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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:38 PM 
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U.S. Seeks Expanded Power to Seize Firms
Quote:
The Obama administration is considering asking Congress to give the Treasury secretary unprecedented powers to initiate the seizure of non-bank financial companies, such as large insurers, investment firms and hedge funds, whose collapse would damage the broader economy, according to an administration document.

The government at present has the authority to seize only banks.

Giving the Treasury secretary authority over a broader range of companies would mark a significant shift from the existing model of financial regulation, which relies on independent agencies that are shielded from the political process. The Treasury secretary, a member of the president's Cabinet, would exercise the new powers in consultation with the White House, the Federal Reserve and other regulators, according to the document.


The Treasury department already knew about the AIG bonus mess then played dumb to the whole thing now we want to give them the power to oversee the seizure of non-bank corporations WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT?

This does not sit well on my "do right" filter.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:30 PM 
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I agree...that is FAR too much power, and no matter how 'good' the intentions may be, it's NEVER a good idea to be willing to exchange our rights and freedom for the siren song of false security.

It was wrong in many aspects of the Patriot Act which was a kneejerk, and it's wrong on this kneejerk.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:26 PM 
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yeah. Starting to think the pied piper is dragging the kids to the river instead of getting rid of the rats.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:51 AM 
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I also agree.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:08 AM 
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I'll agree if it actually gets passed, but the key word here is "considering". Much ado about nothing until for sure what the plan is, much like veterans and healthcare. This is likely one of many proposals made by a staffer on the Obama team, and while that might be concerning, only to the point where it can't get past the President's eyes to make the final decisions on ALL recommendations.

Quote:
according to an administration document.


I wouldn't be surprised if, in the document, it was written in starkly different terms and it caught someone's eye to the effect of "Hey! That's the same as seizing a non-bank entity!". Hard to say if that was the intention or not anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:49 AM 
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We're at Economic Threat Level Orange. We need this action to protect America.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:11 AM 
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Guess it's more than a memo, amirite??

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews

Quote:
Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke pressed Congress yesterday to give the federal government unprecedented new power to seize financial firms beyond banks whose collapse could jeopardize the world financial system.
Quote:
Unless there is new legislation expanding the government's control over non-bank entities, Geithner said, the current laws would "continue to constrain our capacity to address future crises."
Better strike while the fear is hot.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:42 AM 
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Venen, it is much more than some staffers idea. Obama addressed it last night in his latest PR event.

Quote:
Q Thank you, Mr. President.

Your Treasury secretary and the Fed chair have been -- were on Capitol Hill today, asking for this new authority that you want to regulate big, complex financial institutions. But given the problems that the financial bailout program has had so far -- banks not wanting to talk about how they're spending the money, the AIG bonuses that you mentioned -- why do you think the public should sign on for another new, sweeping authority for the government to take over companies, essentially?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, keep in mind that it is precisely because of the lack of this authority that the AIG situation has gotten worse. Now, understand that AIG's not a bank, it's an insurance company. If it were a bank and it had effectively collapsed, then the FDIC could step in, as it does with a whole host of banks -- as it did with IndyMac -- and in a structured way renegotiate contracts, get rid of bad assets, strengthen capital requirements, resell it on the private marketplace.

So we've got a regular mechanism whereby we deal with FDIC-insured banks.

We don't have that same capacity with an institution like AIG, and that's part of the reason why it has proved so problematic.

I think a lot of people understandably say: Well, if we're putting all this money in there, and if it's such a big systemic risk to allow AIG to liquidate, why is it that we can't restructure some of these contracts? Why can't we do some of the things that need to be done in a more orderly way? And the reason is -- is because we have not obtained this authority.

We should have obtained it much earlier, so that any institution that poses a systemic risk that could bring down the financial system we can handle, and we can do it in an orderly fashion that quarantines it from other institutions. We don't have that power right now. That's what Secretary Geithner was talking about.

