Yeah, and what have you found over the years? What change have you seen from the politicians that you trusted?

When change comes for you, and your lifestyle is more accepted, it won't be because of who you voted for. It will be because the zeitgeist shifted and you'll be more accepted and then politicians will be more likely to reach out to you and then try to get you to give them credit for being so helpful to you.

Joxur: Honestly, I could answer your entire series of questions with one word:

Palin.

Really? Because it doesn't look like it from my vantage point.

70% of the american public doesn't agree on almost anything and yet they agree that DADT should be struck down.

Yet, our politicans seem to be doing their damnedest to ensure that it isn't.

What the people wants doesn't matter any more to these people. They've become the American royalty, playing their game of thrones and throwing us to the wolves.

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There's really no response to people who vote on the "lesser of two evils" line. It is literally the biggest copout you can take in voting. You can look back 2-4 years later and try to hypothesize where you'd be if things were different. Whether that's with Hillary Clinton as the nominee, McCain as president, or even Kerry back in 2006. But that's about it.

I wonder why you guys even made the pretense to care about specific issues, when the stance of the people with the big (D) in front of their name was irrelevant. Why care about warrant-less wiretapping when you'll accept Obama's lies about changing it? It seems like you wasted a lot of energy during the Bush years getting so outrageously outraged about issues when they really matter very little. If you're such pragmatists, whey are you so defensive of the administration when it - rightly so - gets the criticism it deserves?

I find it hard to believe that your lesser of two evils rule will ever be in favor of voting for someone with a (R) in front of their name. At which point, if you can be honest with yourselves, means that you're really just voting along party lines, no matter how you rationalize it to yourselves.

You may not think you are contributing to the system we have, but you are. Rugen has it nailed. If you never hold your politicians accountable, they know they can pander to their voting block during elections, but never have to fulfill their obligations. You are literally your own worst enemy when you pretend to care about universal health coverage, for example, then accept a tenth of it when your party *dominates* the executive and legislative branches of government. No political risk NEED be taken when they can pass a shadow of it and know that people like you will line right up every 4 years to happily vote along.

That's Rugen's point, as I interpret it. I just bailed a long time before he did.

I get what you are saying but i don't think it can happen gradually it has to be a drastic change nation wide.

Based on their platforms there is no possible chance i would have supported any of the last few GOP canidates for president. I could vote 3rd party but thats is how i think we got stuck with W the first time so now i am gun shy and will probably solidly vote Dem just because i know the GOP does not represent my views.

Maybe its a pie in the sky dream but what i really hope is that the GOP will see the blind devotion to dems and finally realize if they are going to capture any of that voting block they are going to have to move drastically more centrist and not this crap of moving further right trying to solidify their voting base.

I think we would all agree that the two parties are more alike than not. I can, at least. Maybe not in the trenches, at the state levels or even in the house and senate. But certainly the presidential candidates, once they are nominated, are probably going to do a lot of the same stuff. We're still in Afghanistan, aren't we? Is Gitmo closed yet? How're those civil liberties going?

With that said, what's more powerful from a political standpoint? Protecting your point of view with defensive voting, picking the lesser of two evils... or sacrificing 4 years of governance by a group you don't like, but sending a message to your nominee that you won't tolerate the lies and misleading campaign rhetoric that gets them to power?

Until more people are willing to do that, nothing will change. You can talk about your tough choice, that "hey, I don't like him that much either, but it's better than the other guy". But what will EVER change if you keep doing that? You're perpetuating the system you rail against.

The reality is that with McCain in power, you know what would change? Not a whole damn lot. But not a whole damn lot has changed even with Dems in a supermajority. The war in Afghanistan is a total fucking mess. Our economy is not growing private sector jobs *at all*. Our political process is as deadlocked as ever. Gitmo ain't closed and won't be for the foreseeable future. We're no closer to equal rights for gays than we were 2 years ago. Our foreign policy is a disaster and we've made no progress with Iran, North Korea, Israel/Palestine or Russia.

And you know why nothing has changed since Obama got elected? Because for the 2 years of a Democratic controlled Congress, they did nothing. So you rewarded them by putting even more of them in power and giving them an even larger majority, as well as the executive branch. What incentive is there for them to really do anything? They know they can lie to you, their loyal supporters, and not only will you accept it, they can probably scare you enough about the evil conservatives to get you to donate (lol).

If you took an even somewhat impartial look at the last election, the process was extraordinary. I watched as Hillary Clinton was demagogued and demonized until she became the lesser of two evils. I then watched as McCain, the person with the *most* bipartisan record of any of the mainstream candidates, was demonized and demagogued. It was enough to take your breath away.

So right now, your disappointment stings. But in another year, once the campaign machine fires up, there will be enough garbage out there to turn whoever the GOP nominee is into the devil incarnate, and once again... you'll faithfully trudge back to the voting booth, eager to reelect the person who violated so many promises.

Here's the problem, in a nutshell: Through voting alone, it's impossible to make your view clear to a candidate.

So to answer your question, Jox, both of those options are pretty sad. If you want to make your voice heard, run for office. Otherwise, you can send any telepathic message you want while you're voting, but it's not likely to reach its intended target.

Interesting thoughts. It's sure nice that for once it isn't so vitriolic.



Four years of governance by a group I don't like is much worse than voting for the lesser of two evils. The "message" you are trying to send by not voting for your own stances is doesn't get sent. By voting like that, you are just giving up everything you believe in to send a message you don't even know for sure is being heard. This is not worth it.



There is SO much here that is just coming from your perspective of "everything Obama does is bad, no matter what," so I'm not going to address it. I'll merely say that I disagree about the truth of most of it and just let it go at that.

