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 Post subject: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:58 AM 
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You have got to be shitting me. First talks of the Fed taking over banks
and now this???

AP Interview: Transportation secretary says taxing how much we drive may replace gasoline tax
Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood says he wants to consider taxing motorists based on how many miles they drive rather than how much gasoline they burn...
"We should look at the vehicular miles program where people are actually clocked on the number of miles that they traveled,"

...
A tentative plan in Massachusetts to use GPS chips in vehicles to charge motorists by the mile has drawn complaints from drivers who say it's an Orwellian intrusion by government into the lives of citizens. Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers.

...

The system would require all cars and trucks be equipped with global satellite positioning technology, a transponder, a clock and other equipment to record how many miles a vehicle was driven, whether it was driven on highways or secondary roads, and even whether it was driven during peak traffic periods or off-peak hours.

The device would tally how much tax motorists owed depending upon their road use. Motorists would pay the amount owed when it was downloaded, probably at gas stations at first, but an alternative eventually would be needed.


WTF?!?! If you think the cost of goods is high now, how much would they go up if the shipping companies were charged a mileage tax in addition to increasing fuel costs? An 8% jump in inflation is already pushing the cost of goods up, and with the record spending the prez has just signed due to push inflation even higher this is just wrong.

And this was mentioned by a so-called Republican in Obama's Cabinet!

When the hell did I wake up in in the People's Republic of America?


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:01 AM 
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Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers.

I'm very open to the argument that this is a dumb idea on the macro level, but this right here is why it's extremely dumb on the micro level.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:14 AM 
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agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:15 AM 
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To say this is a stupid idea is being generous. This is completely backassward.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:34 AM 
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I don't think you'll find anyone defending this stupid shit. That idea is truly retarded.

I also think the GOP has just been repeatedly shooting themselves in the face lately. They're trying to present themselves as fiscally responsible and instead they're coming off as vindictive cockblockers.

I know more than one person so *angry* at the GOP bullshit in CA over the budget that they're leaving the republican party.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:51 AM 
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Wow I would not want that in my car, I dont even want a ON Star in my car. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:09 PM 
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I hadn't thought of that intially, but you're absolutely right. Giving government the ability to track how far you travel and where under the pretense of a tax? No thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:23 PM 
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When the hell did I wake up in in the People's Republic of America?


Tuesday, January 21st.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:24 PM 
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Errrr.... Wednesday, January 21st...

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:30 PM 
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Xkhanx wrote:
Errrr.... Wednesday, January 21st...


No, Bush started the bailout, so you'd have to go earlier with your claim. Would you like to try again in the second round where the points really stack up? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:51 PM 
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Let's see a nice checklist.
1. Nationalization of banks CHECK
2. GPS tracking of personal movement CHECK
3. HR45 which includes suspension of 4 amendment rights, DNA testing, and fingerprinting of gun owners CHECK
4. Patriot Act CHECK
5. Salary caps for CEO's CHECK
Yep it's beginning to look like we're becoming a police state. More specifically a socialist police state. In four years as you wonder what happened to your rights. I will still proudly say I voted for McCain.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:04 PM 
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Quote:
Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers.


Not that I'm defending the idea, but this seems like somewhat of a poor argument in itself. I dunno who these "other motorists" are, but when you're squeezed penny for penny in this economy, it's quite possible that it would make it *more* unlikely AFTER said tax you would still want to drive something that costs more.

Put people in an economic pickle and they often strangely start making more frugal choices(not everyone, but probably the majority) simply to survive.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:09 PM 
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5. Salary caps for CEO's CHECK

For CEOs that are borrowing your money because their companies failed and are asking you to help them out. Do you guys like to ignore stuff so you can feel worse about your country or what? :P

Really, the bank puts more 'buts' on us before they enter into negotiations with so we can keep our house ("Hmm, you are spending too much on gas, maybe you should lower you spending to get better results...") than the 'buts' we are putting on these people so they can use millions of our dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:31 PM 
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Most of gas taxes should be going to road repairs. Most road repairs are are necessary because of general road wear. The further you drive and the heavier your vehicle the more you as an individual are causing road wear. The amount of gas you use has very little to do with the amount of road wear you cause. That is why this tax 'makes more sense'.

That being said, the government can put a gps device on my car if they convict me of a felony and not a minute sooner.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:36 PM 
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They'll make the switch over to taxing mileage and then slap a carbon tax on your gas usage, justifying it by saying one is to repair roads and the other to 'go green'.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:47 PM 
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Wakkagud wrote:
Let's see a nice checklist.
1. Nationalization of banks CHECK
2. GPS tracking of personal movement CHECK
3. HR45 which includes suspension of 4 amendment rights, DNA testing, and fingerprinting of gun owners CHECK
4. Patriot Act CHECK
5. Salary caps for CEO's CHECK
Yep it's beginning to look like we're becoming a police state. More specifically a socialist police state. In four years as you wonder what happened to your rights. I will still proudly say I voted for McCain.


