I know that most of you don't give a shit about our national debt as long as the programs you support get passed. Frankly I find that a highly immoral position for a number of reasons including:

~our standard of living being artificially propped up on the backs of working people in other countries who have what we would consider poverty level SoLs.
~shifting costs to future generations for handouts to this generation.
~putting our government in the position where we can't take stands on human rights because we are so dependent on Chinese buying of our debt.

Maybe this will wake you take a more serious look at the issue:



Scared yet? Ready to take this issue as seriously as healthcare reform or global warming?

**sits back and waits for the back lash on this post**

P.S. You're right on with it.

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

I was just looking at this the other night and trying to gather figures on things like "how much do we spend on foreign aid every year".

I've never understood how we continue to hand out money to other countries when we have to borrow funds and increase our debt. Charity is not going to the bank, taking out 5 grand in loans and sending it to the charity of your choice. Charity is what you do with excess funds after you and yours are taken care of.

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Aid is an odd nut to crack. Some of it is a monetary value of debt relief or food surplus.

It doesn't bother me so much as our lack of exercised control over where it goes.... 'a_Congolese_warlord00 says 'Thanks bros!'

as long as there are hungry people in the US, there's no such thing as a food surplus.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I completely agree, Kula... I think about the debt a lot too.

Vana, I disagree with you-- a food surplus simply indicates having more food than needed to feed everyone in a given system, which we have. Poor distribution can cause people to go hungry no matter how much food you have on hand.

Devil, I'm not sure what "backlash" you expect.

There are so many variables in play I don't know what to think anymore except, probably, we get what we deserve. I can't even blame the politicians and the corporations completely anymore because we keep falling for their bullshit propaganda and lies (even when we know a spade for a spade) that we're just as culpable now. Too much power is in the hands of people who don't give a shit and I don't see a way to reasonably rectify it anymore.

Rugen, I put some figures on aid in the healthcare reform thread awhile ago; they were the best I could find. Even if we were to put a moratorium on all aid for a decade it wouldn't be enough to pay off our debt.

Bzalthek, yeah it's a huge problem that seems insurmountable but it's not going away and there are things that can be done. Would they be considered 'reasonable' by you? I doubt it but they are necessary and the remedies will have to be more unreasonable and draconian the longer we put it off.

Here's an interesting article on the debt ceiling vote coming up shortly (as far as I can tell there's no date set for it yet):


Congress and the Administration need to know that not only are people watching but that we care.

Obama administration predicts $30B loss on auto bailout

Literally do not care at all about anything the OP has to say, as accurate as it may be. Someone else who isn't a total waste of internet say the same things so I'm inclined to read it without hearing it plagiarized from Fox and The Economist.

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and you have to love this:

(story)

When Obama came into office the administration was saying that they would get the TARP monies back and make money on it, well they haven't made it back or made money on it, but they are already spending that supposed income on these projects.

(story)

and if you want to know scary:
(story)

And this is before any so-called health care bill or cap and tax bill has been passed.

This administration NEEDS to go back to Clinton's mantra "It's the economy, stupid" We don't need these additional bloated government programs when there is 10+% unemployment; real unemployment is 17+% (story)

I came to the same conclusion in my maths, but that doesn't mean we just continue to throw cash we don't have at other nations. That's sort of like saying "we can't patch the hole in the boat, so we may as well fill these buckets with ocean water and dump them in the boat to make it sink faster."

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I completely agree. I was just pointing out that sacrafice on tthe domestic side is not only warranted but necessary.

Indeed. But if you also cut foreign aid, pull all our troops home and redirect some of our insane military budget, put a stop to the rebuilding of other nations when our own is tumbling away to debt, and just refocus all our our resources HERE rather that OVER THERE.....that sacrifice would be considerably less.

I've always been an isolationist. Recent polls show that the general populace is starting to agree with me in ever increasing numbers.

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Does anyone have those foreign aid numbers?

And speaking of excessive military spending, why isn't a reduction on the table? Are those in power to proud too reduce the country to 'ordinary' levels of defense spending?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

So we can ship food overseas to foreign countries, but we can't fix our internal distribution system? I don't believe that you think this for a single minute.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

The assumption there is that the system operates logically, which it doesn't.

