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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:06 PM 
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Obviously I agree with that. Unfortunately for DADT opponents, the Rep. who had been spearheading the bill to repeal (Taucher) accepted a position in the administration, and it has kind of floundered.

Rep Sestak (the Dem who is positioning to primary against Specter) was a Rear Admiral in the Navy (iirc). He stated fairly unequivocally last week (iirc) on Rachel Maddow that he thought DADT needed to go and would be willing to try to gather a group of Democratic Reps who are also Vets to bring repeal legislation. No timeline, of course, so we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:18 PM 
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Obama has ridiculously high approval ratings, and made it a campaign pledge - and, frankly, is the commander in chief. He needs to shine a spotlight on it if anything is going to happen. Doubtful a member of Congress will take this on because they're more liable to suffer for it in the short-term. Obama isn't facing an election for 3 years, and honestly, this will not even be on the radar at that point. It's not as risky to him as a member of Congress.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:20 PM 
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I think the political expediency is a matter of opinion, Kula.

I'm familiar with the Palm Center and Nathaniel Frank's scholarship on DADT (you can do an author search on Amazon for his book). Looking through the Executive Summary on that report, they make it clear that the President has the authority to suspend the suspensions (heh), but that Congressional action would be required to repeal DADT.

So I guess it then becomes a question of which is better - to have the Oval Office impose a unilateral suspension onto the Joint Chiefs as CIC or to have Congress prove that polling that shows that 70% of Americans support DADT repeal.

As much as I support DADT repeal, sooner rather than later, I don't think the unilateral approach is the smarter of the two. I'd rather see folks like Lt Choi raising awareness and gathering public support.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:56 PM 
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Exactly Bearne. I'm all for repealing this, but ramming it down people's throat simply isn't the way to do it. The backlash would just set us back, not move us forward.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:57 PM 
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:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 3:50 PM 
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Quick addition: I don't mean to let Obama off the hook here. He does have a bully pulpit and has the ability to publically express his belief that this needs to move forward, as he indicated he would last fall. I said as much about both DADT and DOMA in the most recent Obama and ActBlue fundraising emails that hit my inbox as I politely declined to send in any cash.

I'm also wondering - pure speculation - if this has something to do with retaining Gates at Defence. I think that overall a smart thing in keeping Gates on board to provide continuity. It may be that it is a topic that Gates has taken off the table so long as he's SoD.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:43 PM 
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Gates vs DADT repeal, if that is the case, is a no-brainer for me. DADT repeal is much more important than any single individual in any single office.

While I agree the legislative repeal is the preferred method I can't agree that waiting for it is better than actually providing equality as soon as possible. IMO it's already had to wait far too long.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:52 PM 
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hmmph.

Democrats Pull Funding For Guantanamo Closure
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/1 ... 05224.html


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:19 AM 
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joxur wrote:
hmmph.

Democrats Pull Funding For Guantanamo Closure
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/1 ... 05224.html

I don't really understand the misgivings about this.

Quote:
"I can't make it any more clear," Reid said. "We will never allow terrorists to be released in the United States."
Has anyone, anywhere, ever suggested this? We do have incarceration facilities in the United States.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:24 PM 
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the obama law is if you let them out of gitmo they get high-authority jobs in the us military/faa/nasa so they can put their skills to good use for the good of the country

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:48 AM 
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I don't get it either. We already have terrorists and other very dangerous people in our prisons. Politics suck.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:56 AM 
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I wonder how many of them would get shanked if in general population in a prison!


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:57 AM 
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They wouldn't be in general population, presumably.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:59 AM 
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It's bothersome on a couple of different levels.

1. As Fribur noted, its not like we don't already hold serial killers, terrorists, etc., in our prisons. We've got a larger percentage of our population incarcerated than any other country in the world (or maybe we're #2 or #3). It's not like Americans are slackers at keeping people locked up for very long time.

2. It's never been proven that a lot of these guys were ever terrorists. And a number of them have been exonerated (like the Uighur).

Of course (and this will probably get me flamed, but whatever), I'm sure there's a subpopulation who were just guys in the wrong place at the time. But after six years of being picked up off the street and subjected to torture, they're probably terrorists now. And rightly so. I'd hate America, too.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:05 AM 
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they're probably terrorists now. And rightly so. I'd hate America, too.
Good point.

Releasing the ones that are either totally innocent or we don't have enough evidence on to prosecute in an *actual* court is problematic, as Obama is finding. No countries want them. The question is - what to do with them? What I don't understand is if they are citizens of a respective country, say France -- why can't France just be forced to allow them back in? I mean, if they committed no crime that they were convicted of - don't some of those countries, at least the democracies, have an obligation to take those people back?


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:10 AM 
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I only caught a snippet or two of Obama's speech, but this line really jumped out at me:

"we're lowering our use of the states secrets privilege."

Bold. Faced. Lie.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:44 AM 
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joxur wrote:
Bold. Faced. Lie.

It's "bald," not bold. And you saying it doesn't make it so.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:44 AM 
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and what is your evidence to support this one?


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:57 AM 
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Careful Fribur, there are LINKS incoming, omg!

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:11 AM 
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I've read two so far, but I have to go to class to teach. So far, I've seen nothing that makes Obama's statement false. I see some examples of Obama using the state secrets privilege, sure, but I see nothing that indicates a trend toward using them MORE, which would then contradict his statement that they are trying to use them less.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:13 AM 
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I think Joxur is confused. "Lowering" does not mean "doing away with entirely." So while you'll still be able to cite instances where Obama or his administration are making use of the states secrets privilege, it doesn't mean he's a liar. You'd have to show that he's doing it just as much as Bush was.

Good luck on that one.

As an aside, you do realize you've listed a bunch of opinion pieces, all from the same author, as your "evidence," right? I just want to be sure you realize that's what you did.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:13 AM 
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Also lolgreenwald. The most unbiased source imaginable!


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:14 AM 
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Glenn Greenwald is the shit.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:15 AM 
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Greenwald is biased towards? The Constitution? Civil rights? Democracy? ???


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:19 AM 
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SurcamStances wrote:
Greenwald is biased towards? The Constitution? Civil rights? Democracy? ???

Just reading a few of those I could immediately tell that Greenwald is a left-leaning Democrat. So yes, he's biased.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:24 AM 
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http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... index.html

All of his posts cite numerous legal briefings and facts. Get your head out of your ass.

Quote:
I was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York. I am the author of two New York Times Bestselling books: "How Would a Patriot Act?" (May, 2006), a critique of the Bush administration's use of executive power, and "A Tragic Legacy" (June, 2007), which examines the Bush legacy. My most recent book, "Great American Hypocrites", examines the manipulative electoral tactics used by the GOP and propagated by the establishment press, and was released in April, 2008, by Random House/Crown.
He's biased towards constitutional law and his criticism of Obama validates his position because he's dished it out to both sides.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:35 AM 
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joxur wrote:
He's biased towards constitutional law and his criticism of Obama validates his position because he's dished it out to both sides.

I'm not entirely certain how to put this into words, but as simply as possible: he's biased not toward the law, but toward his interpretation of that law, which is plainly evidenced by the fact that he appears to feel that any kind of "state secret" is a violation of that law. So instead of linking to a moderate news site, or multiple news sites, with actual factual coverage of the issue, you link to one individual's opinion pieces on the topic and you want it to be your "evidence."

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:50 AM 
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Your point would apply to all human brings in that no one can ever truly be objective.

Furthermore, you don't:

1) Address any of the facts in the myriad of links I posted.
2) Recognize that each article from Glenn Greenwald cites numerous other sources, including legal briefings, "moderate news sites", etc. What's a moderate news site?
3) Refute anything that I've written or posted, or posted any evidence that Obama was telling the truth.

But here, I'll do your Google work for you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/us/10torture.html
From February, VERY early in his administration, is evidence that Obama is preserving the state secrets privilege. Certainly goes against the claim that it's being "reduced", don't you think?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white- ... 40909.html
Oh my, look, the Washington Post cites.. Glenn Greenwald.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... ts_cla.php
Look, a Senator is troubled by Obama's State Secrets claims. Must be a GOP senator, or one of those BIASED Democrats.

http://www.slate.com/id/2215818/
Hey, a noted constitutional lawyer with published works!


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:54 AM 
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A rational citizen, by definition, praises and supports political leaders only when they do the right thing (regardless of motive), and criticizes and opposes them when they don’t. It's just that simple. Cheerleading for someone because they're on "your team" is appropriate for a sporting event, not for political matters.
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He keeps it real, regardless. And over the years reading his blog before he moved to Salon, and after, he's shown to me he truly believes the above quote. Disagree with him? Cool. But to act like he's not a reasonable source is bullshit.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:26 AM 
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joxur wrote:
From February, VERY early in his administration, is evidence that Obama is preserving the state secrets privilege. Certainly goes against the claim that it's being "reduced", don't you think?

Nope. You still don't seem to understand what the words "less" or "reduce" mean. Again, they don't mean "do away with entirely." Of everything you've posted, not one article has shown that he is using the state secrets privilege as much as or more than Bush did.

Is he still using it? Of course he is. You're calling him a liar for saying that he's using it less, and you've yet to actually refute him on it.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:34 AM 
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Still more, heh.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html? ... d1f5e2&p=2

Quote:
10. State Secrets

The state secrets doctrine allows the government to prevent the disclosure of evidence in court based on its view that the disclosure would endanger national security. Candidate Obama criticized the Bush administration's use of this doctrine. But in at least three lawsuits growing out of Bush-era surveillance and rendition practices, the Obama Justice Department endorsed the same broad view of the state secrets privilege as the Bush administration. President Obama said last month that "the state secret doctrine should be modified" to make it a less "blunt instrument," and his lawyers are seeking ways to narrow the doctrine in some cases. But it is unclear how far this initiative will go, and in any event for now the Obama position is the Bush position.
There. I've given you ample evidence that it's not only continued, but been expanded on. Can you cite any evidence that it's declined, as Obama stated?


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:37 AM 
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Well, I count ummm... 7 different things you cited, although several of them appear to be the same thing. So let's just say 5.

Did Bush do more than 5?


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:24 AM 
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To me the argument's a wash really.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:14 AM 
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http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/30/court. ... index.html

Hmm. Can someone point out the part that shows the use being reduced? My reading skills suck!


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:52 AM 
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You are the one that called it a "bald faced lie." If you are going to make that accusation, you are the one that needs to provide the evidence. So far, as it has already been shown, you have failed to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:11 AM 
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Oh Fribur.. it's pointless arguing with people who change their opinions when "they're guy" is in the office :)


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:20 AM 
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My opinions have stayed the same since he took office. Show me otherwise.

You make all these accusations, and you aren't willing to back it up with evidence.

Now you have two-- the "bald faced lie" of Obama, and the statement that my opinions have changed since January. Let me know when you find something.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:28 AM 
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Why in the world would I do that? I've already supplied reams of information backing up my points, on this thread and several others, about state secrets. In threads where you and I actually get into anything like a substantive debate, you always, 100% of the time, bow out. What's the point? Your posts are limited to one-liners in pretty much everything but the gun control thread or when talking about yourself.

Even in this thread, you've rebutted none of the sources I've cited. Your debate antics are the equivalent of saying "so?" over and over. I gave plenty of evidence that minimally, invoking state secrets has continued apace, and several examples that it has been expanded upon.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:39 AM 
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None of the sources you cited rebut Obama's comment, so there's no reason for me to address them. You have not yet shown (as I and others have pointed out repeatedly) that Obama is not doing this less than Bush did. You have only shown that Obama has done it to some extent.

YOU called him a bald faced liar. That's a pretty serious accusation. You need to back it up. Until you do, there isn't much to discuss.

Since you didn't address it, are you taking back your other claim that I have changed my opinions since January?

As for the "one-liners" comment-- you'll get more than that when I feel like you've actually made some kind of point that makes sense. You can call that bowing out if you like-- I call it not wasting my time talking to a wall.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:50 AM 
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Quote:
You have only shown that Obama has done it to some extent.
And yet, that concession from you proves that Obama IS a liar. he claimed it was being reduced. It is not. I don't *need* to prove that he's done it more than Bush did, only that he hasn't reduced it. Which, according to you, I've done.

It's my opinion that he HAS expanded it. It's also the opinion of the most-cited constitutional lawyer on the subject - Glenn Greenwald. The best example of that is threatening to punish the UK if it reveals the details.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:00 AM 
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Quote:
And yet, that concession from you proves that Obama IS a liar. he claimed it was being reduced. It is not. I don't *need* to prove that he's done it more than Bush did, only that he hasn't reduced it. Which, according to you, I've done.


If I take 3 away from 5, have I reduced it? Does that mean I have none left?

Do you understand yet that pointing out that he has done it a few times does nothing to prove that he hasn't reduced it? Do you understand that 100 times is less than 200 times?


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:22 AM 
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If only there were a scoreboard comparing Bush and Obama on this *extremely quantifiable issue*. You seem to know of one - can you point it out for me?

YOU just said that I did a good job showing he is doing it as much as Bush. Now you say that he's doing it less. Which is it?


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:43 PM 
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Quote:
YOU just said that I did a good job showing he is doing it as much as Bush.


You misunderstood me I guess, since I have never said any such thing. I said that he has done it. That's it.

Go back and reread, and try to figure out where you went wrong. If you still think I said that, then I'm telling you now that I meant no such thing. I still await your evidence of the lie.

I also await your evidence of my ever-changing opinions since January, but perhaps I shouldn't hold my breath.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:03 PM 
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joxur wrote:
If only there were a scoreboard comparing Bush and Obama on this *extremely quantifiable issue*. You seem to know of one - can you point it out for me?

Actually, you seem to know of one yourself, since you insist that Obama is lying. Which means that you're somehow able to compare the number of times he's used it to the number of times Bush has used it. So either he's lying, and you have figures to back it up, or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and you're just drinking the Haterade.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:44 AM 
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joxur wrote:
If only there were a scoreboard comparing Bush and Obama on this *extremely quantifiable issue*. You seem to know of one - can you point it out for me?

That's the part I don't understand. He seems to get it here, that this isn't a quantifiable thing and that it's really just opinion. But he's so gung ho about it, it seems like he doesn't realize it.

For the record, I think Obama has used it as much or more than Bush. Haven't seen instances where he was using it less. But it's really a stupid argument going on up in here.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:08 AM 
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It's about right and wrong, pure and simple. We're arguing semantics on a hugely important civil liberties issue, and if you could simply open your eyes you might see it that way.

There's a new bill getting passed that Obama supports. In that bill, there is a provision called detainee photographic records protection.

Here's a link to the bill:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2 ... t0:eas:700

This bill circumvents the freedom of information act, a step that Bush never took, and allows the suppression of any photo the government deems appropriate in an 8 year period. The provision can be renewed indefinitely.

In layman's terms, they don't want any photos of detainee abuse coming out - ever. This is a cover up, pure and simple, with no expiration date, that would prevent anyone, including a court, from obtaining them. What an awful precedent. You should be concerned if the president you elected on the grounds that he was open and transparent is circumventing something called the "Freedom of Information Act". You should also ask yourself, after 8 years of expanded executive power, if this is a good precedent to establish.

What kind of a country would give its leader the power to suppress evidence of the state torturing people? Here's an editorial from the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02036.html

Furthermore, this is Obama continuing a trend of the Bush administration of retroactively changing a law when they don't feel like following it. Remember FISA Telecom Immunity? Remember the Military Commission Act? What's the point about having laws holding the government accountable if the government simply changes the law after wantonly violating it? Open government doesn't work on a case by case basis, it has to be open government in ALL cases, or it's not really open government.

