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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:39 PM 
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I'm just happy to see a president of the United States clearly declaring support for equal rights for married gays.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... c=fb&cc=fp

Quote:
I have to tell you that over the course of several years as I have talked to friends and family and neighbors when I think about members of my own staff who are in incredibly committed monogamous relationships, same-sex relationships, who are raising kids together, when I think about those soldiers or airmen or marines or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf and yet feel constrained, even now that Don't Ask Don't Tell is gone, because they are not able to commit themselves in a marriage, at a certain point I've just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married.


and

Quote:
You know, Malia and Sasha, they have friends whose parents are same-sex couples," the president said. "There have been times where Michelle and I have been sitting around the dinner table and we're talking about their friends and their parents and Malia and Sasha, it wouldn't dawn on them that somehow their friends' parents would be treated differently. It doesn't make sense to them and frankly, that's the kind of thing that prompts a change in perspective.


Bravo! Honestly it made me choke up a little to hear such a clear proclamation of this support. Over the years this subject has really become more and more important to me, and I have to say I honestly never thought I would hear a President of the country be so clear about his support for it.

I suppose the sad cynical side of me wonders if such a President could get elected saying such things before they are elected. I guess we will see this November...


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:06 PM 
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I agree with the president on this issue.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:21 PM 
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It is kind of a non-issue now adays, it isnt religous just want the same rights. Ironically North Carolina just banned it all together with amendment 1.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:38 PM 
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That is such a bad law that voters in NC passed. That law effectively bans all forms of union except a marriage of a man and woman. That includes any male+female civil union or domestic partnership that was protected under law.

I am embarrassed to say that my family (mother and father) are from North Carolina and I have many relatives still living there. (something tells me that one Aunt and Uncle actually voted for that bad law)


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:51 PM 
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krby71 wrote:
That is such a bad law that voters in NC passed. That law effectively bans all forms of union except a marriage of a man and woman. That includes any male+female civil union or domestic partnership that was protected under law.

I am embarrassed to say that my family (mother and father) are from North Carolina and I have many relatives still living there. (something tells me that one Aunt and Uncle actually voted for that bad law)


Yeah, I have to say people were just not educated on what it actually does. I don't see how the legislature went ahead and pushed this to vote knowing it bans all forms of Marriage.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:40 PM 
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how would you guys respond to a person, who deeply opposes marriage rights for all that says:
"Homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, they can marry ANY person of the opposite sex they want in the confine of the laws of the state they are in"

On another site I visit, that is one of the common retorts, and I am sick and tired of it. I know that my speaking out over there will do as much good as trying to tell a wall to become a feather, but I can tell when many of my points hit home because they refuse to address them. I'd love a way to end that statement.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:41 PM 
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It's really wonderful. More is needed. He's the president. I hope he will do more than make a personal choice to support it. I hope he will decide to put the weight of his office behind changing it for all Americans. Until then, it's not enough.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:39 PM 
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joxur wrote:
It's really wonderful. More is needed. He's the president. I hope he will do more than make a personal choice to support it. I hope he will decide to put the weight of his office behind changing it for all Americans. Until then, it's not enough.


Yes, he needs to get 1 USC ยง 7 changed. As long as that is in place then it will not matter what states pass for supporting same sex marriage.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:23 PM 
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well that was quick...
from ABC news: link
Quote:
The president stressed that this is a personal position, and that he still supports the concept of states deciding the issue on their own.


He now believes that gay couples should be able to marry. He doesn't believe they have a right to do so.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:56 AM 
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Easy solution - make sexual orientation a federally protected class against discrimination. As soon as that happens, laws banning gay marriage will be in violation of federal law. Though that would have some significant consequences politically for anyone who backs it I think.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:43 AM 
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I wrote this elsewhere, because the gay online world is awash with a mix of OMG HE DID IT combined with WTF YOU POLITICAL BASTARD. Figured I'd toss it out here if anyone cared what my opinion on it was.

------------------------------------------------------------
I get the cynicism behind Obama's personal announcement, I do. He never really seems to let us forget that he's a politician and that the moves are calculated responses. That being said...

It would be extremely disingenuous to have harped at him for the last 4 years about the "evolving" line and lacking the guts to just stand up and say what I know *he knows* is right, only to then turn around and criticize him when he actually does it (and long before anyone thought he would. Yes, I am looking at you "He'll give it all to us in his second term" folks). So I thank the President for stating what was always obvious to me about the constitutional lawyer in him: he knows that equality for the LGBT community is the right thing to do and I will bite my tongue that the politician in him had to throw in that states rights comment, out of fear, even while I continue to encourage him and all politicians to do MORE.

The response when someone comes to the right side of history is not to put them down for finally doing the right thing (that you wanted them to do all along). It sends entirely the wrong message to those still standing on the edge, teetering. People *are* going to come late to the party. Welcome them in rather than engage them with criticism about why they were late. Your party is better for them having arrived.

So....welcome, Mr. President, we have a lot more work to do.
------------------------------------------------------------


And because a thread about gay marriage seems a relevant place for it, here is a very interesting interactive map that shows you the current state of LGBT rights in America.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interac ... CMP=twt_gu

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:49 AM 
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I have been on a long discussion on Facebook with some people that I went to school with. These people are extreme devout Christians but asked for my input. Sadly they have not been changed, but at least the discussion has been civil. Maybe deep down I might have been able to have them start to question what they are standing on. Anyway I closed the discussion with this, and I wanted to share it here (they had asked why I left the church and even after I said that I didn't want to explain my full reasons I had to answer):

JJ et al this is my last post on this, look at what just happened at the Methodist General Council a few weeks ago. There was a movement to ask that the Methodist Church adopt as official church policy that the church recognize the gay population. There was a strong and heated debate on both sides of the issue and the anti-gay leadership side closed the convention after the anti-gay message was adopted as church policy.

I believe that a subset of mankind is trying to speak for God and they are using the church to manipulate people. This is what Jesus was revolting against when he was flesh - the abuses of the church.

Now there are groups of people that say they can speak for God and dictate the way people are supposed to accept their fellow man? To me those people are attempting to BE God and that is wrong. It is NOT our job to condemn the sinner because the sin is not against us. It is our job to love each other as we love ourselves.

That is my religious and personal view on homosexuality.

Taking that to a legal stance, even if you believe that homosexuality is wrong according to your religious beliefs, you cannot legally justify banning gay couples from legally marrying. That is denying them legal rights when they are breaking no law nor infringing on the rights of others.

Take your religious view off and look at what the law must be. It is written in the bible that man not eat shellfish, would it be right for the government to shut down seafood restaurants because the bible said man is not to eat shellfish? No it wouldn't.

And Mark, it is many Christian churches that are on the forefront of fighting government recognition of gay marriage. It is the actions of many Christian denominations towards gay youth that has directly led to many youths descending into a deep depression and some even resulting in taking their own life. One letter in particular said "if God doesn't love me for who I am then why should I live?" That was found at the feet of the teen that took his own life. The Christian Church did not change their attitude nor the way they treat their fellow creations! For that I left the church. For that I have tried to become a mouthpiece for what should be the way we treat our fellow man. For that is the reason why I have been active in here and I have tried to keep a civil, educated, and respectful tongue.

In closing, thank you for reading my message, thank you for not making this a personal attack, and please look at your actions and do not let your cloak of righteousness cloud how we should treat all people.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:59 AM 
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The best thing anyone can do to help change the course of this fight is to get those people to actually know someone gay. That can sound like a tall order, both for closeted gay folks and straight allies, but it is the single thing that actually changes minds on the issue. When it is no longer theoretical, when they are picturing a friend's face as they are saying the things they are saying... that's when it stops being a political football and starts being about "doing the right thing".

So... encourage/support closeted folks as they come out.

If you have out gay friends and you know people in real life that are like this, talk to those gay friends about maybe going out to dinner some night with the anti-gay marriage folks. Don't immediately dive into politics. Just have dinner. Chat. Socialize. Although if the gay friends are still in their "militant phase" (we all go through it >_< ), I would suggest maybe looking for someone able to hold a conversation where perhaps people don't always agree or the night could go another direction entirely. :p

I've had 3 co-workers who were strong religious fundamentalists. So much so that they actually had trouble just TALKING to me at work about work issues once they realized I was gay. Heck, one of them couldn't even meet my eyes. 1 of them is still anti-marriage. 2 of them? They changed their minds. They support marriage equality and they each have told me directly (I wish I could search my facebook timeline so I could quote one of them) that it was just the act of knowing me and my husband that changed their entire world view. Getting to know the living, breathing people turned it from a "war" in their minds to a "of course they want this. how could I have ever not wanted them to have it?" Did I ever debate marriage with them? Nope. We talked about work. We were on team outings together (I tend to host them at my house for BBQ and the pool). They just got to know me, not the politics. They got to see my husband and I together. Our home. Our lives. The rest sorted itself out.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:26 PM 
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Forgive me if I have doubts about the merits of "zomg first President to support it openly, this will surely sway hearts and minds."

Particularly from a liberal-leaning President who has always been on the fence regarding the issue, and is still on the fence because he still won't consider it a federal issue.

Conservatives certainly won't be convinced by it, and anyone remotely liberal is already committed. Who's going to be convinced by a president who has a foot placed on both ends for safety?

After years of campaigns and pressure on the government you've attained a "yep I'm kinda cool with it. Hey, vote for me this year please."

Congrats?


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:53 AM 
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Venen wrote:
Forgive me if I have doubts about the merits of "zomg first President to support it openly, this will surely sway hearts and minds."

Particularly from a liberal-leaning President who has always been on the fence regarding the issue, and is still on the fence because he still won't consider it a federal issue.

Conservatives certainly won't be convinced by it, and anyone remotely liberal is already committed. Who's going to be convinced by a president who has a foot placed on both ends for safety?

