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 Post subject: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:04 AM 
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I read this http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/12/g ... tml?hpt=T2 essay this morning and laughed. I've advocated that there be a test for voting rights for a very long time and it's rather heartening to see essays on the subject on mainstream websites.

For those that don't want to click:

Quote:
Editor's note: LZ Granderson writes a weekly column for CNN.com. A senior writer and columnist for ESPN The Magazine and ESPN.com, he has contributed to ESPN's "Sports Center," "Outside the Lines" and "First Take." He is a 2011 and 2010 nominee and the 2009 winner of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation award for online journalism and a 2010 and 2008 honoree of the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association for column writing. Watch Granderson on "CNN Newsroom" at 9 a.m. ET Tuesday.

Grand Rapids, Michigan (CNN) -- Should ignorant people be allowed to vote?

A provocative question for sure; however, I'm not bringing it up for shock value, but rather to give us all pause.

If I were to ask you to ingest an unknown medicine from someone who knew nothing about the medical field, you probably wouldn't do it. And I doubt many of us would feel comfortable as a shareholder in a company that asked people who knew nothing about business to hire its next CEO?

Yet we all know someone who gleefully admits they know nothing about politics, doesn't have time to find out what the current issues are or even know how the government works, but goes out and votes. Want to know why it seems Washington is run by a bunch of idiots? Blame this hiccup in our political system for starters. What's a solution? Weed out some of the ignorant by making people who want to vote first pass a test modeled on the one given to those who want to become citizens.

In an effort to win over ignorant voters, political campaigns are no longer targeting the movable middle as much as the easily misled. Instead of intelligent debates about important topics such as health care reform and cash-strapped states, we have an exchange of easy to remember catchphrases such as "Obamacare" and "War on Unions" -- all in the race to pander to people who can't explain what Congress does.

Or have a firm grasp of how tax dollars are spent.

In an effort to win over ignorant voters, political campaigns are no longer targeting the movable middle as much as the easily misled.
In a recent CNN poll, more than a third of the people questioned wanted to see cuts in military spending, which is a good debate to have. The problem is the poll also revealed most Americans think the military takes up 30 percent of the budget when in reality it's 19 percent. If we don't know how much money is being spent, how can we intelligently say it's too much? And what to make of the 20 percent of folks polled who believe public broadcasting represents 10 percent of the budget, when it's more like a 10th of 1 percent?

I'm not suggesting someone needs to be a Rhodes scholar to vote.

But voters should at least be able to name the three branches of government. Voters should understand what a "trade deficit" is and how laws are made.

Before getting all bent out of shape by my assertion that you or someone you love is ignorant, please know I am not referring to the dictionary's first definition of the word, which typically means an uneducated or unsophisticated person. I am operating with the second usage, defined as a lack of knowledge in a specific area.

No one is omniscient; we're all ignorant about something.

I know close to nothing about the inner workings of my car, and so I come to my mechanic, ignorant -- but not stupid. As this relates to voting, if people don't know much about current government and politics, they too are ignorant, not necessarily stupid. The difference is that naively paying too much for repairs on a car is not nearly as damaging to foreign policy as a bunch of ignorant voters hitting the polls.

Am I advocating for some sort of elitism?

You betcha.

One of the more counterproductive byproducts of having our political system hijacked by campaigns obsessed with ignorant voters is that the word "elite" has been saddled with terrible PR. True, one boilerplate definition essentially means "rich snobs" but another -- and the one more central to my point -- means the best or most skilled in a group. We don't seem to have a problem understanding the importance of having elite athletes on our favorite sports team, but some of us have been trained to have a gag reflex at the very mention of the country's elite thinkers running the country.

The Founding Fathers were not a bunch of average Joes with gripes about England; they were elite thinkers and philosophers. James Madison attended what is now Princeton. John Hancock went to Harvard. Thomas Jefferson enrolled at the College of William and Mary when he was 16. Today it seems the more education a candidate has, the harder he or she has to work to distance him or herself from it.

So how do we weed out ignorant voters without harking back to the days of poll taxes and Jim Crow? I would start by making the U.S. Naturalization Test -- given to immigrants who want to become citizens -- part of the voter registration process.

If knowing the number of years a senator is elected to serve is required of anyone who wants to become a U.S. citizen, is it too much to expect that information to be common knowledge for those of us who already are? This has nothing to do with who a person is or how they may vote but everything to do with a person voting as an informed citizen, not a sound bite regurgitator. Having a grasp of current events would be ideal, but if we could at least raise the required investment to engage in the political system, perhaps the tone of the rhetoric surrounding it can be elevated as well.

We wouldn't issue a driver's license to someone unable to pass the written test, knowing the potential damage that person could do behind the wheel. Why do we look at voting differently?

While the Constitution lists the reasons why a citizen cannot be denied the right to vote, it does not explicitly say it is a federal right. This is why felon disenfranchisement and mental competency laws, as they pertain to voting, vary from state to state.

I'm not suggesting we kick people out of the political process, only that we require them to have an agreed upon understanding of what that process is. If people are too busy to read up on the government, the Department of Homeland Security is not going to escort them out of the country -- or take away away their citizenship. At any point in which ignorant voters are fed up with being on the outside looking in, they can go to the post office, pick up a brochure with all of the questions and answers in it, and study free of charge.

