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 Post subject: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:06 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:08 PM 
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Haha the Rakata!!!!! I love this game already and it looks like the main boss is a Rakata as well! Anyone who played KOTOR will know who they are that's for sure :)

Yeah, I think this game's raid content will be a blast to play if it's story driven (first run thru at least)...one good thing BioWare has done...it does feel like their other RPG games. When I watch these videos, it feels like Star Wars: TOR was an offline game to me. I know they are not showing all the walking around, finding players to group, but if I did not know it was an MMO, I would never know the difference....and I like that a lot.

The raid zone looked cool and I like how the boss did not just attack the tank all the time. I know MMO's have been setup with a tank holding agro, but it's dumb to think a monster or whatever would ONLY attack on person, and not others. I like how the boss attacks, and it might make things more of a challenge too.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:45 PM 
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I find it interesting in the raid composition that they use 2 melee tanks (the Juggernaut and the Assassin), because a BH Powertech ranged tank seems like it would be useful for a fight like that...especially at the point where the boss is firing rockets. If a ranged tank was standing at range from the boss but in line of sight with the healers behind the (now destroyed) gun towers, it would be easier to keep heals on the tank.

The Juggernaut is the obvious choice for the melee tank, as the Assassin (who isn't tank spec'd) is nothing more than a Rogue in it's DPS spec.

Anyway....enough of that. I'm glad to see high end stuff we don't have access to in Beta.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:18 AM 
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Looks of good HD cam video from PAX at Darth Hater.

http://darthhater.com/

Huttball looks really fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:56 PM 
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The raid zone looked cool and I like how the boss did not just attack the tank all the time. I know MMO's have been setup with a tank holding agro, but it's dumb to think a monster or whatever would ONLY attack on person, and not others. I like how the boss attacks, and it might make things more of a challenge too.


I dunno, I wasn't quite as impressed by the footage. Granted it's one boss, but it just didn't blow me away.

Rewind to ~6 years ago when Onyxia footage was first released. Compared to the bosses we'd been fighting in EQ where every boss stood in a corner with the tank and just parked there for 6 minutes, Onyxia was just amazing. Seeing a dragon act like a dragon, fly around, breathe on the room, etc...all very exciting and really a huge step up.

Then I look at this and it's nothing I haven't seen in a raid in WoW since fights in Vanilla. The narrator tried his best to make it sound really awesome, but...ok, a ground targetted thing you have to move out of. An AoE to line-of-sight. One raid member getting targetted and having to move away from the rest.

I dunno. Not to knock it or anything, but it just seemed like a lot of the same old stuff. Perhaps it's just the MMO model reaching the limit of the mechanics it can offer, I dunno.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:39 PM 
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Well it's the first boss, and I would say a mini-boss at that. We have not see the others, and then the final boss too. But you might have a point tho, Bovinity. Maybe this game won't have much in terms of new mechanics to offer exp MMO players.

I'm not playing this game for awesome new boss fights myself. I'm playing for the story driven content :)


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:58 PM 
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I'm pretty underwhelmed as well. Healer/tank/dps. Yay. Random targeted abilities. Stand here. Move there. Yay.

Bioware's dialogue trees are feeling more and more like a high school dating sim game. Rotate the wheel to see who will like you more and get to hear some more bad voice acting. Great "story-driven" content.

This is looking more and more like Rift 2.0. Plenty of refinement of existing MMORPG mechanics for the easily amused to chomp up, but developers continue to refuse to take advantage of some of the excellent ideas that have been postulated since WoW's release. It's another no-risk venture on Bioware's part, and the sad part is it will probably work.

I'm probably a little crankier about Bioware in general right now. I finally finished DA2. What an abomination compared to Origins.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:30 PM 
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I'm playing thru DA: Origins right now and love the game. Reminds me of KOTOR a lot, which is a very good thing. I hear a lot of neg feedback about DA2, but I will play it no matter what.

Also, don't forget about Mass Effect...those games are awesome and part 3 will be epic I'm thinking. I don't see any "bad" voice acting in Star Wars: TOR so far, Venen. Each their own I guess

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It's another no-risk venture on Bioware's part, and the sad part is it will probably work.


I don't think any of us have seen enough of the game just yet to make these statements...and BioWare or I should say EA is a business and want to have a large user base...not just hard core gamers to play their game. So, they will go with "no-risk" like most companies would. I don't think EA would be happy with a niche market MMO game. Sounds like you are jaded man. Like a lot of Lanys folks are too ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:21 PM 
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Don't worry, I think Venen had the complete opposite reaction to Starcraft 2, despite similarities in approach by both companies.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:29 PM 
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Evilundead Afterlife wrote:
I don't think any of us have seen enough of the game just yet to make these statements...


Oh God...NDA prevents me from saying more on that.

As for the raid mechanics (shown in the video), there really isn't anything that we haven't seen in the past 7 years of WoW. We all need to take a step back and realize, on a boss by boss comparison, there are A LOT of raid mechanics...well into the hundreds of different abilities and such. I think the challenge isn't to make new and interesting mechanics, I think the challenge is to redefine/experiment with different mechanics combinations. SWTOR isn't a lateral move from current WoW end-game raiding, meaning that entry level SWTOR raiding is going to as complex as current WoW raiding. Anyone who thinks it should be is jaded.

As for the 'voice acting' being bad and the dialogue options being a glorified dating simulator. In my time in beta (well over 9 months), I can say that none of the voice acting is bad. You'll probably end up laughing at the number of Sith Empire quest NPCs who have evil British accents, but other then that I think it's good. When it comes to the dating simulator element (Companion Affection), that isn't entirely true either. Your companions are great and your interactions with them do change the way you play. As an example, if your goal in the game is to pick every dark side option in conversations you're going to lose affection with come companions and gain affection with others. So if you want to make it into "Which companion can I get to like me the best" you have to sacrifice affection of others.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:57 PM 
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I don't mind being called jaded if it means I expect more and that's a natural consequence of the attitude, or vice versa. I fail to see why we shouldn't demand more as gamers. I understand there will always be many, many gamers who are fully satisfied with something that doesn't even REMOTELY stimulate the cerebral cortex, but I feel even the dumbest gamer can benefit from games becoming more - not less - complex. The gradual shift in more complex dynamics would scoot them along and we could throw them some bones here and there. As complex as bleeding edge WoW? Maybe that not, but certainly starting out with an endgame heroic 25 WOTLK level at the least. People are ready for that.

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I think the challenge isn't to make new and interesting mechanics, I think the challenge is to redefine/experiment with different mechanics combinations.


By that logic, if we were to go back in time and invent the initial mechanics from scratch while simultaneously implementing those refinements, it would be LESS challenging than simply implementing the refinements themselves? That wouldn't make much sense =p It's almost always harder to create or invent something from scratch, especially if it has merit. The less you have to go on, the harder it is. The only exception to this is when someone takes extreme steps to redefine something to the point of nearly creating something new(and in some cases, it's simply a new idea entirely - something we're clearly not seeing with SWTOR or Rift). However, pound for pound, it's more work rather than a difficulty in coming up with ideas.

As for the voice acting, I was unaware Bioware had any voice actors that WEREN'T British. Apparently that makes them sound smarter or more clever. Cool.

They definitely got sloppier with the VOs in DA2. It's not terrible, but there's a lot of work to be done. Anyone notice how corny the scenes where people are supposed to be sad are? There's no crying when the characters are shown sobbing or serious emotion when you'd expect it.

As for the relationship scheme, it's been like that since at least ME1. You can't simply pick the evil lines or good lines and expect everything to line up accordingly. That's a good thing, but it still feels simulated on the whole. Too many decisions lead to pointless trivialities in character relationships, or no changes at all. There are so many times when I simply cannot give enough of a damn about EXACTLY how I want to respond when random_townsfolk__00 lost their treasured family heirloom in the forest and a big 6-option dialogue tree flies into my face as if I'm facing a crucial decision point of moral truth. Insert "Oh mah gawd, I just killed a thief and now I'm given the option of sparing his life!" Insert "Oh mah gawd, 2 powerful factions are at war and I must choose a side! Will it be the templars or the mages?!?!?!" Insert "Oh mah gawd, if I choose to open the evil tome and find its secrets I will become more powerful, BUT AT WHAT PRICE?!?!?!?". After a few Bioware games, none of these events are particularly appealing or exciting, and it gets a tad old when they use the exact same schemes time and time again.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:22 AM 
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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:29 AM 
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Venen wrote:
I don't mind being called jaded if it means I expect more and that's a natural consequence of the attitude, or vice versa. I fail to see why we shouldn't demand more as gamers. I understand there will always be many, many gamers who are fully satisfied with something that doesn't even REMOTELY stimulate the cerebral cortex, but I feel even the dumbest gamer can benefit from games becoming more - not less - complex. The gradual shift in more complex dynamics would scoot them along and we could throw them some bones here and there. As complex as bleeding edge WoW? Maybe that not, but certainly starting out with an endgame heroic 25 WOTLK level at the least. People are ready for that.

Quote:
I think the challenge isn't to make new and interesting mechanics, I think the challenge is to redefine/experiment with different mechanics combinations.


By that logic, if we were to go back in time and invent the initial mechanics from scratch while simultaneously implementing those refinements, it would be LESS challenging than simply implementing the refinements themselves? That wouldn't make much sense =p It's almost always harder to create or invent something from scratch, especially if it has merit. The less you have to go on, the harder it is. The only exception to this is when someone takes extreme steps to redefine something to the point of nearly creating something new(and in some cases, it's simply a new idea entirely - something we're clearly not seeing with SWTOR or Rift). However, pound for pound, it's more work rather than a difficulty in coming up with ideas.

As for the voice acting, I was unaware Bioware had any voice actors that WEREN'T British. Apparently that makes them sound smarter or more clever. Cool.

They definitely got sloppier with the VOs in DA2. It's not terrible, but there's a lot of work to be done. Anyone notice how corny the scenes where people are supposed to be sad are? There's no crying when the characters are shown sobbing or serious emotion when you'd expect it.

As for the relationship scheme, it's been like that since at least ME1. You can't simply pick the evil lines or good lines and expect everything to line up accordingly. That's a good thing, but it still feels simulated on the whole. Too many decisions lead to pointless trivialities in character relationships, or no changes at all. There are so many times when I simply cannot give enough of a damn about EXACTLY how I want to respond when random_townsfolk__00 lost their treasured family heirloom in the forest and a big 6-option dialogue tree flies into my face as if I'm facing a crucial decision point of moral truth. Insert "Oh mah gawd, I just killed a thief and now I'm given the option of sparing his life!" Insert "Oh mah gawd, 2 powerful factions are at war and I must choose a side! Will it be the templars or the mages?!?!?!" Insert "Oh mah gawd, if I choose to open the evil tome and find its secrets I will become more powerful, BUT AT WHAT PRICE?!?!?!?". After a few Bioware games, none of these events are particularly appealing or exciting, and it gets a tad old when they use the exact same schemes time and time again.



Then don't play, sit back and keep enjoying your "stimulating" world of warcraft game. Myself however, after playing old republic for the weekend beta can't wait for it to be released. After playing it over the weekend made everything else feel stale when I tried to play them after.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:51 AM 
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WTB beta. How come everyone else has betas?!?! /cry


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:00 AM 
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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:43 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
WTB beta. How come everyone else has betas?!?! /cry

yeah no shit... and it's always the same people too!


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:51 PM 
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Then don't play, sit back and keep enjoying your "stimulating" world of warcraft game. Myself however, after playing old republic for the weekend beta can't wait for it to be released. After playing it over the weekend made everything else feel stale when I tried to play them after.


Reading comprehension(or at the very least, listening) should be a prerequisite for any Bioware game. I haven't played WoW for a year and a half. In all honesty, in general it hasn't been very enjoyable since BC. The only thing that kept it going for me was the PVP aspect, something I very much doubt is present in SWTOR.

"If you don't like it, then don't play it!" isn't the most convincing argument in the world. Should be obvious, but I'll point it out anyway. Without criticism, even for the sake of criticism itself(though I'd settle with better games), we'd be merrily playing Daikatana. If I don't like playing the awesomeness that was Superman 64, no, I won't play it, but it also won't stop me from illuminating the finer points of precisely why the game sucked ass. If for no other reason, stupid people need to be given a heads up from time to time about questions of their poor taste. Transformers: Dark Side of the Moon grossed over a billion worldwide. Unfortunately, sometimes there is an accounting for taste when a movie or game's individual attributes showcase a clear lack of creative talent. Not watching it because I don't like it isn't really what's at stake there so much as the question of whether we're going to be further doomed to horrible movies and games in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:43 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:53 PM 
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Yes Venen, your feedback here will change the very face of gaming for all time.

Or it could just be a waste of time.

Another vote for "Don't like it, don't play it" from me.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:30 PM 
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Well, I can't fault the guy for his perspective on it and I do agree for the most part.

I'll also agree that venting here is pretty much gonna go nowhere though, so I'll refrain. =)


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:40 PM 
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Changing anything isn't quite the goal here, if you read the post(though in other forums/mediums I partake in, that may be the case). Telling you you're stupid for liking stupid products is mostly it. The fact that such a simple statement went over your head reaffirms my belief in both. Keep drinking their koolaid trailers and whoring yourself for beta keys, I'm not going to stop you 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:53 PM 
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Meant for Crowde, not Bov. But you can whore yourself too, sir =p


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:02 PM 
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To each their own.

I don't work in "if we could go back in time" scenarios. My logic is based on the fact that WoW has hundreds of different raid mechanics and for new studios/development teams to come up with "completely new" mechanics in every new game is an unrealistic expectation this late in the genre. I will say new mechanics are always a pleasant surprise, especially when first learning an encounter (why is Firefighter coming to mind right now?).

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:47 PM 
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I got access to a beta account over the weekend and got a Jedi Knight to level 10 and just briefly got to try the Sentinel sub-class; it was enjoyable experience. Really looking forward to the release version; this will be only the 4th MMO I've bought in 12+ years (I'm ashamed to admit that DAoC was the 2nd).

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:57 PM 
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Venen wrote:
Changing anything isn't quite the goal here, if you read the post(though in other forums/mediums I partake in, that may be the case). Telling you you're stupid for liking stupid products is mostly it. The fact that such a simple statement went over your head reaffirms my belief in both. Keep drinking their koolaid trailers and whoring yourself for beta keys, I'm not going to stop you 8)


Ya know, I'd actually have sided with you (in principle, if not in content) had you been making an informative statement in the hope that like-minded folks would relate and possibly avoid something they'd potentially have wasted money on.

But that's not the point. You're simply trolling. While people are biting, you're still not actually providing ANYTHING of substance in your incoherent rambling, not even entertainment value. If you're not out to influence opinion, take a page from Givin's book, call them asskrackles, and move the fuck on after an additional potshot or two at the fanboi replies.

You're basically a poor man's skycrasher, minus the funny and a point.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:21 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:26 PM 
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It's pretty awesome that Venen needs to spend 50 paragraphs explaining why he doesn't like the game based on a handful of videos. What's the reason? It looks and plays like a MMORPG? Good reason, eh? Never mind that every single ounce of feedback has been positive. Venen has to be the devil's advocate for all 14 of us who are showing interest in the game. I hate bitches who play devil's advocate just to be different.

This almost reminds me of that one buffoon who sees a list of 100 of the best Sci-Fi/Fantasy books (or series) and has to pick the most popular of the bunch to point out how shitty it is. All we're missing is someone telling us Leonardo DiCaprio is a terrible actor. That was the cool thing to do at one time, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:37 PM 
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Probably ought to go in the other thread, but I genuinely had no concept of how popular those books were, other than a friend told me I should read them a few years back, when I read the first two in the series, which I was sufficiently bored by. But I guess it doesn't matter, since you've made up your mind that I don't like The Thing You Like because it's popular, as I apparently have created a reputation of doing so by championing such Too Indie For You musical acts like Kanye West.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:51 PM 
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Nevertheless, in a list of 100, you picked the most mainstream and bashed it with absolutely zero valid arguments. It is "so very bad" and "generic fiction," yet I challenge you to point out what is generic about it. A guy loses his hand? That happens in a bunch of fantasy fiction, I suppose. It has dragons? That's pretty generic. It has a dwarf? Yup, more typical fantasy drivel.

Look at the list again. I know without a shadow of a doubt that the only reason you bashed the series, even if you genuinely think it's pure shit (which would be impossible, if you ever read A Storm of Swords), was because it was popular and you bashing it would get a reaction. It's not even my favorite fantasy series, so I am not defending it because I am a fanboi. But I know shit when I read shit, and it certainly isn't shit. The Sword of Truth books, on the other hand, definitely became shit after the first few books.

And now back to Star Wars...


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:59 PM 
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Hey, at least he didn't attempt to bash Philip K. Dick or Heinlein, yeah?


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:06 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:32 PM 
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I really just skimmed at the list in a few seconds, looking for names I recognized. Had this apparently incredibly popular series been buried in the 30s among other stuff I've never read, I probably wouldn't even have noticed it.

I don't know how to accurately state that I disliked the two books I read other than to say that they were just so goddamn boring and written in the mundane language of close to every other fantasy book I've ever read, and obviously pandering to the crowd that got burned on the Jordan books (which were also exceptionally bad after a few, for many of the same reasons). At least the TV show had tits in between the long stretches of generic action sequences and political intrigue I failed to give a shit about.

I could say many of the same things about Tolkien, but I think it's pretty obvious that they have to put that series at #1.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:52 PM 
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Ya know, I'd actually have sided with you (in principle, if not in content) had you been making an informative statement in the hope that like-minded folks would relate and possibly avoid something they'd potentially have wasted money on.


Well, if you agree with me in principle for coherent reasons so much the better, I could care less if you side with me. I'd take an angry but genuine resentment of my opinion backed by facts over a blabbering fanboi on my side. Thus, I prefer my method because if people are willing to disagree due to the way in which the message is presented rather than the content, I have shown their true faces and can cast them as irrelevant.

Quote:
To each their own.

I don't work in "if we could go back in time" scenarios. My logic is based on the fact that WoW has hundreds of different raid mechanics and for new studios/development teams to come up with "completely new" mechanics in every new game is an unrealistic expectation this late in the genre. I will say new mechanics are always a pleasant surprise, especially when first learning an encounter (why is Firefighter coming to mind right now?).


Firefighter was definitely good times. I wouldn't expect brand new mechanics from every MMORPG, my issue is just that we haven't seen many new implementations of suggested mechanics because devs can get away with it. WoW is still the closest thing I've seen to improving/innovating on EQ or UO's basic MMORPG prescription. My point with "going back in time" was just a suggestion that if redefining something requires X, then creation has the potential to require both X and Y. You simply have less to go on when you're starting with a new idea from scratch, and you suggested that refinement was more challenging. That's why I disagree.

Quick question for Argrax: Did you play much PVP in DAOC? Honestly the realm v realm stuff was some of the best PVP content that would be seen in years after. It's just the PVE that was dogshit. It saddens my heart to see someone diss DAOC =p For its time, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:05 PM 
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Hoooooly shit, that video is amazing. I never did the WoW thing, in fact I just started gaming a bit (sup oldskool EQ) after a five or six year hiatus. I can't speak to the mechanics of SW:TOR or whatever, but goddamn things have come a long way visually. WTB beta invite... plus a box that'll run this thing :P


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:23 PM 
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Yeah I just watched it for the first time and that video is pretty cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:02 AM 
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Venen wrote:
Quick question for Argrax: Did you play much PVP in DAOC? Honestly the realm v realm stuff was some of the best PVP content that would be seen in years after. It's just the PVE that was dogshit. It saddens my heart to see someone diss DAOC =p For its time, of course.

I didn't play DAoC beyond the first free month so I never did any PvP whatsoever.

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:12 AM 
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Quote:
My logic is based on the fact that WoW has hundreds of different raid mechanics and for new studios/development teams to come up with "completely new" mechanics in every new game is an unrealistic expectation this late in the genre.


Maybe WoW is just the Simpsons of MMO's and we can't just run around saying, "Simpsons did it!" about every little thing, can we?


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:25 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Quote:
My logic is based on the fact that WoW has hundreds of different raid mechanics and for new studios/development teams to come up with "completely new" mechanics in every new game is an unrealistic expectation this late in the genre.


Maybe WoW is just the Simpsons of MMO's and we can't just run around saying, "Simpsons did it!" about every little thing, can we?


If we did, Seth Macfarlane wouldn't have a career...now would he?

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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:43 PM 
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Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang.


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 Post subject: Re: Raid Footage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:25 PM 
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One last thing if I might... After reading that quote, it struck me. You say "this late in the genre", but is there a newer genre of game I'm unaware of besides the MMORPG(ok, persistent MMO worlds in general)? A few subgenres I guess, like DOTA or various puzzle-type spinoffs.

Just sayin... You can date all the classic RPGs, RTSs, Adventure games to the 80's and a few in the 70's. FPS goes back at least to Wolfenstein.

Not really trying to start a debate in semantics but I still feel like the MMO in general is fresh territory and it hasn't been fully explored yet. It requires a focus on mechanics that is different from other genres because of its persistent world and shifting dynamics via playerbase. I see that as enough of a difference to redefine it, personally, and if it's only a 15-ish year old genre, it's pretty damned young compared to everything else out there.


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