This is very troubling. N. Korea is doing some major saber rattling and it seems that there has not been much of a US or UN response.

Reuters Story


Something big is going to happen there soon and it could define the current administration.

Yep, and we need to take "self-defence measures" as well.

Maybe it's a time for a reckoning.

They pulled this shit before and Bush ignored it. I thought that was asinine at the time, given how batshit he was going on Iraq for WMD they didn't have, and ignoring N.K. who did.

And yet...that might have been the best solution. The situation for the people of N.K. is *horrific*. Anything we or the U.N. does short of removing the existing government would probably adversely effect those people who are already horrifically oppressed and innocent of this bullshit, and serve the regime because nothing unifies like an 'attack' from the outsiders, especially when you keep the people mired in ignorance.

I really don't know what the U.N. should do about N.K.....but I think it should be their problem, not ours. We're not the World Police, no one likes the 'Police' so when we act as such we're not making any friends....and we have enough fucking problems of our own. Assist the U.N.? Sure. But let them handle it, and if they can't handle such things, then make changes at the U.N.

I do feel really bad for the N. Korean people though, the shit I've seen on what their life is like, it's almost unbelievable. Or maybe it's just that I don't want to believe it.

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I think a strongly worded memo from the UN is in order.

North Korea is a bigger shithole than Iraq was. You think Iraqis were oppressed and tortured and starved? North Korea has set the bar so high on treating their citizens like shit that very few places can compare. The vast majority of food goes to their military (which is freaking enormous for the size of their country). Not only does it keep their soldiers well-fed, but it acts as incentive for young people to join.

They aren't allowed any information that isn't vigorously screened by their government. In fact, they're so inundated with propaganda that it would be nearly impossible to take the country without facing huge resistance from the average citizens, despite the fact that they're treated like utter shit. They just don't know any better.

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I'm not sure what a strike on NK gets us. Even if we eliminated their nukes, their nuke production capability and their long range missile production... they can still pound the fuck out of south korea and cause a huge, huge mess. It seems to be what they want, since they've wrung every concession from the major stakeholders they can.

We don't have the conventional forces nearby to stop a wholesale invasion - certainly not before Seoul is demolished.

I like foreign policy, I like to think about what other nations are up to. Though I'm by no means an expert at all, just a dork who reads the internet a lot. But I can't even decide which direction we should go on the path to fixing North Korea. Wait for Kim to die? Intervene economically? Reach out after Kim passes and try to foster a more moderate government? Lean on China diplomatically to pressure the North? I mean, they all sound like good ideas and I know they've all been tried.

No argument Tyral I think everyone has either said or knows what you posted...and sadly I can name even worse shitholes in the world.

The question is; what to do?

I really don't know. I don't want to see the US involved in a THIRD fucking war. I don't want to see the US being 'the world's police', especially when that policing seems to focus in on some places more so than others and has the appearance (and reality) of corporate interests.

And yet Joxur's point is also valid, even though he puts it sarcastically. The UN doesn't seem really effective.

Maybe if we're not intervening they'd have to be. Or they'd have to be reformed to become effective.

I really don't know what to do, but I know what I don't want to see done. And I do feel really badly for the N.Koreans because it is a fucking hellhole, and one that I don't see being fixed short of toppling the existing govt.

And let's face it, the UN isn't going to do that.

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Give Japan nukes?

As sad as it sounds -- NK is a sovereign country, and no one has any business toppling their existing government except as a method of actual conquest/annexation -- UNLESS THEY ACTUALLY COMMIT AN ACT OF WAR -- which they won't, not as long as they want China's support.

Rest assured, China will yank back the leash on NK long before they actually become a threat -- at least until China wants the world to go to war.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

From what I have read, Kim Jong-Il is doing this to prepare succession of power to one of his sons. He is making this noise scaring his population into further submission (if that was possible) by telling them that the Evil US is planning an invasion of North Korea.

