Venen: You're telling me I'm board-obsessed, then proceed to run through a laundry list of random bits of info about me, with time dates. Getting creepy

Orme: I'm still hopeful that a tape will be released. The only person doing racial profiling was Gates.

Pointing out a vacation you announced yourself: CREEPY bit of infoz!

Are you guys comparing post counts? Really?

I wish people posted more

Are you sure you want me to post more? This isn't a decision you should take lightly.

Sadly the best way this could end won't happen. Both sides should apologize. The cop should apologize for losing his cool under the verbal assault from the professor. And the professor should apologize for declaring the officer a racist on the news.

We can hope this is how it will end.

Where was it ever pointed out that the cop lost his cool? Just because he arrested him doesn't mean he lost his cool.

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Turns out, the neighbor who called it in didn't mention race at all initially, and when she was asked by the dispatcher, she said one might be Hispanic. She could only see their backs. At no point did she state that there were two black men breaking in, despite what a bunch of news stories have ran. Apparently there had been a rash of break-ins in the neighborhood, as well, which is why she made the call in the first place.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32169213/ns ... ethnicity/

So... yeah. Good call on the neighbor's part (and Gates should be thanking her for looking out for his property).

_________________

Gates looks more like a douchebag every damn day.

4th amendment rights. The cop realized the initial investigation was over and was leaving. He lost his cool under the verbal assault. He could have said "Have a nice day" and walked away.

It's a separate argument over the Bill of Rights like saying you are allowed to say "Fuck You" to a cop in the street under 1st amendment. So you could go into a long "intellectual" debate over it. So cops usually avoid actions where some smart-ass college professors are baiting them into a real world thought experiment to avoid making these "wrong" choices. Me personally... I couldn't see myself walking up to a cop and yelling "Fuck You" without something bad occurring in the real world. But we all know college isn't the real world.

So under some moral / "Bill of Rights" thought experiment the cop is wrong. He lost his cool when being excused of being something he is not and got himself in a pickle with a smart-ass professor with a bug up his ass. When it comes it "crossing the Ts and dotting the Is" letter of the law, the cop needed to observe the professor's 4th and 1st amendment rights.

In no way does this make the cop racist. Nor does it make the professors actions at the scene morally acceptable.

Sergeant Crowley, Mr. Gates, and President Obama walk into the White House bar for the ceremonial drink.

The bartender asks Sergeant Crowley what will you have to drink?

Feeling politically correct Sergeant Crowley orders a Black Russian.

Mr. Gates is pleased with Sergeant Crowleys selection and tips his feathered hat to him. Feeling inspired to ease relations Mr. Gates returns the gesture and orders a White Russian.

President Obama glares at both Sergeant Crowley and Mr. Gates which is the same expression seen when a reporter asks President Obama about his smoking, and says Black Russian, White Russian, I am not drinking with a bunch of commies!

What's troubling about that is the neighbor says that beyond the 911 call she NEVER talked to the police. But in the police report they said they made contact with her before Gates, and she said specifically to them...a black man (or might have been 2 black men, I forget).

So either she's lying, or the cops are.

And before someone jumps in with her being a 3rd party with no reason to lie, unfortunately she DOES have reason to lie...apparently she's been harassed since this incident, painted as a 'white woman' (though apparently she's not white lol) who cried wolf to the police cause she saw a black guy. She's upset with the harassment [per her statement put out by an attorney I guess she's hired?] so that would be motive to lie.

I'm not saying she's lying, just that normally a 3rd party who has NOTHING to do with it can be more believable because they'd have no reason to misrepresent. Too bad the officers didn't have tape recorders on them, I know a lot of police carry them just for the potential of shit like this.

It certainly would clear a lot of things up if there was a tape.

_________________

Or the cops spoke with someone at the scene that they thought was her.

_________________

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates. ... index.html

There's the link. And sure that's possible, but it would be bad procedure. I say that because they don't identify people by name in the report unless they get their name.

_________________

From the call:

The report mentions that the woman he spoke with said she was the caller, and that she was later identified as Lucia Whalen. Unfortunately, it doesn't say how he determined that she was Ms. Whalen. I think it's likely that he spoke with the woman that Ms. Whalen refers to in her call, and that he was later told the caller's name and assumed they were the same person. Fuck-up on his part, but not an unreasonable one.

_________________

I hate the term reverse-racism, because it makes no damn sense.

Racism is racism - whether it's a white person hating black, or black hating white, or whatever mixture of race you want to throw in it.

A black person who hates white people because he assumes white people are racist isn't a reverse-racist, he's racist. Period.

Same goes for anything else. Wouldn't reverse-racism be someone who loves everyone of a different race?

_________________

Sorry, I was being facetious. I agree wholeheartedly with you: no such thing as reverse-racism. It's all just racism.

_________________

http://www.slate.com/id/2223673/



His entire article pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter and why the cop was wrong on all counts and why I still don't believe it would have happened with a rich white guy (as Tarot says, "so sorry to have disturbed you, sir!").

_________________

The verbal assult wouldn't have come from anyone but a angry racist professor.

The cop lost his cool and should apologize.
The professor should apologize for being so immoral in his actions after the incident.

Ain't nothin to it, Gangsta rap made him do it.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/29/massac ... index.html

Wow, just...holy fucking shit.



And he didn't just mass mail it to a closed group of friends, he sent it to the newspaper.

_________________

lol holy hell and here this was about to blow over.

What a dumbass.

I kept coming back to "there's no way anyone in their right mind would write that," and now I wonder if the guy is either seriously having mental health issues, or is trying to fake mental health issues. Because that shit is crazy.

_________________

I was thinking the same thing, but I'm leaning towards 'drunk'.

_________________

Sweet mayonnaise of irony on the sandwich of shit.

See what happens when you don't lock your work computer?!

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/07/30 ... ey-e-mail/

Cop is apologizing, says he's not racist and is using the 'some of my best friends are _____________' defense.

Seriously though...banana eating jungle monkey, where the fuck do people get such things?! He's claiming it's not racist that his words merely catagorized the behavior. Now, there's a lot of words I might use to catagorize someone's bad behavior, and if I were motivated to reach into the animal kingdom for reference...I'm going to go with what I know; dogs, cats, parrots...maybe barnyard animals.

Banana eating jungle monkey? No. Even if you use the metaphor of a monkey for someone's behavior (non-racially)...I don't see where you get 'banana eating jungle' part.

It's obviously racist and the backpedaling is such horseshit. Ah see, I can reach into the animal kingdom for descriptors.

Hay eating horse puckey!

_________________

"I'm taking it back!"

Would that make him a "Get off my porch monkey?"

(*prepares to burn in hell*)

_________________
Hope is the new black.

Of course, he'd have said the exact same thing about a rich white guy too, right?

Sarcasm mine.

_________________

Because no one ever insults white people, right Rugen?

Seriously, it's really sad to see so many of you guys buckling so easy under the smallest weight of any possible racism. Sure, the "monkey" comments were retarded (What a stupid cop, BTW) but it's not even relevant to the issue and this entire thread has been filled with white folk gingerly stepping along, quivering in their little apologetic manner, too afraid to just say, "Hey, this professor guy is a dickhead."

It's not even a racial issue, it's more of a class issue than anything. It's not, "Hey, this is what happens when the cops come and you're black." it's more, "Hey, this is what happens when you're rich/affluent/whatever and some peon cop messes with you. You get the entire nation and the fucking *President of the United States* all over their ass."

Not saying that's what always happens (I'm not going to be as sweeping in my generalizations as the timid white apologists in this thread.) but that's sure what it's saying to "normal" folk - black and white - who experience all sorts of much worse treatment and such all over the nation and no one gives a shit.

How naive you are is really astounding, Bovinity. It's cute in kids, just outright foolishness in an adult.

There's a reason why minorities don't trust the motivation of cops when they start acting outside the boundaries of the law (which this one did) and it is not just "adolescent" anti-authority stuff. Most of us have a very good reason to understand that they do not have our best interests at heart...that we're not part of the body of people they view the words "protect and serve" as covering. Hell, from my own camp, I don't even have to go back very far in the news to make that point...the raid in Dallas/Ft. Worth that put a guy in a coma comes immediately to mind. Where was a SINGLE officer stepping forward to say that what happened that day was wrong or trying to stop it while it took place? *crickets* And gay people have it a lot easier than the black or hispanic community...we're not IMMEDIATELY targets until something "gives" us away.

The cop's arrest was completely against the law:



Combined with his false statements in the police report...there's a reason why this guy is getting the scrutiny he is.

Was Gates being a jackass? Sure. But he was in his own home and has every right to do so. And as Tarot has already outlined, Gates was arrested for "contempt of cop"...something I still don't believe would have happened to a rich white guy. They'd have been all "so sorry to have disturbed you, sir. glad to see everything is ok. sorry for the misunderstanding."

And yes, the other cop's comments are COMPLETELY valid to the discussion at hand.

If I have a cop asking me to do something I know he has no right to do and I deny him, how do I know that he's "a good guy" or "someone that thinks I'm a porch monkey"? I don't. All I have is the law. Which is precisely why I do not "just do whatever a cop tells me to do". I know my rights and I know the law, and they can go fuck themselves if they try to take one step over that line when I don't want them to.

