Pistons sucked at shooting because of the Suns' defense. I know you like to say "open" shots but I watched the same game you watched. Suns were mobbing the Pistons with hands in their faces and bodies on their men. When's the last time you had an eye exam? I'm 20/15 here bud, didn't miss a thing.

Suns have always had a weakness w/ offensive rebounds and Shaq helped cure that, but so does Barbosa and they both were missing. One of the undisputed areas the Suns have been better at has been rebounding. Obviously missing one of their top rebounders would tilt the scales against them. They've been outrebounding teams left and right, and even when they haven't, they're still winning.

Fact is, the Suns are doing the things they haven't in the past, and that makes them even more of a contender. Nobody thought they'd be 8-3 this early, and didn't even think they were really playoff contenders. I know it's early, but I think we can clearly see that the Suns will only get better. We've got a way better rotation, an actual bench now that keeps leads and improves upon them, and we consistently score better bench points than opposing teams.

I don't know what to say. The Suns are just a better team all-around this year, and I think it'll have an impact. I don't think the Pistons make it out of the East this year considering Boston is trolling along and Atlanta is looking really good too, Cavs as well. Same could be said in the West for the Suns. Only time will tell, for you to say things as if they were factual (1 and done in the playoffs, not much better defensively) when they're playing really well, and not even up to full speed, is stupid.

A barely six foot guard is one of the two primary reasons that your team gets offensive rebounds?!?!?

I honestly think I have heard it all now. But you know what? I was utterly curious...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=2166

And just to clarify your quote so that I don't accidently misquote you-




So Barbosa helped cure the offensive rebounding weakness. Which I find odd, since I looked at Barbosa's career stat line over five seasons and he averages a OMG 0.4 offensive rebounds per game! And even better, this year he is averaging a mighty 0.2 offensive rebounds per! But hey, I am sure his defensive rebounding is insanely better right? I mean when I look at the rebounding leaders in the NBA, Leandro Barbosa's name is consistently top 10 right? Top 20? Top 150?

Hmmm... career rebounding average of 2.4 per. I guess that *probably* makes the top 250...

So then I was very confused (as most usually are) with your post. And as I read farther down the highlighted/quoted paragraph, you state that they've been outrebounding teams left and right. So that got me to thinking a little bit more...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=pho

And I just had to scroll down to see that in 12 games the Suns are averaging 39.3 rebounds per game. And since they have been outrebounding teams "left and right" then surely their opponents must be far far FAR below the 39.3 rebounds per that the Suns average correct? I mean a difference of what- 5, 8, even 12 rebounds per???

Hmmmm.... 39.2 rebounds per game. An outrebounding left and right difference of 0.1 per game. Wow, color me impressed!

So I guess you are correct. An amazing rebounding performance by an amazing defensive team! And doing it all without one of their two primary offensive rebounders who have helped "cure the weakness" in Barbosa. Sorry, I don't know my basketball!

Or is it the other way around... hmmm...

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You two either need to shake hands and walk away, or bang each other's brains out.

let them fight, it is amusing.

Where's the exaltation of the glorious championship destiny of the Suns after the game last night in Utah? Just look at how well the Suns rebounded, they pulled down 21 rebounds on defense while only giving up 17 offensive rebounds to the Jazz. That's 4 more rebounds, that's pretty significant with Barbosa not playing.

4 is a very important number for them, because that's how many fast break points they totalled on the night, too. Clearly this is a Suns team that can run with anyone and having Shaq on team hasn't slowed them down. Shaq even pulled down one rebound during the game, more evidence that he's going to be a big contributor to the Suns championship run. Toss in his 9 points on 3 of 11 shooting, and the Suns have quietly turned themselves into an unstoppable machine.

the combination of hitting a bad night on a back-to-back and playing in utah is hard to do. utah has won 33 of their last 34 games at home. last year they were 37-4 at home.

everyone hits a bad night.

Wow. An excuse. Coming from you we all should expect that, but still...

Then again, I guess you could say that Detroit was playing its 3rd road game in 4 nights... and they had just defeated the only remaining undefeated team in Los Angeles, which was an uplifting game, and for those of us who are athletes (I understand that excludes you Sky so let us explain)... sometimes after an emotional big time win you have what is commonly referred to as a "let down" game. And maybe that is what Phoenix was in the big scheme of things?

But here is what I will say- Sunday night, Phoenix definitely outplayed Detroit. We could not make a basket, which was basically the difference. I thought we did everything else well (outrebounded Phoenix by 3... but wait the amazing offensive rebounder that is Barbosa did not play, so that explains that), but Phoenix made a high percentage of shots... and Detroit did not. Nothing else. Ball game- gg Phoenix!

But hey... everyone hits a bad night

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Unless you are the Mavs then you have a bad couple decades

In totally unrelated news, the Lakers went into Phoenix and handed the Suns a 13-point loss. Kobe Bryant was a stellar 8-23 from the field for 24 points, while Steve Nash showed why he's a top candidate for his 3rd MVP Award as he contributed with 8 points, 10 assists, and only 2 turnovers in just 35 minutes. Channeling his inner-McNabb, Matt Barnes was asked after the game what he thought of the team's performance. "We tied them 25-25 in the 4th quarter. I wasn't aware that the score was kept for any quarter other than the 4th. YMCA Basketball allows ties, Midget Basketball allows ties, I assumed the NBA did also. I'd hate to see one team actually be declared the "winner" in the playoffs, or God forbid, during the NBA Championship. I didn't know one team could lose until coach called the last play, the half-court desperation heave." The Big Cactus could not be reached for comment.


