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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:54 PM 
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WASHINGTON, March 16 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The leader of the nation's largest veterans organization says he is "deeply disappointed and concerned" after a meeting with President Obama today to discuss a proposal to force private insurance companies to pay for the treatment of military veterans who have suffered service-connected disabilities and injuries. The Obama administration recently revealed a plan to require private insurance carriers to reimburse the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) in such cases.

"It became apparent during our discussion today that the President intends to move forward with this unreasonable plan," said Commander David K. Rehbein of The American Legion. "He says he is looking to generate $540-million by this method, but refused to hear arguments about the moral and government-avowed obligations that would be compromised by it."

The Commander, clearly angered as he emerged from the session said, "This reimbursement plan would be inconsistent with the mandate ' to care for him who shall have borne the battle' given that the United States government sent members of the armed forces into harm's way, and not private insurance companies. I say again that The American Legion does not and will not support any plan that seeks to bill a veteran for treatment of a service connected disability at the very agency that was created to treat the unique need of America's veterans!"
...
"There is simply no logical explanation for billing a veteran's personal insurance for care that the VA has a responsibility to provide. While we understand the fiscal difficulties this country faces right now, placing the burden of those fiscal problems on the men and women who have already sacrificed a great deal for this country is unconscionable."

Commander Rehbein reiterated points made last week in testimony to both House and Senate Veterans' Affairs Committees. It was stated then that The American Legion believes that the reimbursement plan would be inconsistent with the mandate that VA treat service-connected injuries and disabilities given that the United States government sends members of the armed forces into harm's way, and not private insurance companies. The proposed requirement for these companies to reimburse the VA would not only be unfair, says the Legion, but would have an adverse impact on service-connected disabled veterans and their families. The Legion argues that, depending on the severity of the medical conditions involved, maximum insurance coverage limits could be reached through treatment of the veteran's condition alone. That would leave the rest of the family without health care benefits. The Legion also points out that many health insurance companies require deductibles to be paid before any benefits are covered. Additionally, the Legion is concerned that private insurance premiums would be elevated to cover service-connected disabled veterans and their families, especially if the veterans are self-employed or employed in small businesses unable to negotiate more favorable across-the-board insurance policy pricing. The American Legion also believes that some employers, especially small businesses, would be reluctant to hire veterans with service-connected disabilities due to the negative impact their employment might have on obtaining and financing company health care benefits.

I have not been following this issue that much, but this does not pass the "do right" feel to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:43 PM 
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I heard about this last night on Rachel Maddow. It is total bullshit that should be dropped like a hot potato.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:46 PM 
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We all know that the sacred trust does not end when the uniform comes off. That’s why it’s time to build a 21st-century VA. No more red tape. It’s time to give every service member electronic copies of their medical records and service records upon discharge so that they can immediately get the services that they’ve earned. No more shortfalls. We’ll fully fund VA health care. No more delays. We’ll pass on-time budgets. No more means testing. It’s time to allow every veteran into the VA system.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:22 PM 
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Well, lets be fair here, that's a pretty misleading title you put up there.

I'm not entirely sure I have a problem with insurance companies helping to foot the bill for caring for injured troops. Perhaps some discussion would help out on it, I dunno.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:53 PM 
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my topic header was in the form of a question.

From what the article says it looks like the plan will require vets to have private insurance to pay for their coverage. That is wrong on so many fronts (many listed in the full article).

By requiring private insurance to cover Veterans' medical costs will cause all of our premiums to go up and it will be harder for combat vets to actually get insurance. When he is talking about government health care for everyone then something like this comes out, to me it screams "SCREW YOU!" to all those of us that served our country (even more to those that got injured in the process).

Also, I said that I don't know all sides of this yet, just wanted to get some discussion out here.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:02 PM 
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The only justification for it that I can possibly see is if they are hoping to increase access to care by having private insurance basically engage in cost-sharing. i.e. If a person has insurance outside the VA, then that insurance reimburses the same amounts it otherwise would for treatment. But only if the VA picks up the rest. The individual vet shouldn't suddenly be on the hook for deductibles, copays, etc., that s/he wouldn't owe if s/he wasn't covered by private insurance at all.

Even then, I don't really like it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:11 PM 
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Well, in theory the idea of making one's insurance company pay for one's health care doesn't seem like a bad thing.

And if you don't have insurance? Then you get what we have now, the VA.

Lets face it though, the VA has never been a shining example of health care. Even when there wasn't a war going on, getting any kind of care at all for my grandfather from the VA was like herding cats and arguably played a large role in the decline of his health in his later years.

I'm not advocating, "Make the vets pay!!" but...there's gotta be something better than what we're doing with them now. You know vets all over aren't getting proper medical care under the current system.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:12 PM 
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The individual vet shouldn't suddenly be on the hook for deductibles, copays, etc., that s/he wouldn't owe if s/he wasn't covered by private insurance at all.


Yah, that too.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:46 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Well, in theory the idea of making one's insurance company pay for one's health care doesn't seem like a bad thing.

And if you don't have insurance? Then you get what we have now, the VA.

Lets face it though, the VA has never been a shining example of health care. Even when there wasn't a war going on, getting any kind of care at all for my grandfather from the VA was like herding cats and arguably played a large role in the decline of his health in his later years.

I'm not advocating, "Make the vets pay!!" but...there's gotta be something better than what we're doing with them now. You know vets all over aren't getting proper medical care under the current system.

No, they certainly aren't, and the government has a responsibility to its soldiers to care for them, even after separation. You don't foist the costs onto anyone else, even insurance companies.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:05 PM 
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"Well, in theory the idea of making one's insurance company pay for one's health care doesn't seem like a bad thing."

In general, I agree. In the case of veterans, the government has a responsibility to provide the highest level of care for any injuries / disabilities related to their service, IMHO.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:29 PM 
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I totally agree, it's just that...it's not happening.

While it might be easy to have a knee-jerk reaction of, "Obama charging vets?!?!" it might also benefit us all to at least look at the situation and the possibilities for solutions.

Because right now - and for a very long time - clinging to the ideals of the current system is resulting in inadequate health care for those who risk their lives fighting for their nation.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:42 PM 
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If we think the government is doing such a horrible job with the VA that it's a good thing to move them to private insurance... why in the world do we want the government to take an even larger role in healthcare for the rest of us?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:51 PM 
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why in the world do we want the government to take an even larger role in healthcare for the rest of us?
If we think the government is doing such a horrible job with the VA that it's a good thing to move them to private insurance... why in the world do we want the government to take an even larger role in healthcare for the rest of us?


Presumably to assist those who do not have traditional health insurance.

And yeah, this goes both ways. Gonna whine about the "socialist" state Obama is supposedly turning us into, or gonna whine about Obama wanting to get insurance companies to help care for vets?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:02 PM 
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It's not a hard concept. I'm on the record on the boards of being in favor of universal healthcare.

But if the government sucks at running the VA system, is the right answer to do away with it and turn it over to private companies, or... Fix the problem? In other words, if the US government can't run the VA which represents a tiny percentage of the population, how can it run healthcare for everyone if the first answer is to abandon rather than fix? I'm sure many of the reasons the VA doesn't work will also impede universal coverage. I'm in favor of fixing the inherent problems rather than cut, run, and experience it all over again on a larger scale.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:57 PM 
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Well, to be fair, you have to separate universal coverage from universal care. VA = universal care (in microcosm); Medicare/Medicaid = universal coverage (in microcosm).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:26 PM 
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Hey, hey, Jox. We found something we agree on. :)

I do have to say that this particular bit of news is so completely contrary to what Obama has said in the past, and the fact we are only hearing it from a third party, makes me wonder if the relaying of the news is coloring what the actual plan IS in an attempt to shoot down whatever it is.

But if the plan is as stated? It needs to be dropped and Obama needs to be smacked upside the head. Our government put those men and women in harms way, even worse...for a lie, they sure as hell better suck it up and find a way to ensure they have the health care they deserve.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:09 PM 
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Allow me to quote one of my right-wing blogs.

Dems Fuming Over White House Plan To Make Vets Pay For Service Injuries
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/1 ... 76006.html

You'd think with all the goddamned crisis we're facing, they could find better things to be thinking about than this. Not only is it a dumb idea, but it's politically retarded. This is the kind of thing that just makes me throw my hands up in the air. Who's advising him to even mention crap like this?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:11 AM 
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What's worse is how badly it looks when summed up like:

"Give AIG billions to give their executives millions in bonuses, but be sure to save money when it comes to vets medical care."

He's lost me, if this is really his plan, and it won't be easy to get me back. I may not agree with aspects of our military, but what we owe them is not up for debate.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:58 AM 
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Really sad to hear that this is even on their minds, let alone in the works...wtfsigh...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:15 AM 
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Good call on Obama's part.

The plan hasn't really been hammered out, so we don't know the details really since he hasn't even decided if this is the plan he is going with... but, if it means insurance companies of which soldiers sign up for(and may still even be able to opt out for all we know) have to foot up a more substantial part of the bill, I'd say that's only fair. The VA is also getting additional funding, so it sounds like a win-win on the face of it.

