In the News, it seems like Obama is saying "I AM SORRY" a lot for US behavior in his overseas tour of Europe.

Personally, I think he is overdoing it. Trying to make international friends by bashing the country he is now in charge of.

Is it just Right Wing Media over focusing on stuff that should not matter? I dunno, lets discuss it.

An example:

The US all but ignored the rest of the world during the previous administration, seems he's doing a good job of making amends, unless of course you agreed with how Bush handled international relations.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Bush sucked.
But, going to the other end of the spectrum is just as bad.
Going out and representing US, and turning totally belly up, that is not a way to gain respect.

No.

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Hope is the new black.

We've got a lot to apologize for. Most of the world hates us, and doesn't want to work with us. Just like dealing with kids, you have to be firm and fair and admit when you fuck up. The US has fucked up the past 8 years in astronomical proportions, and he's making amends the right way.

Right away, but, the RIGHT way?

I think there's a difference between bashing your own country and representing it with humility and understanding. IMO, he's definitely on the latter end here. In most of his rhetoric, he has not only acknowledged American mistakes but also pointed out problems that other countries have added to - such as when he talked of the distaste Americans have had for Europeans in recent years, he also pointed out that certain Europeans also have a strong anti-American sentiment - his point was that both have to stop.

For too long we have had Presidents that are completely unapologetic in every action that both they and the American people partake in. It's refreshing to say the least.

Trust me, after a year abroad, nothing pisses me off more than an "American Apologist". I seriously got to a point where I wanted to just punch them when they'd start spouting off.

Obama isn't on that track.

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Obama has no right or reason to apologize for the perception we project. I think it is a weak and stupid move.

I get that we want to build bridges, but there are better ways to do it than saying WE SUCK BE OUR FRIEND.

Terrible. Really disappointing.

Been a while since I've been out of country, so I dunno how bad it is.

I'd imagine in some areas though... the conversation might take a turn for: "Hello, I'm an American. HOLD ON DON'T PUNCH ME IN THE FACE YET, I have some misgivings about my country too." I can only imagine in some countries in certain pockets it might take some of that, to a lesser extreme, just to get accepted into the culture heh.

99% of the people that would give you that look when you'd identify yourself as from the US were from a country that has a human rights violation list so long it makes our recent issues look like Sesame Street, but heaven forbid you point that out to them. No, it is much easier for them to point their critical glances outwards.

We're not saints, but at least we try to clean our own house.

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I think there's some apologizing that needs to be done for the way we've conducted ourselves the past few years. However, there's a limit, and he's about reached it. If the President can't find a way to bridge the gaps between the U.S. and other nations other than saying "I'm sorry" a dozen times, then we have an issue.

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Obama's just saying "Our bad, we fucked up. Moving on..."

Obama's taking Europe by storm. And what he misses, Michelle gets.

Option 2 and 3 are basically the same damn thing.

The option missing is "He's not being apologetic." The entire premise of the question is flawed.

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Hope is the new black.

I changed Option 2 to He's not being apologetic. It was Not being TOO apologetic before, so, that was the closest one to it.

I have mixed feelings on it.

But.. don't we have some slavery reparations people on this thread? Maybe we could staff a new Department of Apology.

What's up with this, BTW?

Who cares? aww crap I forgot who I'm talking to.

I bet the bow signifies Obama's future plans to give over our entire country to the Saudi's. Soon we will all be learning Arabic in our schools.

Fribur!

How many rounds are you going to go this time before bowing out? I'd get into a discussion with you about the wisdom of the world's most powerful person bowing to anyone, but is there a point?

No, I'm not going to argue about a bow. It's a freaking bow. It makes no difference in policy making. It doesn't matter, except to people going out of their way to look for endless reasons to hate him.

Shall I keep the kids gloves on, then? Give me an advance warning before you throw your hands up in the air and leave the thread so that I can save myself some typing.

Here's a link to human rights violations in Saudi Arabia as a reminder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... udi_Arabia

And here's some historical perspective in 1994 when Clinton did it in the past.

THE WORLD; The President's Inclination: No, It Wasn't a Bow-Bow
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/19/weeki ... w-bow.html



Hell, at least it's Japanese custom to bow.

Wow.

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

I hope Obama doesn't give him an IPod! That would be a HORRIBLE!

No, Americans are expected to accord respect to the OFFICE of foreigners, etc. as private citizens. Like you take your fucking hat off for the civil worker in another land not out of respect for him/her as an individual, but respect to his or her office. Same for heads of state, etc. though we do not have to act as their subjects do. And you can always refuse even basic respect and pay whatever consequences you'd pay in their land. Or don't go.

But the American President IS THE EQUAL of any King, Queen or person in the world. AS such, the only things they should do would be as one equal to another. If they would bow to an equal, it's acceptable to bow. No more, no less.

He shouldn't be doing anything other than a greeting among equals and it's fucking embarassing otherwise and whoever handles his protocol briefings should be fired.

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I just think it's funny that we have this notion that bowing in front of someone is this sign of weakness or subservience, and in Japan and a few other countries it's nearly the equivalent of a handshake. I think it might say something about our insecurity, if anything.. or at the very least how hesitent we are to be humble.

Course, context is everything. At a meeting of equals, no one intelligent is going to assume that Obama has a hidden message or a conspiracy in the making with his bow.

