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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:05 PM 
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Can somebody explain to my how a non-state can get a voting seat in the house?

Quote:
Washington Post
February 27, 2009

The Senate on Thursday passed a bill that for the first time would give Washington, D.C., a full voting member of the House of Representatives. But senators managed to attach an amendment that would scrap most of the city's gun-control laws.

The 61-37 vote marked the first time in 31 years that the Senate had approved a Washington, D.C., voting rights bill.

The addition of the gun language could complicate the bill's passage, however, because it will be necessary to reconcile the Senate version of the legislation with the companion bill in the House. Voting rights supporters hope the gun amendment can be removed in those negotiations.

The House is expected to approve the bill next week, and President Obama has indicated he will sign it.

"We are coming to a pivotal moment in a march that has gone on for years and years," Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.), the co-sponsor of the legislation, said in a brief speech before the vote.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said the bill violated the constitutional provision that House representatives should be chosen by the "people of the several states." Washington, D.C., is not a state, he noted.

"The Constitution is short because its authors wanted it to be clear," McConnell said. He added that "it could not have been more so" on the issue of House representation.

The bill would expand the House permanently by two seats. One would go to strongly Democratic Washington, D.C., while the other would go to the next state in line to pick up a seat based on population count. For two years, that seat would be Republican-leaning Utah. It would then pass to whichever state qualified based on census results.

Similar legislation died in the Senate two years ago after passing the House. But it benefited this time from Democrats picking up at least seven Senate seats in the last election.

If it becomes law, the bill will expand the House for the first time since 1913. But it is likely to face a legal challenge that could go to the Supreme Court.

The gun amendment is similar to a sweeping measure approved by the House last year that was fiercely opposed by the Washington, D.C., government.


It seams to me that the Senators need to read Article One Section two of the United States Constitution.
Quote:
The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.


As I read that in order for this Bil to be constitutional they would need to make D.C. a state, right?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:11 PM 
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I'm actually for this, D.C. residents should have a voice. But I don't understand how this doesn't require a constitutional amendment. And I'm worried about the next logical step, the Senate. I'm open to being persuaded they should get one, certainly not two, which screws things up.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:40 PM 
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Geez, man, this isn't a big fucking deal. They pay their taxes. You don't want them to have a rep in the House?

Don't you remember "no taxation without representation"?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:46 PM 
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yeah there's definitely going to have to be an amendment for this, granting the district specific congressional rights without being a state, and it will have to cover the other US territories as well, so i can't see how this is the last expansion of the house

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:46 PM 
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It is a big deal, they can't just pass any law they want. They need to keep it constitutional, that where the problem is.

Isn't D.C. technically part of Virgina anyway?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:49 PM 
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You're right, it would require a constitutional amendment.

But no, it's not part of Virginia. It's in the name, dude. "District of Columbia."

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:53 PM 
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It seems crazy to me that an entire city full of taxpayers have never had a vote in Congress. However it needs to be done to pass the threshold of constitutionality, the residents of D.C. should get a Representative.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:58 PM 
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Tyral the Kithless wrote:
But no, it's not part of Virginia. It's in the name, dude. "District of Columbia."


I understand the name, I was just wondering if it were like some Indian reservations that are part of a state but not "really" part of a state. I know that most of the Reservations don't pay taxes, I am not talking about that. just more the question of what it really is.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:58 PM 
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Washington DC was set aside so that one state could not say "We are the Nation's Capital State!" It is a district, not a state, not a territory, just a district.

They should not have a voting member in Congress. Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, and our other territories do not have a voting member in congress. DC should not either.

I don't think that the original founding thought that people would be living full time in DC anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:01 PM 
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krby71 wrote:
Washington DC was set aside so that one state could not say "We are the Nation's Capital State!" It is a district, not a state, not a territory, just a district.

They should not have a voting member in Congress. Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, and our other territories do not have a voting member in congress. DC should not either.

I don't think that the original founding thought that people would be living full time in DC anyway.


very good point.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:02 PM 
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But, as you said, D.C. isn't a territory. Puerto Rico, etc., have the option of applying for statehood. D.C., per the Constitution, specifically does not.

If D.C. residents don't have the option of having their vote heard in Congress, then they should be exempt from Federal taxation.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:25 PM 
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Then everyone would move to D.C.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:26 PM 
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The the easy solution would be to amend the constitution, and give the District of Columbia a single voting representative in the House, and no senator.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:32 PM 
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Crowde Control wrote:
Then everyone would move to D.C.


Nah, only the people who have enough money to afford to insane housing costs that would result.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:34 PM 
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It's been this way for.. how long, now?

Don't we need a more compelling reason to amend the constitution? What new information do we have that, after so many years, it's RIGHT NOW that it's suddenly in need of fixing..?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:45 PM 
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It isn't something new. It's been in the pipes in various forms for years.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:47 PM 
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I could see one problem with making DC a state. All those politicians who live in the city. Might be required to change their residency. And if that happens then they are no longer residents of their states. Not like they actually represent their districts anyways.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:54 PM 
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I suggest a reading of Article I of the Constitution and subsequent reading of Federalist Papers #43.

The District is outlined in those documents. It lists how it is to be formed and who they are to be governed by. It also lists why it can not be a state itself.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:13 PM 
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I guess, I just don't get why they need a vote in the house. The residents pay federal taxes but then so does my Uncle who mainly lives on Batam (an island south of S'pore). Does that mean Batam should also be able to get a voting seat in the House?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:15 PM 
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And the 17th and 23rd Amdendments.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:22 PM 
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I found this interesting:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... f_Columbia

I never knew that D.C. residents had full voting rights from 1790 - 1800.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:31 PM 
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bearne wrote:
And the 17th and 23rd Amdendments.


Bearne... can you explain to me what the 17th & 23rd Amendment has to do with D.C. getting a Voting seat in the House?

Quote:
The Seventeenth Amendment (Amendment XVII) to the United States Constitution passed the Senate on June 12, 1911, the House of Representatives on May 13, 1912 and the states completed ratification on April 8, 1913. The amendment supersedes Article I, § 3, Clauses 1 and 2 of the Constitution, transferring Senator selection from each state's legislature to popular election by the people of each state. It also provides a contingency provision enabling a state's governor, if so authorized by his state's legislature, to appoint a Senator in the event of a Senate vacancy until either a special or regular election to elect a new Senator is held.


Quote:
Amendment XXIII was the twenty-third Amendment to the United States Constitution which permits the District of Columbia to choose Electors for President and Vice President. The amendment was proposed by Congress on June 17, 1960, and ratified by the states on March 29, 1961. The first Presidential election in which it was in effect was the presidential election of 1964.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:33 PM 
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Good luck with that


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:33 PM 
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I think it's pretty clear -- the people who live in DC basically get the shaft as far as representation go, in fact, their voice wasn't even heard in the Presidential Election until the 23rd Amendment was passed.

the 17th would just say how they get a Senator.

This is really up to the SCOTUS's interpretation of "State" though.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:49 PM 
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krby71 wrote:
Washington DC was set aside so that one state could not say "We are the Nation's Capital State!" It is a district, not a state, not a territory, just a district.

They should not have a voting member in Congress. Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, and our other territories do not have a voting member in congress. DC should not either.

I don't think that the original founding thought that people would be living full time in DC anyway.

Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands don't pay Federal taxes, either.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:52 PM 
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Sorry for the double post. That should say "most Federal taxes." They do pay shit like Social Security, but not income tax. At least not to the U.S.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:14 PM 
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Because you can't really just look at krby's references without also considering the changes to the constitution that have modified definitions and ideas. i.e. If the framers intended [X] as noted in Article I and the Federalist papers, but future amendments change the Constitution to mean [Y], [Y] becomes the new law of the land.

Ken Starr (yes, *that* Ken Starr, of all people!) has argued that Congress can create a voting seat in the House of Representatives by legislation rather than by Constitutional Amendment. My understanding of his argument is that he is relying at least in part on the section of Article I which Devil quoted above:

"The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

His argument, as I understand it, is that the operative word in the phrase "the People of the several States" is "People," specifically as contrasted with the original methodology for selecting Senators, which resided with the states (later modified by the 17th amendment). The implication he draws is that the intent in Article I was for the House of Representatives to directly represent the interests of The People, while the Senate directly represented the interests of each state.