Obama's message has been consistent on veterans - he's not stupid and knows it would be political suicide(not to mention Democrats wouldn't even allow it to stand within Congress) to cut short veterans' benefits in any way shape or form.

A plan where VA would pay for part and soldiers' insurance would pay for part would be optimal really... and also of course if they don't have insurance they automatically get covered by the government anyway, more than likely. As noted, we're still waiting for the details to be hammered out. All in all sounds good though.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:16 AM 
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Veterans should never have to pay or be forced to have a private insurance company pay for health benefits. We gave our blood, sweat, tears, and our lives for the civilians of this country. Simple as that may sound we are truly deserving of the health care the VA affords for free.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:06 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Well, lets be fair here, that's a pretty misleading title you put up there.

I'm not entirely sure I have a problem with insurance companies helping to foot the bill for caring for injured troops. Perhaps some discussion would help out on it, I dunno.


Insurance companies are for profit agencies. If they foot a portion of the bill, that portion will eventually be filtered down to the Vets in fees or premiums. This is a bad precident.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:57 AM 
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Insurance companies are for profit agencies. If they foot a portion of the bill, that portion will eventually be filtered down to the Vets in fees or premiums. This is a bad precident.


You assume that the federal government or VA would not cover any additional fees/premiums, or that there would NOT be some sort of preventative measure that would keep that from happening in a plan that Obama has not yet fully outlined - or even dedicated himself to.

If they're still making money off the government as a part of the deal, they can remain a for profit organization.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:33 AM 
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That response shows a lack of business understanding. Do you also think when they raise the taxes on gas the oil companies eat that cost? When they raise taxes on cigarettes the tobacco companies keep selling them for the same cost?

No matter what the government puts in place, if you start charging private companies portions of medical bills, that portion will be passed back to the consumer in some fashion.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:39 AM 
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But the same is true for government money. That money isn't magic money that is pulled out of thin air. It is paid for by all of us, with interest to boot.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:53 AM 
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Fribur wrote:
But the same is true for government money. That money isn't magic money that is pulled out of thin air. It is paid for by all of us, with interest to boot.

You're either missing the point, or you don't care. Either we the taxpayers pony up the money to take care of the soldiers who were injured in service to this nation, or we make them pay for it themselves.

One of these is the right thing to do. The other is a despicable abuse of the men and women who have served this nation.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:58 AM 
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You're either missing the point, or you don't care. Either we the taxpayers pony up the money to take care of the soldiers who were injured in service to this nation, or we make them pay for it themselves.

One of these is the right thing to do. The other is a despicable abuse of the men and women who have served this nation.


You can keep clinging to the idealistic view of things, but the fact is that it isn't happening. Or at least it doesn't seem to be, based on my experience and what I've read about kids getting their legs blown off and coming back to shitty medical care.

Sure, Obama's idea isn't the best thing anyone's ever thought - and it probably won't actually be implemented - but at least it's an idea to try to help. It's certainly better than just blindly clinging to a system that hasn't and doesn't seem to be working all that great for our veterans.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:15 AM 
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Tyral, I fully agree with you, that we have a responsibility to the fine men and women who put their lives on the line for us, but this issue is much more complex than any discussion in this thread has really done justice to. At least so far.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:47 AM 
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Tyral, I wasn't really arguing about this specific subject at all-- I happen to agree with apparently all of you that I'm not happy with this. I was only pointing out that the "it will be passed on to consumers" argument doesn't work since the same is true if the government foots the bill.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:22 AM 
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True, but if the government is running it through an insurance company we're double paying and the vet is triple paying.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:07 PM 
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Sarissa wrote:
True, but if the government is running it through an insurance company we're double paying and the vet is triple paying.

Exactly my point.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:16 PM 
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Vets are well protected in regards to private insurance. I really believe this is more intended flu, colds, day to day bullshit for the families. This is being WAY overblown. Deductibles, as it is my understanding and I may be wrong here, would still be the responsibility of Uncle Sam.

Note: I'm a combat with vet with an actual combat injury. My rehabilitation and care were outstanding.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:44 PM 
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By reading the article it looks that Obama is trying to get the insurance companies to pay the bill. We all know that insurance companies don't just pay pills, they have to look at each customer and see if they qualify for coverage then charge all of their customers for that service. How can a combat vet get private coverage if the insurance company knows that they will have to cover their care?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:56 PM 
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Note: I'm a combat with vet with an actual combat injury. My rehabilitation and care were outstanding.


