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 Post subject: This sums it up nicely
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:05 PM 
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This essay sums up my feelings about where we are and where we are headed nicely:

Quote:
Commentary: This is not your father's country anymore

By Jack Cafferty

NEW YORK (CNN) -- I think this time, it's different. I have this uneasy feeling our country is in the process of changing forever, and not necessarily for the better -- unless our perspective changes with it.

I have kicked around longer than most people: I'm 66 years old. I remember well the '50s and early '60s, which were times of unbridled enthusiasm, prosperity and opportunity.

The American dream was a job, a house, a car. A modest, affordable house and a car that was most likely a Chevrolet, Ford or Plymouth.

People weren't in debt buying things they couldn't afford, and neither was the government. There were recessions along the way -- relatively mild downturns of short duration -- but nothing like this feels like it's going to be.

The interest on the national debt will approach $500 billion a year this year or next. Our country is sinking into the quicksand of insolvency as surely as the victims of subprime mortgages who have lost their jobs and their houses and watched their savings evaporate in the stock market decline.

The current national debt is soaring past $12 trillion. The costs of the stimulus packages and bailouts (and stimulus package is just another word for bailout) are being tacked on and passed on because they are being paid for with money we don't have.

We are staring at unfunded liabilities for Medicare and Social Security in the tens of trillions of dollars. Where's that money going to come from? We have to either raise taxes or cut benefits. There are no other options.

The baby boomers are starting to retire and will consume an ever larger share of these entitlement programs. They will also age in sufficient numbers to drive the political agenda for the foreseeable future. Think they're going to want less Social Security and less Medicare? Think again.

The generation coming along behind them that will be asked to pay for all this can't. There are not enough good jobs left in this country to pay those kinds of bills.

At the end of the day, we are going to have to settle for less. Less money, smaller houses, smaller cars and smaller dreams.

This is not your father's country anymore. And we had better all start getting used to it.

On the bright side, our history shows that times of shared national sacrifice have resulted in our greatest national achievements. It's been a very long time since we have been called upon to make any kind of serious sacrifice. We were overdue until one day in September, when Lehman Brothers collapsed. We're not overdue anymore.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:17 PM 
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And my Father's USA wasn't his father's USA and so on and so on. It's at though things change.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:15 PM 
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Saw it on CNN.com. Cafferty's a hack, as are most of the editorial writers there. So who gives a shit?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:30 PM 
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Wasn't Jack Caffertys father's America an America where he could get drunk and beat his kid? Ahh the golden years...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:41 PM 
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I'm pretty sure Jack Cafferty's father's America would have been one where No Irish Need Apply.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:47 PM 
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tl;dr

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:07 PM 
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tl;dr

And the WoW forums claim another poor soul unable or unwilling to read anything longer than a sentence or factoid :skewl:

Roor and whatnot.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:21 PM 
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I think it’s Funny that when anybody says something that is against the liberal mind set, things like these get said.

Tyral the Kithless wrote:
Saw it on CNN.com. Cafferty's a hack, as are most of the editorial writers there. So who gives a shit?


bearne wrote:
I'm pretty sure Jack Cafferty's father's America would have been one where No Irish Need Apply.


As I read it there is nothing in this article that is off the mark, and is not political in anyway. We as Americans have started to have the mindset that we deserve a huge house, we deserve health care, we deserve a new car or three and that nobody can fail. I personally don’t know why we have that mentality but it’s just plain stuipid. The only right you have as an American is to TRY to succeed. To succeed you have to work your ass off and to TRY to make your family’s life better, and maybe, just maybe you will get a house, a car, have some health care and beable to retier at 65.

randy wrote:
tl;dr

I LOL'ed at this


** Sits back and waits for the flamming to start

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:27 PM 
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Quote:
Sits back and waits for the flamming to start
I'm calling the all caps WoW-realm-forum-esque flame as the first salvo.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:01 PM 
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The 50 and 60's weren't fucking Beaver land. They sucked...for much of the population.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:37 AM 
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People weren't in debt buying things they couldn't afford, and neither was the government. There were recessions along the way -- relatively mild downturns of short duration -- but nothing like this feels like it's going to be.


Fiscal responsiblity starts with the government.

I don't know what Devil's problem is with liberals or any apparently non-conservative view. Perhaps it's his/her apparent lack of an education that would allow proper spelling and grammar and any sense.

Conservatives say the proper way to stimulate the economy and make things better is to cut taxes. Am I really supposed to believe that the best way to encourage the American people is to reduce the amount of money coming in to the government and increase the budget deficit? What example does this set?

Bobby Jindal himself said last night we need to cut taxes to make things better.

Quote:
That is why Republicans put forward plans to create jobs by lowering income tax rates for working families, cutting taxes for small businesses,


That's right, reduce the amount of money coming into the federal government.

Quote:
Who among us would ask our children for a loan, so we could spend money we do not have, on things we do not need?


Wait, doesn't increasing the budget deficit by reducing the amount of taxes coming in do just that? It has worked so well in Louisiana.

Quote:
In Louisiana, we took a different approach. Since I became governor, we cut more than 250 earmarks from our state budget. And to create jobs for our citizens, we cut taxes six times -- including the largest income tax cut in the history of our state.


And the result of those tax cuts??

Quote:
Louisiana lawmakers grappling with an expected $1.2 billion drop in state tax income next year could get a partial bailout from Washington, but state senators were told Thursday that the federal money won't fill all the gaps.


So they have gone from a budget surplus to a budget deficit. Am I missing where this looks like a brilliant idea? Add to that the fact that Jindal doesn't want to accept the bailout money. This guy is a genius!

Quote:
In 2006, the highest-income 20 percent of Louisiana residents (those with income above $90,000) paid 7.9 percent of their income in state and local taxes, while the bottom 20 percent paid 12.1 percent — an effective tax rate one and a half times as large.


Absolutely brilliant tax plan. Definitely one we should model our federal income tax system around.

I just don't understand how conservatives criticize the bailout because it spends so much money on things, yet they want to cut taxes and reduce the amount of income for the federal government. At least in the case of a bailout we get something for our money in the form of programs whose intention is to create some more jobs. Tax cuts can give more money to the family that is already working and bringing in money, but it really doesn't do that much to create jobs except in the case of significant tax cuts for businesses and mostly large businesses. That's the conservative's view though. Cut taxes for the big businesses and HOPEFULLY they will hire more workers, therefore trickling some of those cuts down to the little guy. That shit does not work.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:01 AM 
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I'm a little confused. Are some of you under the impression that Cafferty is a conservative? During this election cycle he has been one of the biggest Obama-lovers at CNN.

The point he's trying to make isn't conservative. It's generational. Last night, in a sickening display of smoke & mirrors, Obama tried to make the case that the deficits that he's running up are for the children. Nothing could be further from the truth. The country's debt has risen and will continue to rise because of a single generation, the baby boomers. They are the generation whose ridiculous spending habits and self-centered cries for more, more, more from government while being unwilling to shoulder the costs of that more have put this country at the mercy of China and others who, by simply sitting out an auction can destroy us. They are the generation who failed to save for retirement because they dislike thinking of themselves as aging so just put it off until they needed risky portfolios to even begin to put away enough to survive in retirement. Their retirements have started and will be picking up pace in the coming years, with little to no money to fund themselves.

Further, look at who votes and, more importantly who is running the country: Boomers. Obama, Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, etc are all boomers. We haven't seen a non-boomer since Clinton was elected. They aren't a generation who is known for sacrafice so don't expect them to start now. People call the post GenX generation the 'entitled' generation but it is and has always been the boomers.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:10 AM 
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Larreth wrote:
randy wrote:
tl;dr

And the WoW forums claim another poor soul unable or unwilling to read anything longer than a sentence or factoid :skewl:

Roor and whatnot.


i don't post at the wow forums, i have no interest in reading a fully quoted opinion by someone who is quite obviously a terrible writer (first paragraph)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:12 AM 
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Neither party has any sense of fiscal responsibility, yet Devil called the original comments "against the liberal mind set".