And I think that there's going to be strong support from the American people and from Congress to provide that authority so that we don't find ourselves in a situation where we've got to choose between either allowing an enormous institution like AIG, which is not just insuring other banks but is also insuring pension funds and potentially putting people's 401(k)s at risk if it goes under -- that's one choice -- and then the other choice is just to allow them to take taxpayer money without the kind of conditions that we'd like to see on it. So that's why I think the authority's so important.

Q But why should the public trust the government to handle that authority well?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, as I said before, if you look at how the FDIC has handled a situation like IndyBank, for example, it actually does these kinds of resolutions effectively when it's got the tools to do it.

We don't have the tools right now.


It's getting scary in DC these days.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:52 AM 
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I'm inclined to agree that, considering the current crisis, and all the money we're giving firms like AIG, the government should have the ability to restructure things. The same way banks are handled when they go under. I'm not ok with the no oversight part though.

I'm wishy washy on all of this though, as I just don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough to form strong opinions about much of our current economic crisis.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:59 AM 
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The word "seize" is being thrown around a lot here. Is that effectively what Geithner is asking for? Or, is he, as I suspect, asking for more regulation over businesses that have received bailouts already - as Obama hints at here:

Quote:
I think a lot of people understandably say: Well, if we're putting all this money in there, and if it's such a big systemic risk to allow AIG to liquidate, why is it that we can't restructure some of these contracts? Why can't we do some of the things that need to be done in a more orderly way? And the reason is -- is because we have not obtained this authority.


I'm not convinced that giving a company a bailout because they failed, and then having an unconditional agreement as a part of that bailout that the government also gains the ability to regulate AFTER they receive bailout money... is such a massive broadening of government power. Companies are left with options which leave them perfectly free: Don't fail in the first place, or don't ask the government to bail you out when you do(which upholds free market concepts anyway).

Seems simple enough. Where's chicken little?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:09 AM 
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Unfortunately, the language being bandied about does not restrict takeovers, interventions or whatever spin you want to put on it, to companies who have received bailouts. It will allow the government to do it to whatever business has the capacity to "harm" the economy.

- Who decides which sectors have that capacity?
- What are the criteria for interventions?
- Where is the oversight?
- What guarantees do we have that this won't be abused just like the Patriot Act and anti-terror efforts?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:11 AM 
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Quote:
The Obama administration is considering asking Congress to give the Treasury secretary unprecedented powers to initiate the seizure of non-bank financial companies, such as large insurers, investment firms and hedge funds, whose collapse would damage the broader economy, according to an administration document.


We should be very wary of this type of activity seizure of any private firm looks like the first steps toward nationalization. I was quite hopeful for Obama as he started his Presidency, but now I am becoming sceptical of his actual leadership qualities. He talks and speaks well but his choices for some of his Cabinet leave me wondering what he was thinking. I know that he has only been in office a couple of months so I will give him a few more before I can really feel where he has us heading as a nation.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:19 AM 
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They're specifically pointing fingers at situations like AIG and other bailout companies and suggesting that's where they'd focus their efforts. Which part of the "language being bandied about" suggests no restrictions on who they'd be able to place reglations on? We haven't even seen an actual official proposal yet.

Pretty hard to answer those questions when it reared its head as nothing more than a suggestion a day prior.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:25 AM 
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Quote:
The word "seize" is being thrown around a lot here. Is that effectively what Geithner is asking for? Or, is he, as I suspect, asking for more regulation over businesses that have received bailouts already -


Venen, try doing a tad bit of reading before pretending that the latest powergrab by the Administration is all 'sky is falling' rhetoric. Geithner yesterday:

Quote:
In addition to problems with executive compensation, the financial crisis has revealed systemic gaps in the regulatory structure governing our financial markets. The lack of an appropriate regulatory regime and resolution authority for large non-bank financial institutions contributed to this crisis and will continue to constrain our capacity to address future crises. I will testify before this committee on Thursday to discuss our regulatory reform proposals - particularly those relating to mitigating systemic risk - in more detail.

As we have seen with AIG, distress at large, interconnected, non-depository financial institutions can pose systemic risks just as distress at banks can. The Administration proposes legislation to give the U.S. government the same basic set of tools for addressing financial distress at non-banks as it has in the bank context.

The proposed resolution authority would allow the government to provide financial assistance to make loans to an institution, purchase its obligations or assets, assume or guarantee its liabilities, and purchase an equity interest.

The U.S. government as a conservator or receiver would have additional powers to sell or transfer the assets or liabilities of the institution in question, renegotiate or repudiate the institution's contracts (including with its employees), and prevent certain financial contracts with the institution from being terminated on account of the conservatorship or receivership.

This proposed legislation would fill a significant void in the current financial services regulatory structure with respect to non-bank financial institutions. Implementation would be modeled on the resolution authority that the FDIC has under current law with respect to banks.

Before taking any emergency action, the Treasury Secretary would need to determine that resolution authority is necessary upon the positive recommendations of the Federal Reserve Board and the appropriate federal regulatory agency.


I bolded the critical parts for you.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:28 AM 
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Quote:
We should have obtained it much earlier, so that any institution that poses a systemic risk that could bring down the financial system we can handle, and we can do it in an orderly fashion that quarantines it from other institutions. We don't have that power right now. That's what Secretary Geithner was talking about.


Quote:
"The AIG situation highlights the need for a strong, effective, consolidated supervision of all systemically important financial firms," Bernanke said, saying it was important to install a regulator to "look at the system as a whole, to look for weaknesses in regulation, to look for problems in payment systems, to look for buildups of risky positions, to look for issues with derivatives and so on, to try to provide an overview of problems, in the financial system as a whole, as opposed to focusing solely on each individual institution in isolation."


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:43 AM 
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Already read that Kula, he's specifically referring to *failing* firms. Again, as there is no specific proposal, we don't know two things: 1) What constitutes a failing firm and 2) Whether "failing firm" also implies that the firm in question would have to have asked for a bailout in order to be defined as such.

Same for Joxur's quotes, there's no specific details on whether or not firms would need to be in the same situation that AIG is in(which is brought up time and time again as a reference point) whereas they must have asked for government assistance first.

We need to know the specifics of the proposal in order to determine whether or not the sky will fall.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:27 AM 
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A failing firm should fail. Not be managed by the government.

We should be looking more at why our (and others) entire economy hangs on the balance sheet of firms like AIG, rather than trying to prop them up and/or seize control of them.

Really don't like this idea. Maybe part of it is that I don't fully understand the problem, but I know enough to know I don't want the government just taking over banks and firms.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:52 AM 
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Yes, it would be nice to get to the root of the problem and not be dependent on them. But, I'd rather not see an even worse depression because we decided to be rash and take the baby out with the bathwater. It seems like there has to be an alternative to allowing a company of that size(and of that importance as a critical component to our economy which would prevent further collapse) to simply collapse and the rest of the market go down further with it. It strikes me as taking a rocket launcher to a rat hole.

I'd be against the government being able to take control of any company on a whim - but if a company basically says "here you go take it, we're about to fail anyway and this is the only way to keep the market from collapsing" I can't say I'd mind that too much.

Regardless, we still need details and an official proposal/law.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:01 AM 
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It's just one more part of the USA (Union of Socialist America) plan that all you Obama zelots said was not real and would never happen.

We will share the wealth... That is, as soon as we take over as many public companies as we possibly can...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:45 AM 
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For one, the problem might have something to do with bond raters being funded by the merchants and not the customers.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:45 AM 
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Quote:
It's just one more part of the USA (Union of Socialist America) plan that all you Obama zelots said was not real and would never happen.

We will share the wealth... That is, as soon as we take over as many public companies as we possibly can...


Lol!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 AM 
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Companies that go under take the investor money with them.

Do you plan on retiring some day?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:17 AM 
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Greenwald is pretty depressing today, further diminishing my wavering confidence that Obama knows what the hell he's doing.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:46 PM 
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Aww Come on Surcam! Grab another one of those "Obama is the Savior!" cocktails and suck it down! Everything will be all rainbows and unicorns again!

But seriously, this is a bad road to travel down by ANYONES standards. Rugen is correct when he says "We should be looking more at why our (and others) entire economy hangs on the balance sheet of firms like AIG, rather than trying to prop them up and/or seize control of them.".

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:53 PM 
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Quote:
"We should be looking more at why our (and others) entire economy hangs on the balance sheet of firms like AIG, rather than trying to prop them up and/or seize control of them.".


Beacuse that's the end result of pure capitalism. No system is flawless.

PS: I love how "Socialist" has become the new "Liberal".


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:15 PM 
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From Wikipedia, the first paragraph on the definition of socialism. Emphasis mine.

Quote:
Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late 19th-century intellectual and working class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society.

Contrast that definition with some of the developments of late by our government:

1) Broad criticism of compensation models in the private sector.
2) Talk of nationalizing major banks.
3) Further expansion of that concept to include any business that is "too big to fail".
4) Wealth re-distribution (Obama's words)
5) Universal health care.

Furthermore:

Quote:
Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society, and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society. Therefore socialists advocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly based on the amount of work expended in production, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.
Contrast THAT with all the populist demagoguery by everyone, on all sides, of the past 12 months. Bush and the GOP have done it just as bad as Obama and the Dems are doing it right now.

Not all socialism is bad. There are different strains and differing philosophies. The real problem is that no one can actually talk about socialism honestly. I grant you that the right wing fucknuts are demonizing it, but people like you are advocating the other extreme and refuse to even acknowledge that the government's agenda has been at least moving in the direction of socialism.

If we could take some of the good things about socialism and the good things about capitalism and create both a more stable and equal society that still REWARDS people who excel, then maybe we'd have a better country. Unfortunately, no one wants to even discuss it because we're divided right through the middle. And your kneejerk over-reaction is just as stupid as Khan's.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:48 PM 
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I grant you that the right wing fucknuts are demonizing it, but people like you are advocating the other extreme and refuse to even acknowledge that the government's agenda has been at least moving in the direction of socialism.


I'm not advocating anything or refusing to admit anything. I'm just amused at how certain words become negative labels.

The last one was "liberal". People jsut said it without knowing what it meant or how it applied half the time, it was just "bad". Now it's "socialist".


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:57 PM 
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Is it a bad thing that the FDIC can step in when a bank is collapsing and assure a measure of safety for a large portion of the funds trusted to that bank? It might be a 'socialist' thing but I don't think I saw any conservatives giving the FDIC it's money back when their bank failed. People just love to parrot the hate they hear about things that are socialist without considering how they and everyone else benefit from them.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:55 PM 
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A bank failing and a company failing are two totally different things. People deposit their money in a bank expecting it to be safe and there when they want to get it out. People invest in companies hoping to get a return on their investment.

Socialist vs whatever I don't give a damn. The federal government seizing companies so they don't fail is NOT part of the US Constitution. It is an amazing power grab that we DO NOT NEED.

Going back to an old topic about corporate salaries, Obama's administration is talking about wanting to put a limit on corporations that did not and have not rec'd TARP or bailout monies. That too is too much of a power grab.

Where is the "he will govern from the middle" Obama that was trumpeted all throughout the campaign? Thomas Jefferson must be spinning in his grave to see a Democrat proposing all these massive increases in federal power.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:23 PM 
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We aren't talking about bob's hardware down the street. We are talking about companies that are so large that when they are driven into a ditch they affect everyone, investor or not. I would rather have companies like that have some kind of fucking oversight since they obviously can't be trusted to police themselves.

The question isn't whether or not the power to ruin our economy will exist or not, the question is whether we trust that power to private companies alone or if we want someone to watch them and step in if they are fucking up.

I don't think they will get all the powers requested in the form requested. What I would rather see is just give them the power to go in and look at the books of financial companies. If they see something wrong then they can go back to congress and ask congress to step in or give them the power to step in.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:28 PM 
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The problem with that theory is that corporate America is consolidating and creating MORE mega-companies outside of the banking sector. Nearly all of the industry-best companies in EVERY industry are "too big to fail". With that as the barometer, you could seize Ford, GM... Wal Mart, if they failed. The list goes on and on.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:42 PM 
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Too big to fail implies that people who are not executives, investors, workers, costumers, or in any other way directly affiliated with a company will suffer if that company fails. Any company that achieves such a label should be monitored to insure that people who choose not to affiliate with such a company don't end up suffering in any way shape or form through no fault of their own.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:02 PM 
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Snarky00 wrote:
We aren't talking about bob's hardware down the street. We are talking about companies that are so large that when they are driven into a ditch they affect everyone, investor or not.


Then the solution should be a retooling of laws we ALREADY HAVE regarding monopolies. When a company becomes too large that it's failure could threaten our very economy...then perhaps they should be broken up, as has been done with other monopolistic companies.

Competition continues to push the market then, and the failure of any one agency wouldn't threaten the economy.

I'm sure the solution isn't going to be as simplistic as that, but going in THAT direction seems smarter.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:35 PM 
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Unfortunately, no one wants to even discuss it because we're divided right through the middle. And your kneejerk over-reaction is just as stupid as Khan's.


Jesus, fucking relax man. Can't you spot levity without a casting message.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:53 PM 
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[crazyfucker]shadowbanks and places like banks but not banks need to be treated the same as banks, cause otherwise it fucks people's shit up when they go boom.[/crazyfucker]


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:04 PM 
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Too big to fail implies that people who are not executives, investors, workers, costumers, or in any other way directly affiliated with a company will suffer if that company fails. Any company that achieves such a label should be monitored to insure that people who choose not to affiliate with such a company don't end up suffering in any way shape or form through no fault of their own.
Unfortunately, you don't have a right to not be affected by the actions of others. I can drive down the road and get hit by a bus, through "no fault of my own". That doesn't mean we need a government agency to regulate buses to ensure that never happens.

Every company I cited would affect people who are not directly employed through the efforts of that company. Wal Mart, GM and Ford would cause such a huge mess in terms of jobs lost - it would affect the local economies of not only every town they have large employment in, but each and every one of us to some degree. There's nothing in the constitution that guarantees you the right that those things should never affect you. Sorry to burst your bubble.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:19 PM 
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The key difference between you and your bus and this is a matter of scale. Size really does matter.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:35 PM 
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You actually do have a right to not get hit by a bus, in fact its one of the big ones. And if someone hits you with a bus (fucks their own business and causes some negative effect to you in this metaphor) they might not get punished or they might get charged with manslaughter or murder. You better believe if the police see someone driving a bus down the sidewalk mowing people down they are going to pull the bus over throw the driver in jail and tow the bus.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:02 PM 
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No it's more like...in the morning, all public transits will simply be gone. They no longer run. If you use them, you're shit out of luck on transportation. If you don't...

Enjoy your commute now fuckers! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:11 PM 
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Hey, if you think it's your right to not be affected negatively by anyone else, go hire a lawyer and have fun with that.

In other economic fun times, I really enjoyed this rant.



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:07 AM 
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There's some tangible middle ground between "LET EM FAIL" even for big businesses which may well cause further economic downfall, which is reckless, idealistic, and doesn't take into account reality... and "buy em all up bail em all out".

There's a rather large contingent of people critical of Obama at the moment - at least larger than before. Conservatives because they're all surprised an actual liberal got elected, and liberals now because they want to pretend to be middle of the road and not be seen as a crazed Obama fan(which ironically makes them look much the same, instead of sticking to their guns they opt for an easy, uncontroversial way out).

So with that in mind, the public's viewpoint has been leaning more and more towards Obama doing an "all-bailout all-takeover" plan. I think in reality his ideas are closer to the middle ground, while still leaning perhaps a little too far in the government control/spending category, but far from something drastically uncalled for.

I tend to think if the public has spent so much money on a company just to keep it afloat, there comes a point where we may as well have bought the company anyway. It's not as if under that principle a company could be seized on a whim, especially if they denied money.

For liberal-minded folks this is just another issue they can point to and pretend their opinions are a little more nuanced. In reality, it's the same as the veteran healthcare issue, and more sky is falling rhetoric.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:27 AM 
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and doesn't take into account reality


I completely disagree. But then, we seem to be fundamentally different camps on this. I think the nation should take it's lumps now before they get worse. You seem to think it is better to delay any discomfort NOW in return for more pain LATER.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:57 AM 
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its. I suck.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:42 AM 
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Quote:
I completely disagree. But then, we seem to be fundamentally different camps on this. I think the nation should take it's lumps now before they get worse. You seem to think it is better to delay any discomfort NOW in return for more pain LATER.


No, I think it's better to dismantle these types of financial services monopolies over time instead of allowing them to bring us down with them. I equate it with a kind of lung cancer. You don't simply rip out the lung and hope things will magically become better because you dismantled it right away. You undertake treatment over a longer period of time. And, perhaps more importantly, we don't even know that it will solve the problem... who is to say that letting such firms fail is a short term fix itself, and in reality our problems are more systematically ingrained?

It's a long-term problem that has developed over countless years of emphasis on the financial services sector. That's not something that's going to go away if we suddenly let financial services companies that are failing die. We've developed a sort of addiction to it, and it's going to take time to ween ourselves off. It's a long-term problem, and it's going to require a long-term fix. I don't think we should be looking for simple, non-complex, quick fixes.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:36 AM 
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Bad assets do not become better over time, they become worse. Doing this slowly increases the total impact.

This is not a problem that developed over time. It developed quite recently and because of derivatives and deregulation. Greed on the part of Wall Street and Congress, members of which made a great deal of money off of the sale of bad investment.

There was so much 'money' being made that the firms didn't diversify as much as they should have, in order to have a more attractive quarterly report. Then folks realized they were investing in ridiculous shit, and it all blew up. Investment brokers were even selling shares in 'how many games the Cubs will win this season'.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:30 AM 
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Jesus, fucking relax man. Can't you spot levity without a casting message.


Winner: Quote of the week.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:41 AM 
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Bad assets do not become better over time, they become worse. Doing this slowly increases the total impact.


And you're saying you can't mitigate it at ALL? I mean, in all seriousness, it seems to me like you have a few options on the table beyond "just let it sit or die" in a situation where it would gradually become worse. Split up the company into multiple segments. Take it apart piecemeal. Subject it to further regulation, then, gradually, take it apart. In the meantime, while you shut it down, you prepare the economy for a post-financial-services U.S. economy. I can't count the number of ways a government could conceivably make a company irrelevant with the introduction of laws and regulations. You seriously don't think it can be taken out of the equation for the duration of those years? That's a tough sell.

Quote:
This is not a problem that developed over time. It developed quite recently and because of derivatives and deregulation. Greed on the part of Wall Street and Congress, members of which made a great deal of money off of the sale of bad investment.

There was so much 'money' being made that the firms didn't diversify as much as they should have, in order to have a more attractive quarterly report. Then folks realized they were investing in ridiculous shit, and it all blew up. Investment brokers were even selling shares in 'how many games the Cubs will win this season'.


Sorta depends on what you think the real problem or the real cause of the economic crash was. Sure, in the short-term, derivatives had a lot to do with it. But did that create the real bubble? I don't think so. The real bubble was created when we decided to go the route of financial services, or in Kula's terms(can't remember the exact wording..): Exchange money countless times over again, make services that revolve purely around nothing that is produced, pat ourselves on the back, and call it industry. The recent mortgage meltdown, derivatives, and the like were simply the pinprick that burst it open. It's a long-term problem if I've ever seen one.

Our economy was hardly picture perfection without the inclusion of derivatives, de-regulation, and bad mortgages.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:02 AM 
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Yes, they cannot be mitigated at all. If you have an investment on your balance sheet, that is and always will earn a miniscule or negative return, it is tying up money that can be invested in something that will see actual growth. They are a significant loss, or at best are stagnant.

The companies are poison. And no one's buying their financial products. There's risk, and then there's "you're in line for the throne of the kingdom of idiots if you buy this". Why else do you think the gov't is proposing a guarantee, essentially risk-free, on the assets? That is the only way anyone with any sense would purchase it, and we'll be lucky if less than 60% of those investments tank. Even *with* the guarantee, an investor has options to earn more from another source.

Banks aren't loaning out money, because all of these investments still pose a significant risk to their bottom line. Mortgages were lent based on capital produced by bad investment, their collateral was for lack of better words based on a scam. The housing bubble was built on this influx of mock cash. Even with Congressional pressure to lend to less than fortunate clients, there's only so much money that could have gone out.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:51 AM 
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How can anyone trust the government with expanded powers when they aren't even being transparent with the powers they have now?

Watchdogs: Treasury won't disclose bank bailout details
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/65195.html


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:34 AM 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:49 PM 
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He doesn't need expanded power with favor's like these in his pocket.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/obama-riaa- ... -3786.html


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:15 PM 
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More just to rile up Jox:

N.S.A.’s intercepts exceed limits set by Congress
Quote:
WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency intercepted private e-mail messages and phone calls of Americans in recent months on a scale that went beyond the broad legal limits established by Congress last year, government officials said in recent interviews.

Several intelligence officials, as well as lawyers briefed about the matter, said the N.S.A. had been engaged in “overcollection” of domestic communications of Americans. They described the practice as significant and systemic, although one official said it was believed to have been unintentional.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:57 PM 
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Yeah, well. I told them so. tee hee

The really egregious part of that is that they spied on a member of CONGRESS without a warrant. I just don't get how that's not front page on every single news site.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:28 PM 
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/1 ... 87784.html

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Ackerman, so far, has found the following men in Congress to have gone on codels in 2005 and 2006. We'll continuously update the list and will be calling members of Congress to see what leads they may have.

House members
Darrell Issa (R- Calif.)
George Miller (D-Calif.)
Edward Markey (D-Mass.)
Henry Waxman (D-Calif.)
James McGovern (D- Mass.)
David Dreier (R-Calif.)
Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-Fla.)
Phil Gingrey (R-Ga.)
Doc Hastings (R-Wash.)
Ander Crenshaw (R-Fla.)
E. Clay Shaw (R-Fla.)
Jon Porter (R-Nev)
Michael Fitzpatrick (R-Penn.)
Dave Weldon (R-Fla.)
Collin Peterson (D-Minn.)
Thaddeus McCotter (R-Mich.)
Kenny Hulshof (R-Mo.)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:48 PM 
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joxur wrote:
The really egregious part of that is that they spied on a member of CONGRESS without a warrant. I just don't get how that's not front page on every single news site.
Details?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:18 PM 
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Err.. scroll up? :)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:33 PM 
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How is wanting to spy on a member of Congress more egregious than wanting to spy on ordinary citizens?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:56 PM 
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You're really going to get into this argument with me?

Ok, I'll start with:

An executive branch controlled agency spying on the activities of a member of the supposedly co-equal branch - while on official government business - is definitely more serious than spying on any other person/


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:08 PM 
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Are you implying that citizens aren't part of the governments power in this democracy?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:11 PM 
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This isn't a democracy. If it were, there wouldn't be any paid pols because we'd all run the show -- if things didn't collapse into a great big steaming pile of guano.

As far as spying on regular citizens being more (or less) dangerous than spying on Congressmen or judges, it's hardly a hallmark of a free society to listen in on individuals' phone calls or get the dirt on teir private lives. But to do that to a judge or a member of the legislative branch is even more terrifying because those people create and interpret the laws.

Say your congressman is secretly gay, and he'd be a dead duck if it came out that he likes men. And suppose someone in the Executive Branch finds out the congressman's secret. The President or one of his flunkies can then tell the congressman to vote as he's told, and no one will be the wiser; but step out of line, and word of his sexual preference will be leaked, thus ending the congressman's career. (Or whatever -- he doesn't have to be gay; he could like to bang aardvarks, for all I care.) Think that won't have a profound influence on how the country is run? It sure as hell would/will -- not because America's full of gay-haters, but because someone who wants to keep something secret generally will do whatever it takes to keep the secret a secret.

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