot (sometimes direct plot). I doubt they'll be left alone. In a sequel I'd expect to see they're still keeping low, either with the govt. officially after them, though not so resource intensive as they have nothing super secret to keep hidden, or personal vendetta by one or more politicians who are very powerful.

I wouldn't *mind* seeing another civil war mind you. I just don't think it's realistic within the storylines/universe. I also wouldn't mind seeing major instability in the central govt. leading to a better situation. But not holding my breath there.

All opinions though, and if you liked the movie, you really have to see the series, a lot more becomes clear. I saw the movie first then the series myself.

Frankly I'd just be happy as could be for ANY sequel...any at all. Though I'm sad that they killed off some people.

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I watched the series when it was still playing on fox and have seen it many many times since then. I just see the story going a different direction.

Mal would love to just be left alone as would most of the people on the border worlds, that was the whole reason for the first war. The problem is he isn't just a common criminal to the alliance anymore. They will be after him with a vengeance and Mal isn't the type of guy to just hide in a hole for the rest of his life.

I'm not implying a civil war would spring up overnight just that the potential is there for a new large scale conflict. There were already a lot of people that hated the alliance just for being in control, imagine how they would react after hearing about Miranda. Emotion related to events like that can have a powerful affect on people, remember how many people reacted to 9/11 by enlisting? Imagine how people would have reacted if the 9/11 conspiracy theorists were right(they aren't obviously just bear with the analogy) and someone came out with proof that the government was behind it. Would there have been a new civil war that day? No, but there would have been riots and maybe more. I just have trouble believing people living on the border planets would be timid about learning their government gassed a planet full of people and accidentally created the reavers which have been attacking them in ever increasing numbers.

Ah cool beans, so we just see it going different ways and see some things differently. I wouldn't be adverse to you being right, I'd actually prefer it go that way because I'd like to see the Browncoats win...but I'm biased because I've seen the Browncoats through Mal & Zoe's eyes.

Regardless, I think there's plenty audience for a sequel, and I'm sad there's not one in the works.

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More spoilers.

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. The Operative never "flipped." He just knew when the battle was lost. There was no point in fighting or killing when the damage was already done and there was little else that Mal and crew could do to make it worse.

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I'd agree that's a possible interpretation except that in his discussion with Mal he says 'They know I'm no longer their man'. He's flipped. His whole reason for doing what he did, he lays out for Mal in their video conversation ('if your quarry goes to ground leave no ground for them to go to' or whatever). That convo lays out what he truly believes in. That belief is shattered.

If you have the extended edition dvd or special or whatever there's also the full ending with the Operative which was cut. It shows a lot more about how he's lost his faith and has nothing. That's why his 'There is nothing left to see' makes sense. In that cut scene he asks Mal how he went on after losing everything he believed in (in the war). Mal's loss of faith (in god) in the Battle of Serenity is very similar to the Operative's loss of belief now.

Except it's pretty clear Mal thinks he's a pussy.

Anyhoo I'd bet it's probably more obvious to me that he's flipped cause I've seen the cut scenes and listened to the commentary which can taint it. I can't recall if I thought that originally...but I think I did.

THe most interesting thing in the commentary, just as an aside, is that when Mal and Zoe are talking about Serenity (but really about Zoe)...apparently the actor who plays Mal (who's not stupid about that shit) never realized it was also about Zoe until after he saw the film. Just kinda funny how even those involved can miss stuff like that.

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Well, that does explain that statement a little more. Without context, I presumed it meant they knew he hadn't followed through or didn't intend to follow through with killing Serenity's crew. I've not seen any commentaries or extended stuff.

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I thought it was pretty clear the guy went rogue. I haven't seen any extended cuts of commentaries. I wouldn't say flipped though. It's not like there are two sides and he decided to join the other one. More like, everything he believed in was a lie and he finally realized it. So he has to walk away.

He was never going to be able to return to the alliance after not just letting Serenity go but helping patch her up. Mal was never going to like or have any respect for the guy after all the people he killed trying to get to them, that last line is just solidifying that they will never have anything resembling a friendly relationship in Mal's mind despite any aid rendered.

"I start fighting a war, I guarantee you'll see something new"

Foreshadowing

"They will try again , maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they will swing back to the belief that they can make people...better and I do not hold to that, so no more running. I aim to misbehave."

People love that last bit (it is a good line) but always quote it out of context as if it were just random charming skulduggery on Mal's part. No, it is a declaration of war.

Personally I see Serenity as "A New Hope" for the 21st century. Of course they would be out numbered and out gunned, the ride wouldn't be any fun if it was a fair fight. I doubt we will ever see where the story would have really gone but it is fun to imagine.

To y'all,

Watch the [pilot episode again. Notice in the battle of Serenity Valley that Mal kisses a cross. I am thinking that at this point he still had Faith. After losing the battle of Serenity Valley we know he lost his faith. I know, it seems kind of redundant to say it, but it was something that I noticed for the first time just the other day (I guess this is what happens when you actually watch TV instead of just having it on in the back ground while powa levelin' and gettin ph@t lewtz).

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Either that or the "There are no atheists in a foxhole" thing. When shit be gettin' real, you figure it can't hurt.

As Fribur joins the army of people asking this question.

It's almost like a rite of passage on the internet, asking that question.

No, Mal loses his faith at the battle of Serenity and not just in god.

Joss Whedon, the writer and creator of Firefly is also an atheist. I note that only because Mal isn't supposed to be a 'Aww I didn't get my pony FUCK YOU GOD' atheist, but rather someone who lost his belief through reality. Mal addresses this MANY times over the course of the series and in the movie. In the movie he refers to belief as waiting for a train that don't come.

Whedon is good writer when it comes to dealing with belief though. He's clearly not an asshole atheist mocking belief through his writing or anything like that.

Book struggles with his belief over the course of the show (never doubting it, merely how to live it correctly). It would be more correct I think to say that Book doubts HIMSELF more than he does his faith/beliefs. But it's damn good writing.

Anyhoo just to clarify that issue, Mal at the Battle of Serenity believed in both god, and in the people he was fighting for, and by that I mean the bigger picture. After, he doesn't believe in god, nor does he believe in authority beyond 'his people'. He believes in those who were on the ground fighting with him (Zoe, etc), but the people who just surrendered them? Hell no. But he also doesn't believe his choices were wrong either, he believes in the ideals he was fighting for...and that's referenced in the series as well.

Mal has a lot of beliefs that are obvious in the course of the series. One of them is that Inara's job is a wrong thing. Not that *she* is wrong, but that her profession is a wrong thing.

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Farscape was a great original show that those fuckers canceled, too.

I guess there's too much money in producing "Crocodile 7" or Stargate: The Jeffersons than making good original work. It's sad, because Sci-Fi really doesn't understand what building a brand is all about. Even if they aren't making 40% profit margins on Farscape or Firefly, if it's critically acclaimed, you /gasp/ build a brand that will influence people, and, eventually, you figure out how to make better content that both hits a critical mass of viewers, is profitable and fits your message.

Joxur do you remember what came right after Farscape got cancelled too?

Wasn't it like Tremors the series? =x

Compared to Firefly though, I now put things in Perspective and Farscape was actually very fortunate to run for 4 seasons and to be able to wrap up the story even after the SciFi channel had decided they were going to leave us hanging with that horrendous cliff hanger. And I mean, I would have loved a 24 episode season, but, at least the story got wrapped up. That show is still my favorite show of all time. Glad to see the story keeps going on in comics. =[

Firefly was killed by Fox, not SciFi. SciFi later showed all the episodes.

I know~ Was talking about Farscape.

Scifi got a contract to play them a few times before Serenity came out in theaters. They don't have any rights to them beyond that.

I think scifi offered to buy firefly at one point but fox didn't want anyone else taking it and making money. When they kill a show they want it dead.

At the 2004 Comicon I remember Joss saying something about how he tried to get SciFi to pick up Firefly but they didn't want it. Something about it not being SciFi enough for them. Later on, when Serenity was comming out, SciFi picked it up. But only after they had a chance to pull their heads out of their asses and see that there are Firefly/Joss Whedon fans that would eat this up. OF course by then, it was too late for the series.

The kid in me would love to have seen the show do better and go on for a few seasons, but the adult in me is kind of glad that the show and then movie ended with the fans wanting more as opposed to playing it out to the point of being glad that it is over.

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You know, it wouldn't be a bad idea for them to start an entirely new series based in the Serenity/Firefly universe.

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Fine, but bring back Mal and Zoe. Love those actors.

edit And Jayne!

Agreed. Those three were kind of the core of the show anyways. Oh, and the little hottie engineer, she needs to come back too.

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Kaylee was definitely hot in a goofy kind a of way.

Oh, God! I can't know that!

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I always found that little exchange highly amusing considering how he met Kaylee (under his old mechanic).

Joss had the actress that played Kaylee put on weight for the role. In the movie she is closer to her prefirefly weight but still not where she was before. For the record I liked the first Kaylee best.

The first Kaylee? There was another one?

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I meant the firefly version over the serenity version. Its the same actress but in Serenity she looks more like a model then a mechanic.

Joss Whedon made the actress who plays Kaylee gain 20 pounds before she would get the role. She lost the weight again, and he didn't make her regain it to be in the movie. That's why she looks different.

And from what Whedon said, SciFi wanted the rights to the show back when it could still survive, and FOX refused. Their reasoning was that they might decide to revive it...even while telling others they had no intentions of doing so. The Sci-Fi channel fought hard to get it too. =\

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The guy who played Mal is starring in that new "Castle" series this season. Jayne is Casey on "Chuck." You will have to wait!

Fuck Chuck, that show sucks.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Heh, I kind of like it. I waited a long time to watch it because it has such a horrible premise, but I caught an episode at a friend's house and it sort of grew on me. The characters make me laugh.

I've seen Chuck a couple of times. I liked it, but not enough to set aside time to watch it or anything. The guy who played Jayne is a fantastic actor and honestly he seems SO much better than the other people in that series.

Castle...IDK, I'll give it a watch. Sounds very Murder She Wrote.

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Man, I really came in late to this show, but thanks to the "Sequel" thread I got turned onto it and watched the whole thing along with Serenity. What a great show and it sucks that it got cancelled. I'm surprised Fox wouldn't sell it to Sci-Fi, they are usually quick to grab a profit...there must have been some bad blood somewhere that they were mad about.

I'm just glad I got to witness the amazingness that was Jayne attempting to trade his favourite gun for Mal's wife

Christina Hendricks looks amazing in that episode.

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