Married gays in Mass. sue US for federal benefits


I have not read the filing, but this seems to be a good case. If a couple are legally married in their state then they should receive the same "benefits" as other married couples.

I look forward to seeing more on this one.

As do I. While I would love for the case to stand on "It's not equal treatment", I'm enough of a realist to accept that sometimes you need a dollar figure as well to get people listening. God, what a horrible sentence.

I hope they win this-- it would be a great victory for gay rights, I think.

With democrats controlling the executive and legislative branches of government its only a matter of time before gays will be serving openly in the military and marrying in every state. Once those rights are established it wont matter who gets elected in the next cycle because they wont be able to take them away. Get over it.

You must think that because of Obama's support of gay marriage. Oh, wait. He doesn't support it.

Reminds you of the big speech from, "And the band played on", eh?

Here in NM they shot down Domestic Partnership once again, for the 3rd time. But we havent given up yet!

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
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Just because a person is an Obama supporter doesn't mean that they can't disagree with one (or many) of his stances. In regards to gay marriage, Obama is on the wrong side.

My point was in response to his certainty that just because Dems are in control that anything will change.

Trust me, Obama has enough problems to deal with on the economy, war, etc., to take on an issue that he doesn't even support. Congressional leadership is no better.

and it is sad because this, to me, is an easy one.

Yet, there are people on these boards who seem intelligent... who ARE intelligent.. and they still think gay marriage is a bad idea.

I think for most of them they've bought into the bullshit of the religiousity of marriage...specifically the 'christianization' of it. Which as an atheist, scares me more than a little.

I mean...I'm an infertile atheist, by most arguments I've seen made in my state, the religious folks who pushed Prop 8 don't want *me* being married either!

Some days I'd agree with them, but seriously...wtf?!

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It's sort of amusing religion wants to claim marriage as theirs but they also want it to be governed.

One or the other folks.

hey remember that time when people were denied certain rights of citzenship due to outdated cultural stereotypes

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Yeah, damn those gays, just thinking they can use my water fountain.

Sadly, you're probably right. That said, there is a much higher chance of gay marriage becoming federally recognized underneath a Democratic congress than a Republican one these days.

For me, personally, the rights and responsibilities have always been more important than the word used to describe them. If there's not the political will for federal gay marriage, but there is for federal civil unions, I'm totally down with that. I can't think of a single circumstance under which a particular church would be forced to recognize a gay couple that they didn't want to recognize, but if the terminology is the only thing standing in the way of recognition, I say go with the alternate term.

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Hope is the new black.

I don't see why this is such a big deal, the government has no real reason to say no to this if they get religion out of the way.

However they should not tell the church that the church needs to recognize/accept it. I believe that falls under the separation of church and state.

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

republican leadership

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But when has the government told churches how to run their businesses? And why would they do it now?

As it is now, I don't think any church would marry me (an atheist) to an imaginary atheist woman. So, as it is now they have the right to deny marriage to people, why would that change later?

Yet ideologically certainly a step up from trying to ban it constitutionally.

Isn't Obama getting rid of the marriage tax credit anyway? When he does that it will go back to being a penalty for being married when it comes to filing taxes.

Anyway, I hope they win too.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

I hate you.

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X_x

To my knowledge they have, not but the biggest argument for not allowing same sex marriages is by the churches.

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Hahahahah that link was great

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
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And anyone who votes because of that argument shows how ignorant and misled they are by the churches. That's one of the biggest lies churches spew in order to incite fear in people. As it is now churches can deny anyone of marriage for whatever reason. /shrug

I don't know why so many gays have to make bad videos.

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Hope is the new black.

It's one of the universe's great mysteries. That next to geocentrism/heliocentrism are some of the world's greatest mysteries.

That, and how gay people actually become gay.

Never happened, never will.

I'm an atheist...no church can be FORCED to marry me. Think I can walk into your church and say 'HEY YOU HAVE TO MARRY ME'...and have it happen because I demand it?

Utterly ridiculous. My local Catholic church refused to perform a wedding the DAY of the wedding because the bride's dress was deemed improper...you think they can do shit like that but somehow be forced into doing gay marriages?

Hahahaha.

Yes, yes I know it's an argument many religious institutions make. It is however a lie. And worse, they know it is a lie.

I think it's sad that their religion often has things to say about lying too. When confronted (and yes, I've personally confronted some) it often falls back on the ends justifying the means.

