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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:51 AM 
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Well, they are talking at least.

Face to Face, Obama Urges GOP to Join Dems on Job-Creation Efforts

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In a remarkably sharp face-to-face confrontation, President Obama chastised Republican lawmakers Friday for opposing him on taxes, health care and the economic stimulus, while they accused him in turn of brushing off their ideas and driving up the national debt.

The president and GOP House members took turns questioning and sometimes lecturing each other for more than hour at a Republican gathering in Baltimore. The Republicans agreed to let TV cameras inside, resulting in an extended, point-by-point interchange that was almost unprecedented in U.S. politics, except perhaps during presidential debates.

With voters angry about partisanship and legislative logjams, both sides were eager to demonstrate they were ready to cooperate, resulting in the GOP invitation and Obama's acceptance. After polite introductions, however, Friday's exchange showed that Obama and the Republicans remain far apart on key issues, and neither side could resist the chance to challenge and even scold the other.

Obama said Republican lawmakers have attacked his health care overhaul so fiercely, "you'd think that this thing was some Bolshevik plot." His proposals are mainstream, widely supported ideas, he said, and they deserve some GOP votes in Congress.

"I am not an ideologue," the president declared.

But Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., pointedly asked Obama: "What should we tell our constituents who know that Republicans have offered positive solutions" for health care, "and yet continue to hear out of the administration that we've offered nothing?"

Obama showed little sympathy, disputing Price's claim that a Republican plan would insure nearly all Americans without raising taxes.

"That's just not true," said Obama. He called such claims "boilerplate" meant to score political points.

At times it seemed more like Britain's "question time" -- when lawmakers in the House of Commons trade barbs with the prime minister -- than a meeting between a U.S. president and members of Congress.

Republican Conference Chairman Mike Pence of Indiana defended Price on the health care proposals. He said a GOP agenda booklet given to Obama at the start of the session "is backed up by precisely the kind of detailed legislation that Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi and your administration have been busy ignoring for 12 months."

Obama shot back that he had read the Republican proposals and that they promise solutions that can't be realized.

In another barbed exchange, the president said some Republican lawmakers in the audience had attended ribbon-cutting ceremonies for projects in their districts funded by the 2009 stimulus package that they voted against.

Pence said Obama was trying to defend "a so-called stimulus that was a piecemeal list of projects and boutique tax cuts."

Obama replied, "When you say they were boutique tax cuts, Mike, 95 percent of working Americans got tax cuts."

"This notion that this was a radical package is just not true," he said.

Republicans are feeling energized after winning a Democratic Senate seat in Massachusetts, and Obama is trying to refocus his stalled agenda more on jobs than health care. With Obama at a podium facing a hotel conference room full of Republicans, both sides jumped to the debate.

"It was the kind of discussion that we frankly need to have more of," said House Republican Whip Eric Cantor of Virginia.

"I'm having fun, this is great," Obama said when Pence asked if he had time for more questions.

"So are we," said Pence.

Some Republicans prefaced their questions with lengthy recitations of conservative talking points. The president sometimes listened impassively but sometimes broke in.

"I know there's a question in there somewhere, because you're making a whole bunch of assertions, half of which I disagree with," Obama said to Rep. Jeb Hensarling of Texas, whom he mistakenly called "Jim."

Obama, a former law school professor, launched into lectures of his own at times. He warned lawmakers from both parties against demonizing a political opponent, because voters might find it incomprehensible if the two sides ever agree on anything.

"We've got to be careful about what we say about each other sometimes, because it boxes us in in ways that makes it difficult for us to work together because our constituents start believing us," Obama said. "So just a tone of civility instead of slash-and-burn would be helpful."

Republicans sat attentively for the most part. There was some grumbling when Obama remarked -- after being pressed about closed-door health care negotiations -- that much of the legislation was developed in congressional committees in front of television cameras.

"That was a messy process," Obama said.

GOP lawmakers pressured him to support a presidential line-item veto for spending bills and to endorse across-the-board tax cuts. Obama said he was ready to talk about the budget proposal, though he disputed accusations that his administration was to blame for big increases in deficit spending. And he demurred on the idea of cutting everyone's taxes, saying with a smile that billionaires don't need tax cuts.

