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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:40 PM 
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Quote:
- Stimulus
- GM takeover
- Unlimited money to Freddie/Fannie
- Horrible health care bill


Jox, I'm curious about your thoughts on the actual numbers of some of these events. I was watching Maddow's Jan 12th broadcast about Obama's first year (I'll link it below but since it is long, I'll summarize) and she ended up leading me down the road of looking up other details.

Like the federal reserve making a profit of 52 billion as a result of their bank bailout actions:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/12/news/ec ... /index.htm

The fact that the job losses show a distinct turn around since Obama took office:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archiv ... 021288.php

Or the fact that even the conservatives are saying that the stimulus was needed and worked?

Quote:
For all the unpopularity of the bailouts and the scare the tea partiers actions of the Fed and the Treasury Department, for all of the demagoguing and freaking out about the economy, the numbers look OK. They at least seem to have gotten a lot better under Mr. Obama. He seems to have turned things around.

And in terms of legislative accomplishments, whether or not you like the policies this president has pursued, consider what moved from his to-do list to the “done” list in this president‘s first year. Not his first term, but just his first year. Less than a month after taking office, President Obama got a massive $787 billion stimulus package passed.

Every mainstream economist in America said the stimulus worked to prevent a much deeper downturn. Even the right wing think-tank, the American Enterprise Institute, last week, put out a report saying the stimulus worked. Even Mark Zandi, one of John McCain‘s economic advisers during the campaign against Obama, has been willing to admit publicly that the stimulus worked.


I know you have issues with the stimulus in particular, so I'm curious about your take on the base numbers and the fact that people (even those on the other side of the aisle) seem to be willing to admit that it actually worked.

I have to agree with her assessment. I've yet to hear a single financial individual when talking about our economy, right/left/undeclared, that HASN'T said massive spending in the face of a recession is expected. They also all seem to agree that action isn't the actual problem....the real problem we need to address is the long standing and accepted overspending/underfunding we have on various programs such as Medicaid.

This has been one of the reasons why I've not been terribly vocal about the stimulus and banking situation. I know I don't understand it. A lot of what has been done seems entirely counter-intuitive to me. So I took more of a wait and see approach. Now? People seem to be agreeing that it has worked.

Here's the full clip. A look at Obama's first year in office by Maddow.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:00 AM 
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Sure. I may need to respond in two parts. Let me first tell you some reasons why I think it should not have been passed in the form it was.

In direct response to some of your points:

- Why are you citing the success of bailout funding? That was not part of the stimulus. I'm not debating the wisdom of TARP or son of TARP here. I was and am a believer in the necessary evil of bailing out the banks. GM, not so much.
- Your data showing job losses saddens me. Most estimates of job losses by the administration and other outlets have always been revised for the worst after the fact, and December was significantly worse than was expected. Furthermore, you and your source ignore two important facts. One: The estimates of job losses and a reverse in the pace of job losses WITHOUT a stimulus showed that experts expected it to slow organically, and 2) that the history of recessions in our country show that most stimulus packages are enacted when a recovery has already started. I'm not sure how your source can claim that Obama's stimulus can take credit for this when the WH's own estimate said that unemployment with the stimulus would be no higher than 8%. Second, most experts, even ones that support the stimulus, expected that job creation on the short term would affect longterm growth. What has happened is that job creation in the short term has been pretty flat, and worse than expected, and I expect with our debt load job growth longterm will STILL be affected negatively.

Here's a graph from the CBO on the longterm affect of the stimulus:

Image

So my question to you is: If the WH said unemployment would not be worse than around 8%, and yet we're at 10+, AND we know the longterm effect of the stimulus is quite expensive... Then how the hell can you say the stimulus "worked"?

Here's the graph from the Obama WH:

Image

It shows unemployment WITHOUT the stimulus was projected to be LOWER than what it is right now WITH the stimulus. So we know it has failed in that regard. It has. It has not stopped unemployment like they told us it would. Their goal, not mine. Yet we know that spending that much money will profoundly impact our debt longterm. How is this "working"?



Measurables

Unemployment: The two real measurables that were communicated - the goals of the stimulus, were around creating jobs. We were told that unemployment would cap be in the 8% range, and here we are at 10%. If you add numbers to include underemployment, the number is pretty scary. For a trillion dollars, I expect more progress, sooner.

U.S. Job Losses in December Dim Hopes for Quick Upswing
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/09/busin ... 9jobs.html

Jobs created: Second, they established a bogus metric of "jobs created or saved". They've since moved away to a metric that's even more bogus and can include jobs that existed before and will exist after stimulus dollars fund a program.