Yep, that's EXACTLY what Jesus would say.

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The most frequently cited example I've seen used by the opposing side of this issue involved a church that was "forced" to let a lesbian couple get married in their outdoor venue. Which when summed up like that, sounds wrong, which is why they don't tell people why the courts ruled the way they did (involving the church declaring it a "public space")

For example:
http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2009/01/0 ... an-couple/

This was a much different thing from the government telling a church it has to marry someone in a ceremony, yet it can be easily played to those fears. And of course, the fear mongers on that side of the debate are working it all they can.

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That website is scary. =O

Not the one I was originally looking for, but funny, nonetheless.

For the first 2 years of my jerking life I did it with 2 hands like I was starting a fire with a twig and rock.

Just thought I'd share.

Iowa Supreme Court Rules Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional



A rational decision, how nice.

It looks like they have a similiar method as Mass (and very much unlike California) for amending the state constitution. It has to be brought up and passed in two consecutive state legislative sessions and then go up for a popular referendum in the following year. The head of the State Senate said prior to the ruling that, either way it went, he couldn't see introducing the consideration of a constitutional amendment in this years legislative session, since it only lasts for two more weeks.

Apparently that will push back any possible constitutional amendment to 2012 at the earliest. If the example set in Massachusetts holds true, that level of animus will be hard to maintain over a multi-year period.

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Hope is the new black.

Thats what they want Bearne

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
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Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

reform marriage

marriage = religion
contract = the contractual part of it, the legal part that provides benefits

fuck the whole church + state + contract + religion shit

What I don't get is why gays cannot have a civil union. That is purely a court issue, not a marriage issue. It has nothing to do with a church; it takes place in a court house.

OK, so what...gays can't say they are married. They have to say they are civilly united. Big deal! Then they could enjoy all the rights and privileges a married couple can. The tax folks don't care if you are married in a church...they care if you have signed the legal documents of a union. That should be applicable to EVERY couple that has been officially declared united within a state.

Why can't those biggots hiding behind Jesus fucking accept this? It has NOTHING to do with religion...it is a civil union under the law of man. Why can't the courts look at it from the very simple point of view of a union between two willing participants?

Because, to them, ANY level of social acceptance of homosexuality is something to be fought and kept from embracing.

But, as another friend pointed out..."As Iowa goes, so goes the nation."

Here's hoping.

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The water fountain analogy still makes sense here. Yes, there are a number of things that are dissimilar about the two issues, but one thing remains common if we go along with this "civil unions are the same if we give rights" idea: Separate but equal. You get the same rights, but it is still discriminatory. That is far from true equality.

I wouldn't be surprised if "so what?" was a rather common phrase back in that day.

Yes, but isn't the marriage certificate the only thing that makes a union legal by law? Being married in a church means nothing to the state, especially when it comes to taxes. All getting married in a church does is "symbolize" that the union is approved under the eyes of some god. I could go marry anyone I want in a church right now, but come tax season I'll lawfully be allowed to file single if I did not sign a state-issued marriage license.

This issue seems so black and white to me; two consenting adults (or what is considered lawful by each state's age requirements to marry) should be able to marry one another in any court house across this nation if we, as Americans, truly believe that all are considered equal and that each man and woman should have equal rights. It's just bullshit that the religious folks and gay hate-mongers make it so difficult for ALL men and women, regardless of faith, sexual orientation, color, or creed to participate and reap the rewards (and consequences) of being legally bound to one another by any given state.

It's currently not the same to the state because civil unions and marriages afford different rights in many states.

If they make civil unions fully equal, then yea. There's still a serious discrimination issue when gays can't get married in churches like everyone else, but that's something society will probably have to work out for itself.

Yeah, as awesome as it would be for gays to finally get whole, equal marriage rights through civil unions, it would still stink of, "Separate but equal."

Would someone just yank the fucking stick out of the collective ass of the religious establishment already?

Does anyone have some examples of how a state provides more benefit to those who are married than to those who are in a civil union?

No one needs to. It's called filing federal taxes jointly.

So, those who are in a civil union cannot file taxes jointly?

An aside, my mother in law is an older lady in her 70s, and is a rather conservative woman. I have dealt with some of my own relatives being anti-gay marriage, and it's been rather painful.