Sounds harsh?

It is.

But at this crucial juncture with at least two wars, a budding energy crisis, a growing trade deficit, etc., do we really have the luxury of hand-holding? There simply needs to be more required of us as responsible voters than being born 18 years ago. Perhaps if we weed out the ignorant voters, politicians will no longer feel the need to dumb down the conversation in hopes of getting their attention.

And then if we're really lucky, maybe the ignorant politicians will go away as well.

At least one can dream.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of LZ Granderson.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:06 AM 
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I read the same thing earlier and face-palmed. That oversimplifies an extremely complicated proposal, one that arguably undermines the entire premise of America.

I think we can safely agree it's in everyone's interest (except some of the politicians') to have an educated electorate, and while it may seem expedient to achieve that goal by thinking in the terms Granderson put forth, there are far too many aspects of any possible test to truly make it comprehensive -- assuming, of course, that we could even agree on what those aspects are.

It's so easy to sit behind a desk and say, "don't let the stupid people _____." You can fill in the blank there: vote, drive, get a loan, breathe, etc. Just don't forget that we all like to see the problem existing outside the self.

IMHO, efforts of this nature would be better spent educating voters. Invite your neighbors over for a drink and a chat. The foundation of democracy was built in small communities talking about issues, and then voting.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:11 AM 
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"X People should not be able to Y."

"I, of course, am in no part an X person."

"Also, I think I'm a pretty good judge of what makes an X person."


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:41 AM 
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I completely agree with Leo - nice post.

His premise and example are bad:

Quote:
The problem is the poll also revealed most Americans think the military takes up 30 percent of the budget when in reality it's 19 percent. If we don't know how much money is being spent, how can we intelligently say it's too much? And what to make of the 20 percent of folks polled who believe public broadcasting represents 10 percent of the budget, when it's more like a 10th of 1 percent?
These are terrible barometers. Why is even a knowledge of that level of minutia even necessary or good?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:28 PM 
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The author's broad point is something that I agree with, his details leave something to be desired. I would like to see some basic civics questions to be passed before a person can vote.
Questions like:
Who is the current US President?
Who is the current US Vice-President?
Who is one of your State's US Senators?
Who did we fight in the Revolutionary War?
Who gave the Gettysburg Address?

And other questions that people would have to answer on their ballot and if they don't get at least three correct then their ballot is not counted. The voter would not need to know if they passed/failed at that time but as part of the voting system that would check the answers first then move to the ballot. These questions could come from the US Citizenship test (and should be things that they know coming out of High School since the voting age is 18)

I also support voters having to provide valid photo identification prior to voting. It pains me that there are organizations that fight every law that requires people to prove who they are to vote. With the well documented cases of voter fraud all around the US, providing photo ID should be a simple and required step before voting.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:33 PM 
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Quote:
Who is one of your State's US Senators?
Who did we fight in the Revolutionary War?
Who gave the Gettysburg Address?
But what do any of those questions have to do with your fitness to make an educated decision in a current day election? What bearing, for example, does knowledge of your state government have in a federal election?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:52 PM 
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But where do you stop?

Why stop at just excluding the stupid. Why not exclude those of average intelligence also and leave the decision making to the brightest and best educated of society. Obviously they would make better decisions wouldn't they?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:01 PM 
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I don't necessarily agree with the columnists examples of appropriate questions but what we are currently doing "If you breathe you can vote" clearly isn't working. A basic understanding of the economy, the world, the current state of our country should be required of all voters.

It's not "elitist" and I could give anecdotal evidence of the failures of the current system but really anecdotal evidence is fairly meaningless.

We are rapidly descending into voters voting themselves bread & circuses at the expense of the future. How would those of you who object to this kind of 'test' resolve the situation?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:08 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Quote:
Who is one of your State's US Senators?
Who did we fight in the Revolutionary War?
Who gave the Gettysburg Address?
But what do any of those questions have to do with your fitness to make an educated decision in a current day election? What bearing, for example, does knowledge of your state government have in a federal election?


Obviously you can't list every type of question for every type of race, but some sort of general knowledge civics questions should be asked.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:20 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
I don't necessarily agree with the columnists examples of appropriate questions but what we are currently doing "If you breathe you can vote" clearly isn't working. A basic understanding of the economy, the world, the current state of our country should be required of all voters.

It's not "elitist" and I could give anecdotal evidence of the failures of the current system but really anecdotal evidence is fairly meaningless.

We are rapidly descending into voters voting themselves bread & circuses at the expense of the future. How would those of you who object to this kind of 'test' resolve the situation?


You do understand how "tests" were used in the past correct? At the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the people to properly govern themselves. Imposing limits of ANY kind on this process is counter to it. If the vast majority of the populace is ignorant, this will eventually correct itself. It must, or we do a disservice to the process itself. These folks, whether you feel are voting in their own self-interest ARE voting their representative as they deem most appropriate. Your standard of intellect is of ZERO relevance to this process if they are of sound mind (meaning, they can breath and reason (and by reason, I mean have basic motor and mental function) w/o assistance ;P)

To do anything else would result in an even worse artificial aristocracy in my view. What we really need to do as a nation is actively fight against the trend of embracing Jersey Shore celebrity and start working to highlight intellectual celebrity icons, such as Carl Sagan. If the ignorant populace wasn't afraid of the natural aristocracy (as Jefferson viewed it), they wouldn't feel they'd need to fight the "elitists".


