It is currently Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:27 PM


All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:31 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
Unlike the doom and gloom reports we have been seeing in the US. Here is an article I found on the Register (a UK IT journal) that paints a different story of what has been going on at the Japanese Nuclear power plants that were affected by the quake and tsunami. Full Article here

Quote:
The situation at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant in Japan, badly damaged during the extremely severe earthquake and tsunami there a week ago, continues to stabilise. It is becoming more probable by the day that public health consequences will be zero and radiation health effects among workers at the site will be so minor as to be hard to measure. Nuclear experts are beginning to condemn the international hysteria which has followed the incident in increasingly blunt terms.

Seawater cooling of the three damaged reactor cores (Nos 1, 2 and 3) at the site continues. US officials and other foreign commentators continued to remain focused on a spent-fuel storage pool at the No 4 reactor (whose fuel had been removed and placed in the pool some three months prior to the quake).

Despite this, operations by Japanese powerplant technicians, military personnel and emergency services at the site focused instead on cooling the spent-fuel pool at the No 3 building, and on restoring grid electrical power at the plant. Japanese officials continued to contend that water remained in the No 4 pool and the situation there was less serious than that at No 3. Police riot vehicles mounting powerful water cannon and fire trucks were used to douse the spent-fuel pool at No 3 with water, causing steam to emerge – confirming that some cooling at least was being achieved. One of the fire trucks was reportedly lent by US military units based locally, though operated by Japanese troops.

World Nuclear News reports that radiation levels have generally decreased across the plant, though they remain hazardous in the immediate area of reactors 2 and 3; levels also climb temporarily when technicians open valves to vent steam from the damaged cores in order to allow fresh seawater coolant to be pumped in, prompting teams to retreat before venting is carried out. Nonetheless 180 personnel are now working within the site where and when radiation levels permit them to do so safely

continuing
Quote:
Some more details on casualties thus far have been released, reported by WNN. It turns out that there has been one confirmed death, but not at the Daiichi plant at all: a worker who was in a crane cab at the separate Fukushima Daini plant (where all reactors are now confirmed to be safely in cold shutdown) was killed when the quake hit. Two more workers, this time at the Daiichi plant, are still listed as missing since the quake and tsunami hit. Six more required medical help following the quake, one suffering two broken legs.

A further 15 non-radiological injuries have resulted from hydrogen explosions at the site, though some of these were minor in nature and the individuals concerned returned to duty shortly after.

As to radiation-related issues, there has been one case of measurable significance. Earlier in the week when workers were still limited to a total dose of 100 millisievert, one individual breached this limit during venting operations and consequently was evacuated to hospital. As noted above, personnel are now permitted to sustain doses of 250 millisievert.
In summary it appears more and more that health consequences from reactor damage will be extremely minimal even for workers at the site. It will now be a surprise if anyone who has not been inside the plant gates this week is affected by the situation at at all – apart from all the people worldwide who have been taking iodide pills or eating salt unnecessarily. There may also be measurable psychological health effects from the global media-driven hysteria surrounding the situation, of course.

"Experience from past nuclear incidents has shown that the stress and panic caused by these events can be as bad as, or worse than, the direct threat from radiation," according to Dr Jim Smith of Portsmouth uni's School of Earth and Environmental Sciences.

Analysis
The Fukushima reactors actually came through the quake with flying colours despite the fact that it was five times stronger than they had been built to withstand. Only with the following tsunami – again, bigger than the design allowed for – did problems develop, and these problems seem likely to end in insignificant consequences. The Nos 1, 2 and 3 reactors at Daiichi may never produce power again – though this is not certain – but the likelihood is that Nos 4, 5 and 6 will return to service behind a bigger tsunami barrier.


Knowing that the anti-nuclear power crowd will add this to the Chernobyl and TMI list of nuclear issues, I hope that the people will realize that we can not and should not abandon nuclear power nor should we abandon developing next generations of facilities. What scares me is that all of the US reactors are generations old designs (with some operational upgrades of course, but they are still the old design).

If we are to get serious about producing clean, less-expensive, and highly available power, Nuclear is the best choice right now. The next generation of nuclear power plants are designed (have have shown) to be able to utilize existing nuclear waste as fuel and to have a near zero nuclear waste. We were close to getting something like that built and now the anti-nuke people will set that advancement back even more.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:32 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
bah, would someone fix the url link in the top of that post?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:17 AM 
The Lurker at the Threshold

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:54 PM
Posts: 4156
Location: Atlanta, GA
EQ1: Vanamar
WoW: Kallaystra
Rift: Tarathia
okay.

edit: to the fixing of your url.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:35 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Overall, I am ok with nuclear power as a source of energy.

