-> Go...

P.S. I live in Maricopa County

I love the part where the xenophobes don't want teachers teaching English if they have an "accent".

What the hell is that? Do they not realize if they go to some other area, that now they're the ones that "have an accent"?

Does this mean they don't want an Englishman teaching English?

It's just so boggling. There must be some HUGE anti-mexican sentiments down there.

What are you talking about?

Woah, woah, woah, Captain PostinLinks of the SS CurrentEvents hasn't been keeping up with things?

I wish more states would have the BALLS to do what AZ did... two thumbs way the F*** up for that state

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Really what it means is that I'd love for you to post a link for me to read myself.

Not sure I agree with Arizona, but it is time for SOMETHING to be done - and this might end up being the enema.

The answer is not "toss out all the illegals". However, there needs to be a process put in place to allow these people to come and work legally in the US that actually works. The current system is fraught with abuse and fraud. Whether you're pro- or anti- whatever, nobody can deny the system is fucked and the feds continue to drop the ball.

Have the balls to what? Promote racial profiling, increase state costs, and increase the fear of law enforcement, or help ensure that their children grow up to be even more xenophobic and ignorant?

I'm all for revamping our immigration laws, but not like this and not with a hodge-podge of legislation done state by state.

A lot of people are in support of redesigning the system. Problem is that it's a national issue that no one has worked on in decades. Talking about it... sure, but no real redesign. The problem is that the faulty system has caused a very toxic environment at a state level.

AZ has averaged over 1 kidnapping a day for the last 3 years. While other states like talk about boycotting AZ, people do not think about the numbers and how different life can be in other parts of the country. AZ has around 25-30% of the illegals in the US alone. And with being a boarder state of the main suppliers of drugs, you should be careful what areas you joy ride in.

Increase state cost:
fairus.org

As far as racial profiling... I'm concerned about it too.

As far as I can tell it's going to be difficult to do without racial profiling which worries me most. Maybe if they make it so everyone is asked for proof citizenship for all traffic stops. Like insurance.

I'm just quoting this because I thought it was hilarious.



And I'm quoting this because I would really like to hear an answer from Devil on this one.

Fear mongering is two-sided.

Well Tuluvian, that only addresses the racial-profiling point. What about all the others?

I'd hardly call it fear mongering. There are no guidelines on how to determine whether someone may be an illegal immigrant. Without that, police are going to have to either check the citizenship status of every single person they stop (not going to happen), or racially profile (much more likely). And if they don't, they can be sued.

The part of the bill that you quoted regarding prosecutors investigating complaints based on race, etc honestly means very little to me. Complaints would be based on immigration status, not on race.

Imo, it was a desperate move intended to make themselves look a little less racist and ignorant.

Oh really? I'd like to see some proof on that.

I hate to use Wikipedia as a source, but it looks like California has about 25%, followed by Texas, then Florida... and Arizona at 6th. Granted, the data's a few years old (2006) and Arizona saw a marked increase between 2000 and 2006, but it's unlikely to be as high as you're saying... especially without proof to back up that data.

Even if Arizona had 50%, numbers alone aren't an excuse.

You'd hardly call this fear mongering but you're very quick to pull the race card.


All they're doing is their damn job, because the Fed isn't. If they're here illegally, how is that not illegal to begin with?

Show me proof that it's going to "Promote racial profiling, increase state costs, and increase the fear of law enforcement, or help ensure that their children grow up to be even more xenophobic and ignorant?".. You pointed those out, prove it & show us all why it's bad. All I am seeing is "Death Panel" bullshit, all over, only this time it's OK....

Increasing state costs seems kind of obvious, doesn't it?

The law itself IS xenophobic and ignorant. The proof is simple: read the law. There it is.

Increasing fear of law enforcement seems obvious to me as well. An illegal immigrant now will be less likely to want to cooperate with law enforcement. They will be less likely to report crimes, for example. Would you hesitate to report a crime done to you if you know the officer could decide to have you separated from your family? Do you believe that a criminal should feel like it's open season on illegal immigrants? They broke a law, so therefore they are fair game for anyone to victimize?

It's that last part that bothers me the most, and from what I understand it's what bothers many law enforcement officers themselves the most.

Um, and how do you know they're here illegally?

According to the law, if they don't break the law they won't (and can't) be bothered. You can't prove higher state costs, yet. If it promotes people to act within the laws one could argue it lowers the costs, since we're going off assumptions.. as unlikely as it is.