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:25 PM 
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Quote:
It must, or we do a disservice to the process itself.


This is a really important point. How effective can we really say democratic/republic style governments are if we have to start limiting who can vote?

Honestly, this is just another way for people to try to create systems that give themselves a sense of superiority over others. I also think it's indicative of a somewhat disturbing trend that involves the populace constantly turning on itself and blaming "lesser deserving" people for all our woes.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:35 PM 
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Knowing random facts isn't going to make you a better voter - Better distinguishment, judgement, some intuition, and general intellect will. Knowledge is helpful, but is often a byproduct of these things anyway. There's a whole breadth of subject matter on the best modes of governance, and it doesn't stop NOR end with the Constitution.

Random facts does nothing for the discipline and art that is politics and decision-making. You're asking people to memorize a multiplication chart, and then solve a differential equation. Reading that little snippet from "both sides" in your comfy little ballot box is about 1/20th of the battle of a good decision/research.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:37 PM 
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Kitiari wrote:
But where do you stop?

Why stop at just excluding the stupid. Why not exclude those of average intelligence also and leave the decision making to the brightest and best educated of society. Obviously they would make better decisions wouldn't they?

Where do I sign up?

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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:48 PM 
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One of the latest trends that has been gaining traction locally are mock elections that are held in schools leading up to a given municipal, provincial or federal election. That to me seems a really good step in the right direction.

In addition to that, one thing that I feel is really missing from the education curriculum is mandatory economics course(s). During my undergrad, we were obligated to take an economics course which to this day has been of extreme value and in hindsight, is quite boggling as to why it was not required in high school. If people had a better idea as to what makes the world go ‘round (ie. everything to do with money), I’d like to think that politics would see a shift as a result.

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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:05 PM 
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maybe if we stopped neutering our history and civics programs in public schools we'd have a more informed electorate. =/

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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:37 PM 
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I honestly wish only those who were intelligent, or, willing to serve their country had a right to vote in federal elections.

Graduate High School? Two years of service in any branch automatically. Or College. even it it's just a massive two years civics degree.

"Stupid" people an still get every right to vote, by willingly serving their country.

Just make sure its constitutional that no law made can affect only non voters or voters. And said Constitutional law could not be voted down for any reason.

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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:08 PM 
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I'm curious how your economics courses have been of such value if you are not in a business or economics related field of work/study. Because to be honest, my microeconomics and macroeconomics courses did not contain much information that I found would be relevant to the average person's life.

How to balance a budget, manage household accounts, etc? I can see that as being necessary and something that should be required in school, but requiring a course in economics would be like requiring cannons to hunt pheasant.

Quote:
I honestly wish only those who were intelligent, or, willing to serve their country had a right to vote in federal elections.

That's exactly what we need. A legally recognized way to determine what rights a person is going to get based on where they worked for the previous two to four years or their intelligence. That couldn't possibly go wrong.

Quote:
Just make sure its constitutional that no law made can affect only non voters or voters. And said Constitutional law could not be voted down for any reason.
That's not possible. You can't actually prevent people from amending the Constitution. If you've made it so that only certain groups of people can vote, they have no reason to not expand their own rights except out of altruism. And we've not really shown ourselves to be very altruistic.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:29 AM 
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Elitist douche upset by popular moronic ideals. Who cares...

The reason America worked... it gave people a voice reguardless of stature or ability. You vote from your perspective and opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:31 AM 
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Quote:
The reason America worked... it gave people a voice reguardless of stature or ability.


I noticed you are using the past tense. When exactly are you talking about? When America began and most of the population wasn't allowed to vote?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:47 AM 
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Everyone wants to remove the common man from the process, no one wants to believe they are the common man.

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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:53 AM 
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Devyn wrote:
I'm curious how your economics courses have been of such value if you are not in a business or economics related field of work/study. Because to be honest, my microeconomics and macroeconomics courses did not contain much information that I found would be relevant to the average person's life.

How to balance a budget, manage household accounts, etc? I can see that as being necessary and something that should be required in school, but requiring a course in economics would be like requiring cannons to hunt pheasant.

Well you can call it what you want, but that's what people are in need of. The time value of money, how a mortgage and amortization work, compounding interest, stock markets and retirement savings programs; these are crucial things to everyday life that are all but completely absent from the base curriculum.

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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:46 AM 
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I'm not even sure why people think that knowing random facts about the government or math will make them vote in a "more intelligent" manner. (Which really just translates to, "Votes for the people I vote for.")

It's also pretty damn arrogant for people to make these assumptions about people not voting intelligently enough to begin with. Why aren't they voting "well enough" for your taste? Because they're not voting for the people you like? I'm sure right-wing slanted people think that left-wing voters are pretty stupid and vice-versa, same with any other topic or classification that creates political divisions.

Who exactly is so brilliant, so intelligent, so perfect in their voting choices that they get to stand up and tell the rest of us that we need to pass some kind of test to be on their level?

Yeah. Just a pile of bullshit. If you want to feel good about how smart and well-informed you are, then here's your ticket to do so: Go right ahead and feel good about yourself. Don't try to get voting restrictions in place in an attempt to lift your self-esteem up.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:16 AM 
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Local radio "man on the street" interview with a current High School student asking him about the start of the Civil War 150 years ago.

The questions start around 11:00 (long bit)
http://www.theunticket.com/the-musers-c ... tionnaire/

sample questions:
Gordon Keith: This month marks the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War; in which month did the Civil War start?
DeWaiene: uh, October

GK: Who did we fight int he Civil War?
DeWaiene: uh, say England. I am going to say England

GK: Which came first: The Civil War or World War I?
DeWaiene: uhm, World War I

GK: In which decade did the Civil War take place?
DeWaiene: Um, I'll say the early 50's late 60's
GK: 1950s-1960s?
DeWaiene: yes

GK: Who was President of the Union?
DeWaiene: Bill Clinton

GK: Who was President of the Confederacy?
DeWaiene: no clue, I'll guess Mr. Brown

GK: Name the Confederate Commanding General
DeWaiene: (long pause) Sgt. Frank Hillson

GK: Where did the formal surrender take place?
DeWaiene: France
GK: Be more specific
DeWaiene: Over-seas

GK: What was The Emancimation Proclamation?
DeWaiene: No clue, don't have a guess, uhm, Bill of Rights?

GK: Which one was a a General in the Civil War: Santa Ana, Tecumseh Sherman, or Lando Calrissian?
DeWaiene: Tecumseh Sherman

GK: How many states were in the Confederacy?
DeWaiene: 15

GK: What do you want to be when you grow up?
DeWaiene: A Dallas Policeman
GK: Why
DeWaiene: would be fun, turn on the sirens and run all the lights

The kid admitted that he has already fathered a child and was looking for a cigarette

Starting around 21:00 is discussions of other interviews.

Here is one with Katrina a 20 year old woman with fuchsia colored hair

GK: How many tattoos do you have?
Katrina: 42

Gordon Keith: This month marks the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War; in which month did the Civil War start?
Katrina: I don't know, May

GK: In which decade did the Civil War take place?
Katrina: I don't know, 1900's

GK: Who was President of the Union?
Katrina: George Washington

GK: Who did we fight int he Civil War?
Katrina: England, France

GK: Name the Union Commanding General
Katrina: I don't know what that is... Thomas Jefferson

GK: Who was President of the Confederacy?
Katrina: (getting help from someone) Thomas Jefferson

GK: Where did the formal surrender take place?
Katrina: A City? Texas (and the interview is in Dallas, TX) A State? Dallas.

GK: What was The Emancimation Proclamation?
Katrina: Free the Slaves

GK: Which came first: World War I, The American Revolution or The Civil War?
Katrina: World War I

GK: Which one was a a General in the Civil War: Santa Ana, Tecumseh Sherman, or Lando Calrissian?
Katrina: the first one

GK: How many states were in the Confederacy?
Katrina: 52

just wow


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:54 AM 
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Not sure i would take a radio show as a good measuring stick. They probably searched out idiots; or a location thought to hold a lot of idiots, for sensationalism.

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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:57 AM 
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I still don't see how not knowing what month the Civil War began has anything to do with voting.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:08 PM 
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Yeah, me either.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:22 PM 
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just another batch of people that have no clue.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:28 PM 
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So shouldn't we be promoting improved civic education in school?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:33 PM 
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Wow! you guys are all "Power to the People" aren't you?

Bovinity asked "Who exactly is so brilliant, so intelligent, so perfect in their voting choices that they get to stand up and tell the rest of us that we need to pass some kind of test to be on their level?".

I would answer simply: Nobody who believes that we can balance the budget by either just 'taxing the wealthy' or 'spending cuts'. Let's also include nobody who believes we can do nothing or those who believe we can be fair to future generations while still taking today's level of care of the elderly. And nobody who thinks that today's recession/recovery? and budget woes can be completely blamed on W. In fact, let's just say nobody should set the standard who believes any of the rhetoric coming from either party.

We, as a country, need to fix our political system so that the real and growing problem of our debt can be addressed. The place to fix it is the root cause: us. So, how to do that becomes the question. Too many uninformed people vote; whether they be democrats or republicans, the uninformed outnumber the informed in this country. Meanwhile the media, the institution that was supposed to keep the citizenry informed, only worries whether to cover Lady Gaga or Michele Bauchman (sp). They no longer even bother to pretend they are informing the masses, they let the masses inform what they cover.

Yes, deciding who could possibly develop a series of current event questions in an unbiased way would be close to impossible, but we have to do something and nobody has come up with anything better that I have seen.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:10 PM 
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Fribur wrote:
I still don't see how not knowing what month the Civil War began has anything to do with voting.


"Gordon Keith: This month marks the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War; in which month did the Civil War start?"