In his opening remarks, Obama criticized what he said was a Washington culture driven by opinion polls and nonstop political campaigns.

"I don't believe that the American people want us to focus on our job security, they want us to focus on their job security," he said.

The president acknowledged that Republicans have joined Democrats in some efforts, such as sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan. But he said he was disappointed and perplexed by virtually unanimous GOP opposition to other programs, such as the economic stimulus bill.

Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., said of the event, "In some places I kind of felt like I was in my high school assembly being lectured by my principal. In others, I felt like he was listening."


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:54 AM 
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The video.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:57 AM 
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That sounds like it would be fun to watch / listen to. I wonder if I can find it online somewhere.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:09 AM 
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Fribur wrote:
That sounds like it would be fun to watch / listen to. I wonder if I can find it online somewhere.


Just posted.

Something else that is interesting.


All statements involving Barack Obama(Link)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:50 AM 
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Wow, it's all starting to unravel.

Now, it's the Republican's fault that his own party killed health care reform?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:58 AM 
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both parties killed it, Orme. If there were any Republicans doing actual, reasonable thought on the issue instead of holding the, "we must make Obama fail" line at all costs, there would have been at least some Republicans voting for it.

That said, I at least understand your sentiment. The Democrat's inability to stand together as a block is their Achilles heel, perhaps. Part of me is reassured when Republicans OR Democrats split on issues, though-- at least then there is an appearance that politicians are thinking for themselves and not just towing the party line.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:25 AM 
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I thought 60 votes was the holy grail?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:12 AM 
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The Dems probably would have passed a health bill if they didn't get sidetracked to catering to special interest groups. Meeting with Union officials and the following day exempting them from paying the proposed taxes until 2019 was the final nail in the coffin (at least short term until they modify it). There are plenty of things the Republicans in power should take heat for, but the the healthcare failure isn't one of them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:19 PM 
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Fribur wrote:
both parties killed it, Orme. If there were any Republicans doing actual, reasonable thought on the issue instead of holding the, "we must make Obama fail" line at all costs, there would have been at least some Republicans voting for it.

That said, I at least understand your sentiment. The Democrat's inability to stand together as a block is their Achilles heel, perhaps. Part of me is reassured when Republicans OR Democrats split on issues, though-- at least then there is an appearance that politicians are thinking for themselves and not just towing the party line.
Look, you can rationalize the defeat all you want, but thre is no way to interpret health care's failure as anything but a total failure of the Democrats. It has nothing to do with "thinking for themselves". It has to do with them catering to special interests in their home states. Harry Reid's sad effort to save his seat is going to cost a lot more Democrat seats.

And while it may make you feel good to think Republicans just want Obama to fail, the fact is that there were enough Republicans willing to come across the aisle to get this thing passed. They wanted the same concessions the Blue Dogs wanted, but the extreme members of the Dems are also the ones running the Dems - so now it has failed completely. And a seat that has held a Democrat butt for decades now hosts a neo-con.

Whether you agree or disagree with the policies, when it was the Republicans, they got the work done.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:51 PM 
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This appearance is probably the single greatest thing he has done in his year in office. It doesn't change the total failure of the Dems in congress however.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:18 PM 
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If the "extreme" Democrats were running the show, we would have a single payer system. I would have been very happy with that. This is not "extreme." This bill tried too hard to be everything to everyone. It's a perfect example of "moderation" gone awry.

Quote:
I thought 60 votes was the holy grail?


Since my general stances agree with the far left, I thought so too, assuming that they would stick together as a block. Sadly for someone like me, they didn't, as I already pointed out.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:34 PM 
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Your party's LEADER said he wants to end partisan bickering, etc. But, his own party cannot even manage to compromise within its own ranks. And what do you do? You blame the your party's COMPLETE FAILURE on MODERATION and the Republicans. Do you not get how incredibly, laughably stupid that is?

Delusional? Nah, not you.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:41 AM 
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Not exactly. Look at what happened to the bill over time. At first, single payer was discussed-- then thrown out to be more "moderate." Then, the "public option" came and was thrown out to be more "centrist." On and on, until we got a bill so messed up few of us support it. Republicans and Democrats asked for all kinds of concessions, and kept getting them... then Republicans blacklisted the bill anyway.