I'd be willing to bet cash that the amount of money wasted in fraud alone from the TARP and stimulus packages exceeds, by a large margin, the amount we just spent to surge in Afghanistan.

Our internal distribution system is based on capitalism, which will never feed everyone, as not everyone will always have earned the money to pay for it. This has nothing to do with the fact that we do, indeed, have a food surplus. We just rely on a system not designed to make sure everyone gets the food they need.

There must be millions of pounds of food wasted on stuff that gets dumped by stores for just being one day past their expiration date(when in reality most of those goods can often last a couple weeks or more, depending on the product), so I'm curious how we could NOT have a food surplus in the U.S.

First off, to say "no more foreign aid" is a generally ignorant statement. It's akin to the folks who say "no more welfare." The fact is, you will pay for it in other ways, such as war, trade blocking, and other political costs, just like stopping welfare results in more law enforcement. I am not saying these are all directly correlated, but every money move has a reaction. Sure - saying "forget aid" sounds good, but it is more complicated.

Also, bear in mind that debt is not necessarily a bad thing. There is actually some aspects of currency devaluation that is GOOD for the economy. For example - inflation may be considered bad, but if you have $10,000 in credit card debt, a weaker dollar could be good for you. A weaker dollar also increases the affordability of American goods overseas - meaning more jobs at home. China is currently manipulating its currency, which is hurting us short term.

In addition, while being 12 trillion dollars in debt may not be great, the key comes down to the interest being paid and the overall contribution those dollars make in the economy.

For example, if I started a business today and took out $50,000 in loans at 1% interest and reinvested it for a 10% return, people would be clamoring about what a great businessman I am. Go look at the balance sheets of very well ran, profitable companies - they likely have a large chunk of debt. There are virtually no companies that don't carry cheap debt, and I think the debt the US carries is around 4% (I could be wrong).

In summary, people are spouting off a lot of "common sense" about an issue they really have almost no grasp of. And for the record, I don't claim to understand it, but I think I'm a firm step up on the comprehension ladder compared to people claiming they got it figured out

I don't think you fully grasp how dramatically the quality of life would plummet in the US if we went this route.

Could you expand on that?

We are one of the few nations that has the ability to be nearly entirely self sufficient. Would the transition be difficult? Yes. Walmarts everywhere would die and the mom and pop shops would make a resurgence. There would be a cost there, but I don't see this as a bad thing for a wide variety of reasons. Particularly the refocusing of energy/money/employement/law on a local/community level.

The negatives would balance out over time and if we focused on the energy aspect, we'd free ourselves on one more front.

Get our military out of the rest of the world. Let someone else play big brother and focus solely on our shores.

Fix out shit, help OUR people, rebuild OUR nation.

Are there challenges inherent in that? Sure. But I personally see them as far less risky than the path we're currently on.

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Not that it really matters but the numbers are actually closer than you would think. And by numbers I mean estimates because there is no figure for either that is accurate.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/01/obama- ... istan.html

This and other similar articles put the cost per year in the 40-50 billion range, though that cost is reliant on many variables.

There are currently 65 instances of fraud being investigated in terms of TARP. The estimates here are something in the 50-100 billion range though it's doubtful we will ever get a real figure.

Who knows where the numbers will really end up.

It's all money wasted to me.

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Wow, really? You may want to have a look at your trade deficit for starters before you go making such remarks.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

New news: US to raise debt ceiling BY $1.8 trillion.

TO 13.9 TRILLION

Who gives a shit if China owns our debt. They can never sell it for yen. It would drive the value up so far that they wouldn't be able to sell cheap products anymore due to the difference in value. It's a Catch-22 for them.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Fuck China.

It never gets old.

Wut

I'm thinking we should go ahead and take the war back off the books like it was during the Bush era. Then it won't look so bad and all these people on these boards wouldn't complain about it (they sure didn't back then! :p )

Just think about it.

Energy costs would skyrocket. You would have to ration fuels. Everyone who thinks we have unlimited cheap oil in the US needs to do some research.