The subject of gay marriage came up with my MIL. She surprised me greatly, she is in deep support of it. And for all the right reasons.

I know we tend to get really black and white about it in terms of looking at it as a 'religious people foster this bigotry'...and while SOME religions do that, no question...I've found many deeply religious people who support gay marriage. And some non-religious people who don't, purely out of bigotry.

I've found some self styled liberals who aren't in this area, and more than a few republicans and conservatives who WANT gay marriage and are all for it.

People will surprise you, but you have to have a dialogue with them about it. And while talking about it has been at times deeply painful (it hurts a lot when a close family member mocks you and those you care about and gloats in their bigotry. It hurts a lot)...most of the time it's been very fruitful.

I also do not mean to suggest that *every* person who is against gay marriage is a bigot. Most people I have talked to who are against it are, but not all. The few exceptions are those who honestly don't really have strong feelings on homosexuality, but feel they have to support the decision religiously because their church has told them so. :\ And some of them are deeply conflicted about it, and in some cases that position has cost them a lot.

I'm also conflicted how I feel about those people. On the one hand I feel bad for them. On the other hand...what they are doing is an absolute wrong and oppressive. The fact that in their hearts they know better, makes it far worse. Especially when they simply don't want to make a choice, they want to just follow their church and also not hurt other people...but when they donate money because their church told 'em to...well...they've hurt people.

I've seen some people in that situation, and I have a business relationship with someone in that situation. It's shitty.

Meanwhile, in countries which have legalized gay marriage and have full rights for homosexuals, the world hasn't ended. It's no longer a BFD (or so I'm told by Canadians ;D), and life has gone on...much better for some.

Me? I think I'm only as free as those around me. So when others are oppressed, I live in oppression. And it's something I cannot tolerate, or sit and watch.

I guess I should be glad they don't stone mouthy chicks any more. At least not in California.

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No, because civil unions are NOT recognized on a federal level for filing taxes.

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http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html



There are other differences listed as well there.

So basically, no they can't.

(gah, Tarot beat me to it during my preview =D)

Most California stoner chicks I've met have been mouthy, Tarot...

I found this URL as well...

http://www.therainbowbabies.com/GayTaxes.html

"California According to the State of California Tax Franchise Board, same-sex couples filing for years prior to 2007 must file individually. For the 2007 tax year, gay and lesbian couples can file joint state taxes."

"Connecticut As of the 2006 tax year, civil union couples can file joint state tax returns in Connecticut."

"Vermont Registered civil union partners in Vermont can legally file joint state taxes."

"Washington D.C. Under the Domestic Partnerships Joint Filing Act of 2006, registered domestic partners in Washington D.C. can file joint returns."

Well, there are a couple of examples that demonstrate that civil union couples can file jointly...but it's not nearly enough.

Seriously, if I was a legislator or court justice of any state that does not recognize and implement 100% equal and fair treatment of ALL couples...I'd be ashamed of myself and relieve myself of my position.

And I know those are state taxes, not federal taxes.

That's why I specifically said certain states.

I'd still consider that a pretty big benefit. There's nothing like having to do one set of taxes one way, and then do a complete about-face as you file your federal taxes.

I just wish there was something I could do to make it right for those men and women out there who are not treated as equals. Can you imagine if those who have handicaps weren't allowed the same privileges...or those of older age, etc.?

Seriously, it just disgusts me that the federal government refuses to grant them the same rights as us straight folks.

Then there's the whole non-economic related stuff that sometimes same sex couples are not allowed to have, like being at the hospital with your spouse, or take important decisions for your spouse when they can't. Sure, your state may support civil unions or marriage, but you travel to another state, something bad happens, the state doesn't recognize your union, you are fucked.

There's a news article Tarot showed me the other day with a story about a lesbian couple who were vacationing, one of the spouses got sick, ended up in the hospital and her spouse was not allowed to see her. I think they had kids too, and they were not allowed to see their mom either because they were legally not her kids. Or something along those lines, hopefully Tarot remembers the link and can post it.

And that's another thing, if you want a family, some states only allow one of the parents to be the legal parent of the kids. So, there's a lot of other things outside of economic benefits that same sex couples are denied.

You can. Here's what I think everyone who feels as you do SHOULD do.

1) VOTE. Not just on this issue, but make this issue one of your 'I will vote for you' points. Make it clear (as in writing to them!) that it is a key issue for you.

2) Talk to people. I don't just talk to people about this issue, but I also address the subtle bigotries that we see all the time. I address anything that equates homosexuality as 'bad' in any way. I emphasize that it's FINE (really, it is!) if you DO NOT LIKE IT, but not liking something is no reason to oppress people. I also point out to religious folk the MANY religious things we don't legislate. Such as divorce being wrong in many religions...should we outlaw that? What about diet restrictions? What about adultery? Should we criminalize it because almost all religions find adultery to be seriously wrong?

Why this then? And when we talk about marriage being a 'Christian' ideal, we can talk about the fact that marriage existed prior to Christianity, and before Jewish people. It is NOT a 'religious' institution, and in fact polygamy among other things has existed as a marriage tradition much longer than their current beliefs. Slavery is an old institution too, often justified by religion. Doesn't mean it didn't need changing. And in the instance of marriage, it's not even a change, many cultures have had gay marriage, including ancient Rome.

3) Financially Support It There's big bucks fighting to deny homosexuals rights. In Prop. 8 in California, we saw it, lots of money came flowing in. The Knights of Columbus (a mens catholic organization) donated a million dollars, for example. Even donating $5 will help, if you can. Just get it to the right groups.

4) Write about it. Write letters to the editor. Write about it online. Personalize it, let people know who YOU are, and why you feel the way you do on this issue. I'm a woman married to a man...legally married. So clearly, I'm not self interested in terms of 'I want to marry my partner'. Having ME speak out helps to demonstrate clearly that this is not a purely 'gay' issue, or an issue of self interest among only those directly and personally impacted...but that it is a human rights issue we ALL should care about.

5) Go Public We put signs in our yard, which clearly showed our position. It informed people who surprisingly didn't already know...including some neighbors who came over and tearfully thanked us. (Gay couple down the street). Of course we also got a nasty letter, but that hardly effected me. I don't put stickers on my car, but you can hang a vinyl peel off in the window. You can buy hats, t-shirts, buttons, etc. I have pro-gay marriage shirts I wear in public. I feel it's very important to let people know that they're not alone in their fight for equality, and to let people know what I stand for on this issue.

6) Protest When you can, where you can, attend peaceful protests. It's one of the best rights we have as Americans, to assemble and protest that which we find unjust. It also helps when the media does cover it to show that it's an issue lots of people care about (and when the mob cares, politicians suddenly are interested ). I cannot stress the 'peaceful' part enough. If you feel you cannot be peaceful (and believe me, I've felt that way at times) do not go. There have been protests I didn't attend, because I was so ANGRY I was afraid that I could not remain peaceful. Even screaming angry words doesn't help. So in those instances I helped by staying at home and doing other things, like writing etc.

Hope that helps. I know it can feel like picking up that lone starfish off the beach when there's a million more sitting out there dying...but it does make a difference to that one.

In other words, even if what we do seems minor, and is in reality minor...it's like any kind of teamwork; many hands can accomplish what we cannot do alone. What I contribute doesn't have to be the biggest or the best...I just have to contribute.

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Gosthok is speaking of Janice Langbehn. Here is her story, in her own words. It still makes me cry. And makes me so very angry. My husband just got out of the hospital the other day. He had chest pains on Tuesday night, and he's (thankfully) okay. He just needs his hypertensive medication changed. It was however very scary, to say the least, and I got very little sleep over this last week.

I had only 1 incident the entire time where a male nurse (who was a douchebag to everyone) got shitty with me and refused to give me information under the 'I can't talk about patients' bullshit, despite notes on both of our charts/files stating that we authorize full disclosure (somethng we did primarily due to my illness), even though LEGALLY it's unneeded as we're husband and wife.

My husband overheard this and screamed at the nurse that HE authorized him to tell me everything, before I could go all legal on his ass.

Even just a moment of that was heartwrenching.

I cannot imagine, I do not want to imagine, someone denying me the right to be at his side, to know what is going on for my sake, and more importantly for his sake, during such a terrible and already scary time.

And yet for anyone who is homosexual, they DO have to imagine it. They do have to fear it. And even if they do everything within their power to legally plan for it...the worst can still happen.

The worst does happen. It did here. And this isn't an isolated case, there are people I know, on this very forum in our community, who have suffered similarly.

http://thelpkids.com/2009/03/29/102909/

Here's an excerpt (bolding mine):

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