You forgot about the the current bills to remove guns from the hands of citizens.

Definition of socialism:
A political philosophy advocating substantial public involvement, through government ownership, in the means of production and distribution

Definition of police state:
A country that maintains repressive control over the people by means of police (especially secret police)

Snarky00 wrote:
Most of gas taxes should be going to road repairs. Most road repairs are are necessary because of general road wear. The further you drive and the heavier your vehicle the more you as an individual are causing road wear. The amount of gas you use has very little to do with the amount of road wear you cause. That is why this tax 'makes more sense'.

Then semi trucks would pay the most in taxes, and the price of our goods would be to high of us to buy, stores would close, food and other items would not be available, society would crash, there would be mass riots and general chaos in society.

The best thing that government could do is get the FUCK out of the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:05 PM 
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Wakkagud wrote:
Let's see a nice checklist.
1. Nationalization of banks CHECK
2. GPS tracking of personal movement CHECK
3. HR45 which includes suspension of 4 amendment rights, DNA testing, and fingerprinting of gun owners CHECK
4. Patriot Act CHECK
5. Salary caps for CEO's CHECK
Yep it's beginning to look like we're becoming a police state. More specifically a socialist police state. In four years as you wonder what happened to your rights. I will still proudly say I voted for McCain.


Pretty much nothing on your list is new since Jan 21st. You can't actually believe that the police state which accelerated exponentially under GWB would suddenly stop short and reverse course had McCain been elected.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:06 PM 
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Semi trucks are the ones fucking up the roads, why shouldn't they fix what they are breaking.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:09 PM 
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"Then semi trucks would pay the most in taxes, and the price of our goods would be to high of us to buy, stores would close, food and other items would not be available, society would crash, there would be mass riots and general chaos in society.

The best thing that government could do is get the FUCK out of the way."

You're absolutely right! Screw Eisenhauer, that socialist fuck! Who the hell did he think he was, the Interstate Highway System on us, anyway?!?! Huh?!?!

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:12 PM 
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Check out another thing the republicans are trying to foist on us.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10168114-38.html


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:19 PM 
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For the record, my response to forcing GPS / tracking devices into our cars is also "Oh, Hell no."

Of course, I say that now... A decade ago, I would have said that about personal tracking. Now you would have to pry my cellphone out of my cold, dead hands.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:22 PM 
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Snarky00 wrote:
Check out another thing the republicans are trying to foist on us.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10168114-38.html


If I'm reading it correctly it would be no different than police being able to access cell phone records/what towers you hit. Such information requires a warrant currently to access those records.

The flip side of the coin on these issues is such records can be used to demonstrate a person's innocence. Advances in technology are keeping a lot of innocent people OUT of prison.

I'm not suggesting this specific proposal is a good one. I'm not even convinced it is. It's not always an invasion of our privacy though when we're using technology by which we have no expectations thereof.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:42 PM 
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I never laid blame specifically at Uncle Barry and a large part does belong to GWB. But by and large over the last 30 some years we have been gradually declining into a socialist police state. It's only in the last 8 years has it accelerated into what we have now.
OUR government holds itself above the very laws it makes and adds burdensome new laws to us. They do not care what we want or truly need. It is only their own selfish agenda that drives them for more power. New laws made to make us feel good and not actually solve the problem. Why not sell "Transportation Bonds" for much needed road improvements instead of this intrusion into our privacy. Unless they want to make and end run and monitor us secretly. We already wiretap suspected terrorists. What's to keep them from accessing that same database to track us for "suspicious" activities.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:50 PM 
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To everyone who keeps responding "McCain would have been worse":

Your 'argument' has as much validity as me saying "McCain would have been better".

Want to try a different defense of current policy that doesn't depend on using our imaginations?


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:03 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
To everyone who keeps responding "McCain would have been worse"

Take some time and quote people please. I only see one person this could remotely apply to, and it's weak at best.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:12 PM 
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bearne wrote:
"Then semi trucks would pay the most in taxes, and the price of our goods would be to high of us to

You're absolutely right! Screw Eisenhauer, that socialist fuck! Who the hell did he think he was, the Interstate Highway System on us, anyway?!?! Huh?!?!


Here is the problem with that, the Bill was to build 65,000-km of Interstate Highways not to fund there maintenance, in 1992 when the "last" part of the system was completed. The Highway trust fund should have been shut down in 1999. At which point the Gas tax should have gone down, but the Clinton Administration thought it was best to increase it and put provisions in to allow the funds to be use for non-highway use, that is the major problem of the gas tax at both the Federal and state level.