Food costs would soar and the types of food available would drop. There would be massive amounts of hunger. Coffee, bananas, chocolate, many types of nuts - these are not widely produced foodstuffs. Again, just look into it. The cost of land would skyrocket because we would need additional farm space.

All the clothing you wear, all the textiles - they are minimally produced here.

All the computer equipment we use - minimal manufacturing here.

Isolating ourselves would not just be a litlte pain, it would be a massive stroke of again that would take 10+ years just to get a moderate sense of stability back.

Our quality of living is so high because we are pulling in goods made by substantially cheaper labor. That computer you're hacking on that you bought from Dell for $700 - it would probably cost $3000 or more for the next 10+ years.

I am sorry, but anyone saying "isolate" is ignorant beyond words. Look around your home - virtually nothing in it was created from scratch here in the US. We have such an amazingly comfortable life because we are, in some part, living off the backs of foreign comodities and laborers. Now, if you want to argue that is morally wrong, it's a whole different discussion.

See previous post. You make it sound like it's on par with getting a part-time job to pay off $5000 of credit card debt. I'm sorry, but your complete lack of a grasp on the subject is mind boggling. Spend 10 minutes walking through your home and write down everything you see. Then, figure out where all the components came from and how they were manufactured. Virtually nothing would be ready to be made here.

Also, while we are at - what do we have, 10% unemployment right now? And that is "bad". What do you think that number would jump to if you removed all the jobs that rely on international commerce? Shipping, flight, exporting, importing. I'm guessing 20% or more. Then, the massive wave of poverty would result in further financial collapse. You'd see 30-40% unemployment in the resulting meltdown. Our stock market dropped 2% when people thought Dubai had some bad debt.

I get it - saying "fook the world" sounds good, but it is so woefully ignorant, I don't know where to go beyond these painfully obvious reasons.

I'm not saying "fook the world", I'm saying that if we have the ability to do it here, we should. Penalize external, reward internal. It's not like we're going to toss up a giant iron curtain and nothing gets in or out, but it's cute you want to pretend that is the only way it can be done.



Trade deficits aren't even remotely close to proof that we can't produce goods here. It just means that we don't because they are cheaper elsewhere. Our goverment pays farmers to NOT produce, for example. And that is just one example. Yes, things would have a higher price if we brought it home. I don't think that is a bad thing. I think the ways that it would strengthen our nation in focusing us more on local and community aspects of our world would benefit us as well.

Cheaper does NOT equal better. Look at what Walmart has done to the market and quality, as an example. They are a pretty damn good example of the disposable culture that I think needs to be set aside.

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People probably wouldn't tolerate isolationism due to the moral implications of completely ignoring people in need who have much more unfortunate circumstances.

Even the Chinese have realized that proper and active participation in world affairs and economics can be beneficial. Just because we're doing it wrong doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and completely abandon the idea of it.

Perhaps you don't understand what the word isolationist means. North Korea is an isolationist regime.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/isolationist

We don't keep army bases and provide aid to countries striclty because we're nice - we do it to maintain stability. If you want to debate the effectiveness of specific operations/programs, that's one thing, but your basic premise is "stop doing it and only worry about ourselves." The fallacies in that assertion are too numerous to account, I listed a few off the top of my head, which you basically said "I don't mean that".

You say we should grow all our food domestically. Do you seriously not understand how problematic that would be? You act like there would be a couple days of problems and then boom - utopia. You realize there are crops we can't even grow in the US, right? I find it hard to believe that you are completely oblivious to the realities of the economy.

Isolationism is not an answer. Even the limited isolationism that many people are calling for to bring jobs back to this country. It would start a trade war that we would lose.

Ignoring the debt because China needs our consumers and will therefore keep buying our debt is not an answer. Not only is it morally reprehensible but if China actually moves politically where we would like them to go this gravy train is over.

Hoping that somewhere in the US some inventor is coming up with the next 'big thing' that will take the world by storm and not only fix our trade deficit problem but also expand our economy thus reducing the % of GDP that servicing the debt currently consumes is not an answer. It is wishful thinking.

Withdrawing from the world militarily (as much as I personally wish we coud)and reducing that portion of our budget to minimal levels is not an answer. Not only would it create massive amounts of unemployment but might very well precipitate another world war on an unimaginable scale. For a small perspective on this I look to what will happen in Iraq when we withdraw. Iran already has too much influence there and Saudi Arabia is only staying relatively out of it because we are there. The Kurds have not given up their quest for a country and Turkey will not allow that to happen. That region may explode after we are gone. Stability there was more likely with another Saddam-type leader rather than Democracy.

The answer? I don't know that there is any answer beyond reducing our standard of living (ie government handouts) to a sustainable level, one we can afford and slowly trying to raise the SoLs of the countries who are our labor competitors in order to raise the costs of labor to levels we can compete with. The end result of that will not be a return to our high standard of living but a levelling of SoLs around the world. But that process will take generations.

The argument about some debt being a good thing is valid only if that debt is incurred to make real investment that has a decent RoR. Giving money to the states so that they can live beyond their constitutionally mandated means doesn't qualify. It is the difference between buying a house in most times and buying new clothes. One is investment, the other just consumerism.

Sustainability is key. The quickest fix from a national security standpoint is to let the generations who incurred this debt pay it back through a 'death tax' while at the same time addressing the current deficit so we aren't adding to the problem. Nobody likes that but nobody has any better ideas.

And the debt/deficit has been something I've posted about for years. It is not sudden and aimed at the current leadership in DC.

I understand perfectly what the word means. I use it because it is convenient short hand for me on the topic of what I think our nation should be doing. Similar to how lots and lots of people call themselves conservatives but not all of them subscribe to Glen Beck. Clearer?

In short, I believe if we can do it at home, we should, and that we take care of our own first.



Oh, I do mean I want all the military bases shut down. I could give a shit of the world goes tits up. This is more from a bitterness angle on my part, but honestly what has it bought us?

Our presence in the world has become a handy double edged sword where the rest of the world expects us to "do something" even while they talk shit about us doing exactly that. Our meddling in a single country alone has bought billions and billions of "reconstruction" so that we could take out a man we propped up....not even going into how it was done.

So yeah, I do want the military brought home. I want them working on our infrastructure, not Iraq's. Not Afganistan.

Will it ever happen? No. But I certainly wish it would. Let the world take care of itself for a change. We're not Batman and this isn't Gotham city. Let some of the other people step the fuck up.




I'm the first person that will tell you I dont understand these things, which is probably why I struggle with them the way I do. What I know is my own life and some very basic rules I live by:

1) You take care of you and yours first. THEN help others when you can.
2) You don't take your rent money to the casino. Pay your bills first, save some, THEN decide what to do with the excess.
3) If you can do it yourself, do. I'm dabbling in gardening, for example. Just because I can't grow strawberries in my back yard doesn't mean I need to buy zucchini and tomatoes at the store. I can take care of the zucchini and tomatoes myself. Just buy the strawberries.

So to me, these translate directly to things that frustrate me. We borrow insane amounts of money, yet we're giving away huge chunks of change in foreign aid? I've already said how crazy I think that is. We can't pay our own fucking bills, yet we spend billions reconstructing Iraq? Insanity. The odds on that one ever paying off are probably worse than a roulette table.

So the idea that just because we can't grow X crop doesn't seem a valid argument to me for why that means we can't grow the crops we can and buy the ones we need.

Maybe this is all because I'm a moron about economics, but I fully admit that up front. I'm a UNIX systems administrator. I make the computers and the networks go and I play with art on the side. Math and accounting and all that other shit make my head hurt. But very basic laws I have about how to keep my home in order and the people I love cared for and tended to seem to be very basic things we could be doing on a national level and aren't. And it bugs me.

So by all means....call me a moron about the economy. As I said, I'll be the first one to tell you that you're right. But I know that a focus on local community and growth, as well as making sure we *remain* self sufficient in the areas that we can be...can't be a bad thing in the long run in my mind.

Venen wrote:


Unless those people happen to be Americans.....then they are thrown to the wolves. The double standard on this one drives me absolutely ape shit. The recent health care debate is just the most recent example of this.

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no Frib's barb was aimed at me.

