http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/harvar ... index.html

To say that I'm irritated with our president over this shit would be an understatement. By his own admission, he isn't aware of all the facts, and yet he concludes that the cops were in the wrong for arresting this guy.

I don't give a fuck who you are, if the police show up at your door for a legitimate reason (and responding to neighbors' calls about a potential burglary is absolutely legitimate), you act appropriately. You do not get combative. You do not get argumentative. You do whatever the fuck they tell you and if you don't like it, you can handle the matter at a more appropriate time. Getting bitchy with the cops because you busted down your own front door and they wanted to make sure you're who you say you are is fucking ridiculous. Playing the race card over it even moreso.

He wasn't arrested for the break-in, despite our president's idiotic assertion to the contrary. He was arrested for mouthing off to police. Anyone would be arrested for that, and this jerkoff thinking he was above the law because he's a Harvard professor is fucking stupid. They should have charged the asshole with disturbing the peace.

It seems pretty clear that this guy doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions. Getting pissed because the cops respond to a legitimate call is bullshit. If I had to break down my own front door, I'd be damned glad to know the cops would show up to make sure it's me and not a burglar, and you can bet your ass I'd treat them with the utmost respect, regardless of how heavily or thoroughly I was questioned.

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ok

I honestly don't give a shit, but this is a pretty high quality version of this song.

The the fuck are you talking about, Tyral? The guy is in his own house, and he doesn't have to step outside his home if he doesn't want to. The arrest was bullshit too-- "disorderly conduct in a public place?" This wasn't a public place at all-- the cop was just mad because he didn't get exactly what he wanted. And why are you pissed at Obama for this? What did he say that was wrong?

If a police officer asked me to step outside, I wouldn't either-- they need a warrant to arrest me in my home. There's no way I'd give that police officer a way to legally arrest me easier by stepping out of my home. You know very well that's exactly why the cop asked him to step outside.



This is the worst of your rant. I can't believe you think a cop should be able to arrest someone and take them to jail just because that person said something that hurt their feelings. That's just fucked up.

Or the cops are lying. They do that, you know. Despite your protestations that we should all just do whatever they say, whenever they say it and never question their authority.

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Until he provided identification, he was just a man suspected of breaking into a private residence rather than a resident or home owner. This would have been the case for almost anyone who had been reported to police as being a possible burglar in an affluent neighborhood.

Probably because he acknowledged he didn't have all the facts, that he was biased, and then preceded to pronounce the police department as in the wrong anyway.

But the police asked him to step outside his own home first, before asking for identification. Later, the cop even wrote in his report that he believed that the man was in the home lawfully.



That's not what he said, at least not in the article. He said he didn't have all the facts *concerning whether or not it was race related.* I don't need all the facts either, and I think it's wrong for the guy to have been arrested for disorderly conduct in a public place-- in his own home.

Fribur, you keep talking about "in his own home" but you're apparently missing the point that THEY DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS HIS HOME.

Asking him to step outside and just offer his identification is perfectly reasonable and I'd have been happy to do so. All you, "FIGHT THA AUTHORITAH" people just sound silly. Grow up. <3

We've had this argument sooooooo many times. I'm sure the vast majority of the people who read the OP could have written it for Tyral without ever having discussed it with him.

white people are pretty stupid

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I bring it up for a few reasons.

1) The cop says in his report that he believed that the professor was in the home lawfully. So your point doesn't make sense.

2) The reason for arrest doesn't make any sense in your argument. If they thought he was breaking and entering, then he would have been arrested for that. He wasn't, because by the time they arrested him, they KNEW it wasn't true (again verified by the police officer's report). They invented the reason for arrest, using a charge that obviously doesn't even apply, since it was not a public place.



Concerning the giving of identification, I think you have a point. Concerning being asked to step outside? No way. There's no benefit to doing that for you, and all the benefit in the world for the police officer. My answer will always be, "no thanks-- I'm comfortable talking to you like this. What would you like to know?"



