The Fed does not have skimmers, containment booms, or any of the needed items to clean this up and it would take 90-120 days (best case) for a contract to be signed to hire a company that can do the cleanup.

Why people are upset at the administration is that they have publicly shown that they are doing nothing. We don't know what is going on behind the scenes other than the investigation as to who to blame/fine/etc. (Personally, I think the punishment should at least wait until there is containment.) There has not been a public showing of federal support to get this resolved. The perception is the admin is saying "BP this is your mess, you clean it up and we are going to punish your ass"

If there was a "call" for other companies to come in to assist with the cleanup, with no risk of litigation onto them and with some federal assistance for the cost that would show that 1) the administration is trying to do something and 2) shows that the administration can work with business to get a result.

I don't know if there has been a call for assistance from Exxon or the other large oil companies.

I do know that they need to cap the well or this problem will continue to get exponentially worse.

Heh, I'm sort of wondering why Exxon/Shell/Mobil and the like aren't volunteering cleanup assistance -- it would be a profound goodwill gesture, especially since people are already talking about boycotting BP.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Have no fear, Obama has called in Hollywood to the rescue!

_________________
Jake Rivers - Senex Legio
Get off my Lawn alliance

James Cameron aka Captain Planet is on the job.

I'll try and address some of this shit.

Chevron/Exxon/Shell do not employ cleanup crews constantly. They employ them when needed. There is no such thing as Exxon loaning their cleanup crew to BP. They are independent contractors that specialize in cleanup and they are employed all across the Gulf of Mexico spreading booms and cleaning up existing oil. It's not like BP hasn't employed every single available cleanup crew.

Like Krby said, the federal government doesn't have containment booms, solvent booms, or skimmers. Contracts would take time, and you can't contract people who are already working on the damn spill. There just aren't enough cleanup crews available for a spill of this size and unless the government wants to create a new agency where people sit on their ass most of the time until we have a spill, there isn't much they can do in the future either.

As far as other cleanup assistance, every single oil company in the Gulf of Mexico that I know of (Chevron and Exxon for sure) have offered the use of their most brilliant minds to come up with a solution to this mess. They're not just sitting back and laughing at the penalties BP will face because this incident will effect every single oil company that operates in the United States.

Boycotting BP won't do shit except hurt the small business owners that happen to operate those particular service stations. It's not like BPs gas stations get all of their gas directly from the BP refinery and that BP refinery only gets the oil they refine from BP production in the Gulf. BP stations are supplied by whatever refinery is the closest one to them. Go sit in front of a refinery some day and watch the trucks that come and go. It's not only Chevron trucks that get gas from Chevron refineries, it's everyone and then the additives that make each companies gas blend their own are added after the fact.

As far as not having any operational control, there are Coast Guard officers assigned to individual areas across the gulf who are coordinating the cleanup efforts with BP. When a sheen or actual oil is reported, those officers are relaying the information to BP and to the cleanup crews. We reported a sheen and some streaking the other day and we had a coast guard admiral calling within 15 minuted to get exact details so they could coordinate the cleanup effort. The government is involved more than the common man realizes and until the leak is stopped and cleanup is closer to complete, they really don't have much more they can do that I have seen.

Do you want Obama out there turning a wrench when he doesn't have the first clue about drilling relief wells? Would that make people happy?

It wouldn't make him less black or less liberal so it wouldn't please any of the people that are whining.

Good post by the way.

_________________

xkcd is hilarious...

1. BP under reported the significance of the spill initially. They are also disputing the existence of the huge underwater bloom that multiple universities have independently corroborated. This doesn't jive with "BP is doing everything they can".

2. We're more than a month into the spill. Efforts happening now weren't necessarily happening initially. The Katrina cleanup got kicked into gear eventually, too.

3. Lousiana is "still" not getting approval for the effortrs it wants to undertake for cleanup and prevention. There have been too many complaints from local and state organizations for me to believe the government is even yet doing everything it can.

4. Re: contracts. Are you "really" suggesting that we go through normal procedures when responding to a major national emergency? That's some pretty bad policy. What do we do in a nuclear attack? Put out an RFP?

5. We can open up the pocket book for trivial jobs bills, wars with no gosls, bailouts and massive new spending. Why exactly can't we pour more resources into this? Because they dont exist? I call bullshit on that.

6. I'm not sure I buy what you're selling regarding other oil companies. Have any evidence to support that? If offered... Why was it turned down? If turned down... Isnt that something, as the people "in control" (Obama's words)... Shouldn't we have some veto power over that? Isn't it win our best interest to ensure that BP is doing literally everything it can?

Obama needs to clear his fucking desk and put one sheet of paper on it. That paper needs to read: "Plug the damn hole."

Frankly, it's a little too late for him to salvage image on this. Instead of coming on TV and talking about "cutting tax breaks for oil companies", he needs to focus on the problem. Every time I see this shit on TV, I get more pissed. I hate to politicize this, but if this was a Republican, there would be holy-mother-fucking-hell to pay.

The fact that BP's CEO is on TV saying stupid shit, claiming there isn't as much oil as we think, and other garbage tells me that we are not clamping down hard enough. Obama is in bed with these guys as much as anyone, so he loses his cocksucking moral authority.

What does BP make in profit each day? $50 million? That sounds like a good fine... maybe half of that. $25 million per day that it is not plugged. Does the president have that authority? Doubtful, but he could certainly put the wheels in motion. Obama runs the EPA... right?

And, let's say he can't fine them. What about something radical like threatening a boycott. I'm not sure the precedent on such a move, but just imagine the president going on national TV and saying, "I am asking you not to buy BP oil until this hole is plugged." (and I know BP oil is sold at more than BP gas stations)

It's time to roll up the sleeves and get creative. Do I have the answers? No. But then again, I'm not the fucking president.

And ditto to Joxur.

And can all you lefties at least admit one thing:

If this was George Bush, there would be calls for impeachment because he doesn't care about the environment.

I have to disagree. The BP oil spill is NOT Katrina. Katrina was about evacuation and support of people post disaster. Things that our government forces DO and have DONE. As Xanth has already pointed out, our government isn't in this business and to suddenly and quickly get into it seems like it would cause more problems than simply riding on the back of BP with a bullwhip.

Now, admittedly, they need to start fucking using that whip. After all, now that the supreme court has decided that corporations are humans, it should be well within official ability to execute that human for crimes against the nation.

The problem is, the second you remove any hope of BP moving forward as an entity, you remove any hope at all of this being stopped before months have gone by. I promise you, no other oil company is going to step up to the plate.

I'd love to see a FAST answer, staring at the photos of it spreading.....but the reality is, no one has a fast answer and our government has NEVER been fast at doing NEW things.

_________________

All I see here is "talk tougher" as the answer, so far. Well that and "put a piece of paper on his desk!"

I'm still not sure what you expect from him, heh. Neither of those two things would stop this leak any faster than what is going on right now.

*edit* I do want to say that the "if Bush was president you would be calling for his impeachment" line made me stop and think a little. But I'm not sure this is the case. I will say that this kind of thing is exactly why I've been against offshore drilling, and always have been, and Obama certainly disagrees with me on that. I can only hope that this would maybe make him rethink that stance, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Fribur - Do you drive a car? Do you use anything made of plastic? Trash bags? Credit Cards? Ballpoint pens? Shoes?

Would you really rather we continue to contribute to the middle east rather than tap America's resources and employ American workers?

I'm all for new energy sources and clean energy for our cars, but petroleum is so entrenched in our society that we can't just all of a sudden say let's not use it anymore.

I didn't say, "let's not use it anymore" either.

No, you just don't want to produce it here.

I don't want new investment to go toward more oil rigs. I want new investment to go towards other types of energy production.

Let's try not to get this too sidetracked? I'm still hoping for a good practical answer to the question "What should Obama do that he isn't currently?" that would show obvious benefits in our quest to stop this oil leak from continuing.

I don't think there is a good practical answer to that question.

Is there something inherently nefarious about investing in oil rigs? Other types of energy will not be powering your cars anytime soon and turning your back on your own resources is just shooting yourself in the foot. That said, as a resident Albertan, we appreciate the continued foreign investment.

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I have to agree with Joxur, at least insofar as Obama should be getting the ball rolling on some major fines for BP. At the very least, they (BP and others corps responsible for the rig) should be fined enough to fund clean up, but it shouldn't wait until the damage is done.

Interesting.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/g ... ers-051310

Read it and the updates.

Again, where's the effort to seriously vet creative solutions?

If this solution is viable, or even worth trying, and the problem was cost, or lack of decision making... well that's totally unacceptable.

Because you can't read... did you not see the part about the fines? The bigger a financial problem it is, the more creative they get with solutions. On top of that, there is evidence starting to appear that Obama's administration colluded with BP to cover up the size of the damage in the early days, which helped BP avoid fines of $1000/barrel - google it.

Additionally... if you worked in a real company for real money, you would understand that being in charge means doing more than saying, "well... I'm doing my best and can't do any more." I am not an engineer, so I don't have the answers. But, the President doesn't get that luxury - a major piece of coast of his country is being assaulted, he needs to find people to solve the problem. That's what leaders do. If we were being invaded, saying "New York was destroyed, but I did all I could" would not be acceptable. You defending him is just pathetic.

Oh wait... he did try to get a team together, but focused more on gay rights and booted Jonathan Katz on the team (unless this story is fabricated - google it). I would hire fucking Hitler if I thought he could fix it.

And beyond that, as Joxur has posted multiple times - there are other options, you just keep "missing" those.

Anyway, done wasting time on you. The people are speaking and this is going to stick with the president for a long time. Bush managed to Matrix-bullet-dodge the Iraq debacle, so Obama may do the same here.

I'd hardly compare Iraq and the BP thing as even remotely the similar. One involves oil and the other involves a boat in the Gulf.

Siphoning oil with tankers would re-task them and cut into profits, or require hiring the ships that helped the Saudis. Unless the fine is greater than those profits, they would not devote resources to it. Simple business.

They aren't in the business of saving the Gulf or making it pretty again. They have to try for PR reasons. But only so far as to not get lynched.

Har har... but seriously... Not really comparing them, just commenting that if Bush can somehow blind the country to a pointless war, that I'm sure Obama can survive this.

I'm really not trying to be contrary; just asking another question.

Does Obama really have the power to fine corporations on his own as you imply?

Why don't you address the numerous points raised after your last question?

But the answer is yes. He can, there are many many ways to fine BP.

How? I'm nervous about the idea of a President that can simply impose fines without any sort of check on that power.

As far as "other points," I don't really see much other than the "get tougher" idea, but I still don't see what this means exactly. I'm not even sure how you guys know how tough or not tough he is being in these meetings, and I am not sure how this "omg he's tough!" idea would actually result in a practical difference in the speed in which they get this leak stopped.

I heard this on the radio yesterday (was 1310 The Ticket not political talk) and thought it was funny:

Q: What does Obama need to do about the Gulf Oil situation?
A: He needs to do something; hell he just needs to put on some scuba gear, get some equipment, take some celebrity there with him and dive down to attempt to fix it. regardless if he does anything after that he is a shoe-in for re-election because he showed that he tried something.

I don't know if the president has the authority to do this, but if he does, he could commission a portion of the armed forces to work on cleaning up the spill or the affected wild life. The entire cost for this would be charged to BP. I like that idea more than fines, and while our national guard or coast guard may not be trained in oil clean up, I would be surprised if there wasn't something they could do to improve the situation given the manpower and equipment available to them.

Seems like we have a lot of unemployed people that might be thankful for some work even if it means relocating (temp), as well.

_________________

Really what part of the military do you think has time for this? I'm not trying to be bitchy, and I'm trying really hard not to let my blood boil, but what part of the military is available?

I heard on NPR that they are employing some people to do wetlands cleanup. They said that going much further than that (like out to sea) would require training and special equipment due to the toxicity.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/0 ... e_oil.html

the photos of wild life that are coming out are just heartbreaking...and this could potentially go on for months before the well is stopped at this point.

_________________

I don't know why that suggestion would cause your blood to boil, it's not exactly a provoking stance. In any case, we have used the military for natural disasters before, there just hasn't ever been (that I can remember anyway) a company to bill for the time. You can't send a request for compensation to mother nature for Katrina. The national guard or coast guard would seem like logical choices for this effort, and if clean up efforts are too complex at sea then assist with on shore efforts for wildlife. I would be surprised if the coast guard didn't have ships that would be useful though, even if they needed to be directed by skilled oil workers.

This is a national emergency, we are too busy to help is an odd excuse, and one I doubt the military would ever use. We can't help because we don't have that skill set is another issue and may be the case, but that's why it's just a thought for discussion on my part.

I think perhaps that the military is a bit overstretched at this point what with 2 military actions and the random sabre-rattling exercises already going on around the world.

There are statutes in place. You really are hopeless. Google the "Oil Pollution Act" as just one avenue.

Pretty much.

Unless someone lives on the coast, relies on fishing, or something else that's greatly affected...why would they care? Just a bunch of dead birds and oily shores in places they don't go? Oh well. Not worth the loss of profits! Tell the media we're putting a hat on it!

I'm not sure how asking simple questions make me "hopeless," but I'll continue. I just read the key provisions of the Oil Pollution Act, and it's possible that I misread it, but I still don't see where the President is granted power to just impose fines as some sort of punishment for not working fast enough. I do see the ability to fine BP 25k a day or 1k per barrel of oil released, but in a per diem of 25k is a joke for a company the size of BP, and the 1k per barrel of oil released clause would be fought for years in court since it is unclear by everyone exactly how much oil is out there. I also see some pretty stiff upper limits for liability for BP that are far, far below what this spill is going to cost.

