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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:26 AM 
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Mythic and BioWare Form New RPG/MMO Group

Today we have important news to share with the community. EA is restructuring its RPG and MMO games development into a new group that includes both Mythic and BioWare. This newly formed team will be led by Ray Muzyka, co-founder and General Manager of BioWare. With this change, Ray becomes Group General Manager of the new RPG/MMO studio group. BioWare’s other co-founder, Greg Zeschuk will become Group Creative Officer for the new RPG/MMO studio group. Rob Denton will step up as General Manager of Mythic and report to Ray. BioWare’s studios remain unchanged and continue to report to Ray.

Mark Jacobs, current General Manager of Mythic will leave EA on June 23, 2009. We thank Mark for his contributions at Mythic and wish him the very best going forward. Mark played a major part in the success of Mythic with his contribution as General Manager and Lead Designer of WAR.

Mythic retains a strong team led by Rob who co-founded Mythic in 1995. Rob played a critical role in the development of Dark Age of Camelot. In his previous role as COO, he was responsible for all day-to-day management of the studio including all development, operations and support.

Please join us in celebrating the union of these two award-winning studios.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:37 PM 
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Oh my...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:36 AM 
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This gave me a full chubby.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:51 AM 
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Gosh.. Mythic's experience creating solid mmo's with Biowares genius and innovation. Finally, there's some hope.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:27 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Gosh.. Mythic's experience creating solid mmo's with Biowares genius and innovation. Finally, there's some hope.


You forgot 1 part of the equation...

Mythic's Experience + Bioware's RPG Experience + EA's Picking up the tab = A New Hope (ha ha, bad pun)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:06 PM 
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It's like Age of Vanhammer all over again!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:14 AM 
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Everyone,

It is a time of change and progress here at Mythic. As we move forward, I want you all to know that our love of MMOs, our passion for the games we create, and our commitment to our fans is stronger than ever. Our studio’s strength has always come from its talented and dedicated team; Mythic is full of passionate, committed people who love MMOs and the games they make. I, personally, have been with Mythic for almost 10 years and look forward to what the studio will build and offer fans over the next 10 years!

We are committed to Warhammer, Ultima Online, and Dark Age of Camelot, and have solid plans for each game. I look forward to discussing our plans for of all of these games with you in the near future. This month, as promised, I’d like to start by sharing some more details from our plans for Warhammer’s continued development over the upcoming months.

Over the past few weeks, we've reached out to many individuals and guilds to share their thoughts, and we’ve been digging down into all of the feedback we have received. As I stated last week, these discussions led us to five key goals which will act as our compass in the months ahead. Our five key goals for Warhammer are:

Addressing concerns related to crowd control and area-of-effect abilities.
Continuing to improve client and server stability and performance.
Strengthening and improving the Tier 4 experience.
Improving server population distribution, both in terms of overall population and Realm balance.
Improving itemization and the overall distribution of “carrots” (fun rewards) throughout the game.

We're still working out the specifics, and as always the details are subject to change, but we'll share several examples of what we're planning and will continue to do so as more details for upcoming features come together in the coming weeks. There's a lot to cover, so let's get started!


Those of you familiar with the higher Tiers in Warhammer know the impact that area-of-effect abilities and crowd control can have on the tide of battle. These abilities should help to shift the ebb and flow of combat, and when used skillfully, should help to even the odds and bring an extra dynamic to the battlefield.

It's clear that many of you desire improvements and changes to the way these abilities currently play out in-game, and we have heard your feedback loud and clear. In Game Update 1.3, we tested out many changes to reduce and focus the effectiveness of AoE abilities; many of these proposed changes which were well-received. After further review of your concerns and requests, we are moving forward with three notable changes to AoE abilities. These changes are:

Reducing the radius of these abilities to account for the "buffer distance" we introduced in Game Update 1.2.
Standardizing these abilities to regular distance and coverage, based on the type of ability.
And tweaking them to ensure that no ability’s power grows out of control.

As for crowd control abilities, we are taking a very critical look at the effectiveness of them and how they're used, and working towards ways to change them so that they remain effective utilities yet are not overly powerful or frustrating. Some of the changes that you'll see coming up very soon include tweaking all Immunity timers to persist through death, increasing their durations, and merging Root Immunity and Knockback Immunity together into a single effect. Beyond that, we want to put some of the power back into your hands, so we'll be introducing a new ability available to all careers (which you can purchase as a Renown reward) that will make you briefly immune to all crowd control!

In addition to these changes, we're also working to release the next phase of the Archmage and Shaman changes in the near future. We still plan on adjusting abilities to create more cohesive Mastery Paths and implementing new abilities and Tactics to make your efforts more rewarding. These will include the new and improved Path of Da Green and Path of Vaul layouts that you knew and loved during the 1.3 Public Test, the new Energy of Vaul and Fury of Da Green abilities, and a handful of new and adjusted Tactics!

With these changes, Rune Priests and Zealots will be thrilled to hear that we'll be re-introducing the ability for your Oath Runes and Marks of Chaos to stack on your allies! All players will be able to have one of each type of Mark or Rune on them at a time, and higher-effectiveness versions will simply overwrite lower-effectiveness ones. This will make your Marks and Runes much easier to use, and a more effective tool in your toolbox.

This is just a brief overview of what we're currently working on to improve combat and careers. Career balance remains an important and on-going endeavor, as well as fixing bugs whenever we can. We firmly believe that it's important, moving forward, that the changes we make are focused and easy to understand so that you have a clear idea of what to test and give feedback on in future updates.

Performance and stability are, and always will be, two areas that we constantly work to improve and maintain. We have already seen great progress in some areas; compared to the end of last year, we have reduced server crashes by 85% on average. But we're not stopping there—over the next several months, our engineers will be working on three primary areas: improving client performance and decreasing hitching, continued investigation into server lag during periods of high activity, and improving server performance during large-scale open RvR combat. Further advancements in these areas will make the game more accessible and, most importantly, more enjoyable for everyone!

Furthermore, improving the end-game experience for everyone is of top importance to all of us. Starting off, we're focusing on bringing a little love to city sieges. RvR is the focal point of WAR, and as such it should be as awesome as it can possibly be! We're approaching city siege improvements with the following two goals in mind:

Bring RvR to every stage of the city assault.
Make the city assault more engaging, exciting, and fun.

To make these goals a reality, we're changing around the way city sieges currently work. The Contested Phase, Stage One of the city-wide Public Quest will remain the same—kill enemy players, and capture and hold two objectives. In Stage Two, we are creating two new victory conditions. We realized that the Public Quest boss was sometimes too difficult to do with enemy players interfering in the encounter, but he is doable in instances with little to no resistance. To ensure that everyone can benefit and have a chance to win, we are changing up things a bit. In Stage Two of the city siege, two additional objectives will spawn within the city. Players must fight to control and defend three of the four objectives by the time the PQ timer runs out; however, you can still kill the Lord to instantly win the Public Quest for your Realm.

If the attackers claim victory in the Contested Phase and move forward to the Pillage Phase, they'll see a few new twists. Firstly, defenders will still be able to defend their city! The streets of the capital city will remain perilous throughout the entire assault. Secondly, both attackers and defenders will continue to compete to earn the rewards from the city-wide PQ, allowing those who need the gear to earn it while properly equipped players take on the two Warlords. (In addition, these encounters will now be instanced, allowing for a greater challenge and chance for rewards to those willing to pit themselves against them.)

Finally, should the attackers push their way to the gates of the palace and capture the city, they'll notice even more improvements in the final phase. Players will continue to be able to participate in the Warlord PQ's and city-wide PQ to earn their rewards. We're also working to improve the loot of the contested-state city dungeons to provide a variety of ways to earn the gear you need to advance and challenge your enemy Realm’s King!

Defenders now have a chance to strike back, though, so attackers beware! Each time the defenders are able to win the city-wide PQ, they will claim back more of the city and reduce the time you have to defeat the King. If the defenders claim victory enough times, the attackers will be thwarted and the city will be reclaimed, putting it back into a peaceful state and resetting the Tier 4 campaign!

In addition to the changes in capital cities, all Keeps (Tiers 2-4) will be upgraded with two ramps leading to the second level from within the Keep’s interior. This gives attackers and defenders more choices and opportunities to make their stand. With area-of-effect, crowd control, city siege, and Keep improvements coming, RvR is going to change for the better. So, be sure to keep an eye out when we start the next rounds of Public Test to check it all out.

And for those wondering about Fortresses, our goal is simple. Make them great, or remove the pain from the campaign. We're looking at our options and will let you know more once we have details to share!

