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 Post subject: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:24 AM 
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Obama recently announced he would be sending an additional 5,000 troops to Afghanistan, a further commitment above and beyond the 17,000 troops he announced a while back.

5 years ago, I would have supported this. In 2009, I wonder if we're trying to use military power to promote democracy - something that has cost us far more than we'd ever expected in Iraq, with mixed, if not negative, results.

With our economic troubles, a permanent commitment of troops to Iraq, and countries like Russia, North Korea and China testing the waters against us, I can't help but think doubling down in a country that successfully repelled the British and Soviets is a huge mistake.

When we started the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, we had a strong economy, support from our allies and a military that wasn't crumbling from constant use - equipment and people. Now, we have none of those things.

What's victory, in Afghanistan?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:30 AM 
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Well, it depends on what the goal is.

The British and Soviets were there to take over. I don't believe that is our intention.

Our goals include dismantling the Taliban and eliminating extremists in the secluded mountains between Pakistan and Afghanistan. While you can't force people to think differently, you definitely can eradicate a lot of the really bad people.

I just hope, unlike the current mess we're in, that we go in with a list of goals and an exit strategy for when those goals are met.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:37 AM 
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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:42 AM 
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Did you listen to the whole speech jox? The increase in troops was only one part of the new strategy.

I would have been for this 5 years ago, and I'm definitely still for it. The part that's heartening for me, is the renewed emphasis on hearts and minds. And not just verbal emphasis, but putting our money where our mouth is. I think it was 1.5 billion for schools etc, with benchmarks attached.

I have always, always, always argued that this is where we were attacked from, and this is where we should be, not Iraq. I'm happy to see the renewed focus.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:43 AM 
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Ok, I can accept that as a good goal. I'm not sure if that's the real goal or not, but let's go with that, because that's the only reason I think we should be there.

Re: The taliban.. how do you dissolve a movement, founded on mostly religious ideals? It's not like Saddam's government, just hunt down the bad guys like Chemical Ali and Saddam's sons, and bam, you're done. We can kill every member of the current Taliban, but won't more just spring up? Even if we completely eradicate the political body known as the Taliban... what will spring up in the void created?

I firmly believe that the biggest reason Iraq turned into such a mess was unrealistic goals. We, apparently literally, thought a utopian paradise would spring up from the ground after our quick invasion, that people would "welcome us with open arms". But doesn't increasing troop presence with no stated, overarching goals strike you as a similar move? What are the longterm plans for infrastructure and security? And can we afford that?

It brings me back to the story that ran a while ago that our mission in Iraq was a cause célèbre for Islamic extremists. I think a longterm military occupation, which is what we're going to get into, will just be another one.

Having said that, I think the predator strikes we've been doing in and around Pakistan are absolutely the most effective military tactic we've used to combat terrorism.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:47 AM 
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Ok, one (maybe two) more things:

- The fact that Rumsfeld isn't in charge is a huge boost and might make the difference alone.

- We've had commanders on the ground for some time, and presumably, they have an idea of exactly how to use force in that country to get results. We'll see, though. Afghanistan may be a huge, prideful folly.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:53 AM 
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There's not enough government in Afghanistan to stablize it, but an increased military presence there would take a lot of money out of the Taliban's coffers.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:33 AM 
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Comparisons to the British and Soviet involvements in Afghanistan are so bad they aren't even funny. By that logic I should be able to reach back to Genghis Khan for evidence that a rugged mountainous region is conquerable. Technology makes the battlefield different in almost every way, as do both strategic lessons learned from the rather obvious blunders of both the Soviets and the British... as well as the victory conditions already pointed out.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:53 AM 
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I don't think its possible to win in Afghanistan, the most we can hope to achieve is to get the Afghan people in good enough shape to police the taliban on there own.