Because it's a ridiculously easy question to answer based on how it was phrased. I think that's the point they were attempting to make.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:15 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
We, as a country, need to fix our political system so that the real and growing problem of our debt can be addressed. The place to fix it is the root cause: us. So, how to do that becomes the question. Too many uninformed people vote; whether they be democrats or republicans, the uninformed outnumber the informed in this country. Meanwhile the media, the institution that was supposed to keep the citizenry informed, only worries whether to cover Lady Gaga or Michele Bauchman (sp). They no longer even bother to pretend they are informing the masses, they let the masses inform what they cover.

Yes, deciding who could possibly develop a series of current event questions in an unbiased way would be close to impossible, but we have to do something and nobody has come up with anything better that I have seen.


So, let me get this straight. Your solution to a lazy, uninformed populace is to implement a lazy and uninformed solution? Understand that this is a self-correcting problem. I'm not going to get all Jeffersonian on you, but it truly is. We don't need to correct anything about the voting process (beyond the obscene gerrymandering).


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:48 PM 
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People who pay higher taxes should get more votes! That's fair right??


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:01 PM 
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Elessar wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Your solution to a lazy, uninformed populace is to implement a lazy and uninformed solution? Understand that this is a self-correcting problem. I'm not going to get all Jeffersonian on you, but it truly is. We don't need to correct anything about the voting process (beyond the obscene gerrymandering).


How is a lazy, uninformed populace self-correcting without revolution? Is that what you are advocating? Please do give me some advanced warning so I can get the hell out.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:15 PM 
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Quote:
I would answer simply: Nobody who believes that we can balance the budget by either just 'taxing the wealthy' or 'spending cuts'. Let's also include nobody who believes we can do nothing or those who believe we can be fair to future generations while still taking today's level of care of the elderly. And nobody who thinks that today's recession/recovery? and budget woes can be completely blamed on W. In fact, let's just say nobody should set the standard who believes any of the rhetoric coming from either party.

We, as a country, need to fix our political system so that the real and growing problem of our debt can be addressed. The place to fix it is the root cause: us. So, how to do that becomes the question. Too many uninformed people vote; whether they be democrats or republicans, the uninformed outnumber the informed in this country. Meanwhile the media, the institution that was supposed to keep the citizenry informed, only worries whether to cover Lady Gaga or Michele Bauchman (sp). They no longer even bother to pretend they are informing the masses, they let the masses inform what they cover.


Soooo...only people with all the answers should be able to vote? And naturally you fall into that category?

You speak as though only the current economic issues are important now, should we change the criteria later when we're worried about social/civil rights issues? What if we get into another World War, do we only let military strategists and such vote? Should we go ahead and create a nice committee that decides what percentage of what issues are most important every election, and only people who pass a test on those issues gets to vote?

Sheesh.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:34 PM 
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Quote:
"Gordon Keith: This month marks the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War; in which month did the Civil War start?"

Because it's a ridiculously easy question to answer based on how it was phrased. I think that's the point they were attempting to make.



Hahaha... well I like to think I'm fairly sharp, but I skimmed pretty quickly and missed that entirely! Guess I can't vote! :p


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:30 PM 
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Quote:
So shouldn't we be promoting improved civic education in school?


Personally I'd prefer we get better math and science(and a few categories of the arts) taught in schools before we think too hard about civics. The former category will teach you how you think differently/deeper in a much broader fashion than civics studies will. Studying civics isn't going to do a damned thing for someone's analytical capability. In the end what you'll end up learning is random facts on top of the norms and standards of today's accepted view of what government is/was/can be, which will change every decade.

People not caring about our politics doesn't make them bad voters or decision-makers(arguably better, assuming they're not street thugs like the aforementioned). It (potentially) means they don't care about the soap opera that has become American politics. They don't care about the latest gossip on Boehner's tan. Tomorrow Congress will come up with more ways to do stupid shit and argue about the most pointless things possible, and the same fools will check 50 websites and gobble it all up thinking they've learned something important to tell over the water-cooler at work. I say that as a person who used to do the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:49 PM 
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Fribur wrote:
Quote:
"Gordon Keith: This month marks the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War; in which month did the Civil War start?"

Because it's a ridiculously easy question to answer based on how it was phrased. I think that's the point they were attempting to make.



Hahaha... well I like to think I'm fairly sharp, but I skimmed pretty quickly and missed that entirely! Guess I can't vote! :p


Heh, it's easy to miss. In fact, it's one of the best ways to test basic listening skills.

Note: For those still scratching their heads, they state "This month marks..." meaning the answer to the question is the current month (which you'd assume they'd know).


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:53 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Elessar wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Your solution to a lazy, uninformed populace is to implement a lazy and uninformed solution? Understand that this is a self-correcting problem. I'm not going to get all Jeffersonian on you, but it truly is. We don't need to correct anything about the voting process (beyond the obscene gerrymandering).


How is a lazy, uninformed populace self-correcting without revolution? Is that what you are advocating? Please do give me some advanced warning so I can get the hell out.


I'm not advocating anything. I have done as much as I can to insulate myself from this nonsense, and I have the undeniable advantage of being a straight, white male.