Snarky00 wrote:
Semi trucks are the ones fucking up the roads, why shouldn't they fix what they are breaking.

They already pay the largest part of the Trust fund, this is why our prices are so high. Semi Trucks are not the most efficient way to transport good accost states.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:33 PM 
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SurcamStances wrote:
Take some time and quote people please. I only see one person this could remotely apply to, and it's weak at best.


Sure.

Venen:
Quote:
I can only but shiver at the thought of what McCain would have done, given the GOP's spending track record over the last 8 years.


Bearne:
Quote:
Pretty much nothing on your list is new since Jan 21st. You can't actually believe that the police state which accelerated exponentially under GWB would suddenly stop short and reverse course had McCain been elected.


Those are the two that struck a nerve today, there are others that make the implication but not as explicitly but as I know you wouldn't accept them I won't bother.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:53 PM 
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kudos to Uncle Barry for his decision.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090220/ap_ ... ileage_tax

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama will not adopt a policy to tax motorists based on how many miles they drive instead of how much gasoline they buy, his chief spokesman said Friday. Press secretary Robert Gibbs commented after Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told The Associated Press that he wants to consider the idea, which has been proposed in some states but has angered many drivers.

"It is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration," Gibbs told reporters, when asked for the president's thoughts about the policy and LaHood's remarks.

Gasoline taxes that for nearly half a century have paid for the federal share of highway and bridge construction can no longer be counted on to raise enough money to keep the nation's transportation system moving, LaHood told the AP in an interview Thursday.

"We should look at the vehicular miles program where people are actually clocked on the number of miles that they traveled," the former Illinois Republican lawmaker said Thursday.

LaHood spokeswoman Lori Irving said Friday that the secretary was speaking of the idea only in general terms, not as something being implemented as administration policy.

Most transportation experts see a vehicle miles traveled tax as a long-term solution, but Congress is being urged to move in that direction now by funding pilot projects.

The idea also is gaining ground in several states. Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island are talking about such programs, and a North Carolina panel suggested in December the state start charging motorists a quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.

A tentative plan in Massachusetts to use GPS chips in vehicles to charge motorists by the mile has drawn complaints from drivers who say it's an Orwellian intrusion by government into the lives of citizens. Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers.

Besides a VMT tax, more tolls for highways and bridges and more government partnerships with business to finance transportation projects are other funding options, LaHood, one of two Republicans in Obama's Cabinet, said in the interview Thursday.

"What I see this administration doing is this — thinking outside the box on how we fund our infrastructure in America," he said.

LaHood said he firmly opposes raising the federal gasoline tax in the current recession.

The program that funds the federal share of highway projects is part of a surface transportation law that expires Sept. 30. Last fall, Congress made an emergency infusion of $8 billion to make up for a shortfall between gas tax revenues and the amount of money promised to states for their projects. The gap between money raised by the gas tax and the cost of maintaining the nation's highway system and expanding it to accommodate population growth is forecast to continue to widen.

Among the reasons for the gap is a switch to more fuel-efficient cars and a decrease in driving that many transportation experts believe is related to the economic downturn. Electric cars and alternative-fuel vehicles that don't use gasoline are expected to start penetrating the market in greater numbers.

A blue-ribbon national transportation commission is expected to release a report next week recommending a VMT.

The system would require all cars and trucks be equipped with global satellite positioning technology, a transponder, a clock and other equipment to record how many miles a vehicle was driven, whether it was driven on highways or secondary roads, and even whether it was driven during peak traffic periods or off-peak hours.

The device would tally how much tax motorists owed depending upon their road use. Motorists would pay the amount owed when it was downloaded, probably at gas stations at first, but an alternative eventually would be needed.

Rob Atkinson, chairman of the National Surface Transportation Infrastructure Financing Commission, the blue-ribbon group that is developing future transportation funding options, said moving to a national VMT would take about a decade.

Privacy concerns are based more on perception than any actual risk, Atkinson said. The satellite information would be beamed one way to the car and driving information would be contained within the device on the car, with the amount of the tax due the only information that's downloaded, he said.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:54 PM 
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Oh, come on, Kula. Absolutely *nothing* in my statement addressed whether or not McCain would have been either better or worse than Obama. I was responding specifically to a post that

a) placed the blame for bank nationalization, the Patriot Act, GPS tracking of citizens, etc. on Obama
b) implied that none of those things would be existence *right now* if McCain had been elected

when clearly the majority of the actions listed had been taken under the Bush administration.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:58 PM 
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I do not see that quote from Venen in this thread, so no clue where you're pulling that from. The bearne quote was the weak one I was referring to.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:14 PM 
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Add me to that list please.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:18 PM 
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Sounds like the dude was talking off the cuff. According to Fox News, of all places, the Administration has fully smacked down the idea:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first10 ... les-driven

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:43 PM 
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I can understand being upset if they were to tax you based on your mileage, but I really wonder about you guys when you get in a panic because "they can track where I go". Sounds like panic for panic's sake. Or maybe I just lead a dull life so I don't give a fuck if the government tracks my every move. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:26 PM 
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Quote:
To everyone who keeps responding "McCain would have been worse":

Your 'argument' has as much validity as me saying "McCain would have been better".

