I really don't think that is a legitimate question...at all. Bin Laden is constantly on the move and he operates through a very select few individuals...those individuals go forward with his orders to other individuals...and those individuals go forward to cells that carry out those orders. I am willing to bet 99.9999% of all Al Qaeda terrorists have never met Bin Laden, so they have no idea where his specific whereabouts are either. You can't torture legitimate information out of someone if they don't have legitimate information to give you.

I'll tell you why he is still on the loose though. He is in Pakistan where they are unwilling to hunt him down and where they will not let our forces in to get him. I blame Pakistan 100% for us not having him in custody, or dead.

100%? Yeah, not so much. Don't doubt for a second that Bin Laden isn't a political commodity.

Of course he is a political commodity...but Pakistan is the sole entity refusing our forces to go in and get him. that is why I place 100% of the blame on them. They won't get him...they won't let us get him...they are to blame. if they open their borders to our forces and let us hunt him down, it would be a matter of months before we got him. Instead, years have gone by and Bin Laden has the luxury of skirting the Afghanistan/Pakistan border without fear of anyone doing a thing to him. If Pakistan was truly on our side...if they REALLY wanted to help us catch Bin Laden, they would let us in.

Why would they let us into their country? The leadership there would lose any support from the people. Accidents or not there are dead civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq and no one would willingly invite that into their homeland.

I'm very convinced that Bin Laden is dead. The man needs regular dialysis treatments and I'm pretty sure that wherever he was hiding in 2001-2003 he couldn't get them.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Not sure I buy this. I think we could have gotten in there and done work, but the Bush administration didn't really play nice with others. The Pakis certainly had a challenge with credibility, but they could have given covert support. Woulnd't be the first time.

As I see it, the biggest problem with torture is what it does to the person performing the torture (and up the chain), not receiving. I think that's a huge point that many people fail to consider.

Think of the pictures from abu ghraib. What was so horrifying about them? For me, and I think many others, it was the young men and women's "thumbs up" merriment. I felt like they had lost much of their humanity.

So even if we say, screw the bad guys, who do we become?

I can definitely agree that's worrysome. No one should be excited or happy about torturing someone.

I can think of at least one example.

Agreed. One does not equate to the other. Should we bypass economic sanctions and diplomacy and move straight to war for the next conflict because North Korea is testing nukes again? Of course not. Many good plans fail and many poor plans succeed. I'm not sure what side of the torture fence I am on now (convincing arguments on both sides imo), but I don't like this particular point.

Taking into consideration the background I've gleaned you having through your posts and the fact that every interview I've seen from people with similar backgrounds (people familiar with intelligence and interrogation) echoing this, further solidifies my conviction on the subject.

Another compelling argument against it for me.

I agree. I make a point of not dealing in absolutes but this is an exception I wholeheartedly make. Not only because it's morally reprehensible (which should be enough really) but also because I believe it's woefully unreliable.

I like how Cheney keeps trying to imply there are memos proving that torture saved lives... but he can't seem to get them made available.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 91,00.html



Clearly we need to send Fribur.

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After a year in a prison in Yemen, there's a lot most people would do.