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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:49 AM 
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/ ... K820120427

Strongly disagree with this. Not to be uncouth, but 3k deaths in a year in the entire country is not enough to add a ton of additional overhead costs to the court system, or, frankly, inconvenience me. I've got a bluetooth hands-free phone in my car. Am I the same as a drunk driver when talking on the phone?

Hell, working the radio can be distracting, especially if you have satellite. Talking to a passenger can be distracting. Programming and using a GPS can be distracting.

We need to stop over-legislating for stupidity.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:03 AM 
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Don't most states require the use of a hands free device at this point? That is a limitation I'd be fine with. Banning cell phone use completely just reeks of nanny state.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 AM 
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I dunno.. for the states that do, I wonder how enforcement works. Unless you're stopped at a light, I don't see cops just scanning cars that are driving by and pulling people over. Doesn't seem like that would hold up in court unless they demand phone records.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:07 AM 
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I don't know anyone who's been cited just for using their phone.

I do know some people who were pulled over for other things (speeding, weaving, etc) and the officer noted they were talking on the phone and added that on to the charge.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:23 PM 
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Michigan does not have a hands free only law. We only have a law that says you can't text and drive at the same time. And they can pull you over for seeing you doing it, but I don't personally know anyone that has gotten a ticket for it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:27 PM 
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People who text while driving almost deserve to be Darwinated.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:54 PM 
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Vanamar wrote:
People who text while driving almost deserve to be Darwinated.

yeah but I don't want to be hit by one of those idiots.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:24 PM 
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Neither do I, but...I don't really care for the idea of a nanny state either.

There's no physical way to prevent it, unless they figure out how to install cell jammers in cars that only disable themselves when the car isn't running or is in park, and don't for a minute think there won't be hacks to get around that within a week of release.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:59 PM 
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I don't want a nanny state either. I know the devices won't work.

I do want some way for people to stop doing this hazardous activity.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:21 PM 
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Jammers won't work... passengers won't be able to use cell phones.

There's no solution. People need to stop wringing their hands about something you can't prevent. And shouldn't, imho.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:31 PM 
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So legalize anything we can't prevent? Is that really
a good philosophy to base laws on?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:39 PM 
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I'm not sure which logical fallacy that is Fribur, but I'm sure it is one. It's close to a strawman, but not quite.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:45 PM 
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gets really bad when I'm dropping off my daughter at her middle school, and see a cop driving thru the school zone while texting not hands free in his patrol car.

Law here passed a couple years ago that bans all cell phone use while in active school zone


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:28 PM 
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My only issue with it is that texting and driving is outlawed primarily because stupid and slow people with bad reflexes do it. There are still plenty of people that analyze a situation carefully before doing it, and can see perfectly where they are going by holding the phone up so everything is still within viewing angle. If you can't think about two things at once or are just slow, then it's dangerous.

Unfortunately, the latter is probably a larger segment of the population than most realize.

It's probably a good thing that's it's banned, but it's depressing when you realize that the reason is because of dumb people.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:33 PM 
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If they ban it in such a way that if you cause an accident, and an investigation reveals cell phone use during the time of the accident, I'm fine with that.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:55 PM 
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Quote:
My only issue with it is that texting and driving is outlawed primarily because stupid and slow people with bad reflexes do it. There are still plenty of people that analyze a situation carefully before doing it, and can see perfectly where they are going by holding the phone up so everything is still within viewing angle. If you can't think about two things at once or are just slow, then it's dangerous.


lol... really?

Everyone who is actually doing the texting while driving believes that are doing it in a "safe" way, or they wouldn't be doing it.

This reminds me of the surveys where they ask people if they think they are above average drivers. Apparently just about all of us think we are above average drivers....


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:05 PM 
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I text when I'm stuck in traffic. Anyone who texts when they are capable of going the speed limit is moronic.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:11 AM 
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We aren't carbon copies of each other. Everyone's brain works a little differently, somehow. Sure, there are plenty of things human beings aren't capable of, but the idea of your brain taking on two tasks at the same time with relatively little required motor cortex strain isn't outside the realm of reason. You have full field of view, and unless you're physically impaired, one hand is all that's required to turn a steering wheel in 90+ percent of driving situations. The only question remaining is level of distraction, which varies from person to person.