That difference, from what I understand, is the underpinning of the argument for the District having a voting Representative, but not a Senator, since all of The People deserve Representation.

Which is why I would think that the 17th Amendment would have to be considered, since it, at least in part, changes the rationale behind the selection of Senators. And the 23rd Amendment bears on the matter because it establishes that, even though The People of the District are not residents of a State, they still have an inherent right to have a say in the selection of the President unlike residents of a Territory.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:42 PM 
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I wish someone would have told me Puerto Rico doesn't pay federal income taxes when I lived there for two years.

As far as DC residents not paying federal income tax? (Theory by Bearne earlier) If I didn't have to pay federal income tax, I know damn well I could afford a house in DC, probably a pretty damn nice one!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:47 PM 
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Well, it wasn't so much as theory as it was taking a crazy situation to its logical conclusion.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:40 PM 
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I have got the solution....

After doing some reading, DC needs to be treated just like, American Samoa, Guam, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. Unless the person works for a United States Government agency, they would not pay any Federal Income Tax, but Residence would pay U.S. federal taxes: import/export taxes, federal commodity taxes, social security taxes, they would also not be eligible for any federal aid except SSI at the time of retirement. Following what is done in the other places they would have there own income taxes set by DC. This would fix the issue caused by the 16th amendment that does not clarify DC.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:07 PM 
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Xantheus Diabolus wrote:
I wish someone would have told me Puerto Rico doesn't pay federal income taxes when I lived there for two years.

I'm not sure where the division ends, and at what point you're a Puerto Rican citizen or what have you, but if you paid while you were there, I'm sure there was a legal reason for it. I'm not making this shit up, Puerto Ricans really don't pay Federal income taxes.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:28 PM 
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There are several outdated concepts within the constitution that need further revision. This is as good as anything I can think of as a starting point. Sounds good, let's do it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:30 PM 
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This is retarded. They need to quit pretending like they are special and just let Maryland or Virginia absorb them. There is no reason for our capital to not be part of a state. The whole situation is just some kind of empty frame work for setting up a class system in the United States. US citizens living in the US that don't get a vote. I think that is what we fought our first war over.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:52 PM 
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It's not as if D.C. is "pretending they're special." I'm not even sure you're serious after reading that. There are actually a number of reasons not to have our capital fall under the purview of a state, most importantly state laws and jurisdictional issues.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:49 AM 
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Its silly. Why should our national lawmakers waste time managing a local jurisdiction? The only reason they do it is because they don't want to get bossed around by local politicians. Citizens should be denied their vote because of some politicians ego?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:04 AM 
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Snarky00 wrote:
Citizens should be denied their vote because of some politicians ego?


That sounds about par for most elections.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:31 AM 
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Also, as a Marylander and with plenty of friends in Va. I can attest that neither of us really wants DC.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:21 AM 
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And Michigan would probably dump Detroit into the great lakes if the state took it to a vote. People need to grow the fuck up and treat citizens like citizens. Those two states are the only two that are connected to dc, one of them needs to man up and accept them. They would end up getting more tax money for their state and would probably end up with another house rep or two because of dc's large population. The Senate, the House of Representatives, the White House, and any other government buildings can maintain control of their spaces but any residential land needs to be part of a state.


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it is not like people are forced to live in DC.


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the reason dc is not a state or part of a state is because that would make it or its state the de facto capital state, and in theory all states are supposed to be equal in the eyes of the constitution

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:02 AM 
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It's not like people are forced to send their kids to low-quality public schools, either. Does that mean we shouldn't try to make them better?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:27 AM 
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Fair point, randy. I think while that's a valid concern, it then becomes an argument of whether that supercedes the citizens of DC from having representation in Congress. I'd say the latter is more important, but it's not quite cut and dry either.