Steve Nash predicting how this
season will end.

The Suns will continue to lose if they do not get control of their turnovers. It's like they don't care for some reason. That is not taking care of the ball, and it's embarrassing.

In case Skycrasher forgot, this was posted on November 13. Scroll up if you don't believe. I just wonder who the basketball idiot is now... because to my knowledge, the Suns currently wake up this morning on December 5 with a ... wow... 11-9 record.

Maybe I should play those powerball numbers... hmm...

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They lost to the Mavs, how good can they be?

The Suns are playing terrible right now, and I believe it's completely the fault of the coaching staff. It's not like Stoudemire and Nash suddenly lost their talent. The Suns may very well go .500 for the first time in years. We're 1/4 of the way through the season and on the brink of .500... I mean come on. When will the shake up come and Porter being fired?

Porter is a bad coach. He's 82-102 in his career. Why we hired him I have no clue. Kerr and Porter need to go. I don't know who they'd bring in, maybe Avery Johnson but god damn Porter is ruining the Suns.

I almost HOPE that the Suns go under 500 just to get Porter the fuck out of here.

I agree it is the fault of the coaching staff! I mean, the coaching staff is turning the ball over countlessly in the half court game. I saw the coaching staff get the ball in the post, make a move to the basket, and dribble it off of their knee into the hands of the Dallas player! I also saw the coaching staff stand and watch as the guy they were "guarding" (I use that term loosely) went to set a pick, rolled to the basket... but the coaching staff just stood and watched them roll uncontested!

I agree, the coaching staff is horrific. They need to stop turning the ball over and start playing some defense and stop letting these players go for 30-40+ points each game.

OR...

Maybe the Suns' roster just isn't right for a half court game, which is what Porter and Kerr want to run. And maybe the Suns' roster simply cannot play defense outside of Bell, whether it be lack of talent (Nash) or lack of desire (Stoudamire) or lack of youth (O'Neal). Maybe it is time to break up the Suns and get some players who can play in the half court, who can play some half court defense, and who can play the style of basketball that Porter and Kerr want them to play.

Nash is an open court player. Period. He is a complete liability on defense, and struggles with his passing in the half court set. Stoudamire doesn't want to play defense, and just wants to jack up 25-30 shots a game. He has improved offensively in the half court with his jump shot, but O'Neal destroys him because O'Neal HAS to post up which takes space away from Stoudamire. And O'Neal is just irrelevant now- a 300 pound man who is long past his prime and is so physically worn down that he cannot play back to back games... and even when he does play, he is capable of a 1-6 game. And don't tell me that Dampier dominated Shaq defensively which is why Shaq went 1-6...

Bottom line is, the Suns need to change their roster. They need to get young, and they need to get defensive. Trading Marion was a huge gamble, and it obviously is not working out right now. I am sure they would love to have Marion and his 1 on 1 defensive capabilities right now... as well as freeing up the interior for Stoudamire to work on offense.

Honestly, I think you trade Nash while he still has some value. You ride out O'Neal's contract and then don't offer him anything to come back- let him retire or get another ring elsewhere. And then you either (a) try and convince Stoudamire to not opt out in 2010 and go to New York with D'Antoni (or another team)... or (b) decide that you want Porter as a coach, decide that you want to become defensive, and trade Stoudamire and begin the rebuilding process.

The system also doesn't work for Barbosa either. He is not a half court player, and should bring some value in a trade as well. The window is no longer open, it is time to either rebuild around Stoudamire or start fresh with players that work in the system.

The one criticism I do have of Porter right now is that, for some odd reason, he wants O'Neal to be the focal point of the offense. I have seen several games so far, and when the Suns get into the half court set up they are dumping it into O'Neal and letting him do his thing. You have Stoudamire... why he is not the top option is beyond my comprehension. I think Porter sees Shaq and thinks of 1998 or something instead of 2008.

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The coach needs to match the personnel dude. You don't fire everyone because they're all wrong for the team. The team has people under contract til 2010, that needs to be a consideration.

They need to find a coach that's a better fit for the personality of the team. Killing team morale, their flow, and the way they play is NOT the way to win. They'll be fine if they nip this in the bud and bring in a coach who knows how to win. (Which Porter doesn't, as proven by his overwhelmingly losing record.)

PS: It's "Stoudemire" -- not "Stoudamire" -- please fix that.

They just brought in Porter. They are not going to get rid of him so soon. That would make Kerr look really bad, and Kerr already looks bad for the whole Marion/O'Neal gamble that obviously hasn't paid off. Imagine if the Suns had a lock down defender like Marion right now... plus, not having O'Neal would clear up the middle for Amare to do his own thing down low.