The Xenophobia , I do happen to agree there, as it is, however if they come over legally and follow laws set within the country it could just as easily fix that problem. Considering some of the crime rates, and the kidnapping rate in certain areas, I'm calling this one a wash until people are given a reason not to be a little xenophobic, since without the law it makes no damn difference, it'll exist regardless. People unfortunately brought that shit on themselves and especially hurts those here legally, and appears to be just as two-sided if you believe this will prevent people from calling police when needed.

Ignorant?? Coming into the Country w/out following the laws within the country and laws to legally enter the country is your ignorance, how is that being spun the other way? Try again.

When people don't cooperate with law enforcement what difference does it make if they are white, brown, black, orange, green?

One other point not really mentioned... what's the first damn thing police ask anyone for after being stopped? ID. How is this that much different?




We don't until asked, fortunately they can't be asked unless they do something illegal, did you miss that part?

Why does it seam like everybody wants to P***Y foot around racial profiling, like it or not it is needed to make law some what efficient to enforce. Profiling needs to happen, who is being profiled will need to change based on where or what the current threat is. Face it if you a white guy from the US goes to any other county in the world and you don't have your passport with you, you'll be in a world of trouble.

As for a hodge-podge of legislation done by state to state, that would be the only way that a state could enforce illegal immigration other wise they need to rely on the Federal government to do something, and that means that if a local cop know about illegal all they can do is call ICE and then its up to an ICE agent to determine if they want to do anything.

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

The way you said it, it sounded a lot like, "Hey, it's ok to stop anyone, because if they happen to be illegal then they're doing something illegal, right?!"

Perhaps you read it that way, but was more enforcing the reason as to why this is good, overall.

I don't care what national origin a person may be, if they are in the country illegally then they should not be here.

Illegal immigration is NOT just a Mexican issue, yes it is a big part of the issue here in border states, but there are illegals entering this country from all over.

Yea I questioned it also when I posted it. Didn't have a lot of time to research it properly. It's a difficult stat to even compile considering it is a stat of illegal activity.

But I figured my estimate could be considered accurate considering many of the illeagals in states other than TX, CA, FL make there way into the contry through AZ. It's like a superhigh to many other final destinations. So considering how many illegals... do you count the ones moving through the state that end up in Phoenix for 3 months of the year before they move on?

I have to agree with Orme, this isn't the "best" way to go about reform on this topic but it is true our current system is out dated and needs a full revamp. I think we should allow them to come into the country to work legally.

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

They always have been allowed to do that, I know of people that have come from Mexico got their work visa for XX amount of time and when it has expired they did not leave, these people have been pulled over by cops put in jail and been allowed to stay here illegally all this while my brother-in-law can find a job because of the Mexican taking them. The issue is that being the Laws on the books are federal laws local and state police can’t enforce them. Arizona made it so the local and state police can enforce the law and there nothing at all wrong with that.

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Remember, before the economy tanked, when the line that people played was, "They do jobs Americans won't do!"

Maybe if your brother was just the best one for the job, he might have a different experience.
Scapegoating Mexicans because they got hired over your brother doesn't look at where that decision was made...the employer. Not the employee.

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I don't think we'll know how onerous this bill is until after it is actually implemented.

I don't live in a border state so I can only go by news reports and hearsay, but if it's true that more of the illegal immigrants (or whatever PC term you like) have criminal backgrounds than was true previously something had to be done and Washington is failing to address the issue.

Immigration Law reform is long overdue and one day our elected officials will "put on their big boy pants" and take care of business. Until then what do al of you who dislike Arizona's approach expect them to do, taking into account the cost of these populations on the social systems and thus the taxpayers?

and I repeat...



If employers stopped employing illegals, illegals wouldn't be crossing the borders for jobs. Punish the real source of the issue. Anything else is lip service meant to make people feel good about scapegoating a class of people and nothing more.

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Rugen, I will also repeat myself, punishing employers is already happening in many places (and I absolutely agree that it is part of the solution). But, why do only that? What illegal immigrants are doing, entering this country without proper permissions, is illegal. We are supposedly a country of laws. Why should one group of people be considered above that law?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that prohibition was reenacted. Let's further posit that almost everybody chose to abide by those laws except the Irish. Should that illegal activity be disregarded simply because most of the criminals (which they would be) are Irish and therefore it could be called racist?