That said, revolution is an option. The other option is that ineptitude will force the population to educate themselves. You think voters in Flint, MI are going to be voting primarily family values in the future with their area in such horrible shape? Likely not, many will move and take their ignorance with them, others will adjust by finding candidates that are better able to represent them and their needs. If not, the cycle continues until the country can no longer sustain itself (revolution, not necessarily the armed kind) or the populace is forced to face their ignorance and adjust.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:33 AM 
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Elessar wrote:
The other option is that ineptitude will force the population to educate themselves. You think voters in Flint, MI are going to be voting primarily family values in the future with their area in such horrible shape? Likely not, many will move and take their ignorance with them, others will adjust by finding candidates that are better able to represent them and their needs. If not, the cycle continues until the country can no longer sustain itself (revolution, not necessarily the armed kind) or the populace is forced to face their ignorance and adjust.


I'm not even sure how to respond to this.

First, the uninformed will one day look in the mirror and realize that they are uninformed? Really? While the media feeds them non-informative drivel about Trump, birther questions, abortion rights being put at risk, etc.? I find that difficult to believe.

Moving resolves nothing unless they leave the country.

"Finding candidates that better represent them and their needs" is pretty much what has gotten us into this mess. Most people don't look beyond their own wallets and desires when deciding where to cast their vote. Today's mantras of 'tax the rich & corporations but don't cut any spending programs' and 'cut every spending program you can find except the bloat that is defense but don't raise taxes' are perfect examples of the sport-like fanboism that is our political system. People have begun looking to government to solve everything and make it bearable if they can't resolve it. Expecting the uninformed to somehow to wake up and look at the broader picture is rather naive. That statement coming from you, Elessar, makes me worried that my assessment of the direction our country is headed was maybe too optimistic.

Finally, "the cycle continues until the country can no longer sustain itself" is probably the future but I do believe that we have a duty, let's call it patriotic, to try and do something to shift the country onto a track that doesn't go off a cliff. I'm not sure what the solution is but the cause is clear: uninformed voters who expect government to magically provide everything they or their neighbors might need at little or no cost.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:33 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Bovinity asked "Who exactly is so brilliant, so intelligent, so perfect in their voting choices that they get to stand up and tell the rest of us that we need to pass some kind of test to be on their level?".

I would answer simply: Nobody who believes that we can balance the budget by either just 'taxing the wealthy' or 'spending cuts'. Let's also include nobody who believes we can do nothing or those who believe we can be fair to future generations while still taking today's level of care of the elderly. And nobody who thinks that today's recession/recovery? and budget woes can be completely blamed on W. In fact, let's just say nobody should set the standard who believes any of the rhetoric coming from either party.
So, in other words, only people who believe at least part of what you believe should be eligible to vote.

Kula, I think you've shown just how easily it is to twist this to one's own political gain. And it didn't even have to get beyond the originator to happen. It's just too easy, and anyone could fall into that trap, wittingly or not. That's why such a system should never be implemented.

Venen wrote:
Personally I'd prefer we get better math and science(and a few categories of the arts) taught in schools before we think too hard about civics. The former category will teach you how you think differently/deeper in a much broader fashion than civics studies will. Studying civics isn't going to do a damned thing for someone's analytical capability. In the end what you'll end up learning is random facts on top of the norms and standards of today's accepted view of what government is/was/can be, which will change every decade.
I could probably go all Tarot right here and write a book about the need for enhanced civic education, but I won't.

As I consider just how to respond, I can't help but laugh at the irony here. What I'm thinking is probably as close to blasphemy as I can get, much as I value analytical ability and take pride in my own (especially when I was in school). Yet that doesn't change the fact that I believe it to be true.

It's possible I've also fallen into the same trap Kula did, that I'm seeing my own internal mechanisms and projecting them onto what I think the world needs. In high school, I blew through 5 years of advanced math by the end of my sophomore year and averaged 2.5 credits of civic classes each year. Needless to say, my transcripts look pretty strange, so my view may be a little distorted right now.

Here's where I am with this at the moment. I'll try to keep it short and simple.

Science and math can teach analytics. And as the world gets more technologically advanced, they're given more and more importance. There are good, high-paying jobs that use those skills. But relatively few, and even fewer that rely on that specific knowledge. What percentage of this year's graduating class will need calculus or chemistry in their daily lives?

Similar analytical skills can actually be developed through foreign language training. Depending on where you live, that specific knowledge could be much more useful, much more memorable, and much more immersive. I think I would have been better served by a year of Spanish in high school, instead of calculus. And yes, arts can also be very beneficial, but I can't speak to that right now.

But where high school math and science teach at a micro level, dealing with specific examples that students can't directly relate to, civic education offers an opportunity to address the macro scale. Math and science are certainly different, and maybe even deeper, but not broader. Not at all; definitely not what's taught at the high school level.

Civics shouldn't be about memorizing what month the civil war started or the names and states of each of the signers of the Constitution. We can give students a chance to look at society, figure out where we came from, what made it what it is today, and how those students fit in and can adapt it for their needs: understanding and solving real world problems.

And you know what, they can do that in an analytical way, too. So I guess I haven't fallen off my rocker after all.