An "extreme" bill would be real, actual socialized medicine. How is watered-down hodge podge of stuff in the bill right now "extreme?"


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:04 PM 
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Quote:
You blame the your party's COMPLETE FAILURE on MODERATION and the Republicans. Do you not get how incredibly, laughably stupid that is?


If you weren't so eager to "lol pwn" Fribur, you'd realize that yes...trying to please everyone (or "moderation") is a great way to screw up a bill like this.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:54 PM 
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Failing to take responsibility for fuckups - congrats Fribur, you've just taken the 20th step in your journey to becoming the Democrat equivalent of a Bushie.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:59 AM 
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Do you even read my posts? Here, I'll quote myself.

Quote:
both parties killed it, Orme.


Quote:
The Democrat's inability to stand together as a block is their Achilles heel


Quote:
Sadly for someone like me, they didn't, as I already pointed out.


"They" in that referred to Democrats.

Quote:
Republicans and Democrats asked for all kinds of concessions, and kept getting them


Now shut the fuck up.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:48 AM 
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If Joxur read posts, he wouldn't be Joxur. <3


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:27 AM 
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No.. Both parties didn't kill it. The Democrats killed it. They needed literally zero Republican votes, in either chamber. Period. You shouldn't have expected any GOP support. The Dems failed, completely. They failed the message war, they failed to get their own party on board. They failed at every level.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:34 AM 
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Nice backpedal.

I say again. Shut the fuck up.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:35 AM 
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If only Fribur had already posted something to that effect...

Oh wait, here it is, just a little above your post and quoted again just after that!

Quote:
The Democrat's inability to stand together as a block is their Achilles heel


Like I said, if Joxur actually read posts, he wouldn't be Joxur. Just gotta forget it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:02 PM 
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Quote:
both parties killed it, Orme.
He also wrote that.

Both parties didn't kill it. Dems killed it. Period. You got what you wanted - 60 votes. There's no one to blame but your party. End of discussion.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:43 PM 
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Since you need a history lesson, here's what YOU said. When Surcam criticized the Dem Congress for accomplishing nothing in terms of checking president Bush, you wrote:

Quote:
Until there are 60 Democratic votes in the Senate, the President's veto will overpower any attempt the Democrats have made to make good on their promises.


Quote:
Without a larger majority, it's NOT POSSIBLE to make good on many of those promises. That's my point. You are angry at them because they can't accomplish the impossible.


Quote:
Once again, without the power to override the auto-veto, what do you expect them to do about this? My point is made (again). Bush wins until they get 60 votes. Republicans have kept in solidarity. Therefore, there isn't shit the Democrats can do.
So what's the excuse now? Dems have both POTUS AND 60 votes. How in any way shape or form can it be true that "both parties killed it"? At the beginning of the year there was discussion about a new longterm Dem majority, the GOP was so demoralized and out of power. A year later we have a GOP congressman in Ted Kennedy's seat. The Dems have failed in literally every way they could. It's on them. Stop being such a pussy about it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:31 PM 
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Both parties did kill most attempts at quality legislation. They're equally ineffective.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:24 PM 
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It isn't the Dems job to pass health reform alone. Republicans failed at their duty as much as the Democrats did. Dems have an excuse though in that they're pansy asses who couldn't lead a fat man to an ice cream cone.

The republicans could have easily published a viable plan of their own. They chose not to, believing that claiming that you could provide healthcare, lower taxes and decrease the deficit all at the same time was as good as doing it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:13 PM 
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Devyn wrote:
The republicans could have easily published a viable plan of their own. They chose not to, believing that claiming that you could provide healthcare, lower taxes and decrease the deficit all at the same time was as good as doing it.


Do some research instead of relying on our crappy media to keep you informed:
http://rules-republicans.house.gov/Medi ... 3962_9.pdf

Now, before I get jumped I do NOT agree with this 'plan' but to continue to say that they never offered one when in fact they did is ridiculous (even Obama was forced to admit that error).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:31 PM 
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I will be the first to admit that I haven't researched the GOP plan very much, but from what I have read, it wouldn't expand coverage to any great degree and could sacrifice coverage for lower premious. That's not a viable plan imo.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:44 PM 
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Quote:
Both parties did kill most attempts at quality legislation. They're equally ineffective.
You're so wrong it's fucking comical.

Any health care bill, of any stripe, was dead on arrival. Stimulus and TARP killed health care reform. 10% unemployment killed health care reform. Government takeover of GM killed healthcare reform. In short, the economy. The public had no appetite to address health care reform. While most were sympathetic to the idea, a large majority had no urgent problem with their own coverage. The Dems just made it a foregone conclusion by their total mishandling of the issue.

Having said that, the second part of your statement is completely accurate. Both parties are dysfunctional.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:51 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Quote:
You blame the your party's COMPLETE FAILURE on MODERATION and the Republicans. Do you not get how incredibly, laughably stupid that is?


If you weren't so eager to "lol pwn" Fribur, you'd realize that yes...trying to please everyone (or "moderation") is a great way to screw up a bill like this.
Maybe... actually it's more just reflections of the facts.

Repeat after me - you had the votes. You failed.

The only "lol pwn" here is the Dems doing it to themselves and their mental midget supporters.

Keep blaming Republicans for your party's failures and we'll have an elephant in Washington again real soon.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:54 PM 
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Devyn wrote:
It isn't the Dems job to pass health reform alone. Republicans failed at their duty as much as the Democrats did. Dems have an excuse though in that they're pansy asses who couldn't lead a fat man to an ice cream cone.
There was a bill that was ready to pass. Harry Reid sunk it. The Democrats complete ineptitude cost them the majority.

I just don't understand why this is so hard to understand or admit.

I voted for Bush in 2000. After the debacle in Iraq, I went the other way and admitted how embarrassed I was of the bad decision. I voted for Obama in 2008, and I find him completely in over his head.

I think it's sad people can't admit "their guys" are the problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:15 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Quote:
Both parties did kill most attempts at quality legislation. They're equally ineffective.
You're so wrong it's fucking comical.

Any health care bill, of any stripe, was dead on arrival. Stimulus and TARP killed health care reform. 10% unemployment killed health care reform. Government takeover of GM killed healthcare reform. In short, the economy. The public had no appetite to address health care reform. While most were sympathetic to the idea, a large majority had no urgent problem with their own coverage. The Dems just made it a foregone conclusion by their total mishandling of the issue.

Having said that, the second part of your statement is completely accurate. Both parties are dysfunctional.


Actually, I meant more than just health care reform. But maybe I'm just an idiot for assuming the legislative folks can handle more than a single topic at once. That's the "kill most attempts" I was referring to - just about every initiative that split the aisle, as well as some that didn't. Oh, and let's not forget filibustering the shit their own party put forward.

I was attempting to provide some meat to the statement about being dysfunctional, rather than just parroting.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:34 PM 
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With your quotes, Joxur, what is your point? I already responded to that the first time you brought it up, earlier in this thread. I already said it didn't work out the way I hoped, but you keep skipping past anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notion of who I am.

Once again... shut the fuck up.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:54 PM 
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Actually what I'm looking for is something to back up your statement that "both parties killed it". But you're full of shit, so I know you can't.

Face it. There's literally no point in voting for Democrats. None. Your party is a miserable failure. It took you less than a year to eradicate your mandate and lose all of the momentum you gained.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:23 PM 
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Quote:
Face it. There's literally no point in voting for Democrats. None. Your party is a miserable failure. It took you less than a year to eradicate your mandate and lose all of the momentum you gained.


I'd rather nothing got done than the Republicans get to pass their fucked up agenda.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:10 AM 
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Xantheus Diabolus wrote:

I'd rather nothing got done than the Republicans get to pass their fucked up agenda.


Then quit taking what the Repubs and Demos are shoveling out and find a third party candidate and vote for them.

Until we get another option in there we are going to keep getting the shit we have been getting for the past 25 years.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:49 AM 
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25?

Try 200 plus.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:21 AM 
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Quote:
Actually what I'm looking for is something to back up your statement that "both parties killed it". But you're full of shit, so I know you can't.


Are you kidding me? Remember "death committees" or whatever they called them? Deliberate misinformation designed to kill the bill? Did the Democrats come up with that?