Canada has the highest ratio of casualties of any country right now on a per capita bases because of the fight in Afghanistan. That and the huge amounts of cash we keep injecting into that countries infrastructure is costing Canadians big time, and I would be glad to see this come to an end very soon, as it has been going on for much to long.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:56 PM 
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Its a shit hole of a country and we are helping them to 'rebuild'. In reality anything we help them build will be leagues ahead of anything they already had and will hopefully improve their way of life enough that extremism will lose its foothold. In the mean time we have troops there to spring on any extremists that show their heads.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:52 AM 
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Rebuilding just seems like such a fairytale to me. Or are we going to "rebuild" a new way for them to make more money than they do with drugs? This isn't Iraq, with billions in oil.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:56 PM 
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As much as I hate to say it, it is futile to stay in Afghanistan. The only way to eradicate religious extremists is to elimiate an entire area's popluation with warheads. Killing one here or a dozen there will simply cause more to take up a gun and fight the Great Satan that they see America as.

That, and Pakistan is totally preventing us from making any progress by not letting us pursue these fuckers on their turf. They come across the border, shoot some shit at us, and retreat right back to the sanctuary that Pakistan provides. If anything, I say we tell Pakistan to go fuck itself and simply go after everyone in that country that puts up any resistance. It's the only way we are going to make any progress...and the only way to get to Bin Laden.

Otherwise, fuck it...we're not going to do any more good there. We're not there to conquer; just to defeat al Qaeda. We'll never defeat an idea or a holy struggle because for every one of them that we kill a son learns to hate us and takes his father's place. All we can do is be more protective of our our country and be more aware of who steps foot on our soil. That big ol' pond that separates us from the Middle East can only do so much...we need better homeland security and less foreign military action.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:58 AM 
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I didn't wanna make another thread for this because it doesn't really warrant it, and since this is about military matters, check this out:

Report: Chinese Develop Special "Kill Weapon" to Destroy U.S. Aircraft Carriers
https://www.usni.org/forthemedia/ChineseKillWeapon.asp


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:22 PM 
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Quote:
Chinese Develop Special "Kill Weapon"


Hm, guess it's different from all those non-kill-weapons that most military organizations develop.

And really, why is it that when some other nation makes a new weapon we act like it's all sinister when we have the most advanced military in the world?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:35 PM 
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Quote:
Hm, guess it's different from all those non-kill-weapons that most military organizations develop.

And really, why is it that when some other nation makes a new weapon we act like it's all sinister when we have the most advanced military in the world?

The term "Kill" in this phrase refers to a single device (in this case, a ballistic missile) designed to destroy a specific class of target without fear of reprisal or defenses. I don't know if you remember the phrase "Kinetic Kill Vehicle" - Those were weapons deployed to render satellites inoperable with a single attack.

In Champions terms, it would be a NND AP AE Killing Attack (Ships).


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:28 AM 
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I wonder how all the "I'm against any war." people feel now that Obama has basically said we will be in Afghanistan for the duration. I was under the impression they expected him to end all US involvement in conflicts.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:40 AM 
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BobolinkWareagle wrote:
I was under the impression they expected him to end all US involvement in conflicts.

Then you weren't paying attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:41 AM 
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or "they" weren't, at least one of the two.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:44 AM 
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Seeing as he stated repeatedly on the campaign trail that he intended to draw down in Iraq and reinforce in Afganistan, any surprise that he's followed through is a result of ignorance.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:16 PM 
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Whoa..

SCOTS SNIPER KILLS TALIBAN LEADER WITH LONGEST SHOT
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/vie ... gest-shot/

Quote:
But Cpl Reynolds, of Dalgety Bay, in Fife, together with his spotter Lance Corporal David Hatton, worked out different factors such as wind speed and the trajectory of the bullet to hit the target. Musa, who was more than 1,500 metres away, was taken out with a single shot to the chest.

Cpl Reynolds, who has killed 32 Taliban fighters, said: “I was quite proud of that shot. It is the longest recorded kill in Afghanistan. I am going to use that fact as a chat-up line in the pub when I get back home.”


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:25 PM 
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AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!!