Here's a depressing graph.

Image
(source: http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2 ... ment-news/)

The rate is not slowing. What is happening is that there are a significant amount of people who are giving up looking for jobs that were anything like what they had before and either going unemployed or taking worse / part-time jobs.

Furthermore, the AP and other outlets say that we should expect another year of high unemployment.
(source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100108/ap_ ... us_economy)

Here's another scary metric from that article: "The 85,000 lost jobs for the month is based on a government survey of employers. A separate government survey of households found a much darker picture — nearly 600,000 fewer people said they had jobs in December than in November.

.snip.

It was the second straight month the unemployment rate came in at 10 percent. The only reason it didn't rise was that 661,000 people stopped looking for jobs and left the work force. "

Rate of adoption: I read a story the other day that one of the programs they enacted, to stem foreclosures and work towards fixing the huge foreclosure problem, hadn't even been started. Why do we need a stimulus that reached into 10 years? Why didn't we have a smaller stimulus that does what they said it would do? Shock the economy, get jobs created, and cap it at 2-3 years so that we're not obligating ourselves for years to come.

Fraud, waste and tracking problems on recovery.gov: Who knows what the total amount of money we're being defrauded on, but it's in the billions of dollars - many billions of dollars. The amount of waste in this bill and the fact that Recovery.gov shows money being passed to districts that don't even exist in our country points to a vast and inefficient system to distribute money. Did you know that some local governments actually hired people specifically to help get and distribute stimulus funds? That seems wasteful, cumbersome and not something that is temporary.

There are so many examples of the problems with their tracking it's truly alarming. Here's one: http://newmexico.watchdog.org/2010/01/0 ... zip-codes/

Temporary, targeted and timely

Larry Summers wrote an op-ed 2 years ago and described the criteria for the stimulus to be temporary, targeted and timely.
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/pub ... mulus.html

It's not timely because it doesn't take affect for several years violated the timely criteria.

It's not targeted to people most in need - I don't see how adding funding for thousands of pet projects helps the guy who just lost his home in foreclosure or his job.

It's not temporary because it funded a host of longterm government programs, facilities and infrastructure and the impact on the deficit has been *huge*.

Thus, it violated the criteria of its own creators.


Biased towards government programs

Have you seen some of the charts that show government worker pay rates compared to the rising unemployment in the private sector? While the private sector has been shedding jobs and getting lean, pay raises are almost double if you're in a government job. Why? Isn't it grossly inefficient to to use taxpayer money to inflate the pay of existing employees?

There was a really wonderful graph that showed this disparity and I can't find it now.

In a similar vein to the health care bill - if we're supposed to be stimulating the economy, why are there so many special interest groups receiving money? Why are there so many pork projects for local congressmembers? Make a smaller bill that does what we need and is short-term enough for us to get the fuck out of when the economy is turned around.

Shovel-ready projects?

This is just a flat out lie. There are many, many projects that are simply not even off the ground yet.

---

Having said all that, I'm going to hit post before my browser crashed. Bottom line to me is that I think a stimulus should have been enacted. I think it should have been about a quarter of the size, that no pork should have been put in, and it should have met the 3 criteria that Obama's own economic advisers recommended.

I apologize for any typos, I'm pretty tired.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:37 AM 
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I don't have time to post anything long right now, but it appears to me that your argument about the alleged failure of the stimulus plan relies on the estimates of unemployment made by Obama's administration before the stimulus plan went into affect. You already point out that the estimates are wrong (he said we would be at x% unemployment with the stimulus, but it's higher), but you don't seem to be willing to point out that the estimate for what would happen without the stimulus could also have been wrong (he said we would be at x% unemployment without the stimulus, but actually it would have been more). I think many people are saying the stimulus works now because as bad as it got over the last few years, it seems clear at this point that it would have been even worse without it.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:44 AM 
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Fribur wrote:
I think many people are saying the stimulus works now because as bad as it got over the last few years, it seems clear at this point that it would have been even worse without it.


It COULD have been worse or it COULD have been better, that is up for argument and we will never know. Also the last numbers I heard that only 40% of the money has been released at this point, I also heard that out of that 40% more than 25% has gone into "administration" costs.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:14 AM 
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Firbur,

You can't ask if the stimulus "worked" and divorce it from the longterm effects it will impose on our economy. Did it do something? For 800 billion, I would hope so! Did we spend $100,000 to stimulate $25,000? Probably!