As for your comments about people not caring about politics, I kind of agree. There are people in Washington and people who cover Washington who think they're in Hollywood. We need an electorate who cares about policy, but politics are sort of the way to get there.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:47 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
First, the uninformed will one day look in the mirror and realize that they are uninformed? Really? While the media feeds them non-informative drivel about Trump, birther questions, abortion rights being put at risk, etc.? I find that difficult to believe.

Moving resolves nothing unless they leave the country.


Understand that this is an evolutionary statement, not an immediate observation.

Kulamiena wrote:
"Finding candidates that better represent them and their needs" is pretty much what has gotten us into this mess. Most people don't look beyond their own wallets and desires when deciding where to cast their vote. Today's mantras of 'tax the rich & corporations but don't cut any spending programs' and 'cut every spending program you can find except the bloat that is defense but don't raise taxes' are perfect examples of the sport-like fanboism that is our political system. People have begun looking to government to solve everything and make it bearable if they can't resolve it. Expecting the uninformed to somehow to wake up and look at the broader picture is rather naive. That statement coming from you, Elessar, makes me worried that my assessment of the direction our country is headed was maybe too optimistic.


Again, I'm thinking longterm here about the overall process and why changing voting laws is the exact thing we should NOT be doing. You state that people look to government for everything, but you would advocate legislation that would prevent them from correcting this very problem?

Kulamiena wrote:
Finally, "the cycle continues until the country can no longer sustain itself" is probably the future but I do believe that we have a duty, let's call it patriotic, to try and do something to shift the country onto a track that doesn't go off a cliff. I'm not sure what the solution is but the cause is clear: uninformed voters who expect government to magically provide everything they or their neighbors might need at little or no cost.


That's a ridiculous oversimplification. To be honest, that's a factor, but a smaller one. The larger factor stems from uneven regulation (too much period, but too little where necessary) and an artificial, corporate driven aristocracy that does little to represent the actual people.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:36 AM 
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I agree in general that this essay is a direction we cannot take, but.... I do want to support Kula in the sense that I can understand the incredible frustration of seeing people being so easily mislead-- blatant lies about bills being used to justify political positions (Death panels! for example) that actually work in the minds of people who don't care enough to check can make you just want to give up.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:27 AM 
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Leolan wrote:
Kula, I think you've shown just how easily it is to twist this to one's own political gain. And it didn't even have to get beyond the originator to happen. It's just too easy, and anyone could fall into that trap, wittingly or not. That's why such a system should never be implemented.


Leo, while I would agree with the part of your response that I didn't quote about teaching analytical thinking is the long term answer, I don't think we have the luxury of waiting another 50 years to have an informed voting culture.

Yes, it would be both easy and tragic to skew any voter eligibility test toward a particular viewpoint, I think we need to do something and we need to do it sooner rather than later. So, I'm open to ideas...

Elessar wrote:
Again, I'm thinking longterm here about the overall process and why changing voting laws is the exact thing we should NOT be doing. You state that people look to government for everything, but you would advocate legislation that would prevent them from correcting this very problem?


How would requiring voters to inform themselves prevent the voters from correcting the "me me" attitude that currently exists?

Elessar wrote:
That's a ridiculous oversimplification. To be honest, that's a factor, but a smaller one. The larger factor stems from uneven regulation (too much period, but too little where necessary) and an artificial, corporate driven aristocracy that does little to represent the actual people.


Except you fail to acknowledge that the only ones with the power to remove the corporate driven aristocracy are the voters, who seem to be incapable of looking past headlines and soundbites.

Fribur wrote:
I agree in general that this essay is a direction we cannot take, but.... I do want to support Kula in the sense that I can understand the incredible frustration of seeing people being so easily mislead-- blatant lies about bills being used to justify political positions (Death panels! for example) that actually work in the minds of people who don't care enough to check can make you just want to give up.


I'm not ready to give up & move quite yet. But thank you for supporting me in my frustration.

Don't get me wrong, I understand and worry that any type of 'test' would be used for exclusionary purposes beyond simple informed vs. uninformed but I really cannot see any other way to fix our democracy. The 'test' idea is about as nonexclusionary as I can see: only people who deliberately choose to be uninformed would be excluded and I'm ok with that as long as the test-makers can somehow be chosen who aren't biasing the questions.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:38 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
I don't think we have the luxury of waiting another 50 years to have an informed voting culture. ... I think we need to do something and we need to do it sooner rather than later. So, I'm open to ideas...
I believe that what I started discussing earlier is the only solution viable in the long run. Yes, the solution itself will take a long time, but expediency is tied to laziness and apathy, which are just what we're fighting against, isn't it?

We need to inspire people to take part in government. Call it nationalism, patriotism, civic pride, or what have you. Ultimately, it's a cultural change we're looking for and businesses go through this all the time. Adaptation can be everything.

At the highest level, there are only two ways to do it:

1) The slow way, which breeds understanding over time. It requires education and uniform messaging. This would brings lasting change because it's continuously refreshed and becomes part of the nation's character.

2) The fast way, which forces people into a shared and difficult situation. Think about how America acted immediately following 9/11. There was a unity unlike anything seen since WW2 (and practically the opposite of anything since). This is why leaders are sometimes accused of starting conflicts to distract from problems at home. Either way, it's totally not sustainable (nor should we want it to be) and carries major risks, not just for leadership, but for the nation as a whole and especially anyone who would have to fight.