Lip service is all that has happened thus far. The system is still broken and until government beats the shit out of companies that hire illegals as a standard practice, illegals will continue to flood into this country. As it is right now, they get a smack on the wrist and are right back to their hiring practices the next day.



Interesting. You are clearly reading a different thread than I am. I've not seen that said once.

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Rugen, how is not enforcing laws because a single ethnic group is most affected not just another way of saying that one group is above the law?

The problem is the law itself, in my opinion.

And how does requiring brown people and only brown people (as the law will be realistically applied) prove citizenship at the whim of any law enforcement officer solve illegal immigration? Either *everyone* who interacts with law enforcement has to prove citizenship or get referred to INS, or only people who actually get arrested for something should have their citizenship run post-arrest.

It's really easy to say "Oh, well, I wouldn't mind carrying ID" until you've gotten pulled over for Driving While Not-White for the fourth time in a month on your way to work. I seriously have to wonder how many people who've seen the non-Officer Friendly side of cops really think this law is a good thing.

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Hope is the new black.

Wow, I'm not even sure where to start...

Have you read the law? There will be no 'paper checking' on a whim. It is expressly forbidden. Are you trying to say that that cops who ask for ID are somehow being overly intrusive or only when the person asked happens to be in the country illegally or fits into YOUR stereotype of 'illegal alien'?

I don't believe this law is a good thing but rather an act of desperation on the part of a state that has repeatedly for years asked for help from the federal government. You know, that entity that is supposed to protect our borders?

And again I ask: What do you want them to do?

Actually I do say that.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I guess you've never been pulled over while driving?

That's not just asking for ID

I'm talking about "stop and identify" rather than, you know, enforcing laws.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

You've never ever had a cop pull you over/stop you when you know full well you've done nothing at all, have you?

Well, lucky you. Me? I've been pulled over for being poor in a rich area (ie, driving a piece of shit in a land of pristine cars). I've been stopped for "looking like trouble" (ie, biker jacket and ripped jeans walking at night). I've watched a cop try to search a friend of mine's purse without so much as telling her why (and I quickly snatched her purse away and informed her of her rights).

Anyone that thinks cops don't stop people just because they want to and then make up reasons for why it was a valid stop is kidding themselves. Maybe not all cops do it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Stopping people for driving while black/brown/whatever does happen and Arizona just made it easier to do...all the while, patting themselves on the back that they are fixing the problem with illegal immigration, when they actually haven't done anything to address it at all. It's just stupidity in motion.

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And yet again, what do you want them to do? Raiding employers isn't going to stop the drug runners or gun runners because guess what? Those illegal persons (they're not trying to immigrate so I don't know what to call them) don't have jobs. And I don't mean just Rugen, but all of you who think this law is oh so wrong.

What do you want the states suffering the most to do?

I think the consensus from the boycotting cities is that it is a federal issue and that all illegals need naturalized. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Last time I checked, both gunrunning and drug running are crimes in and of themselves.

However, leaving your wallet home when you go for a jog isn't. Nor is waiting on the side of road for your ride to show up. Or at least, wasn't.

I can't believe that anyone thinks that there is even slightest shred of Constitutionality to a law that requires U.S. Citizens to carry their papers at all times. Even worse that practically speaking, only a subgroup of the citizenry will need to worry about it at all.

If we want to go to a National ID card that you're required by law to have on your person at all times, I'm willing to have that debate. If Arizona wants to make sure that everyone who looks "white" isn't an illegal from Canada or Ireland or Eastern Europe, ditto. But the law as it stands, especially when combined with the "no accent while teaching" and the "no ethnic studies" laws pretty much prove that the target isn't really illegal immigrants. It's brown people.

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Hope is the new black.

I think you are going to find that these are the extreme exceptions to the norm. The vast majority of illegals aren't here to smuggle drugs or guns, they are here cleaning hotel rooms and washing dishes or building houses or working farms.

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News here in New Mexico is now for the city of Albuquerque if you get pulled over and accused of any type of crime you get a background check and a visa check.

Created some debate for the city.

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

Seriously? He probably was the best one for the job, he just wouldn't do as cheaply or more than likely work under the table.



Maybe yours was. Here in Indianapolis, you can't go into a single fast food place and not have a mexican working there, drive 1 mile in any direction and not see a mexican driving by. We are so over run with them HS kids can't even get jobs at say McDonalds or mowing lawns because they have taken all the traditional jobs kids always did.

I find it amusing that those here that are all for letting them in at-will, hold professional jobs vs layman jobs. I wonder how differently you would feel about it if your boss came to you and got rid of you for someone who would do your job for 1/2 the salary. My guess is you would bitch up a storm. But as long as it doesn't directly affect you you can continue take what you believe is the morally superior high road and champion for the poor little mexican who became a criminal the second he stepped out on the north side of the Rio Grande.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

OMG! You're being affronted by the presence of brown people! Oh God, When Will It Stop?????

Irish Need Not Apply
Italians Need Not Apply
Women May Apply, But Will Get Paid 1/2
And on and on and on and on

The best part? While you're freaking out over the legal Mexican contractor down the street, you don't even *notice* the illegal Ukranian cleaning your office building.

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Hope is the new black.

I did lose my high-paying well-appointed job to someone willing to work for half. Guess what: he was brown too. Financially, my family is still working on the recovery. Only three years til the bankruptcy is cleared!
Funny thing? I still don't think Arizona is in the right, here. Yes, it's illegal to cross the border without proper documentation and permission. But it should also be illegal to stop a person and challenge them for proof of citizenship, for the very reasons you think it's okay: It would only be used against "different" people. Saying any differently just exposes your ignorance of human nature, but given your track record here I'd say ignorance is the least of your problems.

Maybe your building, not mine.



Haha, I had to look and see if this was Tarot posting. It smacks of her typical "I had/knew/was/have been/is going through" responses. I guess you have taken up her mantle.

Maybe you should have worked harder instead of being a lazy ass.

You are all a bunch of band wagon riding pussies willing to give away everything no matter what the price. Fuck it let them all in, current estimates have the Illegal population at almost 10% of the US population by 2015. That's 10% of your country sucking off the school, medical and infrastructure tit for nothing. Glad you are willing to foot their cost, especially those of you who supported the Nationalized health care that none of them will be contributing to.

Glad I'll be retired and living on a beach in Mexico by then, there should be plenty of room.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

3 traffic stops. I guess it is working pretty well.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/13/20100513phoenix-arpaio-illegal-immigrants-abrk.html

[quote]The 26 illegal immigrants, found during three traffic stops in the north Valley, had paid anywhere from $150 to $3,000 to be transported across the border, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said.
The immigrants all admitted to crossing the border at the Altar and Nogales ports of entry, according to authorities. They were headed to many states across the United States.

Information obtained during one of the stops led deputies to a drophouse in west Phoenix.

The home in the 3500 block of North 64th Drive was only holding one man when deputies arrived, but the man admitted to being an illegal immigrant and using the home for human smuggling, according to authorities.

"Sometimes you start at the bottom, it leads to the top," Sheriff Joe Arpaio said. "Many of these drophouses result in violence."

A stolen silver dodge truck was found in the backyard of the home and was turned over to its owner. Deputies believe it may have been used for smuggling.

/quote]

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

I don't agree with the idea of stopping people without just cause, but I do agree with the intent to stop illegals coming in. I don't have a better solution, but I do have business experience to discuss this point:

Rugen wrote:


This is an unrealistic goal that many small and medium sized businesses can't adhere to, especially in border areas. Let's take landscapers for example, because it is one of the hardest hit industries. If there are 15 landscaping contractors in your 10 mile competition area, and the other 14 are using illegals (they are), you are out of luck. You cannot hire someone who is more or equally qualified with proper papers because they will cost 2-3x as much after you factor in payroll taxes and benefits. In an industry where labor accounts for 75-80% of your costs, how would you ever win a job paying that much more for labor? You are forced to do two things, break the law and hire at least some illegals to keep your wage roll low or wait patiently for the other 14 contractors to get caught and go out of business. If you choose option 2, you're SOL, because only 2 got caught this year and 3 more opened up to take thier place. Congrats, you are now out of business.

That is not a "possible" scenerio, that is exactly how it works in border towns. If you want to affect the problem you have to remove the ability to hire illegals because they are simply not available. There is no (at least currently) way to punish businesses in a fair mannor to address the issue.

With regard to pulling someone over or questioning "without just cause", how is it any different from police questioning someone for suspicious activity? IIRC most of the anti-terrorism, anti-gang/drug laws have portions in place which allow that already. I'm sure there are behavior patterns police can follow and rather accurately(if implemented correctly) track down people who have a pretty damned good chance of being illegal. It will never be "just cuz they brown" in the rulebooks. You can't take the least intelligent officers who probably were going to pull someone over *anyway* if they were brown and suggest that automatically makes the law bad or more susceptible than anything else to racial profiling.

Suggesting that this law constitutes racial profiling of Mexicans is as silly as saying that gang laws on the south side of Chicago constitutes racial profiling of African-Americans. Just because a happenstance scenario of crime includes a large portion of a particular race doesn't mean that cracking down on the illegal activity is racial profiling.

I don't know if the law works this way, but I'd prefer that if a person were questioned they would be asked to produce papers - and if they don't have them, merely give them a warning and ask for them to submit their papers within a few days. If they're caught a second or perhaps a third time without papers and they have no means of producing them or any evidence that they're legal citizens, then it's probably a safer bet that no one is getting screwed.

Khan,

I've lost two jobs because the department I worked in was outsourced. I lost another one because the employer brought in a fleet of H1-B visa workers, and actually had the gall to say we could stay on for another six weeks to train our replacements.

It wasn't "we weren't doing our job well enough" it was "there are people who are willing to do your job for a fraction of the salary"

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

What's funny Vana is that Khan pointed that out himself earlier in this thread, yet when someone here points out that it happened to them, it switched to, "omg you're so lazy!"

Just wait till more illegal immigrants start playing the violin. Then the shit will hit the 1st chair fan.

Or, set up a system by which companies can be reported and have the report actually DO something to shut those businesses down if illegals are found to be employed. Until businesses stop hiring illegals, illegals will NOT stop flooding into this country. Nothing else is going to resolve the issue. Any amount of risk, danger, jail time, whatever, is worth it to them with the money they can earn here. Until that incentive is removed, congrats...you have illegals. Once it is clear that businesses found to be employing illegals will be ground to dust and any of your competitors can report you? Trust me, they'll stop hiring them.

Saying "I have to do this because everyone else is" is an absolutely ludicrous defense of illegal behaviour.

The problem here is that our government, for whatever reason, will not crack down on those businesses. As a result, we get a lot of chest beating about how bad the illegals issue is, but they do nothing that actually resolves the problem. So the problem continues and we get a lot of half ass lip service bills, laws, and fences. Part of the problem is actually us, the US consumer. The government knows that while people bitch about illegals, they aren't willing to give up their cheap goods and most people are too stupid to put together that one equals the other. So the government gives lip service to the illegals issue, but continues to protect the cheap goods to keep the voters happy as well, essentially playing both sides of the fence.

And Khan, I like how you swap in like 3 posts from "OMG his brother WAS the best person for the job!!!" to "Stop being so fucking lazy". Talk about a complete reversal.

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Hey Vana, I feel for you. Really I do. But were your replacements Illegals? Outsourced and H1-B visas aren't illegal. That's what we are discussing here. Taking my statement out of context from the discussion is not your norm. I also say the same to Syuni, was it an illegal that took your high paying job or was it just someone with "Brown Skin"as you put it who had every right to be in the country and work?

10+ years and I have agreed with something Venen has said probably 4x. I am going to go have a big stiff drink now and look at my pics of my 1400ft of mexican beach front property. Land is cheap there ya know. Y'all should look into it!

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

It's deeply troubling, Khan =p

Honestly though, I don't even live in a border state and I just don't see how 10+ million illegals using infrastructure, producing waste, using government money and other resources could possibly be made up for by the work these people produce, especially when you consider overall population growth as a significant burden on the country.

I'm all for welcoming immigrants, but not where we overburden ourselves to the point where we will no longer have anything to offer those immigrants in the first place. Maybe it's a simplistic justification on my part, but America cannot provide for everyone.

I'm also unconvinced those "undesirable" jobs wouldn't be filled within a couple weeks tops if they were all deported right now. Sure, right now there are plenty of lazy low-to-middle-class folks that turn a snobby nose to high-labor low-income jobs, but it wouldn't take very long for reality to sink in for most of them. I'm not buying the "we'll never have anyone to serve our fast food or build our buildings!" line.

I feel for these guys, they're trying to make a living through hard work. The problem is when you do so at the expense of others, and cheat the system by coming in uninvited while all the legal immigrants strive for legitimacy in coming here honorably.

Just call me Lou Dobbs, I guess. It's one of those few issues I can't help but fall towards the right on.