HOWEVER, and this is important to me... we have to be responsible with our use of any resources. Unfortunately, I do not see how we can feel totally comfortable about creating waste products that are lethal to humanity within their proximity for thousands of years. We have no way to guarantee that these waste products will be kept safely away from us without shooting it into space.

Doesn't this bother you, even a little bit?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:41 AM 
The Lurker at the Threshold

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:54 PM
Posts: 4156
Location: Atlanta, GA
EQ1: Vanamar
WoW: Kallaystra
Rift: Tarathia
Newer designs of reactors can take the waste products of the fuel rods, reprocess them and use them as fuel again, lessening any waste that has to be stored.

Also -- what's wrong with actually shooting it into space? Take the superman iv solution and shoot it into the sun.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:03 PM 
Blackburrow Lover!
Blackburrow Lover!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:14 PM
Posts: 633
EQ1: Draconi
WoW: Dalanthas
Rift: Dalanthas
EQ2: Daranthas
[img]gcitystroll.jpg[/img]


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:17 PM 
Blackburrow Lover!
Blackburrow Lover!

Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:29 PM
Posts: 634
Location: Crestview, FL
EQ1: Arunhah
WoW: Scathain
Rift: Arunhah
EQ2: Scathian
Two potential problems. What happens when a launch fails and we have another mid-air explosion? We'd have radioactive material scattered as far as the eye can see. Two, the cost would be horrendous.

The way things are now, our only real option is to bury the waste.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:34 PM 
The Lurker at the Threshold

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:54 PM
Posts: 4156
Location: Atlanta, GA
EQ1: Vanamar
WoW: Kallaystra
Rift: Tarathia
eventually you run out of places to bury it, and a more permanent solution needs to be implemented.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:45 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
there is the option that Van mentioned (as well as my mention in the original comment).

The next generation of reactors, that have yet to be built in the US (GE already has the designs, it has been tested and proven safe) would be able to use the existing nuclear waste as fuel. That alone should be be a reason to explore moving to them as it would solve the issue of "dealing with" the nuclear waste.

We were moving forward with the IFR/Fast Breeder design when the Clinton Administration shut the entire project down. The full documents on why this was shut down have not been revealed. The scientists and engineers that were at the Argonne National Laboratory approved of the design and tested it as safe.

I would like to see these become part of the new power structure in the US. Maybe these power plants and rebuilding the power grid could be our generation's greatest gift to the world.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:21 PM 
Blackburrow Lover!
Blackburrow Lover!

Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:29 PM
Posts: 634
Location: Crestview, FL
EQ1: Arunhah
WoW: Scathain
Rift: Arunhah
EQ2: Scathian
Vanamar wrote:
eventually you run out of places to bury it, and a more permanent solution needs to be implemented.
I agree, especially beings I think that moving away from fossil fuels is impractical without liberal use of nuclear technology.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:00 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
I'm sorry.. but until you change your avatar, I can't focus on your posts Vana.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:05 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:19 PM
Posts: 1339
EQ1: Larreth/Shaylea
WoW: Gnomez Gomez
Rift: Veluria
EQ2: Vee'Sheer
Vanamar wrote:
Newer designs of reactors can take the waste products of the fuel rods, reprocess them and use them as fuel again, lessening any waste that has to be stored.

Also -- what's wrong with actually shooting it into space? Take the superman iv solution and shoot it into the sun.


Heh, until one of those rockets fails on launch and blows a metric crapton of fallout over it's entire flight path.

_________________
Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:10 PM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
Devyn wrote:
Vanamar wrote:
eventually you run out of places to bury it, and a more permanent solution needs to be implemented.
I agree, especially beings I think that moving away from fossil fuels is impractical without liberal use of nuclear technology.


Eventually? Sure. But that would take a VERY long time (relative to the current advance of science).


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:11 PM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
Blargh, I meant ot quote Vana.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:39 AM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:05 AM
Posts: 464
WoW: Prystus
Devyn wrote:
What happens when a launch fails and we have another mid-air explosion? We'd have radioactive material scattered as far as the eye can see.


As if the rare occurrence of that happening (most likely) is any better than the, god knows how many thousands or millions of tons of crap energy waste we're spewing into it RIGHT NOW, is any better? That shit's guaranteed to enter our atmosphere.

I'll take a chance on a once a decade launched waste rocket blowing up once maybe every 30-40 years to reduce or eliminate most energy waste that we spew by the mega ton into our lives right now.

_________________
"People sometimes say that ideas cannot be stamped out by force. The Albigensian Crusade proves them wrong. Ideas can be stamped out by the elimination of everyone who holds the ideas." - Quote :"Middle Ages" by Morris Bishop.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:16 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:19 AM
Posts: 1656
Location: Baltimore, MD
EQ1: Sarissa Candyangel
WoW: Sarix
Nuclear reactors only produce that amount of waste when they are used to process weapons materials. Purely power driven reactors create much less waste than people think.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:22 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
But not ZERO nuclear waste, so the problem remains.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:19 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
But Frib, are you following me on the IFR reactor? It produces no long half-life waste and has the ability to remove the waste we (and the world) are creating now.

Would that alone be a reason to push forward on that reactor?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:47 PM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
Fribur wrote:
But not ZERO nuclear waste, so the problem remains.


No. No, no, no, no and NO. The proper quote is "But not ZERO nuclear waste, so A problem remains." Not THE problem. "A" problem is not anywhere what some of the nuke haters would claim THE problem to be (usually 25+ year old out of date information based on horribly implemented Soviet Bloc technology).

If you have a cell phone and a computer, get used to understanding that maintaining a Yucca mountain like facility, that with emerging technologies can hold FAR more waste, that will likely be processed via bacteria or reprocessing anyway, than can possibly be generated with current fuel stockpiles, is a very small price to pay for our existing energy consumption.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:33 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
Quote:
But not ZERO nuclear waste, so the problem remains.
There's no silver bullet magical solution to the world's energy problems.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:38 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Quote:
It produces no long half-life waste and has the ability to remove the waste we (and the world) are creating now.


Is this true? I want to read about this!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:41 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
This is a site that would be considered pro-nuke but has a good basis of the IFR:
http://www.sustainablenuclear.org/PADs/pad0509till.html

Here is an Esquire Mag story about Eric Loewen (talking about how the IFR could be implemented:
http://www.esquire.com/features/best-an ... posal-1209

Frontline interview with Dr. Charles Till, Nuclear physicist and associate lab director at Argonne National Laboratory West in Idaho. He is co-developer of the Integral Fast Reactor, an inherently safe nuclear reactor with a closed fuel cycle.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /till.html

Hopefully those will give you some information about IFR. I like to use Steve Kirsch's (See the wiki page about Mr. Kirsch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Kirsch) blog as a jumping off point. He is a huge clean environment person that is a proponent of IFR (and the founder of the Kirsch Foundation in California that awards grants for clean Earth project that have an impact)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:35 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:19 AM
Posts: 1656
Location: Baltimore, MD
EQ1: Sarissa Candyangel
WoW: Sarix
Nuclear material is very very heavy, so it's generally measured in volume but protested in "tons".

In terms of what the nuclear power industry considers waste, it is a fuel rod that can no longer cost-effectively be used in its current form in the reactor. If they just toss it, it's like 20 cubic meters per reactor per year. If they reprocess it, it's more like 5. Probably less, and it's not all highly radioactive. Still dangerous but not hugely long-lived.

The fuel rods aren't "bad", they just gain impurities that make them unusable to produce power in their current form. A "spent" nuclear rod still contains ~95% usable fuel. And companies being profit seeking entities they pitch it.

The other 5% is "waste" but that does not mean it's useless. It's only useless by today's technological standards.

It's not a huge amount of waste when you consider the toxic waste, air pollution, and (yes) radioactive material released by burning coal. :)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:40 PM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:19 AM
Posts: 1656
Location: Baltimore, MD
EQ1: Sarissa Candyangel
WoW: Sarix
I also remember reading about experiments using lasers at one of the national labs that can cut the radioactivity of a plant's iodine-129 to half an hour. The system is terribly expensive though.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:34 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
Sarissa wrote:
A "spent" nuclear rod still contains ~95% usable fuel. And companies being profit seeking entities they pitch it.


It is the IFR reactors that can utilize the "spent" rod to get more of that ~95%


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:24 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 AM
Posts: 4109
http://us.cnn.com/interactive/2011/03/w ... index.html

Use the slider at the bottom. Cool page.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:56 AM 
We Have Cookies!
We Have Cookies!

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:27 PM
Posts: 2450
Location: California
EQ1: Cakvala
WoW: Cakvala
LoL: Cakvala
Wow thats crazy

_________________
"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:05 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
its amazing what a little bit of water can do

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net
Karma functions powered by Karma MOD © 2007, 2009 m157y