The cop was completely and utterly in the wrong. Obama shouldn't have commented on it, but he summed it up perfectly.

_________________

I want to know where the interview with the neighbor lady is.

_________________

_____
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
_____
VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

What's foolish is walking around taking every cry of "racism!" at face value and being so timid and afraid that you just nod and agree.

There's racism in this nation, yes. ON BOTH SIDES. (I know, I'm not supposed to say that! Oh no!) Was this an example of it? No. Quit trying to take the high ground and show how sympathetic and "in touch" you are with racial issues. Because this event doesn't demonstrate any of that.

We've all had run ins with cops. I've been pulled over for bullshit/no reason. I've been pulled over to their cars and thrown on the hood, frisked and threatened just because I was out walking around late. I've been threatened with revocation of my license because my tires made a squeaking sound in a parking lot.

If I were black I could tell you, "Racism!" and you'd gasp in horror and comfort me and tell your friends and try to get it on the news. But I'm white! Shit! How do you explain it?!?! But if I were black I could call it profiling and racism and *EVERYONE WOULD AGREE* with me because people like you are so trained to just believe its true.

This isn't a racial issue, and people need to start to learn how to say, "No." to things like this or else we'll never move forward. They'll keep crying wolf and you'll keep nodding your head and agreeing and the racial divide that does exist will never narrow.

The reason is that Gates is an affluent man in a high-end neighborhood with friends in high places. THAT is the reason this is getting so much attention and it's sad that people like you are actually thinking that it's somehow a unique occurrence.

Oh, trust me, Bovinity. I hardly think it is a unique occurrence for a cop to target a minority for being "uppity".

_________________

So the cop 'targetted' Gates? How so? Did he ask the women to call 911 about a couple of suspicious people trying to shove their way through a door?

Non-white people are targetted every day for little better reason than that they are walking or driving while not Caucasian, instances that can actually be substantiated. Do we hear about those cases? Rarely. The only reason this one is public knowledge is because of Gates' standing.

Was Gates' arrest wrong? Yes, but there is absolutely no reason to think that it was due to race rather than Crowley making a stupid decision. It's just as pathetic to jump to race as the reason for something happening as it is to assume race isn't a factor despite evidence to the contrary.

He had the ID he needed. He should have walked away. Where most people are going to differ is the "why" he didn't. I think had Gates been a rich white guy, he would have swallowed down the attitude from him and walked away like he should have. Instead, he chose to deliberately break federal law and violate a man's home to arrest him, something he knows he's not allowed to do. Given what we know of this cop historically, what would make him act this out of character? A mouthy guy? Cops are trained to deal with mouthy guys. So it was something about THIS mouthy guy that made him throw the law aside and arrest him anyway. I know what I think that something else was.

Again, Gates was being a jackass. He had the right to do it. You don't have to like Gates to know and recognize that fact.

Even before I started studying my rights vs. cops, I knew they can't just enter my home whenever they want. A "celebrated" cop like this guy certainly knew that fact. He did it anyway. Why?

You can justify it how you wish. I know what I see there. Contempt of cop. Arrested for being uppity.

_________________

jackbooted gubmint thugs!

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

You know, I think you have a general bias against police, Rugen. I get the impression that you'd blame the cop no matter what, unlike, for instance, Tarot. Tarot has a bias for police, and understandably so, but clearly makes a decision based on facts and not on an intrinsic like or dislike for the police. You, on the other hand, argue so vehemently against the police that you pretty much make it easy to dismiss your opinion.

Not saying this as a means of arguing against what you're saying, I'm just pointing it out. There's been a number of times now that I've wanted to respond to something you've said, but ultimately chose not to because I felt it wouldn't matter: it appears as if nothing anyone could ever say would ever affect your opinion of police in any way.

_________________

See, it's stuff like this: you seem aware of the facts of the matter, yet you insist on saying things like this that aren't accurate. You know, just as well as the rest of us, that a break-in was reported. You know that the front door was clearly forced open. You know that the police were called. At what point do you think the officer was wrong for entering a home that met all the previous statements? I don't get that.

_________________

Watch the entire video I linked. The law does not operate in the way you think it does.

_________________

I've watched it. I don't recall reading or hearing anywhere else that Gates told the officer that he couldn't come into the house, nor did I read or hear that the officer forced his way past Gates into the house.

My key issue with most of the situation is simply this: do you or do you not want the officer to investigate potential burglaries or break-ins? If, for instance, an ex breaks into your home to "retrieve his belongings" and a neighbor calls the police, at what point do you want them to stop investigating and just leave? If they ask him if he is the rightful resident through the clearly forced-open front door, and he responds with "yes," are you comfortable with them leaving at that point?