Hell, if anything, those comments are against the government mindset no matter which party you're in.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:15 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
I'm a little confused. Are some of you under the impression that Cafferty is a conservative?

Did anyone say that? No. He's a hack. So are the rest of the Left-Wing retards at CNN. Except for Glenn Beck, who appears sane but you can hear Crazy when he starts to really get going. He's not a hack, he's just out of his mind.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:28 AM 
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It's a shame that we had 8 years of neo-conservatives, and it's a shame that we're about to have 4-8 years of neo-liberalism. We went from over-compensating on conservative wish-lists to the other extreme.

Balance is important. Eventually, people like you and me are going to have to pay more taxes. I'm not against paying more taxes right now. If Obama had a plan for real self-sacrifice, and raise the tax rate to a rate higher than 18% of GDP, I'd be a lot more willing to listen. But he's not willing to take a hit on his popularity to do the painful things that are needed right now. I don't have a problem at all with the super rich paying more taxes. But I think there's a softer middle between $250k and some higher number that will impact the people running businesses that can't afford to pay more taxes.

Tax cuts don't work. They haven't worked under Bush and there's no reason to think they will work now. Distributing the payout in tiny increments in your paycheck isn't the magic bullet that will save the economy.

But neither is gratuitous spending. If spending always equaled ROI, we could simply spend 1 trillion dollars knowing we could always get 1.5 trillion dollars back.

Instead of tax cuts and spending that is largely driven by political reasons, I'd rather see tax hikes spread around, and targeted spending only on strategic programs. Infrastructure, health care, education, energy.

Last, the bailouts need to stop. At what point does GM just magically become a better company, that can sell cars again? I don't see it happening. So do we continue to put $25 billion every quarter into a company that really doesn't have a very good business model? I worked in newspapers for 12 years, finally got out. The business model is bad, newspapers are not going to survive as they are, and when you get right down to it, they just need to feel the pain of the times, restructure, become smaller and more efficient, and come out of it as better businesses. Where's the end? Does anyone really think TARP 2 is going to be the end, that spending 2 trillion dollars this time will fix the banks? I don't.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:44 AM 
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Quote:
We as Americans have started to have the mindset that we deserve a huge house, we deserve health care, we deserve a new car or three and that nobody can fail. I personally don’t know why we have that mentality but it’s just plain stuipid. The only right you have as an American is to TRY to succeed. To succeed you have to work your ass off and to TRY to make your family’s life better, and maybe, just maybe you will get a house, a car, have some health care and beable to retier at 65.


I don't entirely agree or disagree with that.

I do believe that, as the wealthiest nation in the world, we do owe our citizens fair, equitable and effective health care. That's not a luxury, it just makes sense.

As for the last part...I do believe that if you work hard, don't spend completely irresponsibly, and try to make your family's life better that you do deserve to be well off and be able to retire at a decent age.

But all too often that's not even the case, it's almost depressing to look ahead 40 years and see people that worked their ass off all their life and see that they'll probably just have to keep on working because of a shitty economy, or a company ganking their retirement funds, or their place of work cutting their strings a year before they're eligible for full retirement, etc etc.

The whole "work hard" mindset is great...but at the risk of sounding like a bank commercial, if I'm going to work hard I want my employer/government/etc to work hard for me. All too often that's just not the case.

It's no wonder we as a nation have become very individualistic and selfish...there's this feeling that you almost HAVE to be in order to survive.

Quote:
Last, the bailouts need to stop. At what point does GM just magically become a better company, that can sell cars again? I don't see it happening. So do we continue to put $25 billion every quarter into a company that really doesn't have a very good business model? I worked in newspapers for 12 years, finally got out. The business model is bad, newspapers are not going to survive as they are, and when you get right down to it, they just need to feel the pain of the times, restructure, become smaller and more efficient, and come out of it as better businesses. Where's the end? Does anyone really think TARP 2 is going to be the end, that spending 2 trillion dollars this time will fix the banks? I don't.


Yeah, I don't like this "How can we save X?" mentality that seems to be going around. If a business or field just isn't viable, shouldn't it just die? Isn't that what a free market and such is all about?

And especially in the area of the bailouts...imagine the slap in the face it is to some of those poor workers who "worked hard" and then got fired or laid off only to later find out that their tax dollars are going to go save the business that just cut their strings. That's gotta be frustrating.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:56 AM 
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I don't think Cafferty's a conservative. I think he's a hack.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:40 AM 
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Last night, in a sickening display of smoke & mirrors, Obama tried to make the case that the deficits that he's running up are for the children.


I just wanted to quote this again for lolz.

Lolz!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:47 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Last night, in a sickening display of smoke & mirrors, Obama tried to make the case that the deficits that he's running up are for the children. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding you here... what you're trying to say is, Obama is deliberately hiding the fact that he's screwing over future generations? That he knows he's doing it and that he's lying to the American public? Because that appears to be what you're saying, and I want to make sure I'm not misreading.
Quote:
Further, look at who votes and, more importantly who is running the country: Boomers. Obama, Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, etc are all boomers.

The funny thing is, not one of those you listed is a Baby Boomer. Most (Reid, Pelosi, McConnell) were born before the Boomer generation. Obama was born after, as most experts consider the cutoff to be 1960 (Obama was born in '61).

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 AM 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:12 AM 
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http://wbztv.com/video/?id=73411@wbz.dayport.com

Well, at least we're in good hands. "Do you know the website number". sigh


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:13 AM 
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Quote:
Definition of the boom years
The exact beginning and end of the baby boom can be debated. In the United States, demographers usually use 1946 to 1964, although the U.S. birthrate began to shoot up in 1941 and to decline after 1957. By 1948 the US population increase was back to the pre-Depression increase rate of about 1.5% per year.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:19 AM 
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Which means Pelosi, Reid, & McConnell aren't boomers. Damn! They are older than I'd thought. Oh well, it doesn't change my view of that generation as a whole or what they've done and will do to our country.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:22 AM 
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Obama isn't a boomer by most definitions either. Yes, some few (including the U.S. Census Bureau) view the boomer generation as lasting until 1964, but as I said, most experts put the cutoff at 1960.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:23 AM 
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Fribur wrote:
Quote:
Last night, in a sickening display of smoke & mirrors, Obama tried to make the case that the deficits that he's running up are for the children.


I just wanted to quote this again for lolz.

Lolz!


Please do explain how the current deficit-spending is good for the children... I'm all eyes.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:25 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Please do explain how the current deficit-spending is good for the children... I'm all eyes.

You still haven't explained whether you genuinely believe Obama is deliberately fucking over future generations and hiding it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:26 AM 
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Tyral the Kithless wrote:
Obama isn't a boomer by most definitions either. Yes, some few (including the U.S. Census Bureau) view the boomer generation as lasting until 1964, but as I said, most experts put the cutoff at 1960.


If it somehow makes you feel better to think of Obama as not a boomer and part of your generation, feel free.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:30 AM 
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Tyral the Kithless wrote:
Kulamiena wrote:
Please do explain how the current deficit-spending is good for the children... I'm all eyes.

You still haven't explained whether you genuinely believe Obama is deliberately fucking over future generations and hiding it.


I never said he was 'hiding it'. What I did say was that by using that little girl and her letter to congress asking for help he tried to reframe the stimulus package as all about the future. He failed to talk about the fact that she will be paying to service the debt he's issuing for the rest of her life, or the fact that while she is paying to service that debt she will also be trying to support the generation that racked it up while they retire comfortably because of their political clout.

He is most definitely fucking over future generations, and he is certainly not coming clean about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:32 AM 
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He failed to talk about the fact that she will be paying to service the debt he's issuing for the rest of her life, or the fact that while she is paying to service that debt she will also be trying to support the generation that racked it up while they retire comfortably because of their political clout.