However, I do want to point out a sentence in the middle, where you state that "our political process is as deadlocked as ever," as though this is a bad thing. But you want divided government, right? That gridlock is a direct result of the divided government you crave.



I wanted to Hillary too, and hopefully you remember that. But Obama isn't that much different. McCain, however was simply not an option for me, and never was, for a variety of reasons. Obama too was demonized and demagogued as well, but you believed that rhetoric so you don't see it that way.



As long as the GOP candidate continues to support issues that I disagree with more than his or her opponent, it is true that I will not vote for him or her. That's it, for me. I can't control the lying, and both sides do it. I have to simply go with the one that at least makes an attempt to be on my side.

BTW, I am still not as cynical as some here. I believe, and always have believed, that Bush was acting in what he sincerely believed was good for the country. I believe the same about Obama. I believe, in fact, that many or most of our leaders are there in Washington because of a sincere desire to change the country in good ways. I just don't agree with what many think those good ways are, and I believe that the process to get and keep a position in Washington is so corrupt it's nearly impossible to stay clean and keep your job.

Yeah, and we're just now seeing some movement in the "Repeal DADT" category. Imagine that, it starts to become politically beneficial to do the right thing and Washington starts doing it.

Don't trick yourself into thinking that - when DADT gets repealed, gay marriage is wholly recognized and you're allowed to adpot anywhere at will - that the politicians stepped up and did it. It'll be because they had their finger on the pulse of things, the public opinion started to shift to tolerate gays, and they moved accordingly.

It's funny because I'm currently a registered republican and I'm supporting several republican candidates for local office.

But yeah, I didn't vote for McCain just because I'm racist against Republicans, right?

You must be reading different news than I am. Everything I've seen is a lot of posturing by people that know the bill won't make it. In fact, right now the current thought is that Obama himself will veto the bill:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2010/06 ... ont_a.html

(aside)
You know what, Obama? Swallow your pride and accept the cost of a plane as the price of doing the right thing. Make the fight about how they tacked that onto the bill to try and make you veto it, but that if those people want to make a plane the cost of doing right by the gay and lesbians risking their lives to protect this country? YOU'LL PAY IT. I mean, fuck.

But he won't. No.....he's going to pretend that the plane is this big line in the sand that is going to "sadly" make him veto it.
(/aside)

At this point, Lady Gaga is a way more "fierce advocate" for gay rights than he's been and that is just pathetic. He says the right things, but his actions have been about as contrary to that over the last year and a half as they could be.

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Of course. They're testing the waters and seeing if actually passing this bill will make them look good or if it'll make more pissed off people than happy people. This is because they're still not sure if the public is ok with gays.

In another year or five or ten, the public will be even more supportive of gay rights and the politicians might acutally pass something bigger and more meaningful.

Why? Because what's right and what's popular are two very different things. If you think most politicians are willing to sacrifice popularity for righteousness, you're deluding yourself.

Yes but what i really want is the GOP to change. I want the party of limited government to actually stay out of things that are not the governments business such as their stance on gay marriage as just one example. So that i would be willing vote GOP even as a spite vote to try to get the Dems to actually change.

Right now I feel I have is a monty hall choice of do you want what is under toilet lid #1 or a straight up turd. Given that i might still get a turd when i pick toliet lid #1 it is still a better chance than just taking the turd straight away.

What i would love to see is the tea party fracture the GOP and something like the green party or anything fracture the Dems such that we suddenly had a viable 3rd parties. But it will take fracturing both parties at the same time otherwise we just get what happened with Perot and Nader.

I really have resigned myself to the fact that the country has limited sustainability. I expect China to be running the show sometime in the next 50 years. I just hope I can be positioned to profit from it.

"This American Life" last Saturday was quite sobering and dealt with budget issues in New York (and by extension the US itself). I remember about halfway through the show thinking that we were screwed. It was a good case for ending the democracy experimenting and finding a dictator, heh!

The only benefit to going dictator would be if we could FINALLY invade Canada.

Check out the picture at this link:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=44375

(Click the pic for the full size picture.)

I just flew over the area for the first time in a month and it looks a lot better than I expected.

More foolishness.

It doesn't help or harm anything that Obama was golfing.

That sinkhole idea is pretty damn scary...as it's totally plausible. I suppose if the outflow of oil is fast enough to create a void below it the now thin surface wouldn't be able to resist all that water and just collapse inward. Now that would be one huge mess.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

I hate when idiots see Obama doing something or knowing something about pop culture and automatically assume he should be using that time doing something else to help the country. Seriously, there was the typical outrage because Obama mentioned The Situation and Snookie in a speech. As if him knowing who they are suddenly means he's wasting all of his time watching Jersey Shore instead of running the fucking country. So many fucking morons in this country, I swear.

OBAMA FILLED OUT AN NCAA BRACKET WHILE PEOPLE ARE JOBLESS?@!#@$#

What are you talking about?

Thought I made it pretty clear.

(I wasn't referring to you, just making an observation)

Going back to the politics off-topic thread a bit...

There is so much "the dems and the GOP are just alike" going on why don't people see that the time is NOW for the smaller parties to step up? You don't have to vote for a Republican or a Democrat. I know many state election laws are made up so that you are limited in your choice (we need to get those laws changed) but we NEED to have another voice in our political machine. Remove the Red/Blue dividing lines add White, Yellow, Purple, Green and you will start to see more of our Representative Republic being of the PEOPLE again and not OF the PARTY.

We need to educate people on exactly what their choices are. You can't start from the top and expect change you have to start the change at the voter. Get the voters more educated to what the issues are and exactly how the candidates have already acted on them and then let the voters make an educated decision.

I just don't like someone in that position giving those idiots any more publicity.