The stimulus had an effect, but I think it was similar to using a jackhammer to hang a picture on the wall. Sure, it got the nail in, kind of, and not as well as I was told, but now my fucking wall is destroyed. We also bought a jackhammer that fluffs my pillows, shampoos my carpet and does a whole lot of other shit that I didn't need. All I needed was to hang a picture.

Meanwhile, as I look at the cost of fixing the wall that I just destroyed, I have a plumbing problem in the bathroom and a leaky roof. Why did we spend so much money on such a localized problem when we already know we're going to have major issues with social security and other programs down the road?

Having said that, the only barometer for whether it "worked" is if it met the goals that were sold to the public. It didn't! You can't argue against that. You also can't argue against the data I posted.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:40 AM 
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Jox: Fribur actually commented on the primary thing in your post that I was going to reply to, so I'll just say thank you for taking the time to write it and jump in here on the follow up...


Quote:
You can't ask if the stimulus "worked" and divorce it from the longterm effects it will impose on our economy


And yet, almost every financial person I hear talk about this issue...seems to be doing just that. Stating that we should be less concerned about the stimulus because it was needed and more concerned with social security and medicare, examples of long standing overspending/underfunding that will cause our debt holders to lose faith in our countries ability to reign in the spending. That the outcome of that loss of faith, if it happens, is a lot worse than most people realize. Spending large amounts of money in the face of a recession is expected, but the overspend/underfund behavior is a lifestyle at this point and at some point the holders are going to ask themselves why they are just handing us money to artificially inflate our lifestyle when we just keep coming back asking for more and more and more. At some point they say no.

Quote:
Having said that, the only barometer for whether it "worked" is if it met the goals that were sold to the public. It didn't! You can't argue against that


But I can. You won't like my argument and I know that even as I make it. Like I said, I'm still digging into it...but my impression of the data I've read, even in the links you posted, is that we hit the brakes in time to avoid going off a cliff. There's still work to be done to get the car back on the road, to continue to the metaphor, but at least we have that option now rather than tumbling down.

It's been a year. I know you don't expect, any more than I do, for Obama and the Senate to snap their fingers and "make it all better". For me? Brakes are enough for the first year. Now let's get the car back on the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:37 PM 
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Quote:
Having said that, the only barometer for whether it "worked" is if it met the goals that were sold to the public. It didn't!


also, I wasn't entirely clear because it is past my "midnight" and I'm getting tired.

You're asking for it to have "worked" at the end of the year. I'm asking for it to be "working" one year later. The promise was to turn the economy around. I didn't expect us to be "back" in a single year, but I expected the downward spiral to be stopped. So I think we have different criteria to judge that original promise by... -ed vs. -ing. Hence why I can argue with your claim it hasn't met the promise.

GM, I won't argue on. I still dislike that decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:28 AM 
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Yippee! The Unions have hammered a deal where they are exempt from the "Cadillac tax" on their existing coverage...

Full story

Who do I have to bribe to get a sweetheart deal where I am not covered by this bill?


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:18 PM 
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I agree, this is more bullshit.

It would be one thing if there was a legitimate argument to exempt or help a particular group of people, but that isn't the case here. If bribery is necessary to get this plan passed, then it's time to scrap it and start fresh (from single payer imo).


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:50 PM 
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krby71 wrote:
Yippee! The Unions have hammered a deal where they are exempt from the "Cadillac tax" on their existing coverage...

Full story

Who do I have to bribe to get a sweetheart deal where I am not covered by this bill?


This is bullshit on so many levels it's amazing. I've been giving Obama the benefit of the doubt on a bunch of issues because this economy is no easy mess to navigate through, but this is a total bribe for the union vote and completely unfair to the rest of america. Not letting cameras in suddenly makes a lot of sense now.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:55 PM 
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So glad that Scott Brown has won the open Mass. seat. Now we will see if they will play games with the Senate vote


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:50 PM 
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Of course they will. That's what politics entails. Now what I'm curious about, is if you ever made a comment like that when Republicans controlled Congress...


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:11 AM 
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Frib, you say the same thing after every one of my posts. It was old 50 posts ago. Yes, I am partial to the things that I believe. Yes you and I do not agree on most all points.

You don't have to say "did you say the same thing when XXX happened?" To be honest I don't know if it did happen when the other party was is power. If it did happen when the Republicans controlled Congress why didn't you say anything? I am not a Republican anymore, you should know that.

Unless you have a specific example of something similar happening when the other party was in control, don't ask me your inane question.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:25 AM 
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so no then.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:28 PM 
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I sit here stunned thinking there is a real chance that the Dems could get absolutely no health care reform done - at all. If that happens, it will certainly be one of the most stunning political defeats of all time.

Whether you agree or disagree with the 2000 tax cuts, at least the Republicans managed to get consensus within their own party to pass their primary campaign promise.

This whole thing is mind boggling.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:33 AM 
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I don't find it all that stunning that they may not get healthcare reform passed. They (meaning Pelosi's group, Reid's group, and Obama's group) set themselves up for this when they chose to try and push through a completely one-party bill. I find it ironic and somewhat amusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:42 AM 
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Being one-party isn't the problem. The problem is that the one-party we're talking about here can't even agree on anything other than to fuck up every chance they got.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:48 AM 
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Man, I feel like using that quote Bzalthek. It pretty much says everything about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:37 PM 
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Ditto Bzal & Guurn.

Harry Reid almost single-handedly torpedoed this thing in an effort to get reelected. Ironically enough, it's failure is going to probably cement his pending defeat.

Fact is - if the Democrats had any real unity at all, this would have been passed. This is why Obama was talking shit back in the day- he figured "we have a super majority, we can't lose."


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:31 AM 
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I think both are correct: that Dems could have pushed this through if they'd been unified and that if it hadn't been one-party they wouldn't be scrambling because their party lost a single seat.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:49 AM 
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It would have passed if they (the Dems) weren't all so concerned with getting thier own "pork" into the bill for each of thier own lobbiest groups. How ironic after all the rhetoric about not allowing that to happen and having the parties work together during the presidential campaign. I know that's business as usual in Washington, but it's still dissapointing.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:48 PM 
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Skeptical Democrats not sold on Obama’s latest health care plan(Link)

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By Doug Thompson
Obama with docs in health care photo-op (Reuters)
President Barack Obama faces skepticism on his latest revised health care plan not only from Republicans but also from Democrats who have one eye on polls and the other on a tough re-election campaign in 2010.

Obama Wednesday called on Congress to put aside a year of partisanship and bitter divisions over his faltering health care “reform” program and pass the measure in a simple, up-or-down vote by the Easter recess at the end of March.

“At stake now if not just our ability to solve this problem, but our ability to solve any problem and I ask Congress to finish its work,” Obama said. “I look forward to singing this reform into law.”

Democrats aren’t so sure his latest ploy will work.

“I think he has succeeded in prying open a window of opportunity but it’s a very narrow window,” Democratic Virginia Congressman Gerry Donnolly told The Associated Press. “He and the leadership had better clamber through that narrow window while they can.”

Democratic Rep. Joe Courtney of Connecticut has his doubts too.

“It’s fragile,” Courtney said of the bill’s chances. “It’s getting close to the election.”

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is working to win over some of the 39 Democrats who voted against the reform bill the first time around in the House. She will need those votes.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:49 AM 
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Amusing video about Rahm Emanuel's douchebaggery.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... votes.html


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:27 PM 
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Quote:
"Rahm Emanuel is son of the devil's spawn, Rep. Eric Massa (D-NY) said. "He is an individual who would sell his mother to get a vote. He would strap his children to the front end of a steam locomotive."


I guess his mother is the devil's spawn, then, by that quote? Maybe selling her isn't such a bad thing then, right?! Must mean he's a good christian.

It's nice that you can find sources like this to shape your political views, Joxur. It really contributes to productive discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:31 PM 
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Because these boards are full of productive discussion...


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:05 PM 
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I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make, Bov. I just thought it was amusing for a Dem to talk about Rahm Emanuel's behavior like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:42 PM 
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I'm not sure why they wouldn't be critical of him. The Democrats, in terms of viewpoints, are easily the most diverse and split-up party out there. That's their biggest problem right now(it has been for years and and will likely continue to be). Meanwhile the Republicans in Congress are fairly single-minded, so it's easy to get them to band together and focus on getting things done. Never underestimate the ability of stupid people to band together to get stupid shit done.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:12 PM 
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From Roll Call
Quote:
Ruling Kills an Option for Moving Health Bill
The Senate Parliamentarian has ruled that President Barack Obama must sign Congress’ original health care reform bill before the Senate can act on a companion reconciliation package, senior GOP sources said Thursday.

The Senate Parliamentarian’s Office was responding to questions posed by the Republican leadership. The answers were provided verbally, sources said.

House Democratic leaders have been searching for a way to ensure that any move they make to approve the Senate-passed $871 billion health care reform bill is followed by Senate action on a reconciliation package of adjustments to the original bill. One idea is to have the House and Senate act on reconciliation prior to House action on the Senate’s original health care bill.

Information Republicans say they have received from the Senate Parliamentarian’s Office eliminates that option.


This is good news IMO. they need to scrap that POS bill and start over.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:18 PM 
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The problem is that even if it were started over, it wouldn't accomplish anything. Republicans have made it very clear that they would rather ensure that there is no healthcare overhaul than to let a bill pass that didn't give them 100 percent of what it is that they want.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:25 PM 
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For the 50th time, the GOP is not the party stopping health care reform. Lack of consensus among the party with huge majorities is. the House can pass the senate plan right now and hand it over to the president to sign, and it's done.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:50 PM 
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The Dems just need a little help from their friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:14 AM 
I schooled the old school.
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Quote:
For the 50th time, the GOP is not the party stopping health care reform. Lack of consensus among the party with huge majorities is. the House can pass the senate plan right now and hand it over to the president to sign, and it's done.


Done!


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:23 AM 
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It's kinda sad how childish the tantrums of the GOP were last night. I'm so glad this is done with.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:49 AM 
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it isn't over


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:03 AM 
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Quote:
it isn't over
Yeah, it's totally over dude :) If the GOP runs this November on repealing, they will not be successful. And I don't see any procedural gimmicks keeping it from getting signed and enacted. Time to cut your losses and move on to other things.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:05 PM 
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From ABCNews:

Quote:
Senators will take over the reconciliation fix-its as soon as Tuesday.

That will set in motion a week or longer parliamentary floor battle with points of order, references to the budget act, the Byrd Rule and more.

For an appetizer, take a look at Senate Budget Committee Ranking Member Judd Gregg’s statement tonight.

“Immediately after receiving the final reconciliation bill language, Senate Republican staff was ready and willing to meet with Senate Democratic staff and the Senate Parliamentarian to discuss the fact that the House reconciliation bill may be brought down by the 310(g) point of order in the Senate. Senate Democrats are mysteriously unavailable until after the House votes on the health care bill tonight. The Senate Democrats appear to be pushing off this meeting so that House Democrats will remain in the dark about what is likely to happen to the reconciliation bill on which many have staked their careers in Congress. House Democrats should be alarmed by this latest development, since the survival of the reconciliation bill is clearly at risk in the Senate.”

If Republicans can get the parliamentarian to agree with them even once, whatever ultimately passes the Senate will have to go back to the House.
And Democrats in the House quietly admit that its very likely they will have to vote again on the reconciliation fixes at some point down the road.


not done.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:04 PM 
Oh yeah? How 'bout I kick your ass?
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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:27 PM 
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Welcome to the Union of Socialist America.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:41 PM 
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It's going to be awesome when I get terminally ill, have to live in a hospital or rehab center well outside the coverage of my insurance, and have my kids not be able to send their kids to college because they paid for my medical bills.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:42 PM 
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No edit: This is not even close to enough. Health care should not be an industry.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:42 PM 
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Does the bill actually provide for that?


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:56 PM 
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Well I said two things that contradict each other, so which ever you are responding to, yes or no.

As long as there is private competition for health coverage, it's not enough. The government needs to be have a monopoly on the health care industry, and needs to lose massive amounts of money on it every year to ensure that its citizens can live.

Not Get Rich or Die Tryin'

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:43 PM 
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Pharma stock should do well. I'd be happier if the bill actually addressed what makes healthcare expensive. For one, unless there's some restriction on prescriptions we bought ourselves another decade of the status quo.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:42 PM 
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I tuned in to some conservative radio stations on the way to and from work today for a few chuckles. Man, I have never heard so much whining in my life. If that's all I listened to I think **I** would almost be convinced that Lenin has risen from the dead and taken over Congress!


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:30 PM 
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Wow, something actually happened with health care?!

Anyone have a link to a relatively objective summary of the bill? My Google-fu is weaksauce... I can't find any recent updates on *.gov, and all my other searches are inundated with a bunch of bloggy rants and raves.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:54 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:37 PM 
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lol.

Anyway, found a couple write-ups. I don't really see this as a revolutionary bill, but man the drama on both sides is hilarious.

Tonight's favorite from the left:

Image

And something a little more substantial from the right: (source)
David Frum wrote:
We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:32 AM 
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Добро пожаловать в Союз Социалистической Америки.


Quote:
Welcome to the Union of Socialist America.


(Only addressing Khan here, only including the translated part for clarity)

That's so cute.

It's funny because...do you even know what Socialism is? Can you articulate what it is about Socialism that you object to? Can you rationally explain - without references to the USSR or hyperbole about "grandma" - what about Socialism is so bad for us, the people?

I mean, if you're a billionare or something I can understand why you'd hate anything but pure capitalism. But if you're part of the other 99% of the nation, it's just perplexing to see people to against ideas that would benefit the whole and so supportive of ideas designed to bolster the positions of those already in power.

For the record, I don't think a pure socialist or capitalist system is ideal, I believe a mixture of the two is in the best interest of the people. This is how we live already, with a mixture of the two. We've just leaned more and more toward capitalism in recent decades.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:40 AM 
Oh yeah? How 'bout I kick your ass?
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Yeah , I know what socialism is.

Who pays for the 600 Billion it's going to cost? I don't know about you, but my tax bill is high enough. Social Security=Fail, Welfare=Fail, Medicare/aid= Fail and Social Health-care=fail. Has society not learned that anything coined and run by the government is doomed to failure. Hell, Hill staffers are exempt from the same fucking bill they just ran down your throat and they HELPED WRITE IT! Doesn't THAT in itself tell you something?

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:57 AM 
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Your tax bill is high enough? Unless you're already a multi-millionaire or something, the amount of taxes you and I pay is a complete joke compared to the incredible benefits we get from living here. Me? I'm willing to pay a little extra if that's what it takes. How could I possibly sit here in the luxury (yes, luxury) that is afforded to me here in the United States and then complain? Heh.

And sure, maybe those other programs were fail...if you never needed them. I can assure you that they weren't fail for people who found themselves in need of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:16 PM 
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Let's say you paid $1000 this year in taxes, Khan (your "tax bill," as it were). With the signing of this bill, do you really think you'll all of a sudden have to pay $5000 next year to "pay for it"? You guys are so insanely ridiculous, it's funny and sad at the same time. It's like you are programmed to complain so you just complain.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:58 PM 
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Sorry you think my tax bill is paltry Bovine. I guess paying 30k+ each year is pocket change for you, but not for me.

And yeah Neesha, here we are paying once again for something I will never use and probably being double charged since I will keep my current HC provider in lieu of some crap government plan. But even though I don't use it, I will still have to pay for it.

I for one like to hang onto my hard earned money, maybe you and bovine don't give 2 fucks, but I do.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:02 PM 
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I'm sorry you find contributing to society so distasteful. And the "I don't use it." argument is pretty terrible, I don't think I should really have to explain why.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:14 PM 
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Quote:
And the "I don't use it." argument is pretty terrible, I don't think I should really have to explain why.


I think a few of you should all chip in and buy me a boat that only I can use. You can't use it, but you have to pay for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:16 PM 
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The problem with your analogy is that it's poor.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:17 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
I'm sorry you find contributing to society so distasteful.


Each of us here already contributes to society. This bill will cause us to contribute even more and in most cases to programs that we don't and/or won't need.

I'm with Khan on this crap.

If you're in a job without any available healthcare coverage, then fix that yourself, I already have my own dependents to care for.


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:21 PM 
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Doesn't the whole 'I won't use it argument' support the idea of total government run health care?

I agree that most of what the government runs is run poorly but health care is a unique beast and shouldn't be run for profit as said here many many times.

There's a growing number of people who want government run daycare in Canada, something I think is probably a bad idea and can be run just fine privately.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:25 PM 
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Why shouldn't healthcare be run for a profit?

That's the side of the argument I don't agree with.

Potential for profit is what brings people into the business, and if an excellent doctor can't make more money than an "okay" doctor, there's really no reason to excel in the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:47 PM 
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From Investor's Business daily
Quote:
The sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation bill as displayed by the Rules Committee.

1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501)

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employers’ slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.
You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze plan,” which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d)(1)(A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513).

10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)).

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare provider agreement” by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A)).

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed “unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003)

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).


16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).
The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405).

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).
That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).


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 Post subject: Re: Health Care bill
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:56 PM 
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I want Universal Health Coverage. Bring on single payer. I have mixed emotions about this mostly related to timing and process.

My biggest problem is related to all of the lies and crooked politics that went into getting this enacted.


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