Now, this could be a false dichotomy. Maybe there's something else we can do. But I haven't found anything that isn't at least a derivative of one of these two.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:50 PM 
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While we're posting stuff from CNN, I think this is much more grounded in reality than the original quote: http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/15/avlon.kyl.truth
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The news wasn't that Kyl made a mistake; it was his staff essentially acknowledging that in the current hyper-partisan environment, facts are a secondary concern, even on the floor of the U.S. Senate, even when they are paraded as statistics. The important thing is to scare the hell out of people so that they remember your political point and pass it on.
Leadership sets the example. If people at that level don't check their facts -- OR DON'T CARE TO -- what hope is there for the rest of America?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:41 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
I don't think we have the luxury of waiting another 50 years to have an informed voting culture.


Do you believe that the voting culture now is less informed than that of 50 years ago? 100 years ago?


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:39 PM 
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Kitiari wrote:
Kulamiena wrote:
I don't think we have the luxury of waiting another 50 years to have an informed voting culture.


Do you believe that the voting culture now is less informed than that of 50 years ago? 100 years ago?


We have exponentially more information available today than at any time in history. We know about stuff happening in Japan and Iraq almost immediately. I think that we have so much information (and that is a good thing) people are only tuning in to what pleases them (bad thing). That is what brings the large number of people that can tell you more about Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton than they can about the energy crisis - and they don't care about the one issue that really could impact them.


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 Post subject: Re: An interesting essay
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:11 PM 
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Quote:
Here's where I am with this at the moment. I'll try to keep it short and simple.

Science and math can teach analytics. And as the world gets more technologically advanced, they're given more and more importance. There are good, high-paying jobs that use those skills. But relatively few, and even fewer that rely on that specific knowledge. What percentage of this year's graduating class will need calculus or chemistry in their daily lives?

Similar analytical skills can actually be developed through foreign language training. Depending on where you live, that specific knowledge could be much more useful, much more memorable, and much more immersive. I think I would have been better served by a year of Spanish in high school, instead of calculus. And yes, arts can also be very beneficial, but I can't speak to that right now.

But where high school math and science teach at a micro level, dealing with specific examples that students can't directly relate to, civic education offers an opportunity to address the macro scale. Math and science are certainly different, and maybe even deeper, but not broader. Not at all; definitely not what's taught at the high school level.

Civics shouldn't be about memorizing what month the civil war started or the names and states of each of the signers of the Constitution. We can give students a chance to look at society, figure out where we came from, what made it what it is today, and how those students fit in and can adapt it for their needs: understanding and solving real world problems.

And you know what, they can do that in an analytical way, too. So I guess I haven't fallen off my rocker after all.

As for your comments about people not caring about politics, I kind of agree. There are people in Washington and people who cover Washington who think they're in Hollywood. We need an electorate who cares about policy, but politics are sort of the way to get there.


I think you said you were a programmer at one point, no? You above all should realize that there are practically ENDLESS possibilities right now of apps people can make, and with each new app we find other apps that support THOSE apps and spawn from them. Many of the more intricate apps often require good mathematical skills at the least, and we still have a long way to go to completely support science with computer technology - and much of that will require background knowledge of science. A critical breakthrough may well come from a person who has a background in both and then some, as they often compliment each other. Robotics as an example leaves a lot of room for computer science implementation. We're only going to see more and more applications with computer science in time. I know that's only one field in particular, but it's a huge one, and it requires a lot of the processes I mentioned.

I took some German as well as Japanese. I gained almost nothing from learning them in terms of computational/analytical thought process, but I agree that it assists the creative side of your brain. Not the mathematical side. It's memorization and language, nothing more. Don't get me wrong, you get something from learning a second language, but I'd emphasize logic, composition, and philosophy.

Out of the 2-3 civics-based classes I took, I'd say I got MUCH more out of one world history class. I'll grant that maybe the curriculum and the professors were bad, but in general, I don't see the value other than the generic concept of being able to manage society(which isn't going to apply to the average voter). The idea itself has value, but there are MANY ways to manage human societies, and MANY of them work. There is no right answer, and even though some methods have been shown to work better than others, it's not an all-or-nothing prospect. More often it's not simply the case that one system is more fair than the other, it's that the people decide one is more fair than the other based on their own perceptions and norms.

Civics is more often a collective form of intellectual masturbation than even philosophy is, and I say that as an avid proponent of philosophical emphasis in education. It's man-made, it's completely malleable, and it changes more often than modern art does and with less reasoning to do so.

Still, as I hinted at before, I'm not going to give it no credit at all. My point is that it's USUALLY worthless. I don't think we gain a whole lot as a society via the average person knowing about it. I think leaders and game-changers can make HUGE differences in changing the system, but it's not because they know anything about civics. It's because they have vision, imagination, intelligent reflection, and(if for the better) sometimes an idea or concept of what real fairness is.

I understand that you're coming from a certain position as someone involved in the political process, and I think YOU might have the potential to make some change. I just don't think the average citizen knowing about civics really makes their vote count for much more, if anything more.


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