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:02 PM 
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Longest recorded UK military kill there that is. Canadian guy did it from 2430m in Afghanistan as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:35 PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:40 PM 
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Quote:
I wonder how all the "I'm against any war." people feel now that Obama has basically said we will be in Afghanistan for the duration. I was under the impression they expected him to end all US involvement in conflicts.


lol what


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:09 AM 
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There's a miracle leap in those sentences. I'd like to know how you made it, but I'm pretty sure I know already.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:55 PM 
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It is amazing how many times this administration has used the "blame the previous guy" excuse for everything. They are continuing that practice with Afghanistan. (full story here)
Quote:
U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said any recommendation for more forces would have to address his concerns that the foreign military presence in Afghanistan could become too large and be seen by Afghans as a hostile occupying force.

"Clearly, I want to address those issues and we will have to look at the availability of forces, we'll have to look at costs. There are a lot of different things that we'll have to look at," he told reporters.

"While there's a lot of gloom and doom going around ... I think we have some assets in place and some developments that hold promise," Gates said on a visit to a Lockheed Martin factory building F-35 fighter jets in Fort Worth, Texas.

McChrystal has 103,000 troops under his command, including 63,000 Americans, half of whom arrived this year as part of an escalation strategy begun under President George W. Bush and ramped up under his successor, Barack Obama. The Western force is set to rise to 110,000, including 68,000 Americans by year's end.

TROOP INCREASE DIFFICULT

A further increase could be politically difficult for Obama, with members of his Democratic Party increasingly uneasy about the war and congressional elections due next year.

The White House sought on Monday to pin the blame for the grave state of the war in Afghanistan on the Bush administration, which made Iraq its top military priority.

"This was underresourced, underfunded, undermanned and ignored for years," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said.


I can't recall a President in my lifetime laying blame at his predecessor's feet for so many things. We all know that things were not good when he took office, but he was elected to lead and change things not cry about how bad everything was when he got it. Be a leader, not a complainer -- we have enough complainers in the world (elected and otherwise)


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:03 PM 
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We need to get out of Afghanistan. I haven't seen anything in the past 6 months that makes me feel like we can or will win, or even what "win" is.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:19 PM 
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Quote:
"This was underresourced, underfunded, undermanned and ignored for years," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said.


Is this statement true? (Pretty sure it is, by the way. Rhetorical question?)

If so, why would he be wrong in placing blame where it belongs?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:43 PM 
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The reason all of that is true is because we shifted our focus to Iraq. Democrats weren't in power, but damn near all of them voted for the war in Iraq, and have done nothing since to put any stop to it. 2 years of a Dem majority in Congress has done nothing to either bring our troops home from Iraq or "fix" Afghanistan.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:58 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Quote:
"This was underresourced, underfunded, undermanned and ignored for years," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said.


Is this statement true? (Pretty sure it is, by the way. Rhetorical question?)

If so, why would he be wrong in placing blame where it belongs?


Leadership is not placing blame but implementing solutions.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:26 PM 
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Is that why you are blaming Obama for everything?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:11 PM 
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Quote:
Leadership is not placing blame but implementing solutions.


Aw, what a cute little quote from My First Motivational Seminar.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:17 AM 
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Boy this would have been a great idea to put at the end of Charlie Wilson's War.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:27 PM 
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I can't wait to play this in Call of Duty 17.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:39 AM 
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Quote:
Is that why you are blaming Obama for everything?


You mean like you did Bush?

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:29 AM 
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Go read again the last few years of posts I've made... I love it when you guys paint me with your stereotype brushes.

And for the record, the war on Iraq WAS Bush's fault. I will always lay it at his feet. If anyone else was president at the time, we would not be in Iraq today.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:59 AM 
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I don't blame Bush for the Iraq war, because I think it came from a place of sincere desire to do good, but I do blame him for us still being there in the wake of our failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:13 AM 
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Only reason people think of the Iraq War as a failure is because major media outlets have labeled it as such. It's never been reported as to how the U.S. Army has built schools or helped restore infrastructure. Of course Iraq isn't perfect and that is just going to take some time. Something we as Americans have little of given our culture of immediacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:09 AM 
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Givin won the thread, thanks all.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:23 AM 
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Wakkagud wrote:
Only reason people think of the Iraq War as a failure is because major media outlets have labeled it as such.