That's good to hear, actually.

Perhaps my experiences with my grandfather are a thing of the past, I don't know. The media would have folks like me believe that vets aren't getting adequate care at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:14 PM 
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My wife has had decent medical care for her service-related injuries. In fact, the care after she was discharged was much better than the care while she was still in. I had similar experiences with poor healthcare while I was in the Army. It was a large part of the reason I didn't try for any kind of VA care when I ETS'd.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:16 PM 
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Yah, I'm sure we're all on the same side of, "Get the fucking vets the care they deserve."


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:35 PM 
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Amusing Jon Stewart segment about this.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index ... t-veterans


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:45 PM 
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My dad is a vet and he is getting all his cancer treatment done by the VA. He had a battle with colon cancer about 14 years ago and prostate cancer three years ago. He had surgery for the colon cancer followed by chemo. They were just treating him with meds for the prostate cancer. He last checkup late last year showed him free of cancer. This past weekend, at 65, he completed walking the half-marathon in the Little Rock Marathon for the fourth year in a row.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:06 PM 
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That response shows a lack of business understanding. Do you also think when they raise the taxes on gas the oil companies eat that cost? When they raise taxes on cigarettes the tobacco companies keep selling them for the same cost?

No matter what the government puts in place, if you start charging private companies portions of medical bills, that portion will be passed back to the consumer in some fashion.


Taxpayer money would eat the cost, not the soldier. Or, at worst, we'd cover the soldiers and other consumers would see an increase.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:52 PM 
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They just ditched the plan. Oh well Venen, better luck next time, eh?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:38 PM 
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Speaking as a veteran for almost 18 years (retiring soon :) )

This is what we had before Obama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricare

My perspective is...
1. If I even got shot, had PTSD, blown up by an IED (and lived) or something like that, then I would hope that regardless of how down and out I am, Uncle Sam is still there to foot the bill and take care of these things that are broke with out some red tape.

2. Considering that most of the issues that I see people going to medical for are not pretty much the same crap that most other people go to see a doctor for then what ever kind of medical coverage is out there should be able to handle is (like tricare).

I only scanned through the comments y'all made, but this might be what the president is actually going for... HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS... (when a german scientist says hold on to your hats you hold on to your hats. HAT HOLD!)...
When service members retire from the armed forces they go through a physical seeing what kind of ailments they have. The physical is based on a points and percentage system. They go through the medical record and anotate anything that had happened to you and you tell them what pains you, They test your eyesight, hearing, and anything else and they put together a report for the VA. Now based on how screwed up you are at the end of your career the VA giives the service member money every month as compensation for the "disabilities."

Now if somebody lost a leg in defence of their country, hell yeah give the guy some money for a wheelchair, one of them funky bending leg things to run marathons with or whatever. That is what the VA is for. If another one has PTSD give them some money for therapy or a puppy or something. Whatever.

If some guy that did 20-30 and all he has to show for it is some "random pain" or "minor loss of hearing" then do we need to give these people extra money?

I have an uncle that is the dumbest waste of space on the planet. When he served in Viet Nam he was exposed to Agent Orange and now he gets 3000 bucks a month from the VA. He is still alive and isn't dying anytime soon (darn it). And don't even get me started on what he spends his money on (I wish I could say he blows it on hookers and booze. But this would be a rant for another post).

Anyway, when I go get my physical in a couple months, I will probably have a minor loss of hearing (some due to working around noisey ships and jets and some due to my radio being to loud and umm.. oh yeah ... getting old) and a shoulder injury to claim. I do not expect to come from that physical with enough points to get extra money. I will tell them everything that is wrong so if later down the road something happens I can get the coverage I need for it (then again, I might be ok just insurance).

One thing that I can tell you is I have worked with a lot of civilians that are prior retired military who are getting money for nothing (and chicks for free.. now wait that was someone else). In my opinion, the only things wrong with some of these guys is that they got old, didn't take care of themselves, and lack some morals. Most if these guys don't need that extra however much they are getting a month. Screw those guys.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:51 PM 
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Good points, Phread.

Quote:
They just ditched the plan. Oh well Venen, better luck next time, eh?


Refer to my first paragraph first sentence spoken in this thread. Very unsurprising given the political environment. People have a natural knee-jerk reaction any time such things are suggested, so it's expected.

Much ado about nothing, as always =) I'm confident one of these days we'll see a Joxur post with a link about a dire Obama situation/move that actually sticks. You'll have plenty of time in the next 8 years to find something.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:34 AM 
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Quote:
From what the article says it looks like the plan will require vets to have private insurance to pay for their coverage. That is wrong on so many fronts.


This is just a continuation of what clinton put into effect 12+yrs ago. The way it stands now, if you ARE a veteran and make more than 24k/yr you are not eligible for veterans medical benefits of a non-service related issue. If you were in the system prior to this going into effect then you were grandfathered in.

Just more Democratic anal stroking of this countries vets. Business as usual from the dems.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:37 AM 
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I'll never understand how vets bash the democrats for stuff like that, but embrace the Republicans for sending them off to Iraq. =/


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:46 AM 
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Maybe that's because Congress sent them off to Iraq, with the overwhelming support of both political parties.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:52 AM 
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That is exactly right Sarissa. Too many of us seem to forget how complicit most of the Democratic leadership was. Mostly because they've done alot of trying to make us forget.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:03 PM 
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I'm not really sure about "overwhelming"... certainly more than I would have liked, but there's a definitive difference even back then when it was still somewhat politically unpopular to oppose Bush(remember that he still had a lot of support going for him post-9/11, and it took the failing Iraq War to finally bring the American public around.. not that it excuses it, but it was politically difficult I would say).

On the Iraq War Resolution:

House:
Republican yes 215 no 6
Democratic yes 82 no 126

Senate:
Republican yes 48 no 1
Democratic yes 29 no 21

I know some like to paint the parties as exactly the same, but that's not exactly even steven there.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:49 PM 
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Of course, at that point in time he also hadn't been called out on basing it all on lies, either.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:11 PM 
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How many of the 'no' votes in the House came after the measure already had enough votes to pass?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:12 PM 
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Quote:
Of course, at that point in time he also hadn't been called out on basing it all on lies, either.


Which still didn't matter one iota for a good number of people, and shouldn't have mattered to members of Congress. Morally because there was no just cause, and strategically because Saddam likely only would have used them as a bargaining chip and because Saddam had hard relations with Al Qaeda.

That, and there were already people on the ground saying there were no WMDs, and not just the weapons inspectors themselves.

Quote:
How many of the 'no' votes in the House came after the measure already had enough votes to pass?


It's hard to know what's in anyone's hearts, really. All we can glean from this is that one party leaned in somewhat significant numbers against war, and I think it's one of many indicators that general ideology differs with both parties, at least in a significant enough fashion that one party will make different(not always) choices than the other.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:16 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Well, in theory the idea of making one's insurance company pay for one's health care doesn't seem like a bad thing.


I know this is a (now) dead issue, but that was my thought initially too. I ended up discussing this with my husband who was BATSHIT over it. I said it hardly seemed like a bad thing...having private insurance cover what they could, VA picking up the rest...

He pointed out that private insurance doesn't EXPECT people to be in a fucking warzone intentionally. His health insurance (our health insurance) is more expensive because of his profession. As a police officer he's taking risks that Joe Blow isn't. Additionally, people in his profession have increased rates of specific diseases (heart disease especially high).

This is all taken into consideration with the rates we pay. And that rate goes down as the 'group' that police officers are under includes non-police personnel. So if (for example) you had everyone in the city on the plan...then the non-police are paying a little bit more than they would if the cops weren't on the plan...and the cops are paying less.

And the city is picking up more of the premium usually to offset it, so it evens out.

Long story short, it's high...but the benefits make the job worthwhile, not so much the salary.

If you have soliders on private insurance through their jobs/spouses then that 'cost' is through the fucking roof, because the risks are through the fucking roof.

Insurance isn't there to shit out that much extra cash, so they'd make changes. I'm sure they would attempt to exclude spouses in the military, or put in 'NO WARZONE' clauses...which could fuck private citizens. I mean, what if you get injured on vacation because some bullshit breaks out. Too bad that clause includes you now?

Or they make the premiums at your company much higher because some military people work there? Or you're within X miles of a base...so it's higher (if laws are passed saying they can't ASK or some shit).

Basically we pay for it. And while yeah, we also pay for it with the VA...at least we're ALL paying for it.

Basically I saw his point and saw why this was pretty fucking bad on this point as well. There's lots of other points which people have raised. But like Bov, I initially thought it was a good idea.

Fortunately the administration changed it's position. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:34 PM 
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Quote:
He pointed out that private insurance doesn't EXPECT people to be in a fucking warzone intentionally.


Yeah, they expect you to pay them money, wrap yourself in cotton and never leave the house, and then do their best to not pay when something does go wrong. ;)

...but that's another discussion.


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