The UN has proven time and time again that they can not handle things like this. There are too many third world dictators that have a say in the UN that don't see anything wrong with what N.K. is doing for the UN to commit to anything that has any teeth.

I think we will see N.K. blow up a South Korean fishing boat or two that "illegally enters North Korea waters" this June. They have a history of doing this in the disputed waterways around the two countries.

China won't do anything and won't feel any pressure from the US because they are holding all our bonds. (on a side note they are very unhappy at the current spending policy but that is another thread) China won't do anything unless N.K. threatens China. N.K. knows that if they threaten China then they will be eliminated. N.K. is threatening S.K because it knows the US won't do anything to them.

And why should we?

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Whats really disturbing is they dropped the "h" off of north. Now that's evil.

rofl. Who would expect less from this man?

he's just ronery..oh so ronery.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I noticed that after I hit post, would a mod please fix the title, replace the missing H

it's more amusing without it though.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I figured it was intentional. It's the second time I've seen that today.

BTW - any idea why Google Maps removed map data for North Korea? Sat images are still there...

It was probably removed by request of the north korean government.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Street maps are dangerous.

north koreans can't even have cell phones.

the paranoia of the NK government is unparalleled. KJI takes the lessons of Chairman Mao and goes WAY too far.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Not entirely unexpected though. If any country were to be secretive enough to ask for their images and/or map data to be removed, it'd be Nort Korea.

Seriously though, give Japan nukes? Are you kidding? If they wanted to develop them, they'd be done by now. They already have all the materials necessary. And the question of whether they'd actually want them is another story entirely, and I seriously doubt it.

Japan signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. And unlike the US violating the Geneva Conventions, which you support, Japan apparently honors its their commitments.

Exactly, which makes the statement "give em nukes!" all the more asinine if the above reasons didn't already.

Even China is annoyed at NK right now, which is a good thing.
China is changing and the world around NK is changing. Keep them in a little box and let them starve.

That quote sounds consistent with what they've been saying AFTER the tests as well. Secretary Gates said something to the effect of "we are not in crisis mode yet" even after this recent activity by NK. And really, what are the North Koreans doing that's all that different from what they've been doing for the past 10+ years? Not sure what the fuss is about.

From what I understand is its not a nuclear treaty as much as there Post WW2 constitution in which Japan was forbidden to ever lead a war again or to maintain an army.

So to correct Joxur's statement "Japan apparently follows it's Constitution

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Your hypothesis is wrong.. it's not forbidden in their constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Constitution_of_Japan

Your right they don't say "hey we can't have Nukes", but I would think that would be implied in "as well as other war potential".


http://www.sangiin.go.jp/eng/law/index.htm

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

My respect for Japan just went up by a massive degree.

Listen, I'm not advocating they should. I saw it as a story and I thought it was an interesting point from a deterrence perspective.

Regarding the language.. am I to go with a PM of Japan's interpretation, or your own?

I don't care who does what as long as the US stays out of it.



Its not my interpretation,

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

They got hit by two atomic bombs shortly before signing that. It's not as if they did it out of a sense of altruism.

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That doesn't affect my respect for their position.

Japan didn't choose to not have a military, the US chose for them to not have a military. Or rather, to forego a military and instead remain under the US protection that was established during the occupation.

Yeah, no shit, good for them, huh? If I ever have a gun held to my head and get forced to agree that there's no such thing as personal responsibility, you'll have respect for my position too, eh?

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ok

Hmm.

Japan warns that North Korea may fire missile at U.S. on Independence Day
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... e-Day.html






Think we should shoot it down?

If they shoot a ballistic missile at our country that is an act of war.

We will probably try to shoot it down, as we should. (where are those arguments against SDI now?) Then the administration will have "strong words" for North Korea as they continue to show the world how weak we are.

You seriously want to debate SDI?

We've been attacked by an Asian country in Hawaii once before.

Stung like a bitch but it made us unleash the fury on them. NK would be committing suicide if they attempted something like that.

Launch anything at the U.S. and North Korea will be a fucking wasteland within months.

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Do you actually think that if North Korea launched a non-nuclear missile at Hawaii that we'd respond with military actions, with this administration?

Or "effective" military action, given the last administration? <3

We wouldn't have a choice. Not reacting with military action to such an overtly aggressive move would be seen as an extraordinary weakness.

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Not gonna happen.

But if it did happen, not a chance we don't respond militarily. Doesn't matter who is in office.

Yeah, a clear attack by a soverign nation would be plenty to get some military action, I'm sure....as opposed to just invading people for no reason, like we did before.

North Korea will shoot the missile towards Hawaii, not to land on Hawaii/US lands. Thus more posturing and saber-rattling by NK and no real response by the US.

What would you want the US response to be for a missile being fired into the water?

Considering you're apparently a Bush fan, you'd probably be all for the no holds barred invasion of the entire eurasian continent. <3

In all honesty, it is too late for anything to be done against North Korea. We just have to wait for them to actually attack the US or one of their neighbors.

If they do launch a ballistic missile that lands near US territory then an air-strike, or other long ranged strike against the launch site would be an appropriate response, IMO. Such a strike would reduce the ability for NK to launch similar attack and not but many lives at immediate risk.

Not that Frib has been involved in this thread, but please notice that I am suggesting the removal of the infrastructure that enables NK to launch these missiles, not a strike on the people.

For the record, yes I voted for Bush and don't think that he is the devil that many of you believe. I do feel that Bush did make many, many, mistakes as well. Don't paint me as a Bushie, or a Bush fanboi. I think Obama is a Democrat version of the same person.

Related news:

U.S. Navy tracks North Korean ship
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... TE20090618

I guess the problem I have with the idea of attacking NK for talking shit or lauching a missle into the ocean is just that I hate our attitude of "World Parent" sometimes.

I mean, we would go absolutely BATSHIT INSANE if some other nation bombed something in the continental US because they didn't like the threat we posed, or we launched a missle that came close to their borders, or some other shit like that. But we seem to think it's just A-OK to go off and blow up stuff because we feel like it.

It isn't that they just launched a missile in the water, it is that they launched a missile in the water that was just off our coast.

It is posturing by NK. Showing the world that they are not afraid of the US and are willing to threaten the US.

Think of it like you have this obnoxious neighbor that does everything in his power to piss you off, without actually coming into your yard or hitting you directly. Then that neighbor says that he can hit one of your kids/pets/whatever and comes close to pulling it off. What would you do?

How would you respond if someone threatened your family? Or worse, shot at your home? Even if they deliberately missed, and it was just a threat, how would you react?

It's not a "world parent" thing. We're not intervening in someone else's business. The threat is being made directly at us, so that argument is invalid.

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This isn't a house or a family. There's a entirely different scope and scale of responsibility when you're dealing with nations and weapons than when you're dealing with a nutty neighbor. The analogies are poor. You really want us going off and attacking anyone that even threatens us?

Oh, wait, we did that. How's that working?

Iraq is not North Korea. If North Korea fires a missile that actually has a chance of striking U.S. territory, I think we need to seriously consider military options.

There's a difference between talking shit and taking a swing at someone.

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Oh, I'd agree. If they have a missile that can actually reach us and they fire it at us, I'd be all for retaliation.

As it stands, by all accounts the missile in question cannot even reach Hawaii.

No, but it might be able to reach Alaska.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Most of the Alaskan islands that are closer are unpopulated. If North Korea wants to hit a U.S. population center, they're going to aim for Hawaii.

And as far as we know, the missile in question falls about 500 miles short of the range needed to hit Hawaii, but that doesn't mean they won't have one that can in a year. Remember, it was just a couple of years ago that their best missile could only go about 2,000 miles.

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