I ask, because I would not be. I would want them to ensure that whomever is in my home belongs there. I want them to ask for ID. I want them to make sure there's no one else in the house with me with a gun pointed at my head, so I want them to ask me to step outside. I look at this situation, and I ask myself "what would I want if I were in Gates' shoes," and I can't see a single thing that the officers did that does not meet the criteria for what I'd want to happen.

_________________

Rugen, you're just being one of those guys that hates anything cops do until it's your turn to need help...then you'll be crying that they didn't do enough and didn't do it fast enough.

He already did that.

And then he arrested Gates anyway.

_________________

You already said this on page 2, I believe. You may as well just stamp your foot and call me a doodyhead. It is about as effective.

It's ok to be wrong, Bovinity. Just learn from it rather than wallow in your ignorance.

_________________

See, this is another silly thing that betrays your bias. You're just attaching the "uppity" thing to it just because the guy was black.

White people get arrested/detained for giving cops a hard time too, or as you guys put it "Contempt of cop". But when it happens to a black guy you bust out the, "Hating on the "Uppity" Black Man" crap.

You're just pulling every little racism sound bite and buzz word out that you can. Lose the white guilt already.

Calm down sir.

I'm not the one working himself into apologist fits all over this thread.

But thanks for the concern.

_________________

Any time!

We weren't discussing the arrest itself, which I agree was inappropriate (though I'm not as sure it was illegal). You said:

That's what we're discussing. So, can you respond to what I said?

_________________

Yeah, that's funny too. Because the cop just came waltzing right into Gates' house for no reason.

The answer is that the officer (to my knowledge) was operating within the law up until he got the ID. The point of contention here isn't that he showed up or that he investigated the possible crime. The point of contention is that he arrested the known owner of the home for bogus charges just because of X reason (since bovinity seems to take great exception to what I personally believe those reasons were).

We're discussing the arrest. Not why the cop was there in the first place. Or at least, I am.

My anger over this issue is a cop trumping up charges and arresting a man in his own home "just because". There's the added disgust because I don't honestly believe it would have happened to a rich white dude, but it isn't the core of the problem for me. The cop was wrong, period, to arrest Gates. It would have been a non-issue if he'd just walked away after seeing the ID.

_________________

Btw, I will also note...I've not seen anything that says the door was actually damaged. Even the police report fails to mention it. The only reference to it is the caller saying it looked like the person wedged their shoulder against the door.

Without the damaged door (which I don't know if it was there or not), my opinion on the matter about the ID changes dramatically.

_________________

The issue I have, Rugen, is that you imply with statements like the one I quoted that the cop did absolutely nothing right. That from the moment he arrived the situation became entirely his fault and that Gates was acting in an appropriate and adult manner throughout.

Was the officer wrong for arresting Gates? Almost certainly. I say "almost" because we don't know how Gates was behaving. It would have to be a severe amount of belligerence for an officer to feel an arrest was warranted. (As an aside, I realize I sound ridiculous in contradicting a judge who says that arresting Gates on his own porch or lawn for being disorderly is illegal, but that's not true anymore than it's true that you can blast a stereo from your front porch as loudly as you want.) It would have been wiser for the officer to just leave at that point. He didn't, and here we are.

But is Gates completely blameless? Your statements imply that you believe that Gates did nothing wrong. Is that an accurate assumption about your view of the matter?

_________________

I think it would be more accurate to say that when he decided to wrongly arrest a man, everything he did in the event became questionable and worthy of looking at. Rather than guilt before he takes any action, I am saying that because his final choice was an illegal one, it makes every other choice he made suspect, after the fact.



Blameless is the wrong word to use here. Tarot's already covered this. Was Gates being a jackass? Sure. He's entitled to that right without being arrested in his own home. Legally, the cop has no leg to stand on.

_________________

The cop was leaving.

Gates followed the cop to his car, harassing him and insulting him.

The arrest didn't take place in his house. It took place outside on the street. The cop was willing to drop the matter until Gates acted like a douchebag and forced the cops hand.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

No, he followed him into his yard. The arrest took place there. Again, watch the video I linked. It doesn't matter how much of a douche he was being, he has a right to do so in his own home: which extends to his porch, his yard, and his property.

_________________

So I can stand in my yard and yell racial slurs at my neighbours?

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

At that point, you'd have started carrying on a conversation in public space because it crosses the boundaries of your property and has the intention of taunting a person off your property. If your neighbor was in your yard? Yes. You'd be quite free to say just about anything you wanted to them (I suspect death threats still circumvent this entire topic, but I'm fuzzy on that one and would need to look up a few details first).

_________________

So then if the police officer had stepped into the street and Gates continued to berate him from his yard, would the officer be then justified in arresting him?

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark