I believe that's what I said, almost word for word there =) Perhaps a little more clarity on the second point - I'm saying it worked for me in several different cities, your results may vary. The lackings of those systems though don't automatically imply there aren't a shitload of whiners out there though without a very good excuse to not ride. Again, convenience is largely the name of the game.

Well, for one I doubt the system will be more punitive than the one in the EU's plan. And by 'fine' I mean the cost of the credits they need to purchase on the market. They are by no means going to squash non-compliant industries in a recession, and are developing the rules while in said recession, so I think my assessment is fair.

For two, I doubt the carbon credit industry will be without a lobby to ensure their profitability is not put at stake. When you regulate their existence, you turn their product into a government-backed business. They may say the credits will be dialed back, but that is just like so much they say. If it's an international market, it'd be at the stake of setting a limit only on US industry. Other nations (China, India, Mexico, etc.) can do as they please. As we can't tell other nations what to do, and cannot tell them who to sell to.

Like Kyoto, it only works if everyone plays and nobody cheats.

Have we tried setting an example in leadership by benefitting the environment as a whole at the sacrifice of our own industry? I'd say it might be hard to know if it works without trying something like that, especially coming from one of the larger polluting singular nations as opposed to some of the nations in Europe.

True, you won't have the net effect desired unless everyone does it. But our refusal to do it because "others won't" is like a group of 5-year-olds squabbling over why they can't stop slapping each other in the face. "He won't stop!". It's an endless cycle, and China/India will simply say the same of us.

Yeah, China's going to follow our example when this law will only help the Chinese economy when more American companies move carbon producing aspects of their companies offshore. That'll happen.

At the very least it adds some international pressure and further alienates the Chinese with the rest of the world. They may not do it, very much granted. But the fact that we won't do it until someone else does it looks childish. Setting the example and doing the right thing has more to do with standing on principle than it does with the net result of our actions.

For me at least, I have an easier time buying that than the sky falling from Cap and Trade. I can't speak for you, Xanth

It's an accepted fact that Chinese autoworkers earn far less than their US colleagues. And near as I can tell US based companies don't import fees for their products manufactured overseas. So what would stop the Big 3 from moving all manufacturing to China while maintaining headquarters here. While ridding themselves of UAW and EPA concerns. And in turn receiving friendlier treatment from a government which happens to be communist /boggle.

Update:

Obama's drive for climate change bill delayed
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 98_pf.html

Holy smokes. Crash and burn!

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15 ... 4040.shtml

Hmm, and if I remember correctly at the beginning of this thread I was referencing sources that said the cost per household would be $2,000 - $3,000 per year and you guys attacked me. Now that the ADMINISTRATION is saying that it could be $1,761 per year do you want to believe me now?

I ask that, but I know that you all will just call me a racist, Limbaugh/Palin lover that hates anything the administration wants to do.

Krby is pro strawman builder.

Anyway, if we read the entire article, we also find:

It doesn't really matter, because I don't see it happening.

ROFL

Says the one who does not live in a place that gets forty below winters.

_________________
Jake Rivers - Senex Legio
Get off my Lawn alliance

No, it probably won't. Neither will health care reform, the way things are going.

The point is though, it's easy to look at the red part of a cost analysis and ignore the black. It's easy to say, "An oil change costs $15, that'll cost like $1.5 billion a month for americans families!" while ignoring the $3000 it'll cost to fix your poor engine when it blows up or whatever.

HOLY FUCK! SIN TAX ON SODA. WE FUCKED BROS.

where do oil changes only cost $15? Please tell me.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/aos/1379215991.html

AZ apparently ;>

our last oil change was 14.95 at the ford dealership - Cincinnati Ohio. A few days later they dropped the price to 12.95

I expect to pay 19.95 - but if I look around, I can usually find one for 14.95

don't ever go to jiffy lube - My wife went there once and it was like 40 bucks lol.. I wasn't with her and she had never gotten an oil change... heh.

_________________

Yeah.. my oil changes cost $50.

_________________
Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Free for me

My oil changes are around $180.

even at the dealership, oil changes are $30 and it takes forever. I am perfectly willing to pay $35-40 for a no-waiting oil change.

_________________

World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Unless I do not have the time I prefer to do my own oil change, its like getting a free case of beer.

Problem is though all those 1 gallon jugs of used oil I have stacked up in my garage!

_________________
Jake Rivers - Senex Legio
Get off my Lawn alliance

Surely there's a pond or river or something near you to deposit that icky stuff.

There is no reason to keep oil around the house. The best thing to do with it is to dump it down the kitchen drain. Here is an interesting fact about oil: It won't mix with water.

That way you don't have to worry about oil contaminating the water supply - since they don't actually ever mix.

That's fucking science - look it up.

_________________

How's my deadpan?

_________________

Too late...


Read more: here

That's the kind of "common sense" that gets thrown around a lot, sadly!