I still think that they have to accept that their window has closed, and that they need to start getting into rebuilding mode. Sure they can finish out this season with 45 wins or so and a first round exit, but really... is that what they really want to do? Next year is another 45 win season, another first round casualty... and then they lose Nash and Amare?

Porter needs to decide if he can work with Amare and get him to play defense, something that Amare seems completely unwilling to do. If so, then you trade Nash right now to get value for him... you ride out Shaq's contract, and you rebuild around Amare. If he cannot work with Amare, then you need to move Amare before he bolts elsewhere. And unfortunately you go into complete rebuilding mode, and look at maybe 2011-12 as moving up the playoff ranks.

Kerr goofed with the O'Neal trade. If he gets rid of Porter now, that is not going to look good on his resume. He needs to work this out so that he comes out looking good, and the team. He can spin a Nash or Amare trade to the media and fans to get them to buy into it, but how can he spin his own resume a few years from now if he gets rid of Porter? Yeah hire me, I make crappy decisions!

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Marion isn't a lock-down defender. Lol, he's never even made the NBA Defensive teams. Ha. Marion and the Heat aren't doing any better w/ the trade either.

The reason they haven't accepted the window has closed is because it hasn't. They are playing like shit but still have a decent record. 11-9 isn't too bad considering Spurs are like 11-8, nobody has written them off yet. It's too early to write the Suns off yet but if something doesn't change, and soon, then I think we could see a losing season for the Suns (40-42 or so) if they keep this up. If they turn things around, I think they'll eek out a 50-32 or so season, which isn't great but it'll be enough to get them into the playoffs.

Suns need to start beating some tough teams and that's only going to come if they can get back some of who they used to be -- which Porter admitted needs to happen. The reason Nash is getting so many turnovers is because the lanes are so crowded by Porter's wack offensive plays. They don't work for the Suns. They have improved in all facets on defense, but they aren't able to take care of the ball anymore. The Suns had a great last 20 games with Shaq last year, they went 15-5 and averaged 112ppg and were able to run and gun and win, while improving in areas we needed to. Kerr pushed D'Antoni out though.

Kerr isn't a good GM, obviously. He looks like a fool in just about everybody's eyes I'd say by now.

Again, they need to fire Porter and Kerr. They're both killing the team, not the players. If they both stay, and the Suns don't see the post-season or don't have any success there, then I think we can expect Nash and Stoudemire to move on their own will in this next off-season. Nash would likely to NY to be w/ D'Antoni again imo. Who knows though.

Shake things up in the front-office / coaching staff area before this becomes even more disastrous.

PS: December 16th can't come soon enough. I'll be out of market, and if the Suns continue losing it'll be easier to lose my obsession with making sure I don't miss a single game, and won't have to order Comcast w/ NBA League Pass. Ha. Save a few bones.

I don't see Kerr going anywhere. Sarver likes him, which is basically the only person you need to have like you in that position. Well, that and your coach. And I am sure that Kerr and Porter get along well, from their familiarity as players to today's working relationship.

As much as you hate Porter and Kerr, I don't expect them to go anytime soon. Nash and Amare have a better chance of leaving (and probably an easier time moving them too) than Porter and Kerr.

As far as the window... do you honestly see the Suns winning a road playoff series against Lakers, Hornets, Rockets (once/if they get everyone healthy and playing together with chemistry) or Jazz? You could probably sell me on a Rockets road series win, since they seem to choke every fricking year with McGrady. I definitely don't see the Suns hosting a playoff series, and I don't see them winning a road one over the above four. And the way that Denver w/Billups and Dallas is playing... Suns may go as low as a seventh seed. And I have not even mentioned Portland lol... their window is slammed shut. With the teams above the Suns, there is no way that the Suns are making a Finals appearance, and the Suns are not getting better- they are going in reverse.

And next year won't be any better. They are not going to be thinking Finals next year, not with the Lakers and Hornets and Jazz and Rockets and Portland above them (among who knows what other teams will improve). And of course the next year is the summer of 2010 where they are basically losing Nash and Amare and Shaq (although that is not a big loss). And then they are in dire straits with no back up plan and no value received for Nash and Amare.

If they honestly think they can make a NBA Finals this year with that roster, and get past LA/NO/HOU/UTA on the road... then go for it. I just don't see that happening. At all. Time to rebuild- either around Amare, or not.

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Right now? Suns can't beat anyone. Let alone the Lakers, Hornets, Jazz, etc. They're not going anywhere with the way they're being handled and playing right now.

Other than that...

I don't know what to think right now other than what I've said. The Suns will be in some dire straights if they don't get some momentum going and regain confidence or have a change in the coaching staff, w/ someone who is more suited for the team, rather than having a whole team suited for a coach.

The real issue I see is that the Suns have hands down, one of the most talented rosters in the entire league. They're just being mismanaged right now. Suns don't need to rebuild because they've got a killer team. Nash, Stoudemire, those are two of the top players in the league. Shaq is ok but needs to be the 2nd go-to guy for big-men. Stoudemire needs to eat some Wheaties and play more defense instead of talking big. He's a whiny pussy right now. After all his trash talk, he had a 4 rebound game. I mean come on. Shut up and play.

Dark days indeed.