Seriously, shut the fuck up. One single thoughtful Republican vote would have made the loss of the 60th Democrat not matter. It's BOTH of their faults.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:17 AM 
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Yeah, it was so devastating you can't even remember what they were called.

How ironic that your trump card is Sarah Palin, the dumbest human being in politics. Your argument isn't helping your cause.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:07 AM 
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It wasn't devastating to *me* because I'm not an idiot.

Unfortunately, there are millions of others who had no problem swallowing it whole. And it's only a single example among many.

I've been falling for your trolling. Silly me. Very little of what you've posted in this thread about me has any kind of truth in it, as anyone who actually reads my posts can see.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:56 AM 
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Ya know Jox, with all my work lately, I've been mostly away from these boards and was thinking you were still arguing (or at least attempting to try) somewhat rationally. But if you can't even concede that both parties absolutely destroyed most proposed legislation, including healthcare, than it's fairly pointless having the discussion. I guess you're either in full-fledged troll mode, or drinking some party koolaid. Either way, that kinda sucks. I actually enjoyed talking to you when you were mildly sane. You're as bad as the left-wing whackjobs now.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:00 PM 
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I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how you can attribute blame to both the GOP and Democrats for killing the bill. Especially how it can be so for a bill that any thinking human being would realize up front they would do everything they could to stop. No one realized that a defeated and demoralized GOP would try to latch onto this to revive itself? Seriously?

At the end of the day, the GOP could do *nothing* to stop the bill. The only thing you could claim is that the Democrats lost the battle from a PR standpoint. So let's look at that for a second. Obama came in with huge approval ratings. Health care reform was a major reason many voted for him, including independents. The GOP was downtrodden and didn't have a clear leader (and still doesn't, for fucks sake). What happened in the past 6 months is all at their feet. There was no brilliant GOP strategy that led to this. This was incompetence, pure and simple.

- Letting Pelosi and Reid hash out the details separately.
- Pushing for quick passage in late summer with no details out.
- Claiming budget neutrality that was proved false.
- Claiming you could keep your plan and your taxes wouldn't rise which has been proven false.
- Letting big Pharma have a seat at the table and kill drug reimportation after it was explicitly promised THAT WOULD NOT BE DONE. With video clips omg!
- Bribing the senators from Lousisiana and Nebraska (among others) with special exemptions just to get a vote. This was the moment I knew it was doomed.
- Contradictory statements about first a single payer option (with videos!) and then the public option.
- Focusing on health care to such an extent that voters felt you were ignoring the economy, jobs, etc.

The list goes on and on. None of that is on the GOP. The GOP won by default. It's like a football team that lost a game by fumblind two dozen times. The other team did nothing to contribute, but, hey, they did suit up, so I guess they won that game.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:41 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Elessar wrote:
Ya know Jox, with all my work lately, I've been mostly away from these boards and was thinking you were still arguing (or at least attempting to try) somewhat rationally. But if you can't even concede that both parties absolutely destroyed most proposed legislation, including healthcare, than it's fairly pointless having the discussion. I guess you're either in full-fledged troll mode, or drinking some party koolaid. Either way, that kinda sucks. I actually enjoyed talking to you when you were mildly sane. You're as bad as the left-wing whackjobs now.
The fundamental point that is chapping his ass is that while nobody is absolving the Democrats of blame, they are absolving them of total blame.

In the wake of health care failure, I give them total, absolute, undeniable blame because they had the ability to make something happen and failed. Yet, their apologists want to say "but everyone is sorta to blame."

I don't buy it, and Joxur is a lot more militant about it.

I think about my new(er) job. I deal with an area that has completely bottlenecked productivity for 5+ years. I came in and people kept saying, "you're fucked, they'll drown your proposals." A lot of my team members were negative, but I found ways around and we've made progress. I didn't do it by coming in and changing the world - I did it by finding small wins.

That is why the Democrats have failed. Everyone wants to say "the health care system is totally broken." Yet, in all this time they have made no meaningful changes. Are you telling me they are completely unable to come up with ANYTHING at all they could force down the throats of the Republicans?

To me, that is a sign of utter, complete, and miserable ineptitude.

I think Joxur, like me, wants some of these die-hards to fully acknowledge that instead of copping out and saying, "well, there's blame to go around."


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:30 PM 
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Oh, when used as a copout, I agree. The problem is, they've politicized the issue as much as the Republicans have. The goal here was never to pass it because it was a major Obama talking point, and frankly, I can see the appeal. Unfortunately, that maneuvering and party base management actually is HURTING their constituents. What should be something that needs to be compromised on (and it does) became a wedge issue. Much in the same way that men buttfucking (or what the vast majority of the sane populace considers gay rights) has become.

That's my point of view /shrug.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:35 PM 
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I'd be a lot less militant about it if I hadn't heard the ridiculous excuse from Fribur about the necessity of 60 votes 3 years ago when people pointed out the complete ineffectiveness of the Dem-run Congress. Or if Fribur were perhaps a little less of a dickface in that thread. I guess we're not the naive ones, after all.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:45 PM 
I schooled the old school.
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Don't worry. Jesus still forgives you.

Look, I'm being a dickface!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:01 PM 
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It's ok, I have thick skin. Especially towards bigots :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:58 AM 
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I'm a bigot now? I'm not prejudiced against all Christians, only you who claim to be one but do not act like one on these forums.

Perhaps you should look up the term "bigot."


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:58 AM 
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Ahh, prejudiced against a persecuted majority. I'm most definitely a bigot - Christianity, and pretty much every religion on this planet, is a waste of fucking time, space, and effort. If I were to ever pray, it would be for the god damned Rapture already.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:35 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Fribur wrote:
Don't worry. Jesus still forgives you.

Look, I'm being a dickface!
Not really a dickface, just completely unable to admit that your party failed you.

It's funny, I had you pegged as a douchebag liberal, not a douchebag Democrat.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:26 PM 
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Fribur: At least we're talking about a subject you're comfortable with, eh?

Elessar: Isn't that a bit of a stretch after the preachy "don't be a troll" post? :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:48 AM 
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Orme: I already pointed out their failure, multiple times. I'm just not willing to pretend the Republicans are innocent bystanders.

Joxur: I don't understand what you are saying.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:57 AM 
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joxur wrote:
Elessar: Isn't that a bit of a stretch after the preachy "don't be a troll" post? :)


Ask Tarot or Leo, I'm REALLY not kidding here heh.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:33 AM 
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I have no doubt, but don't jump my shit for trolling


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:17 PM 
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Big difference between my comment and the level troll you've displayed lately on the forums. I'm not really asking for your opinion, or even if you agree. Just that I'm disappointed is all.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:28 PM 
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It should be obvious by now that I'm not going to change the way I post. I was merely pointing out how absurd it was to comment on my level of troll when you make a post like yours.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:43 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Fribur wrote:
Orme: I already pointed out their failure, multiple times. I'm just not willing to pretend the Republicans are innocent bystanders.
You have a kid who gets drunk and wrecks his car. He has a friend in the car with him who was also drunk.

Do you say to your kid, "you ultimately had the power not to drive the car, but your friend is to blame too?"

No. You hold your kid accountable for what he had the power to control. The ultimate blame is in the hands of the kid who drove the car.

Same here. Did the Republicans help stop the legislation? Yes.
Does the ultimate control and blame lie in the Democrat's hands? Yes.

Plain and simple - your apologist attitude and cop-outs forgive the party that is failing you. This is the same shit that lead to 4 more years of Bush - people saying "at least he isnt' Kerry".


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:45 PM 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:17 PM 
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But Orme, we're talking about 100 people here that all have a hand in driving the car, not 2. It takes 51 to pass legislation of ANY party, assuming no filibuster, and 60 otherwise. Your analogy isn't even close to working.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:03 AM 
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It might even take more than 60. It's not like the Democrats all one big happy family with the exact same stance on the issues. People won't even bother with some of the good liberal legislation just because the red state Democrats wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. It's not even close to "control".

Personally I think the Democrats have made a lot of blunders these past few years(especially when Obama took over), but that doesn't excuse the Republicans either. When it's coming down to every last person's vote, everyone shares a little responsibility.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:23 AM 
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Whoever allowed the excrement that is in that bill is to blame.

If they WANTED to do any sort of reform they would have started by passing smaller "low hanging fruit" changes that would get towards a better system.


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