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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:23 PM 
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Sad to see people still arguing against universal healthcare; it almost seems akin to arguing for the imperial system of units...

krby71 wrote:
I will remain with this opinion, the US government should not be providing universal health care. Assistance with poor families that can't otherwise get healthcare through state agencies, on a limited basis.

The American People have an entitlement problem. Everyone feels entitled to get something from the government. Too many people have their hand out expecting Uncle Sam to be the one providing money, jobs, healthcare, whatever. We have lost the perspective that each person is responsible for their own. Is it hard? Hell yes it is hard. This entitlement belief is adding to why kids don't learn in school.

The only thing the federal government MUST provide is protection from invaders. Most everything else in the US Constitution are things that the federal government can not do.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:14 PM 
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I am arguing against it because we can not afford it!

We are $14 TRILLION in the hole. The Federal Government is doing next to nothing to restrain costs. The last thing that we need is another explosively expanding and never ending enterprise on our hands. If the Federal Government became the sole responsibility for providing healthcare to all citizens we wouldn't have enough money for that let alone everything else people want the government to do.

Canada is looking for ways to get their federal government out of the health care business. They realize that single provider is not working. It is costing more money and creating lesser access to healthcare.

There are other ways that we can make healthcare more affordable and remain at a high standard. We have gone over these details ad nauseum. I can accept that there are still a few people that want the government to hand out healthcare at the detriment of everything else. I believe that they are greatly mistaken. I guess you will have to accept that there are a lot of us that don't want that system.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:48 PM 
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I'm against it because a huge red flag goes up for me when I see countless lemmings doing the same thing. I still believe a proper implementation of healthcare that is at least partially privatized has significant potential to deliver. People yammering "But itz shuld be uh right for da peoplez!" doesn't make it an efficient, logical, or even fair system. No system has been perfected thus far, even in smaller nations with more money to spend per person(Hail, bureaucratized 300 million people). Large lines for simple procedures or waiting weeks for a simple doctor visit when you can get an appointment less than an hour away here doesn't make much sense either.

It's far from perfect in the US, but there are still advantages. I can tell you I've seen a fair share of Canadians in Seattle lining up outside hospitals, and it no longer raises my eyebrow when I hear it happening elsewhere in the US.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:58 PM 
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Actual data would disagree with you. The US pay the most per capita of any country in the world yet its outcomes are the worst in the comparison group of 1st world nations.

Image

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/overv ... rview.aspx

Yes, the US has some of the very best medical facilities in the world but not everyone has access to them. And no, Canada is not looking to get rid of universal health care.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:45 PM 
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Your dirty reports and statistics are not welcome here! We have the highest paid doctors and most expensive hospitals in the world ergo we have the best healthcare in the world!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:47 PM 
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Are those countries with universal healthcare in that list receiving D's and C's? But I thought universal healthcare was the magic bullet that would solve all of our ills.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:12 PM 
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With whom does that data disagree with? I've been saying all along we're paying shit and not getting anything from it. More reason to cut it. From what krby was saying I wouldn't be surprised if he agreed that the US is paying through the teeth and not getting a lot in return.

I'm also still searching for anywhere that someone claimed the US has the best healthcare system in the world.

The only country that's surprising from that chart is Japan. Their population is still 1/3rd~ of the US, but that's a large amount of people to base a universal healthcare system around. The fact that they're pulling it off is also impressive. Other than that, you have a bunch of smaller countries that can do it. Yippee, that's exactly the same as doing it with 300 million people in a bureaucratic mess of a falling empire facing a debt crisis!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:22 PM 
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Venen wrote:
With whom does that data disagree with? I've been saying all along we're paying shit and not getting anything from it. More reason to cut it. From what krby was saying I wouldn't be surprised if he agreed that the US is paying through the teeth and not getting a lot in return.

I'm also still searching for anywhere that someone claimed the US has the best healthcare system in the world.

The only country that's surprising from that chart is Japan. Their population is still 1/3rd~ of the US, but that's a large amount of people to base a universal healthcare system around. The fact that they're pulling it off is also impressive. Other than that, you have a bunch of smaller countries that can do it. Yippee, that's exactly the same as doing it with 300 million people in a bureaucratic mess of a falling empire facing a debt crisis!

Yeah.. Germany's 82 million people is a drop in the bucket; and Japan's population is 128 million, a decent chunk larger than 1/3.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:54 PM 
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Venen wrote:
I'm also still searching for anywhere that someone claimed the US has the best healthcare system in the world.


Venen wrote:
No system has been perfected thus far, even in smaller nations with more money to spend per person(Hail, bureaucratized 300 million people). Large lines for simple procedures or waiting weeks for a simple doctor visit when you can get an appointment less than an hour away here doesn't make much sense either.

It's far from perfect in the US, but there are still advantages. I can tell you I've seen a fair share of Canadians in Seattle lining up outside hospitals, and it no longer raises my eyebrow when I hear it happening elsewhere in the US.


You implied that nations with universal health care had inferior outcomes to the US. I provided data to dispute that. You can either agree that the US system sucks ass or you can dispute it with data.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:16 PM 
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Quote:
Yeah.. Germany's 82 million people is a drop in the bucket; and Japan's population is 128 million, a decent chunk larger than 1/3.


I'd say so, yea. 48 million people is a pretty sizable increase, especially when you consider bureaucratic tendencies aren't going to increase on a 1:1 ratio with higher populations. That, and the fact that Japan has an A rating.

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You implied that nations with universal health care had inferior outcomes to the US. I provided data to dispute that. You can either agree that the US system sucks ass or you can dispute it with data.


Where? =x I said there are advantages, not that it was superior. There are advantages to universal healthcare in smaller countries, too. And disadvantages in both! While I personally believe privatization is the way to go, I'm going to claim the US is doing it correctly, either.

But no, I don't think the system "sucks ass" in the US. I think it's a long shot from where it could be, like many healthcare systems, and we are held back significantly by our population and corrupt government mismanagement.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:23 PM 
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Also, is that report card from the "Conference Board of Canada" really considered "data"? No offense, but if I had to pick out a biased source, it would be from the government of one of the nations that has been one of the most outspoken advocates of universal healthcare. Especially given some of the rivalry between the US and Canada on this issue(note the fact that they point out the differences in healthcare on their website between the two specifically).

Needless to say, I'm not surprised that there's no statistic on their chart for "best healthcare that money can actually buy". I'd venture to guess that US would be an A to Canada's D on that one. I'll take it.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:49 PM 
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Venen wrote:
Also, is that report card from the "Conference Board of Canada" really considered "data"? No offense, but if I had to pick out a biased source, it would be from the government of one of the nations that has been one of the most outspoken advocates of universal healthcare. Especially given some of the rivalry between the US and Canada on this issue(note the fact that they point out the differences in healthcare on their website between the two specifically).

Needless to say, I'm not surprised that there's no statistic on their chart for "best healthcare that money can actually buy". I'd venture to guess that US would be an A to Canada's D on that one. I'll take it.

I think we can all agree we're better off sticking with your opinion as facts rather than bona fide and vetted sources.

And so long as you're content knowing your Senators and President are getting 'the best healthcare money can buy' while tens of millions go without and millions more go medically bankrupt than I guess all is well.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:31 AM 
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Quite a few of those metrics have to do with individual choice, not the health care system. We have a lot of chubby smokers in the US. It's not the hospital's fault they cannot save them from themselves. ;)

It is surprising to see the line on infant mortality though. I do not know their grading scale but the US is pretty close to Canada. And if they use us as a measuring stick there are entire continents that would get an F.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:21 PM 
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Quote:
Quite a few of those metrics have to do with individual choice, not the health care system. We have a lot of chubby smokers in the US. It's not the hospital's fault they cannot save them from themselves.


This would require thinking for oneself. Let's just stare at statistics and nod unquestioningly at the numbers straight from the heavens. Don't ask where they came from, what they consist of, nor their accuracy. They're statistics, and someone looked them up and posted them, so they must be good.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:52 AM 
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Is the implication then that Americans are just stupider on average, and so make poorer choices concerning their health?

I maintain that the average intelligence across humanity is relatively contstant, myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:31 AM 
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I'll agree with you, Fribur, but I'm pretty sure that the average intelligence isn't all that high.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:01 PM 
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I think we can all agree that intelligence is pretty much constant. We can also probably agree that the education system here needs work, despite some differences in how to fix it.

Certainly a lack of good education - better modes/trains of thought, more analytical ways of approaching a problem, a questioning/critical mindset, and of course more background information and knowledge - will lead to people making some pretty poor choices compared to the rest of the world. I'm not going to claim all of those things spawn in perfection due to an education, but it certainly contributes.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:58 PM 
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The implication is that many people in the US take poor care of themselves, and modern medicine can not save them from their life choices. Being overweight or a smoker are not stupid choices, or choices made by stupid people. They are just choices that have some fairly common negative results that are not reversible.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:06 AM 
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I understand that, but my post was pointing out something else, having to do with the comparison of America vs. other countries in general health.

I am failing at the moment to find a concise way to state it a different way, and I must work, but maybe that was enough for you to see what I was saying.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:22 PM 
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Yes indeed it was. Thank you.


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