Asking him to step outside and just offer his identification is perfectly reasonable and I'd have been happy to do so. All you, "FIGHT THA AUTHORITAH" people just sound silly. Grow up. <3

Benefit? It's not about benefit.

Do you refuse to exit your vehicle when a police officer pulls you over and asks you to step out?

Have you ever considered looking at things from the officer's view, who doesn't KNOW you're innocent?

It just seems like such a silly little principle thing to cling to. The police come to your house, someone reported a potential break in...sure, I'd just say, "Hi officer. Yes, officer. Everything's fine, officer. Sure, I'll step outside for a moment, officer. Thank you for checking, officer. Have a nice night."

That doesn't mean you're letting the cops push you around and omg it's 1984 and omgomg police state and omgomgomg they're taking over. It's just making their job easier, making your life easier, and helping everyone involved just get the whole situation resolved painlessly.

Shit, I step outside when the pizza delivery guy comes. I'm sure not gonna suddenly turn into a huge dickhead when the cops come.

Of couse I step out of the car, because it's not the same situation-- the officer can arrest you without a warrant whether or not you are in the car. Are you getting the difference yet? The cops can ask me questions just as easily outside my door with me inside the door as when I'm out on my front lawn. The only part of their job that becomes harder that way is their ability to lawfully arrest me. Why would I make THAT easier?

Not being willing to step out of my home doesn't make me a "huge dickhead."

Yes, and I can tell you why the officer himself said he knew it was the owner of the home. If you stopped and thought about it for 2 seconds, so would you.

Burglars don't tend to answer the door on the homes they are robbing.

The entire thing is bullshit on the cops side and once they realized they were in a spot they couldn't back down from, called on their bullshit, it ended up with trumped up charges. If you honestly believe this exact same scenario would have happened at a wealthy white man's home? You're deluding yourself.

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I was disappointed that the President weighed in on it as much as he did. Now the headlines are black guy takes black guy's side rather than WE NEED TO FUCKING REFORM HEALTHCARE.

The truth is all the people pontificating on the matter are taking their default position because no one has all the facts. How ridiculous was professor Gates? I can allow for some level of anger and lipping off in a situation like that, but how far did Gates take it? We need video of the incident to say for sure. On the flip side, what was the attitude of the cops? How did they handle Gates and the situation. Were they rude? What exactly did they do, if anything to give the impression the situation was about race. Etc, etc.

The fact the Obama acknowledged we don't have all the facts, but went ahead and took sides anyway was dumb in my opinion.

Oh sorry for the double post, but one more snarky comment:

I delivered pizza for a few years while going to college. Most people did not step out of their homes. Does that mean most people are huge dickheads?

I would invite the cops in.

This guy was being a dick. Same situation with a white guy would be the same outcome.

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I totally agree with this.

Yeah, there's that too. Get back to work, Washington.

If everyone can cry, "This wouldn't have happened if the guy wasn't black!!" can I then cry, "The president wouldn't have commented on it if HE wasn't black!!!" ?

RACISM IN THE OVAL OFFICE, ZOMG

I don't understand why he just didn't say, "I don't have all the facts, so I can't comment." Simple enough.

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Have you ever watched an episode of Cops? How often does a obviously-guilty individual try to talk their way out of a situation instead of run? It happens all the time.

Cops don't get to make assumptions. They don't get to "know" who's right or wrong, or who might be the bad guy in a situation. When they start doing that shit, they generally end up dead. So in this situation, he may believe that he's speaking to the owner of the house, but he doesn't know he is and has to make every attempt to verify.

It's clear that Gates is lying about at least one facet of the situation: if he'd handed over both his driver's license and his Harvard ID, why would the cop need to call Harvard police? According to the police report (and yes, I'm assuming the cop is telling the truth, because I'm not an someone who assumes all cops are lying racists), the officer was only given the Harvard ID, and he had to call in to the Harvard police to verify the info Gates was giving him. That wouldn't have been necessary if Gates had actually given him a DL as he claims to have done.

Do any of you think that if Gates had been cooperative that any of this would have happened? Or are you taking the stance that the police officer is racist and therefore immediately to blame? That he was bound and determined to arrest Gates no matter what? Because that's what some of you sound like.

I think there's a prejudice in the mind of some minorities, who can't seem to act like a thinking adult when confronted by a police officer. Gates may have at least some excuse: he'd just returned from a long trip, had to break down his own front door, etc. But no amount of tiredness or frustration means you have a pass when it comes to dealing with police. You do what you're asked, when you're asked, or you may have to deal with the consequences of it. If you don't like your treatment, you handle it LATER. There are many avenues to file a complaint. Getting pissy with the officer right then isn't going to go well, and it's going to dilute the effect of any complaint you make later.

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It's funny because if this same situation happened with a white guy, and the cops just ran in and shot him with no questions asked, people would be like, "Oh well, cops just doin' their job."

Throw a black guy in there and OMG RACISM and the president has to weigh in and the cops a suddenly assholes and etc etc.

And Bovinity's last post is my cue to get the fuck out of this thread.

I haven't called it racism in any of my arguments. Both of you need to stop with the strawmen. My arguments about the stupidity of this cop don't need racism to make sense.

And of course... those arguments have been ignored.

I know, I know, evade the topic when actually called on it.

Nevermind that it's been made into a heavily racial issue and wouldn't have been in the news AT ALL if it wasn't a black man in the hot seat, nor would the powers that be in the area be apologizing and saying "It'll never happen again." Nor would Obama have commented on it at all.

And Fribur, sorry, but your arguements haven't been anything but, "I shouldn't have to do stuff I don't wanna when the Police ask." So they ask you to step outside for a minute when there's some suspicion (However small and visibly insignificant) of something wrong going on. Do you REALLY act like you've been violated in some way? FFS, just help them get the situation resolved without making it seem more suspicious by acting like a nutjob when they make insignificant requests.

Like I said, I'd be HAPPY if the police responded to something like this, even if they were a little overbearing at first. (Which is kind of part of the job, you know.)

If a cop asks you for identification on the street, do you ask why, or do you just hand him your driver's license?

Your answer here will say a lot about your attitude towards authority.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

It's a minor, simple request that could be helpful to the police in some way for something far more important. (I don't know what way, granted.)

So yes, I'd show him my ID. That's what it's there for, remember?

Forgot to be specific there...I'd just show it to him, but I'd be asking why in the process.

Cops ask people to step outside because #1 it is easier to see the area #2 less chance of who you are talking to grabbing something to use as a weapon #3 more open quarters in case the person IS actually a perpetrator and is not alone, (fewer corners to get ambushed from) #4 and most importantly, to get the person outside the door, out of harms way in case there IS someone inside the house pointing a gun at them or holding someone in the house hostage.

Not because it is "easier" to arrest them if they are outside like Fribur says. I guarantee you that cop is thinking about 1 thing. Survival in any situation and they are trained on how to reduce the odds against them in many every day situations.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

The official police report, if true, don't paint Gates in a very good light. Should he have still been arrested? I don't claim to know police procedures very well, but perhaps not. Still, this is a VERY detailed police report and the nature of the confrontation, outside the home and with plenty of witnesses (both the public and campus police) make me think that the officer is telling the truth. You should read the reports.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... ates2.html





And the report filed by his partner.



It will be interesting to see if any of the people outside come forward to corroborate the report. In other news, it looks like Obama is backing off his statement and that the police unions are backing up the officer.

If it had been a white guy they'd have simply said 'Oh sorry to disturb you sir'. And that's why it would be a non-story.

He was arrested for 'contempt of cop'.

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And on the topic of the cops' reactions...remember the job they're in. You might say, "Well they should have just known he was innocent." or something, but bad things happen on that job.

Look up Wayne Koester down here in Florida, one of the more recent occurances. He and two other deputies responded to a domestic violence call. They get there, the husband isn't there, they find the wife. Out of nowhere the husband bursts out of the woods with a shotgun and kills one of the cops, wounds the other two, then escapes on a motorcycle.

Why did the dude do that? Who the fuck knows. Who knows why people do dumb shit. You just don't know when you're an officer responding to shit like this. ALL the cops knew was that they got a report of a crime in progress, someone breaking into a home. When they arrive, they don't need some guy acting like an asshat and making their jobs - from their perspective - more dangerous by making the situation harder to get under control.

Bullshit. Bulllllshit. White people get put in handcuffs and dragged off too when they give the cops a lot of shit and refuse to comply to requests.

I just read the police report, seems pretty cut and dry with witnesses to corroborate the officers testimony.

Not even news worthy.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
_____
VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Yeah, he's not crazy at all. Look at the idiot screaming...

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Boston Herald profile on Crowley:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/region ... ormat=text

Interesting - he was the officer who tried to resuscitate Reggie Lewis when he had a heart attack 16 years ago.

The thing that gets me is the part in the police report where Crowley states he was preparing to leave and that Gates followed him, continuing to scream.

Specifically:

- When asked to step outside, replying "no I will not".
- Telling the officer he had no idea who he was messing with and that he had not heard the last of it.
- Saying "I'll speak with your mama outside"

Quite frankly, all three seem like arrestable offenses to me. Whether charged or not, those were very stupid things to do. There's no reason for that kind of behavior. The latter can both be taken as threats, and since the issue was resolved and the officer said he was leaving. I mean, if the report is accurate, Gates could have been arrested immediately for failing to identify himself on the spot. The officer was being a bit generous in even letting him use the telephone before getting his identification. The language specifically states "As he did so, I radioed channel 1 that I was off in the residence with someone who appeared to be a resident but very uncooperative". If you're there investigating a burglary (with cause, mind you), and the person in the house failed to give ID or comply with your request to come outside, I think it's VERY generous that he gave Gates the benefit of the doubt and didn't arrest him on the spot for failing to comply with his request.

Failing to provide identification to an officer should not be an arrestable offense, I'm sorry.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Failing to comply with requests and failing to identify yourself when you're on the scene of a supposed crime in progress that the police are responding to?

Yeah, you're pretty much just asking to get thrown in cuffs and for very good reason.

So if you won't supply ID to prove it's your house and that you're not breaking and entering, and won't come outside, what is the cop suppose to do? Leave?

I'm referring to a blanket statement. If a cop asks me for identification on the street, and I ask why, and he doesn't have a good reason, I'm going to say no. Should I be arrested then?

If a cop is referring to a call and is doing an investigation, I will comply. However, just because I refuse to show identification doesn't mean I should be arrested. =P

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

But I mean.. he was asked for ID, refused. He was asked to step outside.. refused. What is the cop supposed to do? How is the cop supposed to ascertain if Gates really was the resident? He called in the campus police. He let Gates take his time in providing ID and then when he did, the cop was actually in the process of leaving when Gates followed him and would not stop screaming at the officer when he was asked no less than 3 times to stop.

None of those things seem like the actions of someone who hates black people and was profiling. The pic that Khan posted has a black police officer in the foreground, for crying out loud. Why would Gates wait until a huge variety of witnesses was there before arresting him, if he was intent on arresting him simply because he's black?

"Why would Gates wait" should read "Why would Crowley wait"

God, wow. heh.

Crowley teaches a class on racial profiling at the police academt and has done so for 5 years.

Cop who arrested black scholar is profiling expert
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

Gates did show his ID -- the wrong one, granted, but he did show his ID.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Hahah, way to go, Obama.

If this were WoW, I'd spam everyone with an ASCII Failtrain or Facepalm right about now.

what's stopping you? ;x

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I'd rather this board didn't turn into the WoW boards.

Would you mind not posting shit like this anymore, then?

I mean, Jesus man, you epitomize the WoW boards, even if it's supposed to be tongue in cheek.

The guy with the Chris Farley animation as his avatar is calling me the epitome of the WoW boards and asking me to post in a nicer manner.

Obviously another classic case of a racist cop.


sarcasm

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There, just for you Joxy-poo.

There were apparently almost a dozen break-ins in that neighborhood in the 1st quarter of 2009, with an attempted break-in at Gates own home, to boot.

I can't help but think that Crowley was wrong to arrest him, but that Gates was also wrong to act like he did instead of just showing some goddamned gratitude to the cop for trying to do his job and just dropping it.

Gates should move on. The cop is obviously not racist.

In most places and in most instances, failing to provide an officer your government-issued identification upon request is a crime. So while you may disagree with it in theory, in practice you certainly can be arrested for it.

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It's not in Massachusets, Tyral.

See: Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._ ... _of_Nevada

and

Stop and Identify statutes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

24 states have stop and identify laws but MA is not one of them, and there is no federal law, though it seems like it's a bit unclear.

Huh. Interesting, that. I guess I'm just used to living in states where it IS a requirement.

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Sorry for the double post, but just wanted to also point out that, while a state may not have a stop-and-identify law, that doesn't mean individual counties, cities or towns don't. So if you don't see your state listed on there, don't assume you can tell a cop "no" if they ask for your ID.

It's never a bad idea to cooperate with police if you've done nothing wrong. It's often a bad idea to be uncooperative or argumentative, even if you've done nothing wrong.

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Nope. You can be arrested for failure to comply with a lawful order. You can be arrested for interfering with an investigation (specific law varies state to state, but there's ALWAYS a law for this).

You *cannot* legally be arrested for refusing to comply with a request. There are 'papers please' states, where if the police demand to see identification, you are required to comply; it is a lawful order. There are many other states where you are NOT required to comply. You can tell them to go blow.

There might be a rapist loose in the area. The police knock on my door to let me know. They have no SPECIFIC knowledge or belief that the rapist is inside my residence. And I have contempt of the police. I'm rude. I'm snotty. I scream at them for knocking on my door. I don't want to take their shitty flyer. No, there's no one here, now get the fuck off my property.

I have every single right to do just that.

They can't come in unless they have cause and that's in the legal sense. They have to have seen the rapist come into my house, or have damn good cause to believe it's the ONLY WAY the rapist could have gone during pursuit [they turn the corner, they heard the door bang and see it ajar, in hot pursuit]. They could also believe someone is in immediate danger, again if they have cause...like someone screaming 'HELP HELP!!!'

Otherwise they need to go get a fucking warrant before entering.

Gates was arrested for contempt of cop. How do I know? How am I sure? And I mean SURE?

Because of what he was arrested for. It boils down to 'he was being noisy and animated'. Contempt of cop. Of course the charges were dropped. There's no way they'd ever stand.

I also find it interesting that the police officer involved publically stated an *absolute* refusal to apologize almost immediately. I'd have little issue if he had stated, 'I'm not apologizing I didn't do anything wrong', but an absolute refusal in which he essentially says I will never apologize I don't care what happens, no apology will come from me as an individual or me as a police officer...that's problematic.

I know I'm not fucking infallible. And even when I'm SURE I'm right...there's a possibility that I could be wrong. I might say something akin to I'm not going to apologize just because there's pressure to and I don't believe I did anything wrong, I've gone over it in my head many times since then and I simply do not see how I could have handled it better given all the circumstances at least leaves room for the possibility that I fucked up and could have handled it better. Or made a very human mistake.

Or allowed emotion to influence my decisions.

Anyway, it's CLEARLY contempt of cop. There are those who will argue that handling it in such ways is necessary; otherwise they can't do their job blah blah blah. Me, I think operating within the scope of the law is extremely important, especially for those who have so much power within it. It's a bullshit thing, and unfortunately it's probably so commonplace that he didn't think twice about doing it, even though this time the person he did it to wasn't exactly powerless.

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Wow, for the first time ever...tarot and I agree on something to do with the topic of cops.

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Well, shit, that settles it then. The guy's obviously not racist!!

I can only assume that was the point of this little gem of an informative tidbit.