To say that it's risky for *everyone* because of half-baked tests or poor media reporting is a bit presumptious.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:57 PM 
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It's pretty infuriating when someone almost sideswipes you because they are on their phone...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:56 PM 
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In Washington, talking on your phone while driving is punishable by a $500 fine, but is classified as a secondary offense. That means two things. First, a cop can't pull you over for talking on your phone; he can only pull you over for primary offenses, and then add the cell-phone thing on if he finds out it applies. Second, if he decides to waive the primary offense and give you a warning, he cannot still apply the secondary charge. He has to actually ticket you or charge you with something else in order to fine you for the phone.

I think it's a good system. If the argument is that cell-phone use causes other infractions, then punish cell-phone use in conjunction with those infractions, and nowhere else.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:28 PM 
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Yeah, I agree with that too.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:08 PM 
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So I wonder what everyone's stance on drunk driving is?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:12 PM 
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I think drinking while driving should only be a crime if it is connected to other offenses.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:26 PM 
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We should regulate everything.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:25 AM 
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Why you both be trollin!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:17 AM 
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Drunk driving is the same as driving while talking on the phone.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:55 AM 
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It is not.

Speaking as a competently-controlled hurricane of ethanol-related (but not vehicular) offenses, I sincerely hope that if I am ever so retarded as to try to drive after rendering myself incapable of safely operating 1.5 tons of fucking steel, that some heroic soul would stop me before I kill people you love.


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:50 AM 
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Actually...

Science sides with the "distracted and/or tired driving is on par with drunk driving as far as risk is concerned" stance.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:18 AM 
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You get tired just existing. Unless you clean enclosed spaces with pure ethanol for a living, you cannot accidentally drive under the influence.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:08 AM 
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Your posts are starting to get a little incoherent. I can't tell what you are responding to.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:35 AM 
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Here in New Mexico they do enforce the no calling on cellphone without Bluetooth. They will post police law enforcement at intersections and site people who are on the phones without bluetooth, or are texting while driving.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:02 PM 
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I thought his post was pretty straightforward =p One involves a choice whereby you put a chemical into your body that, without any doubt, causes impaired mental ability. The other includes something(a distraction) that can be attributed to a myriad number of stimuli, from an awkward road sign to an itch on your forehead.

As compared to drunk driving, it allows for complete control of your situation. You are capable of changing any number of factors while texting to make for an optimum safe environment(such as the aforementioned viewing angle, reading the situation, and your text-input capabilities).

Pretty obvious distinction between the two.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:44 PM 
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Venen wrote:
I thought his post was pretty straightforward =p One involves a choice whereby you put a chemical into your body that, without any doubt, causes impaired mental ability. The other includes something(a distraction) that can be attributed to a myriad number of stimuli, from an awkward road sign to an itch on your forehead.

As compared to drunk driving, it allows for complete control of your situation. You are capable of changing any number of factors while texting to make for an optimum safe environment(such as the aforementioned viewing angle, reading the situation, and your text-input capabilities).

Pretty obvious distinction between the two.


But everyone is different, Venen! Not everyone has the same reaction to alcohol as anyone else!

Or does your reasoning for texting while driving not work there?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:41 PM 
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Thus the finer point I made about a chemical that mentally impairs by nature and that of options. The question remains to which degree individually, sure, but it's a situation in which you have no choice in the matter. My point, as illustrated, is that you take any number of steps to rectify a supposedly "distracting" situation, whereas in the former it affects you innately.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:14 AM 
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If individual variabilities of chemical susceptibility were acceptable challenges to the standard, the standard could not exist. If a guy's taillight is out, and a cop pulls him over and finds out that his BAC is .24, it doesn't matter whether he was weaving -- he was pulled over for a primary offense and then they found out he was over the limit. The fact that he never left his lane has to be immaterial, or else the law is so vulnerable that every challenge against it succeeds. You have to draw the line, somewhere.

Texting? Same difference -- you just don't draw a line at all. You borrow one from a different offense. If you're driving dangerously and are talking on your phone, it's accepted prima facie that your phone contributed, and you get fined accordingly.

Honestly, sometimes it's like you guys only think through one side of an argument before you talk. :D


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 6:36 PM 
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I passed 4 cars with people who are texting while driving on my way home tonight. Im on the highway where the speed limit is 70 and the car in front of me is doing 60 and all over the lane. i go to pass and the fucks texting. Those people should die in fires before they get the chance to kill someone else.

Also i dont agree with the "omly 3k or so accidents a year". You may change your mind if it was your family killed because someone else was texting while he/she was driving.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:35 PM 
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No one's contesting whether appeals to emotion are successful -- of course I'd feel differently if my child had been killed by a driver who was texting. That doesn't make my position logically based, and carries only imaginary force with anyone besides me and my family. An appeal to emotion is an attempt to convince an audience to borrow your priorities and measure the issue with them, rather than using their own. You can't do it here, and still complain when lawmakers legislate from the Bible.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:30 AM 
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Even if it is a "tiny" amount of deaths, it is needless, unnecessary deaths caused by stupid people that think they are better than everyone else at driving (see: Venen), and that think their desire to say "lol" on a message is more important than the safety and lives of everyone around them.

Fuck around with your own life all you want-- I have no problem with it. But it seems completely reasonable to outlaw activity that fuck's around with the lives of the people around you without their consent.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:10 PM 
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Obviously, the Quaker is suggesting we go back to horse & carriage.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:33 PM 
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Ban speaking on phones too?


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:31 PM 
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If it isnt hands free absolutely


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:32 PM 
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What about radios?

gps?


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:52 AM 
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The built in GPS in my cadillac doesn't allow me to enter destinations while the car isn't in park. Seems reasonable to me.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:56 AM 
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What about your radio?

What about people without built in GPS that doesn't have that safety feature?

What about eating in your car? Do you think we should ban cupholders because they lead to people drinking coffee or soda in the car?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:54 AM 
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I'm just trying to figure out what your boundary is between government regulation and reasonable levels of personal responsibility and accountability, Fribur. If you have to make a law to keep people from being stupid, where do you draw the line?


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:22 AM 
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I've drawn the line. I haven't mentioned all of those other things. For me, they are on the other side of the line. Texting or even dialing phone numbers on your phone is across the line. It is recklessly irresponsible.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:53 AM 
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Quote:
between government regulation and reasonable levels of personal responsibility and accountability


Personal responsibility is a nice phrase, but no one takes that responsibility. No one is gonna stop texting because they heard about the 8 people that die every day so that "I'm a good driver, it's ok" dude can text LOL to his buddy. Because, of course, they're a better driver than the guy that killed someone.

That says nothing of the second parties that get killed. What chunk of responsibility do they get to have in all this?

I don't know, just seems like no one takes automobile safely seriously. We have 2-4x as many people dying each year from automobile related incidents than we have from murders, but no one seems to worry about it. Everyone is a "better driver" than the next guy, and everyone wants to talk about how their freedoms are in danger.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:09 PM 
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Vanamar wrote:
What about your radio?

What about people without built in GPS that doesn't have that safety feature?

What about eating in your car? Do you think we should ban cupholders because they lead to people drinking coffee or soda in the car?



Most cars have the radio dials built into the stearing wheel now. Also who really listens to the radio anymore?

If you need to set your GPS shouldnt it be done before you leave to head out to your destination.

Im sorry but if you have to tkae your eyes off the road to put your cup in the cup holder you need to get a check up. Comparing tbat to texting your pals is just fucking idiotic. You are now argueing just for the sake of arguement.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:32 PM 
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My point is that banning things that are distracting while not banning other things that are distracting is absolutely retarded.

Also, I think you need to check your facts regarding how many cars come with steering wheel controls on the base model. On the five cars I just spot checked, you don't get steering wheel controls on the baseline model or the mid end trim package, until you go to the "luxury" brands.

Your "how many people listen to the radio" argument is also specious. You can take my "adjusting the radio" to also mean "browsing their ipod" or "changing CDs" or whatever people do in their car.

Just make a "distracted driving" charge that can go on top of other things and I'll be happy. Don't single out specific activities while leaving others out. We should also create a "tired driving" clause that does the same thing too, while we're at it, since driving tired is worse than driving drunk.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:35 PM 
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I also like your quasi Ad Hominem attack. Makes me feel like the old Lanys days.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:45 PM 
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Most radios are significantly MORE complex than they were in years gone by. Satellite radio..? Should that be illegal?

And we're not talking about texting. As many have said, several times in this thread, it's already illegal in many states. The point of this thread is about also banning speaking on the phone.

Looking at a GPS is distracting, not just adjusting it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:59 PM 
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The whole " who listens to the radio thing" was a bit of a joke. But to jox, i do think speaking with out hands free should be illegal. I hate those assholes who drive five under the limit and refise to move over. Most of the times its some asshole with a phone growing out the side of his head.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:16 PM 
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fuckit, lets get to autonomous driving now.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:21 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
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On a side note.. has anyone ever seen an accident that did not involve at least one woman? Perhaps banning technology isn't the answer.....


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:38 PM 
The Lurker at the Threshold

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joxur wrote:
On a side note.. has anyone ever seen an accident that did not involve at least one woman? Perhaps banning technology isn't the answer.....


The only accident I've ever been involved in was the fault of some random dude who was speeding and couldn't stop for his red light and t-boned me.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:56 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
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Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
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Location: DFW
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I see accidents every day. I-635 in Dallas is a damn deathtrap between the Bush tollway and Hwy 75. Hell my office overlooks 635 & the tollway and daily I can see accidents within my view. It is a very rare day that traffic isn't stopped on one direction or the other (or both) for an accident. Yesterday 635 westbound was at a near standstill from 9:00 until well past the time I left (glad I had to make a trip north to Plano before I started my drive west).

The problem here is a combination of construction and freaking idiot drivers. They are stupid. I watched this one driver merge onto 635 from the tollway as if they had the complete right of way. The thing is that the lane the driver was merging onto was the exit for Midway and other cars were either in the lane or merging into it. That driver (trying very hard to not implicate one sex or the other) caused two cars behind to stop short and a wreck happened behind them. I was lucky to be already on 635 so I was passing it after it happened. Luckily traffic wasn't going that fast so I doubt anyone was hurt. Oh, the driver that caused the accident seemed totally unaware because they were holding their cell phone up to their left ear talking away.

The person that caused the accident was not involved and motored away fully unaware of what they caused and I bet if they were to read articles proclaiming that using a cell phone while driving is dangerous, they would fully believe that they are a good enough driver to be able to do both.

Do we need legislation? We need people to have an ounce of common sense. I don't care if you are a professional race car driver, there is no way you can pay the needed attention to merge onto a major roadway like 635 during rush hour while holding a phone to your ear.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:11 PM 
Shelf is CAMPED!!
Shelf is CAMPED!!
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635 is a piece of shit and anyone who drives on it is rolling a d20 save against death.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:56 AM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!
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Even if it is a "tiny" amount of deaths, it is needless, unnecessary deaths caused by stupid people that think they are better than everyone else at driving (see: Venen), and that think their desire to say "lol" on a message is more important than the safety and lives of everyone around them.

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Fuck around with your own life all you want-- I have no problem with it. But it seems completely reasonable to outlaw activity that fuck's around with the lives of the people around you without their consent.
Bloom County lampooned this with an election-debate joke in which the speaker espoused the virtues of a 12 mph speed limit, listing off accident statistics and then painting his opponent as a monster because he ignores all that "so he can speed along to his manucurist at 55 mph."

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Most cars have the radio dials built into the stearing wheel now. Also who really listens to the radio anymore?
Some cars have radio controls built into the steering wheel after about 2005. That's still less than a third of cars on the road right now. My car was made in 1999.

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My point is that banning things that are distracting while not banning other things that are distracting is absolutely retarded.
That depends on the nature of the distraction. Children in the backseat are distracting but legal. I think the spirit of the law here bans visual distractions absolutely, and aural distractions within reason -- speakerphone is cool, headphones aren't cool. The line appears to be about exclusivity of input -- I can listen to four people talk and remember what all of them said, but I can watch only one.

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Most radios are significantly MORE complex than they were in years gone by. Satellite radio..? Should that be illegal?
The interface for a satellite radio isn't appreciably more complicated than the interface for an AM radio. You have a choice of stations; pick one. The additional complexity is added by a user's choice of interface, making complexity indefensible from an accountability perspective.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:57 AM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!
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Sorry, that first quote should include the paragraph above it. I'll figure scroll bars out with enough practice, someday.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:08 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
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You see, this is why we need to fund more teleportation research. Beam me the fuck up already, Scotty.


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