Politically, it was a gaffe for no other reason than because it is not culturally applicable in SA. Ideally though, I wouldn't mind seeing more "bows" in ours and other cultures. I really like the gesture in terms of the humility it presents. I think the President's move here though was, unfortunately, unintentional and without a deeper thought of it.

Apparently "speaking softly and carrying a big stick" are mutually exclusive concepts to some folks =/ Next we're going to be told that the President shouldn't be walking into an office with a foreign leader without an M16 on hand, lest he appear weak and apologetic.

Did you watch the video even Venen? It wasn't a version of a handshake or a greeting amongst equals. He clearly bowed to a king. As an individual...whatever. As President, fuck no.

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The 12-second one? Uh, yea? =p It looked like an average bow to me, though probably a bit lower and longer than normal. That could easily be chalked up to inexperience, as several Presidents have made that near-identical mistake in form. It seems to become quicker and less pronounced when people do it more often. The significance of bowing before a monarch is more an arbitrary cultural norm these days than anything else, I'm pretty sure some heads won't be cut off if Obama decides not to bow. And as you said, if you view it as a gesture that is done among equals, it's entirely acceptable to bow. I'd prefer some consistency and if Obama did it more often, but it's still much ado about nothing.

It's not as if he has thrown his power away and handed over the nuke codes to the king in reverence. Talking softly does not imply that you have also handed over the stick, and that's a little more important in my book than a few abstract social gestures =)

Americans tend to act weird around royalty because we don't have any. It looks bad but I don't see it anything other then a gaffe.

We as a nation have a lot of complexes that are a result of how our nation came into being, I think.

An inherent distrust of authority figures, a huge sense of entitlement and brattiness, the idea that we can just brute force our way into anything we want, etc etc.

The White House is apparently saying it wasn't a bow, lol, I think it's fairly clear it was a bow though:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... Saudi.html

But yeah, there's this fairly silly tradition that we don't bow to monarchs because of the historical implications of our revolution. Just seems a little ridiculous to me, we should be secure enough with the knowledge that we have a free form of government and that we explicitly retain our sovereignty(as well as our clear, presented resistance to any monarchy brand of government) in both law and practice.

I'd still chalk it up to the unfortunate western interpretation of the bow =)

Hey, at least the right finally has a valid thing to bitch about. Sort of unimportant, but, more valid than whatever else they currently bitch about. ;P

I think he was just being polite and letting the Saudi king not feel like he had to look up at him. You see that shit? Obama is like a foot taller than the rest of them.

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Tall man being polite, eh? This video is amusing. I guess the queen is taller than she looks.

I was kidding. I hadn't even seen the video, but now that I have, that's not much of a bow. It looks almost like he's picking something up off the floor.

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It's almost like there's some on the job training going on, eh?

I'd certainly hope so. Formalisms and cultural norms aren't exactly an easy thing to grasp right off the bat. Using every kind of formal and humble gesture you can muster in a meeting of foreign dignitaries as President? Will happen. Day to day life in the U.S.? Not so much.

Frankly, I'd have been more ticked if he had done a huge, gracious bow in front of our allies and then a tiny nod to a rather critical faction in the Middle East that we're trying to find common ground with(and perhaps pull them towards our way of thinking as opposed to their current mess of human rights there).

Well duh, Tarot already mentioned the job in the thread if I hadn't already known before. It's called sarcasm in response to your sarcasm =)

There is plenty valid to bitch about, this is minor in comparison but still an embarrassing gaff. In my opinion his entire tour of Europe was one big gaff after another and shows his lack of experience with foreign matters (wasn't Biden suppose to be schooling him on this stuff? Oh wait... Obama gaffs less then Biden so I guess it could be worse)

He spent all that time apologizing and calling us arrogant and got nothing for it. I suppose the PR of it is good (and that is a matter of opinion) but when it comes to help with the war on terror.. umm opps I mean the overseas contingency operation.. He got nothing done and when it comes to fiscal matters he got.... nothing accomplished

Frankly though when it comes to the issues to bitch about this is the least of it and almost not worth really arguing about.

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

I didn't say it was an important issue, just, maybe the most valid of the ones the right is currently bitching about. As in... they don't have to twist the truth to make it look bad, it is bad. But... it is stupid. ;P

I was mostly being silly though.

Something that bugs me about the whole, "He called us arrogant" thing is that, he also pointed out how sometimes Europe doesn't appreciate the good America does. He was being pretty equal to both sides. And he wasn't lying either, we are an arrogant nation, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

my point was more he got nothing for it

If you are going to get on your knees and suck a dick you might as well get the hooker pay on the way out the door.

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"My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre and that I am therefore excused from saving universes."

Talking to people like you and me about the things people like you and me can do to make the world a lil bit better should not have any expectations to it, other than hoping for people to get a clue. It was a good thing to say, and yeah, we are arrogant, and yeah, Europe can be unfair with their ant-Americanism, which I find a bit worse than being arrogant personally. ;P

(aside)

I wonder which bow happened first, time wise. My first instinct is that the arab guy bow happened first and the second looks like Obama was told, "dude, no need to be that dramatic when bowing". But who knows.

(/aside)

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Backseat Presidency.

Were you hoping for a check in the mail..?

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark