Roosevelt must have been a pink commie bastard for paling around with Stalin, too.

i wasn't arguing i'm just postin

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So Obama is at the conference while Ortega is ranting and raving, calling the US the worst thing to ever happen in the Western Hemisphere. Then when Obama talks about the Ortega speech he says "I am glad he didn't blame me for it"

that's m'dawg

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My goodness, a *handshake* ANDDD a smile with Hugo Chavez. The man is obviously in league with the terrorists.

It must piss off people who suffer oppression in countries like Venezuela, Cuba and Saudi Arabia to see the American president backslapping their oppressors when they've always thought the US was the banner-carrier on freedom and human rights. I guess with our record of torture, why not embrace them? There's a difference between resetting our relations and embracing dictators.

I'm all for taking a different tone, but let's do so acknowledging both the good and bad of those countries.

Are you aware that Chavez is hugely popular with the general public in Venezuela?



Pretty much exactly what he's doing, if you take off the blinders.

Are you aware that Chavez wants to be president for 25 years and regularly suppresses opposition? Your point is what, exactly? That because he's popular, it makes suppressing opposing views unimportant?

Really? Like what, exactly?

Well, we're just another nation, not God and not a scolding parent. At a certain point - especially with nations that have a lot of power - we have to drop the macho "We won't talk to you!!!" act and realize that not everyone is going to be like us and that we can't just condemn them all for it.

We can disapprove of their actions and even try to coax change, but we can't just slam the door on nations like China. At least I don't think it'd be a great idea.

In other words, we need to stop being Lawful Stupid.

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My point was you made it sound like the Venezuelan public would hate us even more because we're "supporting their oppressor" when the fact is he is popular in his country. Just pointing out the general gap between your statement and reality I suppose.




I'm not getting into that game with you. Read any speech you like on any topic concerning the countries you mentioned, and you will see it. His is not unqualified support, and it has never been so. I'm thankful that finally after 8 years of insanity we have a president willing to be diplomatic. I would have thought you would be too, but again-- the blinders!

I wrote that it must piss off people who suffer oppression in those countries. Don't deliberately misinterpret my words, Fribster. Unless you're denying that those things are taking place in Venezuela? Or you disagree that the people who disagree politically have been beaten, tortured or silenced in some other way look at Obama grinning from ear to ear in dismay?

I know you won't.

Obama got pretty badly outmaneuvered by Chavez. Notice the book that he gave Obama went from an Amazon ranking of somewhere in the 54k's to #2 by Sunday. Funny, don't you think? A guy with a terrible human rights record, who has denounced the US, gave our president a book detailing how outside interests have exploited Latin America.. detect any kind of a theme, here? Who do you think won that exchange?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090419/ap_ ... vez_s_gift

Our country has a bad human rights record too. We just change leaders every few years so you can't pin it all on one guy.

Are you unhappy that the book is being sold? Is it bad to read it? I'm certainly interested in reading it too.

I'm confused as to why this is bad (again). I feel (again) like you take any action Obama does, and then look for the absolute worst way to interpret it.

If Obama found the cure for cancer, it feels like you would complain that he was putting doctors out of work and hurting the economy as a result.

Fribur I think your missing the point. Uncle Barry pals around and is buddy buddy with Chavez. A man who has done more to oppress his people, nationalize the Venezualan oil industry, and set himself up as El Jefe for life. While Obama celebrates and has his photo taken with the worst torturer in the western hemisphere. While he throws the CIA and the previous administration under the bus for Gitmo and the interrogation techniques used there.

Last I checked, our country hasn't jailed or expelled political dissenters or foreign human rights reporters lately.

P.S. Ask any citizen in a dictatorship and they'll say the love their leader.

I think you guys put far too much emphasis on a picture and a visit. It's miles away from real "partnership," and I can only hope you actually know it somewhere inside you.

And throwing the CIA under the bus? I could only wish. His refusal to prosecute them, however... seems pretty much the opposite of "throwing the CIA under the bus."

"Uncle Barry"

Wow. Now that's classy.

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Hope is the new black.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x915hk ... obama_news Look at how friendly they look in that video too, I bet they had a make out session right after, or more. I wonder whose the top. Or maybe they flip flop?

Only those most idiotic folks in Venezuela, under oppression or not, would view a simple handshake and smile as some kind of denial or ignorance on the part of the President of their problems. The same kind of uneducated folks that have a tough time grasping the concept of civility and/or speaking softly and carrying a big stick. There's simply no concrete association between simple mannerisms and ideological positions.

I don't think the folks in Venezuela really complained or made much about to the hand shake... It seems to be much more of a local reaction.

They may or may not have, not really the point. The question was what a casual, semi-intelligent observer's interpretation would be.

Yep, you could easily get similar poll numbers in Cuba.

Diplomacy is mostly symbolism and gestures. If you really think bowing and ear-splitting grins for people that spew and stir up anti-American sentiments DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING, then you know nothing about diplomacy. None of you cite any evidence, either historical or current, that foreign policy symbolism means nothing.

Nor have you provided any evidence that symbolism and gestures form what is most of diplomacy.

Symbolism and gestures play a role, but only within the *context* of which they are used. FDR put on a good face and met with Stalin, while also preparing for tensing relations with Russia in the future. Reagan met consistently with Gorbachev and he was quite friendly with him, all while the U.S. was tearing Russia apart economically, politically, and militarily.

Frankly, FDR and Reagan both could have frowned and been unapproachable during their entire confrontations with their respective enemies - it would have been looked upon as petty, probably, but plenty doable.

True, it's a question that is more profoundly put to the eye of the beholder. People can certainly interpret it as this grand sign of weakness, and that can hurt relations/diplomacy efforts in turn. But, given the historical context with innumerable leaders meeting under civil and calm circumstances while having a polite conversation, it should be evident to almost anyone that a display of civility is hardly indicative of any underlying policy in this day and age. Being civil is completely standard practice for almost anyone that wants to have serious discussions or relations(particularly foreign relations).

And yet, you cite no evidence that Obama is doing anything of the sort with Venezuela, Cuba, China or Russia. But then, it's a pattern for you. Didn't you post that Obama had accomplished something in Europe, then could cite nothing he accomplished?

What "proof" exactly do you think he could offer to that fact?

wikipedia

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Obama's doing well in the "speak nicely" part of his foreign policy and really that had to come first. Soon he needs to step up and start "Carrying a large stick" though to become credible on the world stage. I don't get the big uproar about a handshake and accepting a gift. It seems absolutely ridiculous to me. If he had given Chavez the cold shoulder it would have been called a 'flip-flop' so he was in a lose-lose.

It's fucking APRIL. You want 8 years of foreign policy to occur in 3 months? Geez, man, chill the fuck out.

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As noted, neither of the above examples were particularly evident behind the scenes with a possible exception to Reagan - and even then we did not know the full extent of what was actually going on until later.

My point is not that there is direct evidence that Obama is doing anything behind the scenes along those lines - it's that if history is any judge, engaging in civil discourse has almost never been an indicator of a diplomatic outcome. Complete lack of reading comprehension is becoming a disturbing pattern for you.

Wow, actually watching the video (rather than the snapshot) really makes me wonder why certain people are swarming around this.

I guess it's the folks that want Obama to fail, and saw a (flimsy) opportunity to point out a problem.

I only found out about that clip because of the Daily Show... sadly enough. ;P