Yeah it's really because of the media we're still there after mission accomplished 6 years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:55 AM 
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Afghanistan: Total War, where you invade Afghanistan as either Alexander the Great, the British, the Soviets or the Americans - but always lose!


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:19 AM 
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Pretty disappointed with the action Obama has taken. I watched the speech and I'm still not sure what we're trying to achieve. Bush lite.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:02 AM 
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It was a typical Obama speech: full of broad generalizations and imagery but extremely light on specifics.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:49 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
It was a typical presidential speech: full of broad generalizations and imagery but extremely light on specifics.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:51 AM 
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Quote:
typical president


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:09 PM 
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joxur wrote:
typical


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:07 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Afghanistan: Total War, where you invade Afghanistan as either Alexander the Great, the British, the Soviets or the Americans - but always lose!


Alexander the Great didn't lose there. Greek culture lived on in the area centuries afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:26 PM 
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I know you are going to assume I'm just being contrary, but I really am stumped. What exactly are the specifics you wish there should be? If he had offered too many specifics, would you be accusing him of giving our plans to the enemy? What would it take for you to be happy with Obama?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:01 PM 
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What's it going to take for an admitted pacifist to criticize a decision to escalate an 8 year war?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:02 AM 
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For me, I would have liked to have heard him even mention the supposed 'benchmarks' the Afghan government is supposed to meet that we heard about before the speech; what are they and what are the consequences if they fail to meet them? No, I didn't want or expect to hear anything about how the new forces will be used. That would be ridiculous.

Some concrete goals beyond those stated and largely achieved by Bush (disrupting the Al Qaeda safe havens & taking down the Taliban government that supported those safe havens) would also have been nice. It seems to me that he plans to reachieve those goals and then withdraw; which sounds incredibly like what we already did. To a lesser degree some mention of women's rights would have been nice but I can understand why he decided that their fate was not important to US goals in the region; I don't have to like that though.

Also, how in the hell we are going to pay for it; he doesn't like Obey's plan so what does he like? We cannot continue down the road of 'it's necessary so we aren't going to worry about the cost'. Our economic health as a country is a signicant part of our national security. He needs to address it with even something as small as acknowledgement.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:50 AM 
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Sounds similar to Bush.
Quote:
ABC News: "While tomorrow night's speech will have many audiences ... a senior administration official tells ABC News one key message will resonate with all of them: 'The era of the blank check for President Karzai is over. . . The president will talk about, this not being 'an open ended commitment'..."

Bush:
Quote:
I have made it clear to the Prime Minister and Iraq's other leaders that America's commitment is not open-ended. If the Iraqi government does not follow through on its promises, it will lose the support of the American people -- and it will lose the support of the Iraqi people. Now is the time to act.


The Afghan leader has heard our ultimatum and understands it ("The president was described as heartened to hear that Karzai spent much of his inaugural address discussing corruption").

Bush:
Quote:
The Prime Minister understands this. Here is what he told his people just last week: "The Baghdad security plan will not provide a safe haven for any outlaws, regardless of their sectarian or political affiliation."


The Afghan government will have strict benchmarks they must meet (Gibbs: "the new strategy will include many of the same benchmarks, but with ramifications to US support to Karzai and his government if they are not met").

Bush:
Quote:
A successful strategy for Iraq goes beyond military operations. Ordinary Iraqi citizens must see that military operations are accompanied by visible improvements in their neighborhoods and communities. So America will hold the Iraqi government to the benchmarks it has announced.


We're going to ensure that Afghan troops are trained to provide the security which the country needs (Gibbs: "the goal and the purpose of the strategy is to train an Afghan national security force, comprised of an Afghan national army and a police that can fight an unpopular insurgency in Afghanistan so that we can then transfer that security responsibility appropriately back to the Afghans").