So you honestly believe that the Suns could win a road playoff series over Lakers, Hornets, Jazz or Rockets? Possibly a road playoff series over Portland? I mean I know that you are not good at predicting, after all you disagreed with my 11-9 prediction and we all see where that went to

But seriously... I think that is the question. Can the Suns make the Finals? Can they win a road playoff series over those teams? If Kerr and Porter and Sarver honestly, truely believe they can... then you have to keep the team and add pieces at the trade deadline. But if they have doubt (which it is starting to seem that there is) then they need to start moving pieces and get some value for them before 2010.

Gambo and Ash (and the listeners) were lighting up the Suns today. Lots are calling for Amare to be moved, saying he is simply not a leader of a team. Great offensive player, but not a main leader go-to guy. You can get some great value for him, and I tend to agree that his leadership is definitely questionable. I mean, anyone who comes out and says "I want the ball, I want to be the man, I want to be the go to guy, I want to shoot 25 times a game" isn't really coming across as "team first, me second"...

And if you are going to move Amare, the least you can do is move Nash to a contender so he can try and get a ring. The Suns at least owe Nash that for all he has done for their franchise the past few years IMO.

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you are fooling yourself if you think that Avery Johnson would be the answer at coach. He might be better than the current guy, but he doesn't match the players that the Suns have now. The Lil' General wants to run a controlled half court game with a strong defense. He is also very caustic and will ruin good young players (see: Devon Harris; Johnson nearly ruined that kid, he was lucky that he got hurt and traded to NJ where he can grow as a player) and alienate the team's stars (see: Dirk and his demand to Cuban to either be traded or have Johnson go)

So let's take a wild assumption and believe that ownership and management within the Suns' organization believes that they can reach the NBA Finals this year. Fine. Well, they are going to have to add a piece or two by the trading deadline in order to accomplish this. But here is the thing-

You have to keep Nash and Amare together on the team.

You cannot trade O'Neal and Diaw because no one wants their contracts. Shaq is 20+ million this year and next, and Diaw has like 9 million per over 4-5 years. PS- what an awful contract that is lol.

Barnes is only useful on a team that runs and guns- old Phoenix, Golden State, maybe Denver. Possibly could go to New Orleans, but they already have Posey as their end game player at that position.

Hill is too old. Lopez is too young.

So the question is... who do you trade?

The only pieces they have to move are Barbosa and Bell. What exactly could they get for those two that would put them into Lakers/Celtics territory and have them think Finals thoughts? If you trade both for one player, then you cripple your bench. If you move Barbosa (most likely), I doubt you can get someone so special that he puts you over the top.

Even with best case scenarios all played out for the Suns, I just don't see them any better than a 45-49 win team that is (at best) a fourth seed in the West. Most likely they are a sixth seed, maybe a fifth, maybe as low as eighth. But they are on the road, and they are losing their first round. Even if by some small miracle they win their first round road series... now they have another road series against a similar or slightly better opponent. Can they do it twice? Poker odds say they have one out on the river. Not the best odds.

I guess you can give the Suns until mid-January to figure this out. But if that time comes and they simply don't think they can get a Finals appearance coming out of the West, then I think they seriously need to make some moves to get value players back in return. Because you want to be somewhat prepared for 2010, and want to have a playoff caliber team at that point... or else you are not going to be doing anything until probably 2013 at minimum after a couple draft classes can develop.

Or I suppose you can believe the Mayan calendar and believe that the world is going to end in what, 2012 it is? In which case all this future talk is moot

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Huge trade for the Suns that definitely makes them more competitive and a better team.

Unloaded that hump Diaw SF, Bell SG, and Singletary PG.
Received Jason Richardson SG, Jared Dudley SF

This gives us that missing firepower from Marion back. And the guy is athletic and explosive, and one of the top 3 shooters in the league. I really like this trade. Bell has been on the decline but still was a good player, he's averaging lows for his stint here this year. Diaw is a bum any way you slice the pie. And Singletary, didn't see much from him but we have Dragic for PG.

...

Last time I checked, you only play with one basketball. Amare wants the ball. Shaq wants the ball. And now you add Richardson who (you guessed it!) wants the ball.

You weaken your bench doing this. Diaw isn't the best player, but he is a solid bench guy. Richardson is an improvement over bell from an athleticism standpoint and offensive capability standpoint; however... is that really what the Suns need? Another guy who wants the ball and shoots?

At least with Bell and Diaw you had guys who did not need the ball all the time, so that Amare and Shaq can fight over it.

I dunno about this trade. Bell was a solid defender, Richardson is definitely not a defender. Yeah he is going to score more points than Bell... but at the expense of Amare. Which who knows what that is going to do from his frame of mind.

I guess the bottom line is... Richardson is a #1 scorer option-type of player. The Suns already have Amare to fill that role, and Shaq wants the ball as well (and for some odd reason, Porter wants him to have the ball too). Maybe it works out, but I just see three "ball hogs" fighting over one ball, and Nash wondering what the heck he has to do to make all three happy.

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Diaw isn't solid, you dolt. Diaw is one of the most inconsistent players on the Phoenix Suns. He also lacks balls and is not aggressive. He will kick out the ball when he's under the basket because he wants to pass first. He was hands down the most inconsistent player on the Suns. If you think he was "solid" then that just shows your lack of knowledge about the Suns, and basketball in general.

Richardson is exactly what the Suns need. With the loss of Marion, we lost a little firepower. We gained some, and better rebounding with Shaq, but we lost some firepower. Richardson fills that gap and we get a 20ppg game, instead of Bell's 8.9ppg. Bell took a lot of shots, mind you -- but he hasn't been shooting too well this last year and a half. J-Rich is hitting career highs in FG% and 3P%.

I disagree that J-Rich's points will come at an expense of Amare's PPG too, because with Marion, Stat was still posting 20+ppg. Shaq had a monster game last night (35pts, 8rb) and Amare had a good night.

We'll see in a month though. Whereas all the commentators and analysts are saying this is a much needed breath of fresh air and great trade for the Suns, Cicely, the Lanys Dunce has yet another contrary (uninformed) opinion.

You must forget the past 4 years where all the Suns averaged double figures in every game. There are no ballhogs on the Suns, and I don't think J-Rich will mess that up.

I'm excited for the game tonight because I wanted to see the run and gun Suns w/o Shaq but looks like w/ an 8-man roster, the inevitable (loss) may happen.

Funny, cause the ESPN analysts tonight were confused as hell about the trade- no one really knew why it was made. So not every analyst out there is excited about the trade. (ps- before anyone jumps on me, I made my post before the ESPN guys talked so don't claim I just copied/pasted)

Marion is not a ball hog like Richardson is. Marion gets his shots within the framework of the offense... actually, he usually just gets offensive rebounds, fast break points, and the wide open three point shot from Nash driving and dishing. Richardson wants the ball, he demands the ball... and this means less shots for Amare and Shaq. And BTW, there is a difference between PPG and FGA. Might want to google that if you are confused.

So Bell has a couple weeks of bad games, and Richardson has been shooting over 50% from three for a week after his injury. Oooo. So that is reason to make a trade? Heh. I would love to see you have a couple bad weeks at your job and then have your employer fire you after being with them for 4 years or so.

And it is funny that the year Amare was out, Diaw had a career year. Maybe moving out of Amare's shadow he can regain his form from that year. I am completely shocked that some team took on his contract, that was a bigger surprise as the Suns getting Richardson! Funnier thing is that I read somewhere later that moving Richardson frees up minutes for Felton/Augustin. Which is odd, considering they are basically the same player playing the same position, and you would think Bell would come in and take up the minutes Richardson was playing. I suppose Bell could play 5-10 minutes less than Richardson, and those minutes can be distributed between Felton/Augustin, but still I don't see how that is a win for Charlotte.

It just seems like an ... odd trade for both. I can somewhat understand it from Charlotte because Brown is one of the best teaching coaches out there, and maybe he can teach Diaw and make him a much better player than what he is. I mean, the guy did average like 15/8/7 or something that one year, so he definitely does not lack talent. Either way someone has to take up the 20 or so minutes that Diaw was playing, and I am wondering who that bench player is that Porter/Kerr has in mind to replace Diaw's back up minutes. Lopez? Ugh I guess... but he is definitely raw and unproven.

Like Wilbon said last night... Richardson trade would have made sense last year under D'Antoni's run/gun system. Now... I just don't get it.

And as far as being a dunce, I am curious- what was the Suns' record after 20 games? I could go back and quote if you need me to

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Maybe - just maybe - the problem with Phoenix starts with the point guard. He kinda sucks this year. And by "kinda" I mean "really". He's like a Jason Kidd who can't rebound.

ps: Porter is a terrible coach, which doesn't help.

15ppg and 9apg isn't too bad, but his TOs have been insane this season. Nash is still a top point guard, we just need to get a balance which we haven't struck yet.

I'll reassess in a month. Hopefully we're not under .500 by then. Personally, I blame the coaching staff. It's not like our talent disappeared overnight. Porter sucks, and needs to be fired. Bump Majerle up to HC and see how he does. We all know the Suns aren't going to win a championship this year, so who cares anymore.

Here's a good ESPN article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... ger-081210

Ha ha ha like a month or two ago at the beginning of the season it was all praise for the almighty Suns! And now...



Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

So you are admitting that they are a first round road playoff casualty at best? You have finally come around to what I have been saying since the start of the season? And you want to call me an idiot when I have been right all along???

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

BTW lots of rumors are flying around with Nash and Stoudemire now. Seems like Nash is not happy at all that his boys Bell and Diaw are gone, and Stoudemire now has to share the shots with another player which goes against his public diatride from a week or two ago where he "Wants to be the man, wants to take the shots, yadda yadda yadda." One rumor has Stoudemire going to Portland for several players including Fernandez. That could put Portland close to the Lakers for West supremacy for the next several years...

Also seems like lots of the reasons for trading Bell/Diaw were that they were vocal about their dislike of Porter's system. So they criticize the coach... and are shown the door. Woo! I told you they are breaking up the Suns because Kerr and Porter want things done their way, not D'Antoni's way. And Nash even said that their roster is "Not built for a half court system" which is what Kerr/Porter want. I see a big shake up coming in January, especially if they don't roll off a 8-2 or 9-1 record for the rest of December with Richardson...

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Bringing in J-Rich is a sign of a more up-tempo focus, dude

I am guessing you read the first message on that thread that compared to this trade to last year's Gasol trade and immediately linked it. You might want to go back and read the rest of that link though... not everyone is as high on the trade as you and the first poster

All the reaction I have read/heard has been 50/50 at best. The Suns just don't know what they want to do as a team, and these trades suggest that. Run and gun last year... and you get Shaq, who is the complete antithesis of run and gun? Have a fast break roster... and you get rid of a fast break coach for a half court/defensive coach? Trying to implement a half court offense with an emphasis on defense... and you get rid of your best 1 on 1 defender and a 6'9 passer in the half court? Trying to satisfy Amare and let him "be the man" and take shots... and you bring in a guy who will jack up shots from anywhere and wants the ball as much as Amare?

It doesn't make sense to me. Richardson is a lower end all-star player, and is four years younger than Bell. Maybe they are thinking that in 2010 they are losing Nash and Amare, so they are going to start rebuilding around Richardson? I don't know. I know their bench is a bit lighter (Barbosa and Hill... and that is about it), and it will be interesting to see shot distribution between Richardson, Amare and Shaq. Maybe Porter wants to go a bit more up tempo... but all along him and Kerr have preached defense and half court!

We shall see I guess. I don't get the trade. For the Suns' sake they need to go 9-1 or 8-2 starting Friday night or else I can see them blowing up the team in January and February before the trade deadline. Maybe that Amare to Portland trade could bring lots of youth to Phoenix and they can rebuild with some young talent once Shaq is gone in 18 months.

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Shaq isn't the complete antithesis though... that's where you're wrong. Post Shaq-trade, they averaged 112ppg and led in FG%. Heh. Shaq can run. Shaq is healthy.

And no, most of the thoughts in the story I linked felt that this was a great move for the Suns, and a boost in energy that they needed. Like I said though, I'll wait a month to see how it turns out.

PS: Boris, solid?









Right... Jee Cicely you sure do know a lot about sports! =)

Yeah look at those last two quotes. He had an outstanding year when Amare was gone all season. Maybe a change of scenery will get him back to that time and let him be solid and productive. And Brown is an excellent teacher, and maybe Brown can get out of him what he accomplished a few years ago.

I am not saying that Diaw is an All-Star. But I will fully agree that-

(1) He and Amare cannot play together.
(2) He is extremely unselfish, to the point that he sometimes lacks offensive aggressiveness.
(3) He is a solid 1 on 1 defender, with a tall body and long arms.
(4) He did have a year where he played basically all 5 positions, and averaged around 15/8/7 or something like that, with a steal and a block per game to boot. All while shooting a decent percentage from the field.

Diaw must have some modicum of talent. He did have one year where he was fantastic. Maybe it was a fluke season, who knows? But the one constant that year was that Amare wasn't there... so maybe getting away from Amare will help his career out. Of course, I don't think Felton/Augustin play like a Nash circa 2005 so maybe part of those great stats was Nash assists to him. But Nash also doesn't help him get the rebounds, assists, steals and blocks which he had a good amount of.

Diaw simply wasn't a good fit on the Suns. Hopefully he will be on the Bobcats. Still surprised someone took on his contract... but I guess if he can regain his 15/8/7 form then that contract looks much much better to take on

And Brown coached Bell in 2001. Bell can still hit open threes, although I am not sure how many he will see in Charlotte. He is still a good defender, and maybe Brown can spark him now that he is away from Porter. I like the trade for Charlotte a lot more than I do for Phoenix, only because I don't yet know what Richardson is going to bring to the Suns... and how his presence is going to affect Amare's offensive touches and Porter's half court/defensive-minded philosophies. If he can co-exist with Amare (both on and off the playing court, as far as off the court not having verbal drama or mental drama/jealousy) and if he can buy in to the Porter defensive philosophy (assuming they are still going with that)... then the trade favors the Suns.

But like the Shaq trade last year... just too many "What if's" and too many question marks to like it right now.

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Diaw would have been a good keep if Amare left. Otherwise, his contract vs. what he actually does was way out of whack.

Amare needs to man up and go to the hole. It's like he can't get anywhere near the basket really anymore, and has to hit jump-shots. Plus, he doesn't practice what he preaches as far as defense goes. Shore up those areas and Amare will be a big help. I dunno.

Mixed feelings right now. Hard to figure out what I really believe. I'm moving in a week and I won't be watching the Suns like I do now, unless I get NBA League Pass. Who knows. :/

Boris' best year was 05/06, 13ppg, 6rpg, 6apg.

I doubt you would want Diaw on your team for the next 18 months until Amare leaves for New York or Portland or wherever in 2010. If he is, then he is simply Amare's backup... and I agree that to pay a guy who can only play 10-15 productive minutes a night as a back up 9 million per is dumb. That is why everyone fusses over the contract- if he is playing 13/6/6 then 9 mill per might be somewhat satisfactory. Overpaying of course... but I am sure people can live/deal with it.