After years of campaigns and pressure on the government you've attained a "yep I'm kinda cool with it. Hey, vote for me this year please."

Congrats?


Though I am happy the President is understanding his personal support is great. But Venen is correct this is for his re-election and hopefully some progress will come from it if he does indeed get re-elected for another term. Only time will tell.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:49 PM 
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Quote:
how would you guys respond to a person, who deeply opposes marriage rights for all that says:
"Homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, they can marry ANY person of the opposite sex they want in the confine of the laws of the state they are in"


I would say a few things:
- Cite miscegenation law. The 14th Amendment of the US Constitution was successfully used to abolish bans on interracial marriage, when the argument was "separate but equal! Everyone has the same equal right to marry anyone they want of their own race. It didn't fly now, it's legal precedent from the US Supreme Court, and therefore it can't fly now.

Then pause, so someone can post "It's not the US government's business! Marriage law is a state matter!" And they'll be right. So:
- In the same vein as the above, the 14th Amendment has been tested and upheld as possessing the authority to supersede State law regarding marriage, which is ordinarily a State matter according to the 10th Amendment. This is because the text of the 10th is careful about it: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." (Emphasis mine.)
Note that the 10th Amendment doesn't say "by the Constitution up to this point". All of the Amendments are part of the Constitution, leaving the federal government the legal right to take things away from the states under very narrow conditions:
- 3/4 of states have to ratify an Amendment, rounded up. That means 38 out of 50 have to agree on the Amendment in both of their congressional houses. That's 100 votes that have to come out 76% in favor in order to ratify a new Amendment.

Pause for someone to post "It'd just get slapped down by the Supreme Court anyway."
- The only document in the country that you cannot call unconstitutional is the Constitution. Challenges to an Amendment on Constitutional grounds must be brought to bear during ratification hearings; it's too late once the Amendment is law. You'd need another Amendment to repeal it (see Prohibition). A US Supreme Court challenge would not have the authority.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:59 PM 
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Quote:
Easy solution - make sexual orientation a federally protected class against discrimination. As soon as that happens, laws banning gay marriage will be in violation of federal law. Though that would have some significant consequences politically for anyone who backs it I think.

It's already illegal by the letter of the law. See my last post re: Amendment 14. You can fight it like this:

- Apply for a marriage license with anyone of the same sex in the state of North Carolina. Get the paperwork denying you a license in writing. Get everyone's names. (You won't get them fired; they're doing their jobs in good faith.)

- Sue the state government in North Carolina state courts. Your complaint is that NC Constitution Amendment 1 exceeds the state's authority as a State of the Union, because it tramples a right granted by the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution. As legal precedent, cite interracial marriage bans struck down using the 14th.

- If the state supreme court agrees with you, great. If not, or if any court along the way declines to hear you:

- Sue the NC state governmnet before the US Supreme Court. Your complaint is that the state of North Carolina has denied you a right granted by the US Constitution, as above. The SCOTUS won't have many options; you've cited one of their own decisions as legal precedent, and the situation is exactly the same as it was then -- right down to violent opposition from powerful religious organizations. If they find in your favor, that decision strikes down North Carolina's authority to pass Amendment 1. I'm not sure what the process there is -- and remember that gay marriage there is still illegal, you'd have to challenge that law separately using the same process back in state court.

Once this process has been fought through once, it becomes legal precedent for later challenges, which should be much faster and simpler.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:00 PM 
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I have to add to the above, that this might only work if you target a state Constitution Amendment; otherwise you may not get the federal Supreme Court's attention. North Carolina may have accidentally done us all a huge favor.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:44 PM 
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There's an easier way.

You need a same sex couple who is married in a state recognizing marriage. They need to file their federal tax forms jointly (making sure to pay at least as much as they would have if filed seperately or they'll have other issues). When their joint return is not accepted they need to sue the US government directly for discrimination based on the "equal protections" clause.

Or...


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:54 PM 
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I don't know if that's easier, but involving the IRS might mean we're all dead by the time it's settled.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:35 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
There's an easier way.

You need a same sex couple who is married in a state recognizing marriage. They need to file their federal tax forms jointly (making sure to pay at least as much as they would have if filed seperately or they'll have other issues). When their joint return is not accepted they need to sue the US government directly for discrimination based on the "equal protections" clause.

Or...


I looked into this honestly, had even a lawyer review the possiblilities. But being educated on the sheer amount of time and money it would take I rather keep filing seperately and leave it be. :(

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:31 PM 
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As an aside, it's a damned shame that the group most entrenched against gay civil rights are African Americans... who most recently had to fight for their own rights.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:34 PM 
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Not that this makes it right, but being homosexual is a HUGE taboo in the African American culture.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:00 AM 
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Fuck 'em. The thing about equal rights is that cherry-picking them is off the table.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:26 AM 
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I'm with you :P

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:24 PM 
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Vanamar wrote:
Not that this makes it right, but being homosexual is a HUGE taboo in the African American culture.


Then they need to watch The Wire, because Omar's a straight up gay-ass bad ass.

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