I do like the idea of sending some military forces in to help with cleanup, if that hasn't already been done, and if we really have extra people lying around to do so. I'm not sure, at least with that statute you asked me to google, that the President would then have the unilateral power to pass along that bill to BP.

So I guess I still don't know what exactly you want the President to do that he's not currently doing . I guess I'm hopeless!

Remember that 30% that always favored Bush, no matter how bad he got? That's you, Fribur. Congrats on losing your objectivity.

I'll take that to be an admission that you have no answer to the question and are simply going to resort to irrelevant attacks.

I'm not trying to win some kind of contest proving that Obama is god. I'm sincerely trying to understand what it is that you guys think Obama should be doing that he isn't. Why is it so hard to come up with an answer?

We have.. over, and over. You haven't rebutted any of them. I'm not going to repost my points, Orme's points or other points. You're in denial, and you also are so intellectually lazy that you're not even bothering to google the answers to your own questions, which are readily available.

Nothing you guys have said have indicated any practical steps that would make the leak go away faster. How would, "saying mean things" make the leak go away faster, exactly? He's already condemning them over and over again. They are already a part of every level of the planning process with BP, and vetoing things they think aren't enough. For example, there are two relief wells being dug right now instead of just one, at the government's mandate. How would "fine them" make things go faster, when according to the only law that has been shown to me, he can only fine them at most 25k a day, which is a total joke to BP?

Please tell me what I've missed. I've already said that perhaps sending the military to help with the cleanup on the beaches was a good idea, assuming they are available. But getting BP to actually pay for it will involve the courts and lots of time, since so far no one has shown me a statute that lets Obama unilaterally pass along the bill.

So again... what have I missed? Everything else I see on this thread is a bunch of meaningless rhetoric that doesn't have any practical value.

Try, for just a second, to take your hate blinders for me off and help me out here. My questions are simple, and really aren't with the intent to "defend Obama like Bushies defended Bush." But of course, you don't believe me, so what can I do?

Your suggestions haven't been much in the way of action though, Jox.

Yeah, you've been talking a lot about "raising hell" and getting mad at Obama and whatnot, but when you listed suggestions they were pretty much empty big-talk.

"Hold someone accountable!"

"Go do something!"

"Recognize that it's bad!"

"Get mad at BP!"

Yeah, I think we all know all those. But what do you do? We can fine the shit out of BP and hope the losses are a big enough threat that it means they want to work more on fixing the problem.

We can hold someone accountable...but who? Arrest the CEO of BP? Execute the oil rig workers? What do you do here? Levy some more fines?

Recognize that it's bad? Do something? Pretty sure they have been. It's already been the costliest oil cleanup in history for the taxpayers as money gets funneled to help cleanup efforts and give assistance to affected areas to mitigate their damage.

Also, according to his statistics:



There's an effort, but this isn't exactly the kind of problem that you can just rush in and magically fix. Is BP trying as hard as they could? Maybe not. I doubt it, actually. They know that the PR nightmare is already in full swing so there's no real mitigating that.

But to flail around and yell and stomp your feet at Obama for some reason, I don't get it.

_________________

On Face the Nation this morning the head of the clean-up efforts said the US Navy is actively participating by using thier ships to quickly transport skilled workers and required equipment to the most pressing areas. That's the kind of thing I meant with my suggestion and it's good to see they are already doing it.

Bov + Fribur. You guys are so blind and partisan, it hurts. Go to CNN... hardly a Joxur-right-wing-think-tank.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/06/gulf.oil.spill/index.html?hpt=C1
Excerpt:
In regards to clean-up:
CNN Lady: "So, it's the US Government who needs to be doing this, it's on you."
Coast Guard Admiral: "As far as prioritization and directing oil ressponese... blah blah blah: It's the US Coast Guard."
Translation: They're in charge of keeping this shit off our coast, and they're failing. That's Obama's administration you clowns. How can you not get this?

You have mayors in Alabama screaming that they can't get skimmers there. The Coast Guard is responsible for getting skimmers there. That is Obama, how do you not get it ? Keep making excuses. The bottom line is that our coast is being wasted and it's on Obama's watch.

The Coast Guard Admiral even notes there is an Oil Trust Fund controlled by Congress (Democrats!). No money has been released, even though $1 Billion is sitting there. They're trying to get money moved from the principle to the emergency response fund. This far into the disaster, should that even be an issue?

This is black and white shit.

CNN Lady: "You're in it for the duration?"
Admiral: "I'm in it until the president says otherwise."

See kids... this guy reports to... THe President!

In addition:
Part of the fining mechanism is dependent on the quantity of oil spilled. There is video from the early days of the spill that had been suppressed, with the assistance of the US Coast Guard. And how long was this thing spewing oil into the ocean before Obama said, "Oh, this might matter politically, can't minimize it any longer." Pathetic. You not even able to admit that failure: more pathetic. Again, look on ABC and CBS news - not right wing nutjob sites.

As I have repeated about 1000x now - Obama is in bed with these guys, and he is not coming out hard against them, and even acting to protect them. Again - if this was Bush, you douchebags would be up in arms. Obama is BP's #1 contribution recipient. Google it... it's on CNN etc.

And Fribur, that's why you're fucking hopeless and it saddens me that you have the opportunity to wreck the minds of children.

What Orme said. Well, except the last poke at Fribur, because I do believe his intentions are good.

Here are three additional concrete steps Obama could/should have taken:
1~ Either named someone whose demeanor & presence is confidence-inspiring or given Thad Allen a spokesperson.
2~ NOT decided that in the middle of a crisis the proper and efficient thing to do was a reorganization of the government agency whose area of oversight is the industry in which the catastrophe happened (MMS).
3~ Immediately after the platform sank (it may not have been necessary had that not occurred), hired an industry drilling engineer with superb offshore credentials and had him advising the administration. (this may have been done and if it was then it should have been made public)

So Orme...I'll ask you the same thing.

You're stomping your feet and frothing at the mouth about Obama, but what do you think he can do.

You keep saying that I'm some kind of partisan maniac, defending Obama, but I challenge you to find one place where I've defended him. I just want to know what all the people blaming him think he can do.

Go read what I quoted again. There are ships out there. There are men out there. There's been 4.3 million feet of boom out there. There's been scientists and engineers trying to figure out how to contain this disaster. But it's huge. It's not a fucking dead armadillo in the road that someone can just walk out and scoop up.

You say he's not "coming out hard" against them. What does that mean? We all know that everyone is pissed off about it. So what can Obama do? Make angry faces? Again, say something substantial, stop stomping your feet angrily about it.

So what more do you want Obama to do? Or are we just playing the, "I'm mad at the government and I'm not sure why." game that is pretty standard.

And you can stop the Bush comparisons now. There's a pretty significant difference between this and the primary reason people were pissed at Bush.

What Bovinity said.

I want to respond to this though:



Every time I inject my socialist agenda into these poor innocent children and turn them into communist robots, I'll be thinking of you Orme, squirming and crying about my influence over the future of this (soon to be) Red State.

And now we get reports that Obama knew the spill would likely last months as early as April 30th. Really makes you wonder about his response. Even with there being "nothing they could do about it" (which would be the first thing the government can't fix, what a coincidence), Jindal was requesting resources and support in early May and got very little.

I'm sure the man is a good politician and means well, and I certainly don't wish him any harm, but Bobby Jindal looks like such a weiner.

_________________

Something substantial:
1. Push fines as outlined in the Oil Pollution Act
2. Not cover-up spill knowledge as evidenced by the now published early video (that the Administration had access to)
3. Redirect more money toward clean-up effort (as the Coast Guard Admiral mentioned they are trying to finally do now)
4. Work with scientists even if they wrote a controversial paper 10 years ago
5. Get skimmers to sites as requested (as the Coast Guard Admiral admitted was a failure)

Can you two serioulsy not read? Did you not watch the video? What part of this are you missing?

I haven't had much time to keep up on this lately, but it does sound like Obama could make better calls here(I'm a pretty firm believer that there's almost always room for improvement). At the same time, I look at the pic Snarky posted and it makes a little more sense not to have grand expectations at this point for everything that comes the President's way. At this point, the nation is in such disrepair with so many problems that the man could spend 24 hours per day analyzing the various situations and coming up with what he feels like are informed decisions and he'd probably come up short on at least 80 percent of the issues. I don't even blame Bush for the majority of it. I just feel like it's trying to micromanage the Roman Empire at the time of its collapse. I mean seriously, good luck.

It would probable help if he didn't say things like "It's the easiest thing in the world to start looking around for someone to blame." at high school graduate commencement speeches. Irony alert.

I love how Obama says he isn't going to yell and get mad... but now he's "looking for someone's ass to kick."

God, could it be more contrived?

Come on you Obama supporters! Let's talk about how he's talking tough now!