That's basically been the status quo for a very long time, sadly. And yes, it kinda bothers me too.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:34 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
He is most definitely fucking over future generations, and he is certainly not coming clean about it.

To reiterate: do you think he's deliberately doing it? Do you think he signed that stimulus bill thinking "awesome, this will totally fuck up our nation for generations to come"? Because you come across as believing that he's doing things to intentionally screw over the future of our children.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:37 AM 
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Tyral, I'm not sure how anyone could twist what I've said to mean that he's setting out to destroy the future. I said exactly what I meant: he is reframing it to look good for the future when in fact it is not but is only good for his next election.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:41 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Tyral, I'm not sure how anyone could twist what I've said to mean that he's setting out to destroy the future. I said exactly what I meant: he is reframing it to look good for the future when in fact it is not but is only good for his next election.

If he knows it's bad for future generations, why would he sign it? Are you going to really stand by the argument that he's doing it to get reelected? Do you think the man is evil?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:42 AM 
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Well, honestly that's another discussion about politicians entirely, Tyral.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:43 AM 
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I take your point Kula, but I'm seeing much in the package that is for setting up our future economy for those future generations. We've got to make stuff again(energy tech), become more energy efficient(energy tech), and we've got to get healthcare off the backs of businesses so they can compete globally. All that is going to take investment now, and investment equals spending. The hope being the investments we're making now, will pay dividends for our future generations outweighing the costs of repayment. Will it? Fuck if I know, but I sure as hell hope so.

And yes, clearly Kula thinks Obama is evil, dumb question. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:48 AM 
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If you define 'evil' as 'typical politician who cannot look beyond his/her next election' then yeah, he is just that 'evil'. That stimulus package, even if it works, starts being nonstimulative and recessionary about 10 years out according to CBO. So does he know that it hurts long term? You bet he does.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:51 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Well, honestly that's another discussion about politicians entirely, Tyral.

What I'm trying to get at is that people in general, and specifically quite a few on this board, tend to take the stance that what they believe to be true is what everyone knows to be true. And therefore anyone that acts contrary to what they believe is doing so deliberately, knowing that what they're doing is wrong.

For instance, Kula said "Last night, in a sickening display of smoke & mirrors, Obama tried to make the case that the deficits that he's running up are for the children. Nothing could be further from the truth."

The implication made here is that Obama knows that what he is doing is bad for future generations, and that he's lying or hiding the truth about it. No effort is made to look at it from the other point of view, that perhaps Obama doesn't agree that raising the deficit now will negatively impact our children or their future. Or even that Obama knows more about the situation than most of us do, and that he's making what he feels is the best decision to address matters.

Just like with Bush, people tend toward the dramatic. They tend to imply heavily that the President is making decisions they "know" are bad and that they are lying to the American public to cover it up. It's tiring, and it's pointless, and people need to stop pretending that their opinions are somehow etched in stone and that everyone shares them.

As an aside...

Quote:
If it somehow makes you feel better to think of Obama as not a boomer and part of your generation, feel free.

Actually, that would make Obama a member of Generation X. By most accounts I'm a member of Generation Y, so it's not me trying to relate to the President. I was just pointing out that you were wrong.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:55 AM 
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It's amusing that Surcam thinks the items in the bill will move the needle at all for health care reform or energy independence. What are you seeing in the bill that no one else does, Surcam?

It's too small to fix the epic problems in health care, energy independence or infrastructure. And it's too big to be a step in the right direction, which seems to be the defense used when any criticism is directed at it. It's the largest spending bill ever, with a huge debt load in the mid-term. You can't use the baby steps excuse anymore.

It's exactly, 100%, like the bailout bills. The previous one wasn't enough and wasn't written properly. So here we are, about to do TARP 2. This stimulus bill isn't enough and we'll literally be talking about the next health care reform bill by the end of the year.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:56 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
If you define 'evil' as 'typical politician who cannot look beyond his/her next election' then yeah, he is just that 'evil'. That stimulus package, even if it works, starts being nonstimulative and recessionary about 10 years out according to CBO. So does he know that it hurts long term? You bet he does.

According to the CBO. And if the CBO stated otherwise, you'd find another group that agrees with you and you'd refer to their opinion instead. Because it is an opinion. It's a forecast, and I think we're all familiar enough with "forecasts" to know how wrong they generally end up being.

Nonetheless, you did oversimplify. You didn't say that Obama just can't see past his next election (which, I'll remind you, is a long fucking ways off). You said that he signed the stimulus knowing that it would hurt future generations and that he's trying to hide that from the American public. I would call that an evil act, and wholly separate from what you're trying to claim he's doing, which would be "typical politician shit."

I realize it's difficult to NOT be cynical, especially during times like this, but can you at all make an attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt? Why do you assume that someone who disagrees with you has corrupt motives?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:57 AM 
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Quote:
The implication made here is that Obama knows that what he is doing is bad for future generations, and that he's lying or hiding the truth about it. No effort is made to look at it from the other point of view, that perhaps Obama doesn't agree that raising the deficit now will negatively impact our children or their future. Or even that Obama knows more about the situation than most of us do, and that he's making what he feels is the best decision to address matters.


Well, it's easy to be a little detached when you're making decisions that don't directly hurt anyone now and when/if they do, it won't happen for a long time.

So yeah, I actually do find it easy to believe (Note: I don't think my belief makes it true.) that any politician would do something to benefit themselves now even if they know that somewhere down the road it might hurt someone in a financial manner.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:05 AM 
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Quote:
that perhaps Obama doesn't agree that raising the deficit now will negatively impact our children or their future
How exactly is raising the deficit now NOT going to negatively impact our children? You didn't make the point that Obama is planning to reduce it longterm, so I can only conclude that you think deficits are... good?

You should read this, it's an interesting article:

Like Having Medicare? Then Taxes Must Rise
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/busin ... hardt.html

Quote:
Eventually, the foreign investors lending the federal government billions of dollars every week — to make up for the current gap between taxes and spending — will need a reason to believe that those loans will be repaid. Otherwise, they will begin demanding much higher interest rates. That could create a new financial crisis.

“Something that’s unsustainable, like a dysfunctional relationship, can go on longer than you expect,” Mr. Orszag has said, “and then end faster and messier than you think.”


==

Quote:
Or even that Obama knows more about the situation than most of us do, and that he's making what he feels is the best decision to address matters.

And besides, if you really trust that Obama or any other president really has some sekret infoz that only he knows, and we should just trust the guy, after the last 8 years, then ... I don't know what to say. Really, it floors me that people can still believe that.

You could use that argument about Paulson and Bush, but obviously they did not. You could use that argument about Greenspan, but obviously he did not. At what point can we start looking skeptically, cynically even, at what our politicians are telling us?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:16 AM 
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Tyral the Kithless wrote:
I realize it's difficult to NOT be cynical, especially during times like this, but can you at all make an attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt? Why do you assume that someone who disagrees with you has corrupt motives?


Because he has never given me any reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. He hasn't responded to CBO's forecast to dispute it, he hasn't explained how he believes that the debt can be paid off by the country, he hasn't even attempted to give any sort of vision of what a future US economy looks like. I give nobody the benefit of my doubts. With no compelling argument beyond 'we need this today' I see no change going on in DC that looks beyond the next election.

Just looking at the position our debt level put us in with regards to China last week makes me ill. Human rights? Not important if standing up for them puts China buying our paper in doubt. How does that not piss off people?

In his first 35ish days in office, Obama has kept in place all of the power grab policies of W. That doesn't get him any good will from me. Or any trust. If he made even a single move towards bringing the country back to respecting the rule of law and the constitutional balance of power I might cut him some slack but he hasn't.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:27 AM 
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AP Fact Check on the speech last night:
Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama knows Americans are unhappy that the government could rescue people who bought mansions beyond their means.

But his assurance Tuesday night that only the deserving will get help rang hollow.

Even officials in his administration, many supporters of the plan in Congress and the Federal Reserve chairman expect some of that money will go to people who used lousy judgment.

The president skipped over several complex economic circumstances in his speech to Congress - and may have started an international debate among trivia lovers and auto buffs over what country invented the car.

A look at some of his assertions:

OBAMA: "We have launched a housing plan that will help responsible families facing the threat of foreclosure lower their monthly payments and refinance their mortgages. It's a plan that won't help speculators or that neighbor down the street who bought a house he could never hope to afford, but it will help millions of Americans who are struggling with declining home values."

THE FACTS: If the administration has come up with a way to ensure money only goes to those who got in honest trouble, it hasn't said so.

Defending the program Tuesday at a Senate hearing, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said it's important to save those who made bad calls, for the greater good. He likened it to calling the fire department to put out a blaze caused by someone smoking in bed.

"I think the smart way to deal with a situation like that is to put out the fire, save him from his own consequences of his own action but then, going forward, enact penalties and set tougher rules about smoking in bed."

Similarly, the head of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. suggested this month it's not likely aid will be denied to all homeowners who overstated their income or assets to get a mortgage they couldn't afford.

"I think it's just simply impractical to try to do a forensic analysis of each and every one of these delinquent loans," Sheila Bair told National Public Radio.

---

OBAMA: "And I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it."

THE FACTS: Depends what your definition of automobiles, is. According to the Library of Congress, the inventor of the first true automobile was probably Germany's Karl Benz, who created the first auto powered by an internal combustion gasoline engine, in 1885 or 1886. In the U.S., Charles Duryea tested what library researchers called the first successful gas-powered car in 1893. Nobody disputes that Henry Ford created the first assembly line that made cars affordable.

---

OBAMA: "We have known for decades that our survival depends on finding new sources of energy. Yet we import more oil today than ever before."

THE FACTS: Oil imports peaked in 2005 at just over 5 billion barrels, and have been declining slightly since. The figure in 2007 was 4.9 billion barrels, or about 58 percent of total consumption. The nation is on pace this year to import 4.7 billion barrels, and government projections are for imports to hold steady or decrease a bit over the next two decades.

---

OBAMA: "We have already identified $2 trillion in savings over the next decade."

THE FACTS: Although 10-year projections are common in government, they don't mean much. And at times, they are a way for a president to pass on the most painful steps to his successor, by putting off big tax increases or spending cuts until someone else is in the White House.

Obama only has a real say on spending during the four years of his term. He may not be president after that and he certainly won't be 10 years from now.

---

OBAMA: "Regulations were gutted for the sake of a quick profit at the expense of a healthy market. People bought homes they knew they couldn't afford from banks and lenders who pushed those bad loans anyway. And all the while, critical debates and difficult decisions were put off for some other time on some other day."

THE FACTS: This may be so, but it isn't only Republicans who pushed for deregulation of the financial industries. The Clinton administration championed an easing of banking regulations, including legislation that ended the barrier between regular banks and Wall Street banks. That led to a deregulation that kept regular banks under tight federal regulation but extended lax regulation of Wall Street banks. Clinton Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, later an economic adviser to candidate Obama, was in the forefront in pushing for this deregulation.

---

OBAMA: "In this budget, we will end education programs that don't work and end direct payments to large agribusinesses that don't need them. We'll eliminate the no-bid contracts that have wasted billions in Iraq, and reform our defense budget so that we're not paying for Cold War-era weapons systems we don't use. We will root out the waste, fraud and abuse in our Medicare program that doesn't make our seniors any healthier, and we will restore a sense of fairness and balance to our tax code by finally ending the tax breaks for corporations that ship our jobs overseas."

THE FACTS: First, his budget does not accomplish any of that. It only proposes those steps. That's all a president can do, because control over spending rests with Congress. Obama's proposals here are a wish list and some items, including corporate tax increases and cuts in agricultural aid, will be a tough sale in Congress.

Second, waste, fraud and abuse are routinely targeted by presidents who later find that the savings realized seldom amount to significant sums. Programs that a president might consider wasteful have staunch defenders in Congress who have fought off similar efforts in the past.

---

OBAMA: "Thanks to our recovery plan, we will double this nation's supply of renewable energy in the next three years."

THE FACTS: While the president's stimulus package includes billions in aid for renewable energy and conservation, his goal is unlikely to be achieved through the recovery plan alone.

In 2007, the U.S. produced 8.4 percent of its electricity from renewable sources, including hydroelectric dams, solar panels and windmills. Under the status quo, the Energy Department says, it will take more than two decades to boost that figure to 12.5 percent.

If Obama is to achieve his much more ambitious goal, Congress would need to mandate it. That is the thrust of an energy bill that is expected to be introduced in coming weeks.

---

OBAMA: "Over the next two years, this plan will save or create 3.5 million jobs."

THE FACTS: This is a recurrent Obama formulation. But job creation projections are uncertain even in stable times, and some of the economists relied on by Obama in making his forecast acknowledge a great deal of uncertainty in their numbers.

The president's own economists, in a report prepared last month, stated, "It should be understood that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error."

Beyond that, it's unlikely the nation will ever know how many jobs are saved as a result of the stimulus. While it's clear when jobs are abolished, there's no economic gauge that tracks job preservation. The estimates are based on economic assumptions of how many jobs would be lost without the stimulus.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:46 AM 
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Quote:
If it somehow makes you feel better to think of Obama as not a boomer and part of your generation, feel free.


Actually, you could lump Obama into "Generation Jones" which would put him between the Boomers and Generation X.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:02 PM 
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Generations, feh. Its only a model people. Its not like everything changed on dec 31 1960(4). Its attempt to make a dichotomy out of a continuum. There's a new generation starting right now, and right now, and right now.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:42 PM 
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Yeah, I've always hated that...the whole generation things.

People are born every day, and into different circumstances and families. It's not like 50,000,000 people are all born on the same day in some factory and distributed via UPS.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:58 PM 
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Think of it as less of being born into it, and more having to do with the overall way things "feel" at the time most people hit maturity.

We can call this one Generation Change. Or Generation Shitty Cartoons.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:23 PM 
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Yeah, I can understand that...what I object to are the attempts at always homogenizing everyone that belongs to a "generation" into one big monolithic entity that thinks, feels and behaves the same. It's silly.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:36 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Yeah, I can understand that...what I object to are the attempts at always homogenizing everyone that belongs to a "generation" into one big monolithic entity that thinks, feels and behaves the same. It's silly.

I haven't seen anyone attempt to "homogenize" generations. Your assertion that they do is silly. Rather, distinct generations tend to have similar cultural experiences. Someone born in the 60's is typically (note I said TYPICALLY) going to have more in common with another individual born in the 60's than they will with someone born in the 90's. World events and technology are two of the key reasons for this, as they change dramatically between generations.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:37 PM 
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Ok, it never happens, you got me.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:45 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Ok, it never happens, you got me.

I didn't say that either. But YOU were the one saying it always happens. Direct fucking quote if you want it. Just give the word. Or scroll up and read yourself ranting about something that isn't true.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:50 PM 
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I'm pretty sure the "always" was a blatant exaggeration for effect. Because, you know, if we took it at just the strictest of definitions the way you seem to be trying to do, we'd all be walking around all day every day doing it every second. Always!

Either that or you've vanquished my dastardly plan, sir of awesome. Blast. Mr. Obama helped me craft it, he said that it would be best for the future of the board.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:52 PM 
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Don't argue semantics with Bov. It's like his porn.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:53 PM 
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This isn't semantics, sir.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:54 PM 
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(See what I did there?)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:55 PM 
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I totally made you do that.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:55 PM 
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You did!

But we both won in the end.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:58 PM 
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Yeah except I didn't blow my load all over my laptop like you just did.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:00 PM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
I'm pretty sure the "always" was a blatant exaggeration for effect.

I'm not sure what effect you were going for. Misleading? Untruth? Outright lie? Does it fall into one of those categories?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:00 PM 
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Hey, I get excited. =/


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