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i'm not against dc having a vote, but it means the house has to expand by about ten members, because if dc gets a vote then guam and pr and virgin islands and american samoa also should... so there is going to have to be offsetting house members, and the next logical step is the senate, which is basically the same argument over again

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:54 AM 
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The difference is that Puerto Rico, etc. have the option of pursuing statehood. D.C. can't.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:19 PM 
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randy wrote:
the reason dc is not a state or part of a state is because that would make it or its state the de facto capital state, and in theory all states are supposed to be equal in the eyes of the constitution

Exactly. A lot of people are looking at this only from a contemporary point of view, where we think of ourselves typically as Americans first, not as Californians, or Marylanders, or what have you. When the Constitution was written, the States were generally thought of as a kind of "mini-nation," so the idea of one State having the national capital was almost an insult to the other States.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:44 PM 
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So what? Every state has a capital city and that city shouldn't be getting special treatment. Would it really be so hard to have a 'capital state' without giving it special treatment? The alternative is punishing everyone that lives within 50 miles of the capital by taking away their right to vote.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:30 PM 
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Actually, the alternative is to give DC a rep in the House. Much simpler.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:56 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Can we give DC to Canada?
Or to China, as a piece treaty? and maybe though in Detroit just cause it sucks

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Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:58 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
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People who live in DC are just as American as the rest of us.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:01 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Fribur wrote:
People who live in DC are just as American as the rest of us.


Since when have you been an American?

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:14 AM 
Shelf is CAMPED!!
Shelf is CAMPED!!
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Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:17 AM
Posts: 1914
Location: Prescott, AZ
EQ1: Tyral
Devil wrote:
Since when have you been an American?

You're a fucking useless prick, you know that?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:49 AM 
10 Years? God im old!
10 Years? God im old!
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Location: Baltimore, MD
EQ1: Khameir
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EQ2: Khameir
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SWOR: Khameir
Is DC still the cocaine hub of the US?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:13 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Tyral, Devil and I have chatted for a few years now and we're on friendly terms. I don't know where exactly he was going with that, but given our past I assume he didn't mean it as mean-spirited as it may have come off.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:15 PM 
Shelf is CAMPED!!
Shelf is CAMPED!!
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Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:17 AM
Posts: 1914
Location: Prescott, AZ
EQ1: Tyral
Ah, that's good. It looked like he was just being a fuckhead.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:27 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
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Location: in the cold
I was just fucking with Fribur.. gesssssss Chill out....

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:04 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Fribur wrote:
Tyral, Devil and I have chatted for a few years now and we're on friendly terms. I don't know where exactly he was going with that, but given our past I assume he didn't mean it as mean-spirited as it may have come off.


I guess I need to clarify Fribur and my friendship, I have "known" Fribur for a few years now, I know what he used to do and what he does now for a job, I know how he stands on issues, and view points. Although I may not aways agree with him, I do have the utmost respect and admiration for him. I am glad to call him a friend.

As for you Tyral, you sir need to not be so quick to judge and call names. People who quickly start name calling show there lack of respect for them selfs which is very sad.

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Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:56 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
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Be careful, Devil-- this forum is definitely not for the thin-skinned. Just call him a fuckhead right back!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:59 PM 
Voodoo Doll
Voodoo Doll
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Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
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Or offer to meet up and fight. Are people still doing that? ;D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:03 PM 
Shelf is CAMPED!!
Shelf is CAMPED!!
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Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:17 AM
Posts: 1914
Location: Prescott, AZ
EQ1: Tyral
Devil wrote:
As for you Tyral, you sir need to not be so quick to judge and call names. People who quickly start name calling show there lack of respect for them selfs which is very sad.

It never fails to amuse me when someone makes an assertion like this. "If you call someone a name, it means you don't respect yourself." How ridiculous. I call you a fucktard, so you say that means I don't have any self-respect? Where do you come up with this shit? If I say "you have a poor grasp of spelling and grammar, and therefore enjoy the feel of pink satin sheets," does it make it true?

Don't say stupid shit and you won't be dissed for it, and don't assume everyone here knows about your relationship with everyone else. Your shit sounded rude and uncalled for, which is why I insulted you. If you'd taken a moment to add something to the post so that everyone else reading it would know that you were kidding, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So grow up, learn to communicate online, and stop pretending you're Dr. Phil.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:09 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
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He did help you a bit with your forum problem. That's gotta count for something, right? :p


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