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 Post subject: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:43 PM 
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I thought this was interesting:

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... china.html

Quote:
Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different.

First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.

Third, as part of this investigation but independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties. These accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users' computers.


And as a result of this, Google has come to the conclusion that they can no longer censor as the Chinese government wants, even if it means they need to shut down their offices and google.cn entirely:


Quote:
These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.


I'm glad to see them getting out of the censorship gig. Iran's recent history would be a good example of how, even when the government tries to lock down the people, the people will always find a way to get to the resources out there. You aren't helping people by playing to the government's throttling of that information.

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:39 AM 
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Google's response impresses me.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:42 AM 
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I'm just depressed it took a coordinated hack attempt to make them do this.

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:15 AM 
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*nods* but apparently china is hacking hundreds of industrial/government sites daily trying to get info w/out having to pay for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:26 AM 
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性交中國


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:04 AM 
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Givin Wetwillies wrote:
性交中國


How I mine for fish?
You want buy golids?

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:49 AM 
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heh.

China is being attacked by the Russian Business Network (aka the Russian Mafia's cybercrime wing), but then again so is everyone else. They've been attacking us for years, and now they're having to split their time between us and Russia, while we're playing defensive agaist both Russia and China and smaller cybercrime rings. This is a good thing to have publicized and I'm glad google is going public with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:16 PM 
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Givin Wetwillies wrote:
性交中國
Loosely translated, I think that says "F- China"

If I'm wrong, blame Google Translate.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:14 PM 
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you're correct leo.

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:36 AM 
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Got an email in Chinese last night saying that someone had requested a password reset for my gmail account. I had no idea I was a human rights activist in China. Maybe that's why I'm so tired.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:10 AM 
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Quote:
Loosely translated, I think that says "F- China"


I didn't even have to look it up to know that. It is Givin, after all :p.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:21 PM 
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When you're motto is "Don't be evil", then I think you have to err on the side of human rights.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:00 AM 
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I'm glad they decided to err after 3-4 years of suppressing speech.

Quote:
I didn't even have to look it up to know that. It is Givin, after all :p.


I'm not buying it! Givin has always had love in his heart for asians. Especially the Japanese folks in FFXI.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:55 PM 
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was anyone else really bothered by the fact that verisign confirmed this attack originated with the chinese govt and yet it the mainstream media didn't cover it?

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:59 PM 
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heh, I wouldn't expect the mainstream media to report it -- very few media outlets (even the big ones) have competent technical journalists.

To be honest, the vast majority (and by that I do mean VAST) majority of "hacking" (spyware, malware, trojan horses, etc) come from two places : Russia (organized crime) and China (government sponsored)

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:44 AM 
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Wait, "confirmed" that the source was the Chinese gov't? Last I heard they had 2 anonymous sources and even then suggested that it was only a possibility. Even if it came from a government IP address, which it sounds like we still don't know for sure, how are we supposed to actually know it wasn't a rogue op?

At best the media would report another "maybe it came from the Chinese government"... which... well, they sorta already did with what Google claimed. Not sure if they're supposed to report every individual organization's independent investigation, or what.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:24 AM 
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The Chinese government went after a few of the folks targeted, and had used the information prior to the attack leaking to CERT. They really do not care enough to hide this sort of thing. China has very weird laws with regard to citizens rights and internet content.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:14 AM 
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I don't doubt for a second that the Chinese gov't had something to do with it(as it probably does with most of the more serious attacks), and they probably don't do much to hide it either. Even so, if I were in the media, I would want a more reliable source than "2 anonymous sources in the U.S. government" if I were to go to print with an article whose focus is stating that the Chinese government had been linked. If it's just a sidenote in a related article, then I don't see a problem with popping out the old "An anonymous source told us this" line.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:00 AM 
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Google exfiltrated data that points to the Chinese government, acting through compromised servers in Taiwan. Hence the request for a formal inquiry. Dunno if Congress is going to say it outright or let China save face in exchange for trade concessions, etc..


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:00 PM 
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Venen wrote:
I'm glad they decided to err after 3-4 years of suppressing speech.
Exactly. I love how everyone touts Google as the anti-Microsoft, but they are just as much about making money as anyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:22 PM 
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Agreed... I think I like Google's business practices a bit better than Microsoft's on the whole, but they weren't exactly sent to us from the heavens either.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:39 PM 
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Venen wrote:
Agreed... I think I like Google's business practices a bit better than Microsoft's on the whole, but they weren't exactly sent to us from the heavens either.


that made me LOL

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:38 PM 
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Companies that don't have making a profit as thier #1 goal are called hobbies. Making money is not inherently evil, and in the grand scheme of things, having any ethics at all is a step above most companies. I say give Google the credit they deserve for this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:50 PM 
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Actually I wouldn't.

They were making money hand over fist before they took up shop in China, and they'll continue to make money hand over fist if they pull their operation out of China. Setting up shop under the watchful eye of the Chinese government violated their motto of "don't be evil"

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:55 PM 
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I'm sure they could argue it isn't being evil, it was hoped to be the 1st steps to a more open and friendly China. Rome wasn't built in a day etc etc. The fact that it was a huge market and potential profit center makes it all the better. Is McDonalds evil for selling burgers in china, or Coke for soda? If you say no but only because they are not compromising thier principles because there is no censorship involved, it is ignoring the fact that even a google-less china has censorship. Google is not promoting it, merely working withen the confines any other similar company would need to endure to be in that market.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:19 PM 
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McDonald's and Coke don't have a primary corporate motto of "Don't be evil"

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:21 PM 
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The supreme and amusing irony being that Google is, in fact, evil.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:35 PM 
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Drajeck wrote:
Companies that don't have making a profit as thier #1 goal are called hobbies. Making money is not inherently evil, and in the grand scheme of things, having any ethics at all is a step above most companies. I say give Google the credit they deserve for this one.
Nobody said making money is evil. Compromising on human rights to make money may not even be completely evil. But, when your motto is "Don't be evil", you really need to err on the side of caution.

And as a note, Google has stated multiple times that its intent is not to make money. Which is one reason I would never buy their stock. We can all see how that's working for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:39 PM 
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Google's stock is the most overvalued shit on the market.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:47 PM 
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A tech stock that has a huge competitive advantage, absolute name recognition and trading at 38x earnings. Not a steal, but certainly not the most overvalued stock out there.

For full disclosure I've never owned it, but I considered buying options on it when it was in the low 400's. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, but I can't complain, I went with Apple instead and that's been doing great too.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:45 PM 
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Apple I get. The cash reserves alone and a continually growing marketshare in a number of areas makes it attractive.

Google, however, needs to make some positive gains in other areas with an actual revenue generating business model that extends beyond AdSense. If not, it's in for a real crash. You see, I want my investments to earn money, rather than generate brand recognition.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:39 AM 
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Well, that didn't take long. The CEO backed down.

Google will "continue to follow their laws" and "continue to offer censored results"

"We wish to remain in China. We like the Chinese people and our Chinese employees. We like the business opportunities there and we'd like to do that on somewhat different terms than we have, but we remain quite committed to being there," he said on Thursday.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 ... headlines#

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:44 AM 
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Google made about 6.5 billion in profits last year. It's ok to not like it, I haven't really studied this stock, but I wouldn't say it was a rip off or a company that wasn't "earning money" or just living off name recognition.


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:36 AM 
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Google has money generating items that are not AdSense, you just don't hear about them unless you sign a rather hefty NDA.

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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:08 PM 
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The saga continues: Google to Redirect China Users to Uncensored Site (source)

"Don't be evil" or "don't lose money"? Bold stance on human rights, or face-saving retreat from a failing market?
NYT 3/22 wrote:
Just over two months after threatening to leave China because of censorship and intrusions from hackers, Google on Monday closed its Internet search service there and began directing users in that country to its uncensored search engine in Hong Kong.

...

“It is certainly a historic moment,” said Xiao Qiang of the China Internet project at the University of California, Berkeley. “The Internet was seen as a catalyst for China being more integrated into the world. The fact that Google cannot exist in China clearly indicates that China’s path as a rising power is going in a direction different from what the world expected and what many Chinese were hoping for.”

While other multinational companies are not expected to follow suit, some Western executives say Google’s decision is a symbol of a worsening business climate in China for foreign corporations and perhaps an indication that the Chinese government is favoring home-grown companies. Despite its size and reputation for innovation, Google trails its main Chinese rival, Baidu.com, which was modeled on Google, with 33 percent market share to Baidu’s 63 percent.

The decision to shut down google.cn will have a limited financial impact on Google, which is based in Mountain View, Calif. China accounted for a small fraction of Google’s $23.6 billion in global revenue last year. Ads that once appeared on google.cn will now appear on Google’s Hong Kong site. Still, abandoning a direct presence in the largest Internet search market in the world could have long-term repercussions and thwart Google’s global ambitions, analysts say.

...

I just think it's fucking fascinating to watch a multinational corporation square off with a major nation state. It's like it doesn't even matter that one's a company and the other's a country, all that matters is power!


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:35 PM 
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Should it? Why?


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 Post subject: Re: Google vs. China
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:44 PM 
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Google is a Superpower without borders.

Just like Skynet.


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