Quote:
Sec. 1305. (a) Short Title- This section may be cited as the ‘Detainee Photographic Records Protection Act of 2009’. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(b) Definitions- In this section: CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) COVERED RECORD- The term ‘covered record’ means any record-- CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

1
(A) that is a photograph that was taken between September 11, 2001 and January 22, 2009 relating to the treatment of individuals engaged, captured, or detained after September 11, 2001, by the Armed Forces of the United States in operations outside of the United States; and CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) for which a certification by the Secretary of Defense under subsection (c) is in effect. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(2) PHOTOGRAPH- The term ‘photograph’ encompasses all photographic images, whether originals or copies, including still photographs, negatives, digital images, films, video tapes, and motion pictures. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(c) Certification- CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) IN GENERAL- For any photograph described under subsection (b)(1)(A), the Secretary of Defense shall certify, if the Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, determines that the disclosure of that photograph would endanger-- CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) citizens of the United States; or CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) members of the Armed Forces or employees of the United States Government deployed outside the United States. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(2) CERTIFICATION EXPIRATION- A certification submitted under paragraph (1) and a renewal of a certification submitted under paragraph (3) shall expire 3 years after the date on which the certification or renewal, as the case may be, is submitted to the President. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(3) CERTIFICATION RENEWAL- The Secretary of Defense may submit to the President-- CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(A) a renewal of a certification in accordance with paragraph (1) at any time; and CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(B) more than 1 renewal of a certification. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(4) CERTIFICATION RENEWAL- A timely notice of the Secretary’s certification shall be provided to Congress. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(d) Nondisclosure of Detainee Records- A covered record shall not be subject to-- CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(1) disclosure undersection 552 of title 5, United States Code (commonly referred to as the Freedom of Information Act); or CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(2) disclosure under any proceeding under that section. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(e) Nothing in this section shall be construed to preclude the voluntary disclosure of a covered record. CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

(f) Effective Date- This section shall take effect on the date of enactment of this Act and apply to any photograph created before, on, or after that date that is a covered record.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:45 AM 
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I don't think it's a problem of opening my eyes Jox. I think I have the same problem everyone else here has in that, we're just not as smart as you.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:58 AM 
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Quote:
It's about right and wrong, pure and simple. We're arguing semantics on a hugely important civil liberties issue, and if you could simply open your eyes you might see it that way.


You believe that we're "drinking the Koolaid," so you don't notice that yes, I am not happy with some of the things Obama is doing, including the things you bring up here. I, however, did not take the extra step of calling him a liar without evidence to back it up. That is ALL that I have had a problem with-- I have not been defending his use of state secrets priviledge or whatever at all.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:04 AM 
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SurcamStances wrote:
I don't think it's a problem of opening my eyes Jox. I think I have the same problem everyone else here has in that, we're just not as smart as you.
No, actually, I think it's a case of moral cowardice on your part and Fribur's part. you two more than any others on the board.

Go scroll back through the history of this board. Until the inauguration, you have started literally almost half of the posts in the Current Events board. At least, it seems that way. More than anyone else, to be sure. Full of fire and brimstone for the Bush administration.

How many have you posted since the inauguration? Two. One of which is asking if the new Eric Holder DOJ would hold Bush accountable for... Torture! The very same issue that you admit Obama is doing more than Bush to cover up! God, what fucking insanely huge irony.

Where's the outrage? You say and have said repeatedly you're as concerned as anyone about the violations of Obama's campaign promises, yet you are less than half as vocal as you ever were about it. You were on the rooftops singing for anyone to hear, and now you're as meek as all of the Bushies were back in the day. Here's a tip for you. Real change doesn't come about by simply voting in a new person. It's people like you, who become less vocal when "their guy" is in charge that make temporary crimes and lessening of government accountability change into permanent loss of rights.

If you had half the moral conviction you think you do, you'd be just as vocal and angry as you were under Bush. I don't care if you think Obama is right on everything else, but this issue demands just as much vociferous opposition as any others. Ten wrongs don't make this right.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:40 AM 
I schooled the old school.
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Quote:
No, actually, I think it's a case of moral cowardice on your part and Fribur's part. you two more than any others on the board.


Fuck you. Call this me bowing out again if you like, but I'm not interested in trying to talk to you anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:13 AM 
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Well joxur, you've seen me agreeing with you on this point. As far as posting less, I've honestly just found this place less interesting to discuss, mostly because your arrogant ass stomps all over any attempts for discussion. It was funny at first, but now it's just tired.

The fact that you have a hard on for Obama does not make you morally superior to me. The combination of everything that went on in the Bush admin yes, got me pretty fired up. I'm just not there with Obama. Some I agree with, some I don't, but there's not enough to disagree with to bring me here all pissed off like you are every day. Not sorry about it.

That said, you'd probably find people more willing to engage with you if you weren't:
A: So incredibly obtuse and unwilling to consider another viewpoint. I.E. Obama is not the anti-christ.

B: If you weren't so fucking incredibly arrogant about it, which is entirely unwarranted. You're not the smartest kid in the class guy.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:35 AM 
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Oh man, if you were in my position over the past 18 months, you'd be the same, heh. It didn't start out that way, but taking grenades in the trenches kind of shapes how you respond to the people throwing the grenades.

I wonder how you'd feel if you had been the one warning people that Obama was full of shit, had accusations of being racist thrown at you, and been proven right on at least some of the things. It's not a recipe for happy thoughts.

Take Fribur's well-communicated stance that if only we had the 60 votes in the senate, we could do something. Well, we've got it. Where's Fribur, holding his government accountable for NOT doing what he felt so strongly would be done?

Take your post about government accountability. Well, 6 months have passed, or damn near. Where are you, holding the government accountable for NOT doing what you felt so strongly should be done?

Sadly... Not only is your government NOT reversing what you felt so strongly should be reversed, they are strengthening Bush policies in many areas. That's what makes it so galling and frustrating to me. It was the two of you, along with a handful of others, who mocked me so arrogantly during the elections when I compared Obama to Bush. In terms of civil liberties, torture and government transparency.. who has been more right - you or me? You guys were made to look like fools. And instead of being angry at Obama, and doing something about it, you're lashing out at my "arrogance".

I haven't changed - at all. I was an asshole to people defending Bush on his awful track record on civil liberties, torture and government transparency, and I'm an asshole to the people supporting Obama when he does the same. The only thing that has changed are the people who switched sides when their party switched sides. I was an independent who voted Democratic in every election until this one, and let me assure you.. I am PROUD of my stance on this issue, because my passion for it has not changed one bit - it's increased, if anything.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:22 PM 
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Yeah, Jox, you've been on the high road this whole time. You've been a regular oracle of political events and a real watchdog keeping all those political bastards in check.

......or you're just an overzealous board warrior who is way too eager to be "right" and "smart".


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:35 PM 
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No one can claim the high road on the current events forum here... :)


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:39 PM 
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It is funny that Jox and I are for most issues on opposite sides but many of you have lumped what we post as one in the same.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:20 PM 
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I for one do not at all lump you two.


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:56 PM 
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Thank you Surcam, I think. :)


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:11 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Take Fribur's well-communicated stance that if only we had the 60 votes in the senate, we could do something. Well, we've got it. Where's Fribur, holding his government accountable for NOT doing what he felt so strongly would be done?

Part of the problem I have with your posts is that you include blatantly incorrect info as if it were true. Such as this. You know that there aren't yet 60 votes in the Senate, yet you state that there have been as if it were fact and you use this false information to attack someone. Very political of you. Unlike politicians, however, you're going to get called out on it: stop lying to make your points, Joxur. Either offer up truth and facts to support your position or just shut the fuck up.

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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:13 PM 
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Even if there were 60 votes and nothing gets done, how does that reflect poorly on Fribur?


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 Post subject: Re: More Koolaid please!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:20 PM 
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I'm in the camp of Obama more of the same amounts of worthless we've had for the last 8 years in most respects. The one thing I can say is that at least he's looking smart doing stupid shit, as opposed to Bush who made the dumb shit he was doing look even more retarded than it actually was. A bold statement.

But in all seriousness, I've seen dick in terms of "Change we can believe in". Shit, I'll take "Change HE can believe in." at this point.


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