US ship in stand-off with Somali pirates



Have a team of seals take the boat to rescue the captain, then have a warship BLOW EVERY PIRATE SHIP TO PIECES. These bastards will continue to act like this until they are forcibly dealt with. They only know one negotiating method and that is by brute force. They are diverting goods and relief supplies to other needed areas. The current method of dealing with these thugs is to not resist and let them have the ship. Screw that! Put a couple warships there and watch the amount of pirate attacks stop. It will come to a complete halt when one of the pirate ships is blown the hell up.

Oh hey yeah I was reading about this.

Check out this story.

U.S. military already prepared with battle plans for Somalia pirates, say intelligence sources
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_worl ... rates.html



I say let them. It would be a good message to send, kill a bunch of bad guys and be a great show of strength amidst all the apologies, bowing and scraping.

Kerry calls for pirate hearings as drama continues

What a dipwad. This isn't a congressional matter, this is a security matter. Sec. State or Pres need to tell NATO/UN that these pirates are stopping the flow of relief supplies to African and Middle Eastern Nations putting people's lives in immediate harms way. These actions are actions of rogue individuals and they will be stopped. US, British, and other warships have been in the area.

So far President Obama has been silent on the issue also VP Biden would not comment on it either.

The message is starting to become that you can muscle up against the US and not face any action. North Korea feels no threat from the US because they still move forward with testing their ICBMs and Iran feels no threat from the US either because they press forward with their nuclear weapons programs. Hell if we don't have enough collective backbone to stop a group of rogue pirates what sort of power do we have?

Can't the man just eat his waffle?

He can eat whatever he wants as long as he doesn't try to act like a big-shot by calling hearings. We don't need hearings we need action. What the hell is going to do, call the pirates to the hearing and ask them what they want?

What a waste of oxygen. And people wanted him to be president.

I don't see what the downside is; if ever the US wanted an opportunity to flex their muscle, who better to do it on than a group of pirates?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Would be a nice tie-in to the Pentagon budget cuts, which I believe actually add funding to spec ops.

War on Pirates?

Think that was the same attitude about Iraq...

Maybe the downside is killing people, not at war, without due process-- you know, something that many of us (I thought) would be not very happy with.



Man I'm going to sound like an ass, but these days now that I don't really think of myself as a Christian I feel like I can finally say it:

Aren't you a Christian? Is this what you think your Jesus would do? Are you showing the attitude and stance of someone who is trying to follow Jesus? Is this what it means to "Love your enemies?" or to "Do good to those that harm you?"

I am sorry for saying it because it's pretty personal, but if there was one thing that continually drove me away from Christianity, it was this disconnect you display. Give it to me in return (I probably deserve it) but remember to ask yourself... WWJD?

You are right my response is not very Christian. This is a failing of my Christian journey. I have always believed that there are forces in this world that you can not passively subdue and to stop them from causing more harm to others; one must use force to stop them.

The actions of these pirates are not very Christian either. They are hijacking ships without regard to what is on them and holding them for ransom. They don't care if they have to kill someone to take the ship or if the ship is full of relief supplies for starving and underprivileged nations.

You can't really turn the other cheek when dealing with forces that would take that opportunity to hit you again.

And it pisses me off that they are hijacking relief supplies. It seems to me that they are targeting the ships that would bring the most benefit to many people (and possibly even their own countrymen) and using it as negotiating chip. That is spineless. They are cowards. If they wanted to send a message they would not just attack these defenseless ships mostly under flags of much less powerful nations. If Korea or China were to have a ship taken like this in the area what would you think their reaction would be?

I am especially agitated in this instance because the world community has not been more aggressive to stop this. We (the world body) could have kept this from becoming the problem it is now by standing up to these pirates years ago. The US has not done anything because this is the first ship under the US flag to be attacked in 200 years (outside of war).

WWJD? I believe that he would have stopped this before it became the situation it is now.

Fair enough. I don't agree with you at all, but I'll let it be. It's one of those things that really gets to me, heh.

You think it's un Christian to kill the people responsible for it? The example given was blowing up a pirate ship that is actively attacking or trying to hijack another ship. It's bad to stop them with lethal force?

Send in the Ninjas!

My only concern about using military force on these pirates is that our military forces can't be everywhere.

My understanding from readings and TV / radio on this topic is that the piracy has, until now, been about money and goods and not about violence. i.e. they will shoot around a crew to subdue them, but not actually kill anyone.

For various reasons, merchant marines don't carry arms. The pirates know this. For that reason, they don't go into a ship takeover expecting to have to act with deadly force, and the piracy is, by and large, monetary but no one dies.

Basically, I would be worried about military action because the military can't be everywhere, but they'll be in lots of places. I think that would cause them to be more willing to treat ship crews violently, because they'll want to their raids to go as quickly as possible due to the increased threat of military action.

My understanding is that, in the absence of any sort of government in Somalia, these pirates are the only local economic engine of any significance. If your city of 30,000 or so survives on piracy, and has no other economic engine, killing a few dozen pirates isn't going to be much of a deterrent to future piracy. It is just going to make the pirates more desperate. And it is the ship crews that will likely pay the price.

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Hope is the new black.

Don't worry, Canadian navy is down there to save the day, didn't you see them showing those pirates up? We sent a helicopter out with a sign hanging from it, STOP.

That will teach them pirates a lesson!

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Jake Rivers - Senex Legio
Get off my Lawn alliance

*blinks*

okay.. that's it.. after the sky thread and now seeing this.. I am officially on the wrong board.. umm what did you people do with the Lanys board?

*hugs Frib, but secretly puts a sign on his back that says. "I am a pod person"*

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

You can't just blast all the pirate ships out of the water. They use ships that look like every one else's ships and they don't exactly fly the jolly roger.

It's ok Rosetta. I doubt he'll respond.

Uhhhhh, yes? Given turning the other cheek and loving thine enemy and all that?

You act as if "BLOW DA DARN TING UP" is the only option on the table. I, for one, am glad we have more sound and level-headed commanders and admirals in charge.

Let the insurance companies hire "Security Consultants" aka Blackwater which I believe currently has no large contracts. Arm them up and have them repel boarders. Kills off the pirates, protects the boat, and frees up our military.

If you've got a pirate ship bearing down on a civilian vessel being protected by a naval vessel, what else are you going to do?

1) That's not the only situation that happens.
2) Display of force with guns aimed and shots fired off the bow, OR kill only as many as you have to to force a retreat.

More importantly as Snarky mentioned, though, it's not always cut and dry which ships are pirate ships(Love the jolly roger mental image).

Not sure why I bother. You'll just give up and stop replying soon, eh?

Well, presumably, the pirate vessel won't be deterred, since they would have been approaching a civilian vessel with a *naval escort*. Unless you're really saying the pirates' mindset is really that the naval vessel will just let them board the ship..?

I will be seriously disappointed if he doesn't.

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

Which leaves our second option, kill as many as you have to to force a retreat. Or are you saying they wouldn't be deterred if you killed half of their men off without losing a single person? Again, depends on the situation. Pop a sniper up there and nail them off one by one until they back off. Even a relatively stupid group of folks would at least turn their ship in a different direction than rush straight to death.

Still leaves us with 1) Other situations. Not every pirate ship at sea is approaching a civilian vessel at every given time and location, so it's a little silly to point to one specific situation and justify the initial assertion that we should just blow em all up.

Of course I'll respond. Religious stuff almost always gets me to respond in some way.



Absolutely. I'd say Jesus is pretty clear on this one. Start with Matthew 5, and don't try to rationalize it away. Just actually apply the verses to this situation. I'll help you out-- perhaps focus on vs. 25 - 48.

After you are done reading them, sit back and think hard about the God you claim to have a personal relationship with (I mean evangelical Christians in general, you don't have to take this personally). Ask yourself what kind of person Jesus really wants you to be-- you know, the Jesus that's generally taught in your Sunday School classes. Ask yourself, given the verses above, why if you still think it's ok to kill in the circumstance given above, why you are willing to throw those verses out of the Bible but not others. Too inconvenient?

If Christianity is real at all, then the Christianity I see Jesus teaching is one that is far more radical, difficult, and life-altering than than the practical Jesus you are apparently worshipping that's ok with killing people who want to take your money.

You know, if you feel a need to have a higher power, but also the need to put an axe in someone's head from time to time, there are other religions out there.

Just sayin'.

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hehe you still hailing Odin?

The problem with your point of view in this context, Fribur, is that the example given was killing in self defense. If someone is intent on killing you, you must respond.

Christianity is not a pacifist religion. That's my point of view. I will not post further about religion, because frankly, I've already been down that road on the board and I know that virtually no one will do so honestly.

if you go back, you would see that I think I would be pretty honest.

With what you gave, anyway, I can say that I think the Christianity that Jesus teaches is pretty close to a pacifist religion, and there are a few denominations that agree with that.

As for this situation, I don't see how running out with a destroyer and "blowing them out of the water" is killing them in self-defense, unless you mean self defense of your money. Even that said, I believe these pirates generally haven't come on board with intent to kill-- only to hold the ships ransom for money.

I still can't imagine Jesus with an AK-47!

Frib is absolutely correct that Christianity as taught by Jesus was a pacifist religion. The old testament is a much different story.

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

Thou shall not murder. Some kills are murder and some are not. Some times God considers it a sin not to kill to protect the innocent.

So you say. Not what the New Testament says, but so you say.

Go ahead and ignore Matthew 5 if you need to . I couldn't, which is why I eventually went from a more typical protestant denomination to Quakerism many years ago.

Other Christians see it differently, and believe that even in defense killing isn't an option (IE: the Amish, etc.)

Honestly I think it's pretty clear what Jesus's stance was. Turn the other cheek, offer up the other...chastising Peter for using his sword...allowing himself to be put to death..and MANY more....it's pretty clear that Jesus held the 'under no circumstances' position.

People may disagree with that, or believe differently, but the only half ass justifications I've seen are when people take his words REALLY out of context, like his sword comments.

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LOL And yeah, in your case it's def. not a religion of turn the other cheek.

Carl Sagan wrote a great essay on the various 'rules' (Golden, steel, tin, etc.) and what's even more interesting is a scientific look at which one actually works best in a real world setting. The results may surprise you. I'll see if I can dig it up. Otherwise it's in his book 'Billions and Billions', which is well worth reading in and of itself.

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Most religions preach to do no harm.

Way to hijack this thread frib. Love ya buddy. So please tell me what should we do with these pirates? Can they be reasoned with? What can we give them so they won't put anyone else in harms way? How will we know that they won't ask for more when they or others try resume the hijacking?

We (again the world community) might not have to result to force, but the pirates must believe that if we do move warships in the area that they will be used. If they have no fear of retaliation then they won't stop. They showed that when navy ships started patrolling the last area the pirates were working they moved. We have to keep making it more difficult for them to operate. We have to make it more and more difficult for them to find safe harbors.

I say we just change the title of the thread to Blow the Pirates and turn this into a really fun thread about... blowing pirates.

(I know what you are thinking.. sick people..)

YO HO blow the man down.

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

you need a man Rosetta

Her man's deployed.

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Hope is the new black.

oooh wait, i got a link for that.

Somali women flocking to port in hope of marrying pirates
http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/09/s ... g-pirates/

and boy you can tell huh

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

HAHAHA classic

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

I'd throw in that paganism has its share of inconsistencies and whacked up ideas, but that is neither here nor there!!

I know, that is why I said that.

Well, I'm sure there's a teabagging event nearby that you could attend if you wanted to get rid of some pent up aggression!

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Hope is the new black.

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

Saw a sign the other day and thought of you, Tyral.

"Your deity was nailed to a tree. Mine carries a hammer. Questions?"

Jesus was the ultimate pacifist if you believe the parts of the bible that deal with him directly. At the end you have this guy that is supposedly god manifest in physical form on earth and he allows some guys to kill him rather then using his godly powers to protect himself. "Jesus" as he is thought of in America is rather bastardized.

Anyway back to pirates. Go after them on the land. Take out their leaders, it wont be hard to find them since they will be the ones that aren't poor.

I think the problem, and I could be wrong, is that the pirates arent violent for the most part. I know they are bringing guns and such to board the ships, but I havent heard of anyone being killed by them. I always hear that a ship and crew have been taken hostage and then eventually ransom is paid and they leave. I think for the most part these pirates are pirates because thats what theyve decided is the best career in their area. I think if pirates start dying left and right, some current hostages arent going to come out in one piece, and the next boat they board, theyll have itchy trigger fingers. Right now I think they are like that guy whos well down on his luck, no money left, no job, and decides the best thing he can do is rob a bank, he has no intention of hurting anyone, and might not even have wanted to bring a weapon, but knew it was the only way hed get money. All will be ok as long as someone doesnt start shooting at him. If that happens, then random innocents are going to get hurt.

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"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Yep. They aren't good guys by any means but they have not killed anyone that I'm aware of. It would be bad for their business. As it is right now they go in take the crews and get paid a few million to return them. If they start hurting people they will get shut down hard, its bad for their business and they know it.

I imagine what we will see out of this is small security contingents on board a few higher value ships. More ships with barbed wire or razor wire around their entry points. More ships patrolling the waters around that area. They can not escort every ship but the more ships they have patrolling the faster they can respond. The faster they respond the more likely they are to catch pirates that are still trying to board.

Ships will also have to stick closer to the established lanes. Even if the Navy did want to police the waters, it's about a million square miles. The pirates have pretty sophisticated radar and tracking systems; and they bribe dock workers to sneak on transponders in port. That's how they're catching ships in open water 300-500 miles off-shore.

The key to stopping the piracy is to remove the need for it. If everyone could feed and cloth their family, there would be far fewer people appying for hooks and eyepatches.

Not my usual conservative thought, but that's really the only way to stem the rise in international crime. If people have nothing to lose, they will take any risk for a gain (See WW2 and how Hitler came to power for an example). That isn't good for anyone.

Drajek, that's the kind of sentiment I would make! What's this world coming to...

Next thing you know I'll be eating oats. It's a crazy world out there!

letter of marque

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I'm all for making conditions much better for African nations, especially those in as poor a condition as Somalia... I would do it anyway whether it dropped the piracy or not. But, I do have my doubts it's going to stop this kind of piracy. They have their crime system in place, it's a lot of money at stake, and it's not that hard for them to do.

I tend to believe that giving adequate living conditions stops general crimes, like robbing stores, random violence on the streets, even cut down on the choice of bad lifestyles of crime that include drug-dealing and so forth. But piracy is almost akin to a white-collar crime... it takes a load of planning and there are HUGE benefits for doing it. They aren't exactly robbing the local grocer to feed their families(though, certainly originally that may have been the intention here... but they are now making much more than that). No doubt that the living conditions may have played a role into getting them involved in the first place, but I doubt that if you give it to them now it will eliminate the desire for them to do it given that they actually have a system in place.

Okay...... sigh.

Can you point to a single intervention by outsiders in a failed African state, ever, that has rehabilitated a nation and eliminated their need for acts like this?

In lieu of that, should we simply do nothing?

With the amount of money being gathered. And the fact that Somalia is a muslim nation that hates the U.S. would it be outside the realm of possibility that the ransoms are being funneled into terrorist groups?

Psh, everyone knows pirates buy ale and whores.

Seriously though the entire 'if they had monies to feed and clothe' argument is somewhat bullshit. Crime exists even among those who are not impoverished. It may provide a better justification for their crimes, but it is still a justification ultimately.

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