You are right, I don't understand the psyche of a battered woman.

My rationale is that in this case, ok the judge my be a big shot in this smallish town, but there is a bigger town next door and there is someone bigger than this judge that can help me stop it.

There is zero debate that the judge is 100% wrong in this and he scores higher marks in the evil category for picking targets that would not stand up to him. (I am going to keep repeating this because I don't want anyone to think that I have any pity or anything for that scumbag).

Why do women that are in situations like this not go an extra step to make it stop? This isn't the 1950's anymore. When a woman says that she is being abused/harassed/threatened it is taken as a very serious matter.

I had a slight brush with this attitude when I was a young adult. I was working as a waiter and one of the women there was talking about the bad things that her live-in boyfriend was doing to her. I asked her "Why don't you leave?" and she didn't miss a beat saying "I don't want to, he loves me."

When my daughter was born that incident played over in my head and I swore right there that I would do everything that I could to raise my daughter to never allow herself to be in that situation. She is 12 now, I will soon see how my years of training (and ongoing training) have done. I know I can't protect her from everything, but I want her to know that she does have power to stop someone from taking advantage of her.

It isn't just fear they have to overcome, with sexual abuse comes shame and embarrassment and despair. Some people go numb. I have no doubt he preyed on the weak. While they hoped the law would protect them, someone would help them.

So she's fired. Get a new job. This isn't fucking rocket science. What's harder to deal with: looking for work, or getting sexually assaulted every couple of weeks? I swear, you'll come up with any ridiculous justification for them sticking around and getting abused.

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So you are unwilling to go through the intellectual exercise I laid out for you?

blinders, my friend. Blinders.

Even in 2003 there were whistleblower protections in place. Especially in Government, this shouldn't happen.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I have to echo whoever said "So?" above.

So you get fired. Aren't you trying to get the hell away from the guy and situation anyway?

This really only goes to support my assertion that they were rationalizing it and putting up with it as long as they were getting a good paycheck. If as far back as 2003 she realized it was wrong and said something and was just afraid of "losing her job" then clearly it became an issue of "Paycheck" versus "Dignity" and the former won out and she willingly subjected herself to it as long as that paycheck was there.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but her going to her supervisor as far back as 2003 and backing down because she was afraid of getting fired only goes to show that this wasn't just some psychologically damaged woman who thought the abuse was "OK" but rather someone more interested in the job than her dignity.

You want me to follow your little roadmap to the conclusion you've got laid out at the end. I detour from it, you get irritated and say I've got blinders on. I just refuse to be railroaded into your idea as to how things work.

I'm fully aware of the potential for experience shaping personality. I'm also aware that there are many people who grow up with similar experiences that ended up as remarkably different people, even siblings raised in the same household, so experience isn't everything. I don't care if you had a shitty childhood. I don't care if daddy beat you. All that actually matters are the decisions you make now. And the choice was made by these woman to undergo years of abuse instead of walking away from it. They chose not to leave. Nothing you say will change the fact that they made a decision to endure these sexual assaults.

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Here's my question: At what point is it OK to stop giving a shit about them? If they had come forward immediately, or after the second time or the 23rd time, all this is a non issue? Is there a particular cutoff when we can just say "oh, they haven't come forward by now so it's all good. If they eventually do, we will just ridicule them because they no longer deserve sympathy?"

The phrase "better late than never" springs to mind, for me.

"Never" would be the response of at least a few people, probably. It depends on how much empathy you have for people in general.

I tend to think as our understanding of the brain increases we may end up having a sort of quasi-revolution in the way we think about people's behaviour based on environment, in the same way we sort of ended scoffing at those with serious mental disabilities as lazy or undisciplined.

Not the same context, mind you, as personal responsibility is at play here to an extent. But the question of outside intervention/influence or lack thereof plays an enormous part that people overlook when judging these types of folks. Things we think are inherent to every human being - willpower, motivation, drive - are more often than not influenced by the ideals set forth in our childhood.

Ahh but see, you are wrong. Let's keep going the way you just did. Let's say it's not their experience that put them there. Why are they lazy and undisciplined, if it isn't a result of their experience?

I'm going to keep trying, until you stop assuming you know where I'm going :p

When you start to feel as though they accepted the bargain at hand willingly.

I won't bother repeating my previous posts, but that's how it feels the more details that come out.



Can I just come out here and say, "Who cares?"

Yes, we're all molded at least in part by our experiences. You also - day to day - make your own choices. One does not release you from the responsibility of the other.

I care, very much. I'm not going to be upset about something if it's part of their own nature, any more than I can be pissed at someone with a low IQ for being stupid.

These kinds of things are usually about the life experience in my opinion, though, but I was just going the other route for Tyral's sake.