I wish Diaw best of luck over there. I think he has the talent to be 15/8/8 in the right system/team, hopefully he can get that in Charlotte.

I know Nash has publically voiced his displeasure about the trade. He has also criticized Porter's offensive schemes. If they struggle out of the Richardson gate... then I am wondering if Nash or Porter are the next to go. I have maintained all along that the Kerr/Porter combo will stay, and that the players will go to get the roster that Kerr/Porter want. And I have maintained that they need to trade Nash to get some value while he still has skills... although his skills seem to have gone down a bit- too inconsistent, too old, just doesn't seem to be his old self. His value is dropping- you can still trade him on the Nash name alone, but if he continues to inconsistently struggle and turn the ball over... then your value for him drops mightily.

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It'd be a shame if they let Nash go, but who could blame Nash for wanting to leave? The Suns haven't done it in the 4 years he's been here... each year it's seemed to have gotten worse too.

Nash is still a top PG though. I don't think he "dropped off" -- he can still shoot and has a vision for the court. There's something else that's wrong here, and I think it's the coaching. As bad as he's playing in regards to turnovers, that has a lot more to do with the offensive sets and floor spacing instituted by Porter. Nash is only 34 and he's in amazing shape. The guy is one of the most fit players in the NBA. He's not "too old" or "too slow". Something around him changed, obviously. As bad as he's playing right now, there is nobody else that would be better to bring in. We have a guy who is 15ppg and 10apg, who would we bring in? If something changes and Nash is back in charge of the offense again, then I think we see the 20ppg and 11apg Nash again.

I don't know who would go though. I think Porter and Kerr would be the ones to go to be honest with you. Imho, the Suns signaled here that they're looking to kick up the offense and run and gun with J-Rich. The guy isn't built for slow half court grind it out basketball. The last few games, the Suns have appeared to be more of the Suns of old, instead of the first 30-games Suns. (Including pre-season.) I think that Porter understands that this team is built a certain way, and if he lets them play that way while emphasizing some solid defense, that may be a better way to go than to focus completely on defense, and just let the offense come. In the beginning of the season he said that -- that they'd focus on defense and that the points would come, but until a few days ago, Suns were averaging 99.9ppg.

Like I said though, on paper, I like the trade. I haven't liked Diaw in a long time because he's far too inconsistent. Bell is a decent player, but dropped off considerably from his 15ppg production. I'm glad we got a third scorer back. We used to have Nash, Amare, and Marion. Now we have Nash, Amare, and Richardson. With our great others like Hill, Barnes, and O'Neal, we could be right back in the pack again.

I'd say I can't wait... but I can. I miss the old Suns.

Nash's back argues with you that he is "one of the most fit players in the NBA"... I just don't see that many players with healthy and fit backs always having to lay down on the ground when he is not playing. Most of them sit on the chairs and stand up to cheer plays and teammates. But maybe I am just watching a different game than you are, at least that is what most people on these boards say about me

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He's been doing that since he's been with Dallas, and his back hasn't caused him to sit out for many games. He's had that condition since he was a kid, dude. It's just something he lives with.

I'm surprised cicely didn't bring up the recent Spurs victory over the Suns just to mess with xskycrasherx.

Yeah so I decided to revisit this thread out of boredom. Heh I had the Clippers making the playoffs. El oh el.

At least my Suns predictions were close to spot on- did not want to play defense under Porter, ship him out, decide to not give a damn about defense at all and just run/gun, win their first couple games against horrific teams (Clippers x2, Thunder) and think they are a playoff caliber team. And then of course, reality sets in.

Obviously the Iverson trade was bad for Pistons. I do think they had to make a move/take a gamble, it just didn't pay off. At least they have cap room next year to get one of the top free agents to go alongside Prince/Hamilton/Stuckey/Maxiell.

And I did make a comment about how Diaw and Bell going to Charlotte would hopefully help them and that Diaw wasn't that awful a player... last time I checked Charlotte was in talk for the last playoff spot. Sounds like a good trade for them!

And my bad on the whole 3/4 stadium seats filled up early in the thread. Major oops there, I just remembered the games I saw last year were constantly filled up... then again I don't have NBA Ticket or whatever so did not watch all the games. I still think it is #2 in this country behind football, but unfortunately my logic probably fails to hold up much debate heh.

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Yeah, losing Amare until next season has nothing to do with the 6 game losing streak that helped get them further from the playoffs. They're w/o Barbosa, their top bench player, but they've reeled off 5 wins since then.

Besides, they have 12 games left, with 5 wins in a row atm. If they can keep that up I think they still have a very legitimate chance of getting in. The Suns just seem to have terrible luck, but they keep on keepin' on. Firing Porter was the best move they could have made, that guy fucking SUCKS as a head coach. Totally wrong fit for the team. You don't build teams around coaches, you build them around the players.

Now, if they get in, and face the Lakers, well then that's a horse of a different color.

Their defense under Gentry has gone for awful to pathetic to bottom 3 in the league. Like I told a friend of mine who is a long time fan of the Suns, what do you want- run and gun offense, 55 regular season wins and a second round exit.... or solid defense, 50 regular season wins, and a chance to win a NBA title? It seems like most who live in Phoenix don't give a damn about a title and just want to see them run and gun... well, be careful what you wish for I guess.

In today's NBA game, defense wins championships. I said it earlier in this thread, and I say it today. It is not like the early 80's when the Lakers could just run and gun all over the place and outscore everyone because no one played defense during that period. It was only when the Pistons in the late 80's became a strong defensive team, instituted the Jordan Rules, and won a couple titles that the league shifted to a "defense wins titles" mentality. And while run/gun sells tickets and gets fans excited... it just doesn't win a title.

AZ radio was saying that the Suns (supposedly, you know AZ sports talk radio) are going to try and shop Nash, Amare and Shaq this off season and go into a rebuilding mode- unless for some miraculous reason they are in the Finals. In which case Sarver might hold off on that rebuilding project heh. I highly doubt they can move Shaq's 20+ million contract... but it should be relatively easy to move Amare if they can find someone to sign Amare to a long term extension that he wants- the 8 year 140 mill max contract IIRC.

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Shaq moving is more likely that you'd expect. He's rejuvenated this system, it seems.

The Suns have gotten close to the finals / championship but were struck with unfortunate events. I'll stick to that til I die, because it's true. They caught MANY bad breaks, some their fault, some not. Bullshit suspensions, losing Joe Johnson due to eye injury, Amare this season, shitty coach this season, etc. It's been "unfair" to them but fairness doesn't really matters. Wins and losses do. I see that. More importantly, I understand that.

I don't think they'll hold on to Nash or Stoudemire either after this year, for whatever it's worth. The front office fucked up by pushing D'Antoni out and bringing Porter in, with the players we had. The players didn't fuck up, the coaching staff and front office did. Shrug.

I bought the NBA League Pass after I moved in December, but probably won't buy it again next season if they trade Nash / Stoudemire. It just won't be the same, and I doubt they'll be as good of a team to watch. I mean honestly, I love the Suns but it's no fun watching your team lose, more often than not.

But, hey, you're a Pistons fan. At least my team has a winning record. (It upsets me that yours at 34-36 is a 7th seed in the East though. Totally frustrating.)

I don't live in AZ anymore, so I don't catch AZ sports radio.

I guess my point was either miscommunicated or not understood...

Do you believe that a team that plays a run and gun offense, and plays literally zero defense, can win a NBA title? Every team in this decade that has won was either (a) a defensive team- Detroit, San Antonio... or (b) had two of the top 5 players in the game at that time- Lakers, Miami that one fluke year against a fluke opponent (Dallas).

Even in the 90's it was either a defensive team (Houston, Detroit) or a team that has two of the top 5 players in the game (Chicago w/Jordan and Pippen). And those Bulls teams were decent at defense... maybe not top 10 but close.

The game has changed from the 80's. I just honestly don't believe that the Suns' mentality of assembling a run and gun offense (or any team for that matter- Golden State comes to mind) will ever win a title. When it comes down to a game 7 defensive stop, those teams simply are not able to do it. They are great regular season teams, but fail in the playoffs. Which is why I supported Kerr's decision to get rid of D'Antoni in favor of wanting to assemble a championship team via defense. It is just a shame that the Suns players refuse to buy into that philosophy and would much rather score 125 and give up 115 in the regular season.

BTW- you made a comment about the Pistons being under .500 and still in the playoffs. Interesting that there is only 1 team under .300 in the East but 5 in the West. Both conferences have the upper echelon teams (Lakers, Spurs, Cavs, Celtics), West has above average teams, East has average teams, and West has utter crap teams. Which unfortunately is where Phoenix is heading to next year.

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They don't play "literally" zero defense, you dunce. You just negated any future point you made by saying that.

Dummy.

You serious?

They don't play defense. Everyone knows that. Why are you saying that they do?

Or are you going to pull out the Leandro Barbosa offensive rebounding stats again... or the Steve Nash block shots figures also?

I mean seriously... they rank 27th in the league in defense. Out of 30 teams! WTF! And you are gonna pull the "O they play defense card" out on us? And call me a dummy while you are at it? Dude seriously... what has the Utah air done to your brain cells already?!?

And to even further my point.... under Alvin Gentry they are giving up 114.8 ppg in 19 games!!!! Golden State is the worst in the league at 112 per game... which means under Gentry they are THE worst defensive team in the league!

So I repeat... the Suns literally play no defense at all. I backed it up with stats. I anxiously await your stats and facts and data to prove that they do play defense...

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Suns played defense this season, a lot under Porter and they're a little bit better than their old ways with Gentry.

So if they're 27th out of 30, then they have to play some defense, right? You said they literally play no defense. Every team plays a little defense. Now, if you said, "They're one of the worst defensive teams in the league" then you may have a point.

You have no facts or data to back up your statements. Fail. I anxiously await the numbers to show me and everyone that the Suns play defense.

Of course those who actually have some knowledge of the NBA know that the Suns don't play defense, and that there are no numbers out there that prove that they do. But I do wish you a good luck finding said numbers...

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The numbers are the difference between the 27th team and the 30th team. Oh, and their W/L record. Lol.

I mean, are you saying the Kings play better defense than the Suns?