Bush:
Quote:
Our troops will have a well-defined mission: To help Iraqis clear and secure neighborhoods, to help them protect the local population, and to help ensure that the Iraqi forces left behind are capable of providing the security that Baghdad needs. . . . We will help the Iraqis build a larger and better-equipped army -- and we will accelerate the training of Iraqi forces, which remains the essential U.S. security mission in Iraq.


We're going to have a strategy based on funding and strengthening local leaders ("much of it will be targeted at local governments at the province and district level, and at specific ministries, such as those devoted to Afghan security").

Bush:
Quote:
We will give our commanders and civilians greater flexibility to spend funds for economic assistance. We will double the number of provincial reconstruction teams. These teams bring together military and civilian experts to help local Iraqi communities pursue reconciliation, strengthen moderates, and speed the transition to Iraqi self reliance.


If we don't escalate, Al Qaeda will get us ("The focus of the new strategy, sources say, will be going after al Qaeda and affiliated extremists").

Bush:
Quote:
As we make these changes, we will continue to pursue al Qaeda and foreign fighters. Al Qaeda is still active in Iraq. Its home base is Anbar Province. Al Qaeda has helped make Anbar the most violent area of Iraq outside the capital. A captured al Qaeda document describes the terrorists' plan to infiltrate and seize control of the province. This would bring al Qaeda closer to its goals of taking down Iraq's democracy, building a radical Islamic empire and launching new attacks on the United States at home and abroad.


We must fulfill our moral responsibility to stand with the Afghan people.

Bush:
Quote:
From Afghanistan to Lebanon to the Palestinian Territories, millions of ordinary people are sick of the violence and want a future of peace and opportunity for their children. And they are looking at Iraq. They want to know: Will America withdraw and yield the future of that country to the extremists -- or will we stand with the Iraqis who have made the choice for freedom?

The surge in Iraq was successful, in terms of mitigating violence. But what's next in Iraq? There's still nothing good on the horizon.

I have little doubt that the surge in Afghanistan will calm the waters, but what's next? What is victory?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:23 AM 
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Victory would surely be a stable democracy that can police itself and its people without the need for US/UN aid, while becoming an integral part of the world economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:45 AM 
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Khaless wrote:
Victory would surely be a stable democracy that can police itself and its people without the need for US/UN aid, while becoming an integral part of the world economy.


Khaless, that is the definition of nationbuilding which Obama explicitly rejected and certainly had to because any nationbuilding venture would take by far more than 18 months-

Quote:
Indeed, some call for a more dramatic and open-ended escalation of our war effort -- one that would commit us to a nation building project of up to a decade. I reject this course because it sets goals that are beyond what we can achieve at a reasonable cost, and what we need to achieve to secure our interests


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:51 AM 
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Quote:
Victory would surely be a stable democracy that can police itself and its people without the need for US/UN aid, while becoming an integral part of the world economy.
In Afghanistan? lol


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:00 AM 
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joxur wrote:
Quote:
Victory would surely be a stable democracy that can police itself and its people without the need for US/UN aid, while becoming an integral part of the world economy.
In Afghanistan? lol


Well the world needs opiates. They don't have to be used for illegal means.

As for it being nation building, I don't think the US/UK/UN needs to be there to complete the job. Just put the building blocks in place. Yes that's obviously what they are trying to do but the question was "what is victory" I didn't realise it was dependent on what Obama said in his speech.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:03 AM 
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Do you think it's achievable? That's a two-part question. Is it achievable, at all, under any circumstances, with any force, even under the best conditions, in a 5-10 year timeframe.

Then, do you think it is achievable by sending 30,000 more troops given our recent history in the region?


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:03 AM 
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I would assume that victory was defined by the person who makes the decisions on assets both military and non-military and that's Obama. So, yes his words in the speech are definitive. Unless you're saying tthat Obama is not trying for victory...


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:44 AM 
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Quote:
integral part of the world economy.


what does Afghanistan have that the world needs or would need?

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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:21 PM 
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The backdoor to oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Afghanistan
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:49 PM 
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You could ask the same question about Dubai.

Can't do a direct comparison of opium vs. oil but Afghanistan could very well do something similar and become a seat of some economic sector in the region. People are natural resources too.


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