Even if you want to give them credit for being fragile for whatever reason, they clearly were NOT just poor helpless little ladies who didn't know any better, or who thought the abuse was ok. At least one of them reported it to their supervisor very early on, but clearly decided that the paycheck was worth the loss of dignity.

Sorry, but that was a choice. There was (apparently) no threats of harm or other retribution. She was simply offered the choice of "Money and abuse" or "Find another job" and took the former.

No, you decided to reverse course because I pointed out how predictable you are.

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What I pointed out is true either way. Whether you can open your eyes to people different than you enough to recognize it has nothing to do with me.

Not everyone is like you, Tyral. I can only assume that your own life is absolutely perfect-- because your an adult and therefore have completely control over your life and and your choices, right?

Yes, because this is all about me.

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I have to say, Fribur, you lost me somewhere along your philosophical trail.

Yeah, I probably wasn't very clear.

Here, I'll try again, and I won't be an ass about it. Some of this was already stated by Joxur.

We don't know why these women took it as long as they did. Assuming they are just like us, and capable of making decisions just like us, is not a fair assumption. People make their decisions on anything in life because of a huge complex chain of events that led up to that point. We shouldn't assume that because we think that we ourselves would easily walk away that this means that everyone would do the same. Indeed, the fact that they didn't walk away for so long means there is something going on here beyond a simple, "just leave!" solution.

If they didn't leave simply because they are stupid (as Tyral repeatedly suggests), then it doesn't seem right to me that we should look down on them for being stupid. If they didn't leave because circumstances in their environment growing up created them to be this away, again perhaps it doesn't seem right that we should look down on them for this. Either way, I'm going to give victims sympathy and not pretend I understand everything about the way a victim's psyche works.

Tyral's insistence that they are adults and therefore should be able to make decisions just like him ignores the reality that human beings live very different lives. Tyral makes it sound like the word "adult" means that everyone will make the most optimal decision regardless of circumstance, and if they don't there should be no mercy and no empathy. Therefore, I am hoping that Tyral's life is a perfect example of what an adult should be, because otherwise if anything wrong ever happens to him we can say, "well he made bad choices, so fuck him."

I hope this helps. I realize reading through Tyral's all-star posting in this thread that perhaps this is a hopeless cause.

Good post Fribur.

I was thinking the same thing about you, dude. In your reality, no one is ever truly responsible for anything they do because their environment or education level or whatever made them do it. You don't assign any responsibility to people for the choices they make because, according to your theory, no choice is without years of baggage and therefore not completely under the control of the individual.

So while you may feel some sort of empathy with these women, I look at them and think that they're only a short step away from being women who would allow someone to abuse their own children if the "cost" of ending it was "too high" or purely because their will was too weak. And, according to your fucked-up logic, they wouldn't be responsible for that choice either.

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You really can't fault Tyral for his assholeishness, Fribur.

After all, where did the assholeishness come from?

I do say, sir, that jib has been exquisitely cut.

You don't have to absolve someone of responsibility to feel bad for them.

That's exactly right.

The difference is, when we're trying to create a society where people don't do this shit, is that when people are victims, we try to help them. When people are assholes or perpetrators, we tell them to fuck off. This is, of course, to create a set of experiences within this society that hopefully, eventually, helps to end the bullshit behavior.

LOL! You are so ridiculous, it's hilarious. No one has any responsibility for anything? Let's all go mass murder bunnies and shit!

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I'm asking you to separate yourself from the situation and try to simply think philosophically.

What makes you, you?

It's the sum of two things-- nature and nurture. If neither existed, would you be able to do anything at all, or would you be like the robots discussed in the general forum a few weeks ago?

Is there any chance you can just think it out esoterically, or will you just deride it since it's different than the way you want to think? What have your experiences and your nature dictated that you respond?

esoterically wasn't the word I was looking for.

Perhaps "dispassionately" would have been better.

Fribur, the problem I have with your whole idea of how things work is that you've narrowed it so intensely that you appear to ignore the fact that "nurture" comprises thousands of moments and events in a person's life. We learn from what we choose to learn from. Again, it comes down to choice. You can either decide that you are powerless because of a poor experience as a child, or you can take to heart one of the thousands of messages to the contrary that are delivered by all walks of life and society on a nearly daily basis. It's a choice.

I also dislike that you seem to ignore the idea of personal responsibility. You appear to believe that no one is ever really responsible for anything they do. I'm curious if this is the case, or if you have some means of balancing your views on nature/nurture, choice, and responsibility. I don't think you do, since you've ignored every mention of responsibility so far, but you might surprise me.

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No, I've already answered it. I've followed my own logic down to the point of, "there is no personal responsibility, anywhere." I'm hoping you will provide me a logical way to leave this line of thinking.