Another area where we frequently receive feedback is population. Whether in terms of Realm balance or overall server population, this continues to be a very important issue for us. We're looking at some fairly radical approaches on how to best bring the population together. We want to ensure everyone is having fun, but we need to do so in such a way that further imbalances aren't created overnight as we have seen in the past. There are a lot of ideas on the table, but your satisfaction is our top concern.

Lastly, we want to give you more incentives and rewards for playing the game. Slaying players and monsters is great, but equally important is treasure and glory. It's what keeps our engines revving and fuels the passion for exploration and conquering new challenges. We're looking at a variety of ways to keep your torches lit and your weapons drawn as we prepare for our future updates. Whether it's new Medallion rewards, Achievements during leveling, or earning Renown Ranks, we want these rewards to be achievable and worth your time and effort.

Later this year, we'll also be improving the Renown Rank rewards you can currently train. Reaching the highest echelons of Renown should be very rewarding and add to the experience and challenges of RvR. We're still in the early stages of planning now, but expect to see more discussion about this in the Fall!

The past nine months have put us to the test, but we're beginning the second half of 2009 with clear goals and a determined direction. Our experiences have only made us stronger as we continue to bring WAR to the world. Earlier this year, we opened the gates to Russia, in July WAR will come to Taiwan, and afterward we're headed to Korea and all corners of the Earth! WAR will truly be everywhere, bigger and better than ever!

The Winds of Change are upon us, but the ship and crew remain the same. As I've said before and I'll say it again, from myself and everyone at Mythic: Thank you for your continued passion and support. We look forward to the many months and years ahead…WAAAGH!

See you on the battlefield,

Jeff Hickman
Executive Producer, Mythic Entertainment


Givin posted this on our forums. That's alot of information about what's going on the rest of the year.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:29 PM 
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Any word yet on if these changes are going to affect the whack-a-mole-butan pvp mechanics of the game?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:09 AM 
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I don't know how you call this pvp whack a mole but whatever

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:07 AM 
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How about knock-back-a-mole? :p


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:05 AM 
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Touche =p There has been a lot of that in WoW lately, and frankly I had more fun in pvp with TBC. Not calling it the epitome of pvp skill, but there always seemed to me to be a de-emphasis on skill/coordination/timing in Warhammer and more emphasis on team strategy required for world pvp. That's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but having both elements would be quite nice. I pvped a decent amount in Warhammer and I saw almost no requirement for any level of skill, be it 1v1 or 50v50. Strategy? Yes. Individual effort? Not really.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:37 AM 
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There is no such thing as individual effort, you're right, you absolutely need to be part of a good team / warband otherwise you're kissing dirt. That's the whole point....far from a whack a mole concept or knock back a mole, although that damn ability sucks in pvp, because in pve it just knocks them down, but whatever.

It's the skill of the group that matters here, not the individual.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:44 AM 
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That's precisely what's wrong with it. Why can't both matter? I'd say that as a valid criticism of WoW's pvp as well, especially in regard to its lacking in meaningful strategic world pvp. I have no quarrel with team games, I love the good ones to death, but I dislike any game that embraces a singular concept so much that they ignore a key aspect of gameplay.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:03 PM 
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What are you talking about? If the individuals suck, the group is going to suck. I don't even know what point you're trying to make.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:10 PM 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:25 PM 
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Sounds like if the glove fits they must aquit..Neesha.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:38 PM 
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That's kind of my point, Neesha - in Warhammer, individuals CAN suck to a higher degree because there's less skill involved. If the leadership and strategy is sound, a large zerg force can succeed beyond wildest expectations, regardless of individual skill.

I talked about individual effort and skill/coordination/timing, to which Sola responded with "It's the skill of the group that matters here, not the individual." Again, I'd prefer both are critical elements as opposed to Warhammer's "press 20 different dps abilities in a row of which at least half are just differently-colored icons".


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:44 PM 
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Venen wrote:
a large zerg force can succeed beyond wildest expectations, regardless of individual skill.


Yeah, let's reach back in your past for an example. How about RotA? If by "wildest expectations" you mean Cazic's enrage, then yes, you may be correct.

Seriously, your opinion on MMOs hasn't mattered since you became the chief clownshoe of the biggest fucking collection of retards on this board's namesake server.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:55 PM 
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I wish I could say I was one of the ones that died to his turning around =/ Granted I think I was playing my beastlord at the time, they didn't swing too fast!

EQ is a decent example of a game that barely took any skill, though. It was almost all time investment. You had a few case examples where someone went beyond the game's outlined limitations, such as Ralanan, but very rare. The only thing remotely close was anything to do with the FD mechanic, and arguably a few CC situations.

But pvp with a human brain on the other side is of course, something else entirely.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:19 PM 
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Venen wrote:
I wish I could say I was one of the ones that died to his turning around =/ Granted I think I was playing my beastlord at the time, they didn't swing too fast!



Protip: Plane of Fear Cazic Thule doesn't, and never did, enrage.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:24 PM 
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Venen wrote:
I wish I could say I was one of the ones that died to his turning around =/ Granted I think I was playing my beastlord at the time, they didn't swing too fast!

EQ is a decent example of a game that barely took any skill, though. It was almost all time investment. You had a few case examples where someone went beyond the game's outlined limitations, such as Ralanan, but very rare. The only thing remotely close was anything to do with the FD mechanic, and arguably a few CC situations.

But pvp with a human brain on the other side is of course, something else entirely.


REALLY? You clearly had no concept of end-game EQ seriously. You probably feel it look little skill because you had a Safehouse checklist that even then you couldn't get right. I'm sorry, but FD? How about executing flawless tank switches during AoW, or learning the Shei Vinitras encounter or the epic annoyance that was Tunare or positioning during Aaryonar? If you saw some of the shit that Listero and Cagen used to pull off...

Really, just stop. Having opinion on shit is one thing, but please don't attempt to debate game mechanic theory. You're just way too uninformed. And no, clearing Naxx doesn't count as finally being omgwtfuber that warrants you having a relevant comment.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:30 PM 
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This troll-feeding is stupid, but I will continue. There is a difference between a small group of people working together to own people and a large Zerg force. In ANY FUCKING GAME, if you have a large enough zerg force, it doesn't matter how skilled people are. In all the "group PVP" discussion on this thread, I am sure that NOBODY (other than you, as you backpeddle) is talking about zerging.

Again, you are still not making any sense. Are you saying you want a PVP game where an elite PVPer can solo his way to success and a group of PVPers can do the same? Can't a badass Hunter protect the Stables all by himself just like a group of people?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:37 PM 
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Warhammer PVP is better than WoW PVP in every single respect.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:09 PM 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:56 AM 
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Protip: Plane of Fear Cazic Thule doesn't, and never did, enrage.


It's been so long I honestly don't remember what he did other than, I believe, some sort of AOE fear or knockback. I do remember him turning around and one-shotting people though. There was a massive amount of lag after Fallen Legacy decided to zone in and I remember people complaining about turning attack off but still swinging because of the lag.

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REALLY? You clearly had no concept of end-game EQ seriously. You probably feel it look little skill because you had a Safehouse checklist that even then you couldn't get right. I'm sorry, but FD? How about executing flawless tank switches during AoW, or learning the Shei Vinitras encounter or the epic annoyance that was Tunare or positioning during Aaryonar? If you saw some of the shit that Listero and Cagen used to pull off...

Really, just stop. Having opinion on shit is one thing, but please don't attempt to debate game mechanic theory. You're just way too uninformed. And no, clearing Naxx doesn't count as finally being omgwtfuber that warrants you having a relevant comment.


I executed a few tank switches on a number of different bosses, though for AoW no question it was post-expansion. Shei was probably one of the more difficult encounters at the time for sure, but I fail to see how it was particularly difficult. If I recall correctly it was the one with the adds on the side, people can't die, and a new Shei pops at some point.

Tunare was laughable though, anyone with a clue about tank positioning had no problems with it. It was made even easier with coordinated pet knockbacks surrounding her. Just a LONGASSSSS fight =) Aaryonar similar deal with positioning.

I know that nostalgia can sometimes get in the way, but EQ was never really a difficult game. It had its moments strategically with boss encounters, but there was almost never any personal skill. And really, what more would you really expect from a game that has its roots and basis in a pure grindfest? Only Korean MMOs have matched it.

And yea, I wouldn't so much as touch Naxx with a 10-foot pole when talking about difficulty. WoW in general is not THAT difficult either, but I would argue more difficult on an individual level than EQ was. The questions I would ask would be: How long did it take you to kill Sarth 3D on both 10 and 25-man pre-patch? Since we're talking about pvp how high was your arena rating in Season 5 and how high is it in Season 6? How close are you to killing Algalon if you haven't killed already? There's a reason most guilds haven't killed him, and with the number of people still playing, it ain't boredom.

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This troll-feeding is stupid, but I will continue. There is a difference between a small group of people working together to own people and a large Zerg force. In ANY FUCKING GAME, if you have a large enough zerg force, it doesn't matter how skilled people are. In all the "group PVP" discussion on this thread, I am sure that NOBODY (other than you, as you backpeddle) is talking about zerging.

Again, you are still not making any sense. Are you saying you want a PVP game where an elite PVPer can solo his way to success and a group of PVPers can do the same? Can't a badass Hunter protect the Stables all by himself just like a group of people?


Yes, if you have a large enough zerg force you can kill stuff, I don't dispute that. But when I'm talking about zerging I'm speaking of "in what capacity" can something be zergged. I figured that was obvious when I talked about individual skill. You can take a 40-man zerg force in one game and it won't work in a different game. Numbers still matter, but if the focus is too much on individual skill, you'll require more.

To answer your latter question, I've indicated that I want something in between the extremes. Something where you NEED to have a team to succeed, but you also need a significant amount of skill as well.

I've seen hunters quite good at defending, but mostly only against really bad players. There's a good reason there aren't a shitload in most of the high arena brackets. IIRC they're still one of the most under-represented atm, though granted I think part of the reason is that there are some realllllyyyyy bad players that roll hunters because of how easy they are to learn. I can count the number of theory-crafting hunters on my server with less than one hand.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:35 AM 
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It didn't have to be Hunters. My point was, you find a good enough player and he can do by himself what it would otherwise take 2-3 people to do. Way to miss the point. But then again, you seem to be missing plenty of points in this conversation, for whatever reason.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:50 AM 
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I think I addressed that very point. To quote myself,

" I'm speaking of "in what capacity" can something be zergged. I figured that was obvious when I talked about individual skill. You can take a 40-man zerg force in one game and it won't work in a different game. Numbers still matter, but if the focus is too much on individual skill, you'll require more. "

Certain games have limitations on where skill will get you. The easiest example would be something akin to a global cooldown which can reduce the amount of timing needed, or a de-emphasis on skill in gameplay in general. In one game, one person may be able to do what takes 2-3 people. In another with said de-emphasis, it may be closer still to 1 or slightly less than what 2 people can do.

Fighting games and FPS's can be good examples here. Take any game from that genre, reduce it to one button press possible every 5 seconds, and you've significantly reduced any potential to become better. Strategy still applies, timing/coordination/skill does not.

In the same respect, if you make it so that there's very little requirement to think quickly about how you're fighting and react to different situations, you've reduced potential. Place 20 icons on a bar that you mash repeatedly regardless of any situation, and you have Warhammer's pvp system.

I don't think I missed any particular point, but if you'll suggest what I specifically missed I'd be happy to address it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:40 AM 
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Venen wrote:
It's been so long I honestly don't remember what he did other than, I believe, some sort of AOE fear or knockback. I do remember him turning around and one-shotting people though. There was a massive amount of lag after Fallen Legacy decided to zone in and I remember people complaining about turning attack off but still swinging because of the lag.


Uh huh. Yeah. He likely one shot you because you had no real organization in terms of positioning. We know, because Leo and I had been watching the fight since the start. We zoned in as you were wiping, since you'd gotten your chance.

Venen wrote:
I executed a few tank switches on a number of different bosses, though for AoW no question it was post-expansion. Shei was probably one of the more difficult encounters at the time for sure, but I fail to see how it was particularly difficult. If I recall correctly it was the one with the adds on the side, people can't die, and a new Shei pops at some point.


It was difficult at the time we did it because we were the second guild to do it serverwide by about 3 hours =P You are really going to speak to an encounter you didn't even finish til long after it was nerfed?

Venen wrote:
Tunare was laughable though, anyone with a clue about tank positioning had no problems with it. It was made even easier with coordinated pet knockbacks surrounding her. Just a LONGASSSSS fight =) Aaryonar similar deal with positioning.


What next, the ogre wall? Tunare...laughable? Once you figured it out, but the coordination required was way out of your league. Now, if by laughable you mean sitting at the zoneline waiting for Visions to call you over for guaranteed victory then yeah it sure was eas.......oh wait, that didn't work either did it?

Venen wrote:
I know that nostalgia can sometimes get in the way, but EQ was never really a difficult game. It had its moments strategically with boss encounters, but there was almost never any personal skill. And really, what more would you really expect from a game that has its roots and basis in a pure grindfest? Only Korean MMOs have matched it.


Once again, you did old encounters with easy strat guides and you're telling me there was no personal skill? Even then you guys couldn't get it right for MONTHS. Nostalgia sure as shit gets in the way.

Venen wrote:
And yea, I wouldn't so much as touch Naxx with a 10-foot pole when talking about difficulty. WoW in general is not THAT difficult either, but I would argue more difficult on an individual level than EQ was.


Sit, yawn, watch healbot. When mob is unkillable prepare to avoid/standin colored areas and/or hit colored switches/blocks and/or attack adds/mirror image. There ya go, WoW encounters in a nutshell, although some are very well designed and hard as shit. Some actual CC would be nice, or ya know, actual mana management required.

Venen wrote:
The questions I would ask would be: How long did it take you to kill Sarth 3D on both 10 and 25-man pre-patch?


Since we really didn't attempt til we geared up a lil bit in Naxx for around six weeks or so. Then about 1.5 weeks of attempts for 25. Soon after, I did the 10-man, shaman-free I might add. As a priest, I LOVED that fight.

Venen wrote:
Since we're talking about pvp how high was your arena rating in Season 5 and how high is it in Season 6?


My rogue in Season 5 did quite well. My priest was raiding holy for season 6, thus, i didn't bother. Honestly, it's too rocks/paper/scissors for my enjoyment, but feh. To each his own, I can see how folks can find it enjoyable.

Venen wrote:
How close are you to killing Algalon if you haven't killed already? There's a reason most guilds haven't killed him, and with the number of people still playing, it ain't boredom.


Oh you mean Blizzard's keepyoubusy cockblock encounter? Yeah, we got bored with Ulduar as a whole and 3.2 is a fucking joke, thus, we moved on.

I'm curious at what you point you decided you were actually a decent player. I guess this is what happens with wow-ification of the genre. I hate to feed the troll here, but we're definitely not the ones wearing the rose colored glasses here, chief.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:35 PM 
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Uh huh. Yeah. He likely one shot you because you had no real organization in terms of positioning. We know, because Leo and I had been watching the fight since the start. We zoned in as you were wiping, since you'd gotten your chance.


I'll agree our positioning was pretty crappy, but the fight was actually going in our favor for the most part(thus his low health and the pre-emptive calls for "ENRAGE!!!") until you zoned in and everyone started lagging. That being said we probably killed him a good 20 times before and after that with nearly the same positioning setup, it wasn't exactly the most demanding fight in the game.

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It was difficult at the time we did it because we were the second guild to do it serverwide by about 3 hours =P You are really going to speak to an encounter you didn't even finish til long after it was nerfed?


I can speak to tank-swapping, not that specific encounter. It was not a particularly tough tactic in general, but rather overhyped by some of the guilds that performed it first(much as the first CH rotations were hyped as mad skillz). Hindsight 20/20 as it is more difficult to learn something when there is little precedent for it when you're one of the first to do it, but it is hardly an epitome of skill potential to EQ's credit.

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What next, the ogre wall? Tunare...laughable? Once you figured it out, but the coordination required was way out of your league. Now, if by laughable you mean sitting at the zoneline waiting for Visions to call you over for guaranteed victory then yeah it sure was eas.......oh wait, that didn't work either did it?


Well, I don't recall a Tunare nerf off the top of my head, so I think we fought the same one as you did. Rallos Zek caused us significantly more trouble than Tunare ever did, as well as several other PoP bosses. The only difficult thing about it was not falling asleep.

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Once again, you did old encounters with easy strat guides and you're telling me there was no personal skill? Even then you guys couldn't get it right for MONTHS. Nostalgia sure as shit gets in the way.


Try not to confuse overarching guild strategy as well as at least some poor membership with personal skill level. We had SOME good players, but it probably wasn't the caliber of player you'd expect in a number of high-end guilds.

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Sit, yawn, watch healbot. When mob is unkillable prepare to avoid/standin colored areas and/or hit colored switches/blocks and/or attack adds/mirror image. There ya go, WoW encounters in a nutshell, although some are very well designed and hard as shit. Some actual CC would be nice, or ya know, actual mana management required.


My alt is a pally healer, so I can't speak to mana management much, but I've heard a number of complaints from shamans and occasionally priests. Nukers though? Sure, not too much.

But yea, you did describe WoW in a nutshell. But you'd again be hard-pressed to name any fight in EQ that was significantly difficult on a personal skill level either. Take away some of the pace of WoW's fights, half of the instant abilities and dynamics, and you might have EQ's difficulty.

EQ had some great individual strategic fights where every inch of the battlefield being fought on had to be positionally correct and thought out, but for each person it was a button mash.

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Since we really didn't attempt til we geared up a lil bit in Naxx for around six weeks or so. Then about 1.5 weeks of attempts for 25. Soon after, I did the 10-man, shaman-free I might add. As a priest, I LOVED that fight.


Like most fights I always thought the 25-man version was a little more chaotic and the area feels smaller with more going on. Anyhoo, you didn't really need the bloodlust for the first or second drake if your dps didn't suck.

Quote:
My rogue in Season 5 did quite well. My priest was raiding holy for season 6, thus, i didn't bother. Honestly, it's too rocks/paper/scissors for my enjoyment, but feh. To each his own, I can see how folks can find it enjoyable.


The reason I point it out is not only because it's pvp and that's more or less the subject of the thread, but also because I cannot think of one encounter in the game that is as demanding on play as high-rated arena games. It's simply difficult for scripted events to compete with human opponents. And sure, there's always a sequence of events and there's not a ton of strategic value, but making sure every single button press gets executed correctly is the difference between 1800 teams and 2500 teams.

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Oh you mean Blizzard's keepyoubusy cockblock encounter? Yeah, we got bored with Ulduar as a whole and 3.2 is a fucking joke, thus, we moved on.

I'm curious at what you point you decided you were actually a decent player. I guess this is what happens with wow-ification of the genre. I hate to feed the troll here, but we're definitely not the ones wearing the rose colored glasses here, chief.


Can I assume you actually fought Algalon? The only cockblock is the fact that you get a limited time to face him, and even that can be overcome assuming skill is present after a couple weeks of attempts. Clearing to him, though? You can beat the hardmodes in less than a week's worth of effort if you were committed to it. That part, at the very least, is not a cockblock. If you're saying you need 20 hours worth of attempts to come up with a proper strategy and execution to down him, then yes.

But yea, I wouldn't say I'm hardcore, but decent is an apt term. Have you ever actually seen me play a game, or are you just going by 5-second sightings during EQ wipes with you watching from afar? If it helps, the feeling is mutual. From what I've heard from a couple sources, you were a good leader, but left something to be desired when it came to serious play.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:50 PM 
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Venen wrote:
Can I assume you actually fought Algalon?


Quick side question, is there anyone who even reads these boards whose in a guild that's either attempted or beaten Algalon?

Back to the related topic, taking large zerg forces into RvR in Warhammer is no guarantee of success. Just last week, many of us were in Tier 2 hopping from one War Band to another doing RvR and we kept getting this leader who was possibly the stupidest person playing the game. Destruction would control 5 or 6 Keeps in Tier 2, and this guy would constantly try leading assaults on the 6th. Well, since it was the only keep Order controlled it was heavily defended and updated to rank 5 (meaning Champion guards everywhere). We watched this guy take 2-3 full WBs and throw themselves at this keep for hours...literally. This happened just about every night of the week. So zerging isn't the key to success.

From a small strike force to a large army ala zerg, you still need someone whose got the ability to lead and people who're willing to follow directions.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:03 PM 
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Warhammer PVP is better than WoW PVP in every single respect.


I keep hearing people say this, and yet people keep leaving the game.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering why - if the PvP is so amazing - people aren't dumping WoW in droves and moving to it. Did they just fail in other ways?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:37 PM 
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Venen wrote:
From what I've heard from a couple sources, you were a good leader, but left something to be desired when it came to serious play.


As a Bard? Heh, definitely not in the Top 5 to be sure (a fact I've freely admitted), as most of my play was actually being a leader which can be pretty distracting. No excuses, tho, during that period I didn't hold a candle to the likes of Leo, Chode or Rydius. Wysp as well. I corrected that oversight during our Stromm run, however, as any of those players will speak to.

As a Ranger? I was pretty fucking good with that class, especially during time when they were more liability than any real help.

As for WoW, it's not hard to be Top 10 on any server (which my priest DEFINITELY was on Ysera) if you came from EQ. Interestingly enough, my wife ended up being guilded with Lweas in a server leading guild not that long ago, along with EQ players from a number of servers. I don't think that's coincidence.

As for the rest, I'm done feeing ya.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:59 PM 
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I keep hearing people say this, and yet people keep leaving the game.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering why - if the PvP is so amazing - people aren't dumping WoW in droves and moving to it. Did they just fail in other ways?
The biggest problem is population, and from what i've seen only briefly - realm balance. Before I took a break from the game, I kept reading that Destro on my server was literally getting steamrolled every single night. Apparently this was because Order just averaged out to where they all logged on earlier after work, and could get mobilized and organized earleir. By the time the Destro people got online in numbers, it was mostly over. Before I quit to play WoW some more, I could get in a tier 3 scenario in less than a minute. Now, on the same server I can be online for an hour and not get a single scenario to pop. Switching to the server sola's on, I can get into some T1 and T2 scenarios last night pretty easily.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:45 PM 
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Sort of a chicken or the egg problem. Thing is, a lot of disgruntled WoW pvpers bought Warhammer and then switched back. With them, maybe the queue times wouldn't be as bad. Not that I would put too much faith in the WoW pvper population, but the idea that Warhammer's pvp is stale is not an isolated one.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:21 PM 
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Not that I would put too much faith in the WoW pvper population


And why is that?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:50 PM 
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Because he is part of the WoW pvper population. Do you put much faith in him?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:56 PM 
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Ouch.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:18 PM 
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I should rephrase that to "entire" WoW population. And the answer is - 50 percent battle.net kiddies, and the other half born after battle.net was conceived.

To be honest, I haven't seriously pvped since TBC, though I have had a couple 2k-rated teams post-WOTLK(nothing particularly special though). Most of my time in-game is spent raiding. Still though, I never fail to notice the difference in skill level when I see someone whom I've known to pvp compared to most of the people that seem to abhor it. Might be a coincidence, but an awfully big and common one I'd say.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:57 AM 
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IMO the difficult aspect of raiding in EQ wasn't game mechanics, it was management. It was tough to keep -- what was it, 55? 70? -- people alert and functioning as a cohesive unit. I admire the guild and raid leaders who could handle logistics on that scale.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:28 PM 
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I can definitely agree with that, that's more or less what I'm talking about when I say strategy was one tough aspect of EQ. Though I guess logistics would be a better word for it, and both strategy and logistics were necessary. I do sorta miss having 71 other people on my screen all working towards the same goal. It would be nice to have a mix of both worlds, because I still enjoy 25 and 10-man encounters as well. Unfortunately we've been a bit pigeon-holed in WoW.

But yea, it was NOT an easy task to get everyone organized. I cringe a little bit out of annoyance when I'm asked to form up a 25-man raid, but then I need to remind myself of what it was like in EQ at times(didn't lead a shitload of raids in EQ, but certainly a few). Take any drama you have in WoW and multiply the chance that any individual might get butthurt over something by 3 and you had EQ. Made for some funny times, though =D

Plus you're not lying about keeping people alert, frankly it wasn't too hard to fall asleep at times. I definitely do NOT miss Vex Thal runs. Repetitive bosses and gameplay at its finest.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:45 AM 
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I actually found it easier to get 50-70 people together in EQ than I do finding 25 in WoW most of the time...people in WoW are just so impatient and fickle, you'll end up going through 70 fucking people as the "omg lets go now now now" people join and quit.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:56 AM 
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Well, one of the differences between EQ and WoW is the sheer number of raid guilds on your server. In EQ, there were like 6 guilds doing the higher-end raid content. So if you wanted to do that content, you had to be in one of those guilds. As a result, there were always applicants to the raid guilds. In WoW, every guild under the sun raids, so you don't have the pick of the litter when you need to replace one of your everyday raiders like you did in EQ.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:22 PM 
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I actually found it easier to get 50-70 people together in EQ than I do finding 25 in WoW most of the time...people in WoW are just so impatient and fickle, you'll end up going through 70 fucking people as the "omg lets go now now now" people join and quit.


I guess maybe that's more common in pugs... personally in my guild people will wait an hour or two before calling something off. People usually show up on time, though, so that's not too common an occurrence.

Even so, actually managing those 71 people effectively was another matter entirely.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:53 PM 
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I liked Warhammer PVP much more than WoW PVP. I suck at WoW pvp though, and I was pretty decent at Warhammer pvp. I definitely think that there's a little more strategy to Warhamnmer pvp and not so much emphasis on personal skill.

I left Warhammer though, because the PVE sucks, and I didn't love the graphics. Those were the main reasons. If I was going to pay a second monthly though, I would pick it up again.


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