He's got a point, krby. Fribur thinks people who were passionate about an issue in the past should still be so, regardless of which party is pushing it. He feels that way about everyone but himself, of course

Feel free to start a different thread about how I have become no longer passionate about whatever issue you wish, and I'll be happy to address it. Aside from my religious stances, very little about me has changed over the last few years.

I did want to comment on one earlier comment in the thread as well:



I don't see this as a bad thing, given that the disposable nature of our current incarnation has most americans destroying goods that are perfectly functional simply because they believe that they NEED to and no other reason. The average american doesn't even use the current computer they have to anywhere near the capacity it is capable of. We're (here on these boards) probably going to screw that curve a slight bit because we tend towards the slight percentage of people that do, both for work and play. But most people? Email, chat, and web browsing does not require the machines most people have and that is what they tend to use them for.

Additionally, a lot of goods almost seem designed to self destruct within X time BECAUSE of the disposable nature of our current usage.

So I would see the return to local goods having the initial pain point of, yes, higher prices, but coming along with a longer term goal of more stability in quality and less people buying the latest upgrade just because they think they have to while throwing away perfectly functional equipment that still meets their needs.

Maybe I'm on crack. But it makes sense to me.

It also would address some of the "china's cheap labor decided to use antifreeze in toothpaste" issues we've been seeing on what appears to be a growing trend. You get what you pay for and I, for one, and willing to pay more for quality and even more for local.

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I'm not even sure why I'm in this debate.

In summary, what you say about isolationism may sound (and feel) good, but it is completely impractical. I just don't think you are even beginning to comprehend how massively painful it would be. Look back to what happened with gas rationing in the 70s. Multiply that across the board 10x worse.

Anyhoo, no idea why I'm debating it - never gonna happen.

Best investment ever....

I'd love to pay off my portion of the debt right now, today, before it becomes more than I could ever pay in my own life time.

Report: Democratic districts received nearly twice the amount of stimulus funds as GOP districts
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 30417.html

Money is fake and debt doesn't matter....

.... to a government.

So we're in hoc to China, it's a good way to ensure red China never attacks, as A) we owe them a lot of money B) we're their best customer.

Having too much debt is an American philosophy.
Look at the dot com bubble burst, the housing market crash, we're all about instant gratification, and debt debt debt.

The 1950's are long gone, the frugal WW2 savers are dead or almost dead.

Welcome to the new America.

Wowsers!

CBO: $10 trillion jump in debt under Obama budget
http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/05/news/ec ... htm?hpt=T2

I have always been a proponent a sizable national debt, but we are starting to reach unstainable levels.

All this and we've really not even begun working to repair the country-wide failing infrastructure.....gonna be spensive!

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Makes you a little sick when you think about all the money we've spent blowing shit up when it could have been spent building bridges here

Bridges being held up with logs, cinderblocks.....

The power grid, communications grid...water systems, sewage systems..etc. Hell even our railway system is outdated.

Need to start spending some time working on crap within our own borders for a while.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Seems kind of socialist to me.

Not to mention social security and other entitlements.

exactly!

Most of the infrastructure we currently have was built up in the 30s and the 50s, during times with much much higher income tax brackets and through substantial use of eminent domain.

In other words, under conditions that today's Democrats would consider too socialist to seriously consider and which would drive Republicans to heart attacks, Libertarians to spontaneous combustion, and Teabaggers to open revolt (unless it involved cutting Medicare or Social Security - then spend as much as needed).

Good luck with that.

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Hope is the new black.

Ahh yes. And now we see the real problem with socializing GM, the banks, and spending almost a trillion on pork for the stimulus. The programs that actually need government funding will not get funded, and the real problems we have won't get addressed. The right is full of panic and skepticism about the role of government, and the left is embittered at the failure of their pols. Meanwhile, independents and moderates, the vast majority of this country, have to eat the shit sandwich that you served us.

Sweet!

GM and the banks are far from socialized, and the stimulus had many transportation projects in it, sir.

Just for the record, I have always been a big proponent of building infrastructure for public consumption (based on bids from private firms that are bonded and certified by 3rd parties).

The failure of Dem politics is they focus on entitlements far more than building something and giving incentives to the private sector.

The failure of Republicans is they mimic Dem policies while also allowing the wealth to fleece the middle class.

Next?