The neat thing is, this doesn't mean we can't create negative consequences for people who do things we consider to be "bad" or "evil." It simply frames the reason for having such consequences in a different way-- the consequences we put on people who do bad things become tools we use to shape experiences in other people's lives so that they will behave in a way in which we like.

Another consequence of this line of logic is that it also easily encompasses the point of view that to vilify the victims in this situation is a pretty asshole thing to do, and the rest of us reacting negatively to that represents our small attempt to get you to change your asshole behavior. Your horrible attitude about the women in question, however, serves no purpose, and we can only hope to shape your future environment enough that maybe it can overcome the apparently asshole nature you have inherited (since you insist you didn't learn your assholeness from nurture).

Fribur, is it possible to act in a manner that is contrary to both nature and nurture?

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no-- at least, I can find no visible proof that it is possible in what I've seen in my own existence. By definition, if you are acting in a certain way, it is a product of your nature and nurture.

Based on my own experiences, I disagree. It is impossible to understand any individual's nature and nurture completely, but I've seen people who were raised in a positive environment, with parents who cared and provided positive guidance, do extraordinarily evil acts without any explanation for them. No mental illness. No abuse. No learning disability. No family history of violence. Nothing. They just decided to act in an evil fashion.

We can continue to argue this, or we can accept that our experiences differ and that neither view can be proven.

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But there's no rational reason for this. There is something going on that you missed, unless you believe there is something beyond biology within us.

Maybe he was influenced to do evil by Satan

Yea seriously, I'm not sure what other possible influencers there could be outside of nature and nurture. That just about covers it all, outside of supernatural beliefs.

Evil acts in the face of good raising can be explained away by either outside environmental influence(even good parents can be out-influenced by bad friends and figures in their childrens' lives) or even arguably genetics which predispose someone to certain behaviour(this is hotly debated as I understand it but I wouldn't be surprised given other things that are passed down).

Free will. Humans have the ability to make choices in spite of influence, or in the absence of influence. An intelligent, capable adult is responsible for the choices they make, regardless of nature or nurture, because no intelligent, capable adult is without the capacity to choose.

I'm sure you will argue. You have your beliefs, I have mine. You can't prove mine to be incorrect (and vice versa), because all you have is a hypothesis about human action based on your personal experiences and a limited understanding of the human psyche.

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"Free choice" is a choice you make based on a series of events that led you to make that decision. A series of events that spawned from your environment.

Even in the case of the person who was raised in a positive environment and turned out to do evil deeds, something in their environment still affected their choices. I mean, people would not know there were bad choices to begin with unless their environment told them that it was possible.

That doesn't mean people can't still make good and bad choices, but those choices are still going to be "informed" by something. Even crazyass "IM GUNNA KILL EVERYONE IN A 25-MILE RADIUS FOR SHITS WITH A SWORD" isn't a completely random free choice.

Yep.

You can't possibly prove that.

Regardless, you guys want to live in a la-la world without any responsibility for anything, you go right ahead. The real world doesn't work that way, and I'm might fucking thankful for it.

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Yeah, that really bothers me in our society nowadays.

No one IS anything. You're not dumb, slow, bad, evil, stupid, greedy, lazy, irresponsible, etc etc...you're always afflicted by something instead that makes you not to blame for any of it.

Why do people correlate empathy and culpability?

In the case of these women. Let's say that I concede that they are at fault. They totally should have done something differently. They should not have stayed in that situation for any length of time, much less as long as they did. Let's assume that we're in complete agreement about that.

What then? Practically, what punishment do you suggest for them? It's not ok to feel bad that they were in a shitty situation for years because for some reason that you don't understand, they didn't do anything about it? Perhaps we should let the man abusing them off the hook, because they are at fault. What does it accomplish, this venting that they should have changed their circumstances? Yes, they should have. They didn't. This doesn't make the man in the case any less deserving of punishment now that they finally have come forward, in my opinion.

So yeah, go ahead and call them names if it makes you feel better. I just don't see what you're getting out of it.

I don't see that so much. I was never really into calling people names or labeling them though. Besides, we're all the same in Gods eyes.

My post was in response to the last post by Bovinity in case there's any confusion.

No one suggested punishing them or letting the guy off the hook.

Yeah, how the fuck did you ever interpret that these ladies should be punished?

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

The position I'm taking isn't about "proving" or "disproving," at least in the scientific sence. It's a logic exercise, and I've presented my logic as a proof. I'm asking you to provide me the logic that would point me away from my current position. So far you've only provided supernatural intervention, and "go ahead and be stupid." That's not going to convince me.

If I am wrong, then show me where in my logical progression that I'm wrong.

sorry about the double post-- I thought I should point out that it occurs to me that I'm not arguing anything new-- the argument over the extent of our supposed free will is an old philosophical one.

I'm not the person who mentioned anything supernatural. I said "free will." That's not a supernatural concept. A person may ignore influences to make a choice that does not coincide with either nature or nurture. Your only response has been been essentially "nuh-uh."

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I think that ignoring their plight or leaving them to suffer the consequences of their actions could be construed as punishment. That was never suggested specifically, but seems to be the logical implication to me. Regardless, I was engaged in a bit of exaggeration for effect, I will admit. Either way, the point is, what do you want? If you don't feel bad and you came to this thread to shout to the public that, by golly, you don't care about these women, then mission accomplished! The idea that you don't give a shit about them, but still think we should help them and punish their persecutors seems a little weirdly contradictory to me, but whatever. More power to ya. I just don't get why it's so important to make sure everyone knows how little regard you have for them, if that's the case.

I may have the answer. It is a way of reinforcing in his own mind, while establishing with everyone else, that this isn't behavior to allow oneself to engage in. Making it clear he has every intention of doing something other than what these women did in allowing the abuse to continue or even occur in the first place and strongly suggesting that we all follow his example. Much in the same way that others are trying to suggest a little empathy. So really he's just trying to protect everyone here.

Free will IS supernatural because it doesn't fucking exist. All it is is a cop out for people who want to think they're special little snowflakes in control of their lives.

People are a product of their past. EVERYTHING a person does is dictated by what they have experienced or have not experienced. But ultimately it really doesn't matter. Because personal responsibility is just saying you have to deal with the consequences of your actions (or inactions.) Personal responsibility is loaded down with a bunch of bullshit.

When you got some fucker going apeshit killing people in a 25 mile radius, the fucker is probably mentally unbalanced. He has a reason for doing the shit he's doing, even if it only makes sense to him. Captain Fucking Crunch could have told him while he was chomping down on the peanut buttery goodness and he knows that if he doesn't obey, the Capt. will be pretty pissed of and cut him.

But that doesn't matter. You don't say to him, oh well, you're clearly not in control of your actions, so here's a cookie and go on home. You lock the fucker up. In a mental facility probably, or jail (since mental health facilities are no longer fashionable to fund), or even the electric chair. Yeah, sucks that he's bonkers, but society has a need to defend itself from people like that. We can have sympathy for the crazy dude, but he's dangerous and needs to be contained in a manner such that he won't go off killing other people.

As for the topic at hand. I sympathize with anyone who is sexually assaulted, and I hope whoever did so suffers horribly. However, my sympathy diminishes somewhat (note, does not disappear) if they allow such to go on for 7 years. There are many paths to take in today's world, and in the course of 7 years, the women must have at least once come to the conclusion that their current situation was preferable to any of those. That in no way condones the actions of the perpetrator, but, like I said, it diminishes the degree in which I am 'outraged.'

Largely, this is because we don't have the full story, and I doubt we ever will. There are any number of scenarios in which this is not an event in which we think it is. Yes, men are sex-starved scumbags, but women are also capable of doing some downright nasty shit too. And while it most certainly deserves investigating, a 7 year wait before coming forward should be a warning flag to say 'perhaps this isn't as simple as they say it is.'

If you claim that we can make decisions that do not come as a result of nature OR nurture, then all that is left is supernatural means.

If anything, your take on it sounds more supernatural than anything, Fribs. The idea that every choice we ever make is predetermined early on. That we cannot ever willfully change or find the strength to break away from our norm for any reason, that no decision we make is truly of our own will because it was predestined anyway and enforced by our mental programming.

Sounds very religion-esque.

That isn't what he's saying. He's saying that everything you do is a reaction to your upbringing and environment.

Including striving against that upbringing and environment. "Breaking the cycle" and all that jazz.

You can never truly have a reaction to X that doesn't involve your brain processing every experience you've ever had and deciding what to do from there. It isn't possible. It is the way we are wired. We've evolved way past the "will it eat me, hurt me, feed me, fuck me?" comparison model, but not that far. On some level we are always comparing our current situation to our previous experience.

It's called learning and adapting. There's nothing mystical about it. The day you stop doing it is the day you die.

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Yes, and I agree, but Fribur seems to be offering a behavioral model that is far more strict, where we can just predict everyone's behavior because it's practically predetermined by their past.

People are far more complicated than that. They'll surprise you sometimes.

That's exactly why heavy-handed judgments on two women who were sexually assaulted at work based on a single article is stupid.

That's a hurty word, Joxur.

I'm curious to know what you guys think about people on welfare.

Depends -- how long have they been on it, and what are they actively doing to get off of it?

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]