Want to try a different defense of current policy that doesn't depend on using our imaginations?


I think it's pretty much just me saying he would definitively be worse, so there's hardly an "everyone". Still, I very much stand by it. One does not need an imagination to suggest that he would follow through the very policies that he promised he would, and that he would continue his track record of supporting Bush's policies and the spending practices that he endorsed by voting for.

One can certainly take away that he probably got the message that people wanted "change", but what kind of change? They voted for Obama, and he promised much spending even in his campaign. As did McCain, even though he pretended to be the moderate spender(his track record suggested otherwise, hi). If we are to assume that he got THAT message of change, I think it's safe to assume you would have seen a good deal of spending on his part if not even more given his record on spending.

Hardly certain by any means, but a safe bet if we decide to take history into account.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:48 AM 
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Ok, so let me try to recap..

Bailout originates with Bush.
Patriot Act and other such nonsense originates with Bush.
"Driving Tax" comes from GOP side.
Obama to blame for all of it.

That about cover it? Jolly good show, ol' chaps.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:30 AM 
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First, Venen, I stand by my objection. YOU may think you can see into an alternate universe but most people can't.

Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Ok, so let me try to recap..

Bailout originates with Bush.
Patriot Act and other such nonsense originates with Bush.
"Driving Tax" comes from GOP side.
Obama to blame for all of it.

That about cover it? Jolly good show, ol' chaps.


Bailout originated under Bush, was passed by a Democratic Congress, and supported by Obama. His hands are not clean here, nobody's are.

Patriot Act also originated under Bush, was passed with the complicity of Democrats in a Republican Congress, and Obama has rescinded none of it.

I'll give you the 'driving tax' bs.

I have never 'blamed' Obama for any of this mess, although he was certainly part of the problem. I just find it ridiculous that to point out any flaws, even fairly large ones, gets a reaction of "Well, Bush did it and McCain would have continued it" when Obama certainly didn't raise his voice in objection to these policies you are all so eager to blame on only Bush.

To repeat: Nobody in DC, including St. Obama, is guiltless here.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:01 AM 
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Quote:
To repeat: Nobody in DC, including St. Obama, is guiltless here.


That I'll agree with.

It's just when people say things like:

Quote:
Yep it's beginning to look like we're becoming a police state. More specifically a socialist police state. In four years as you wonder what happened to your rights. I will still proudly say I voted for McCain.


Firmly suggesting that Obama is somehow the sole cause of everything bad.

Or:

Quote:
Quote:
When the hell did I wake up in in the People's Republic of America?


Tuesday, January 21st.


Really, I think even we can agree that it's just silliness when people start talking like this.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:06 AM 
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People latch on to anything to reinforce their otherwise unjustifiable hatred of Obama. It's just like all the fucking morons in the GE who thought he was a Muslim, or a terrorist, or Arabic, or not a US-citizen, or didn't salute the flag, etc and so on...


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:00 PM 
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xskycrasherx wrote:
People latch on to anything to reinforce their otherwise unjustifiable hatred of Obama. It's just like all the fucking morons in the GE who thought he was a Muslim, or a terrorist, or Arabic, or not a US-citizen, or didn't salute the flag, etc and so on...


W.T.F. Are you talking about? this seams like a very random statement...


*is confused*

Kulamiena wrote:

To repeat: Nobody in DC, including St. Obama, is guiltless here.


This made me LOL, and think of this

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:47 PM 
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Quote:
W.T.F. Are you talking about? this seams like a very random statement...


Random? No, it's pretty spot-on for this thread right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:27 PM 
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Quote:
First, Venen, I stand by my objection. YOU may think you can see into an alternate universe but most people can't.


When I can peer into that alternate universe, I'll let you know. You're reading far too much into "McCain would have been better". There is just a slight difference between "I can only but shiver at the thought of what McCain would have done, given the GOP's spending track record over the last 8 years.", and saying with certainty that there is no doubt he would have done it. By pointing to the track record, it's rather implicit that I'm saying it's probable, not inevitable.

Quote:
Bailout originated under Bush, was passed by a Democratic Congress, and supported by Obama. His hands are not clean here, nobody's are.


I thought it was a good call for the most part, regardless of whether or not it was Bush who did it. That being said - this, like the Patriot Act, probably had some things in it that I think a lot of us didn't agree with - including Obama. There are also some necessary provisions in the Patriot Act for fighting terrorism(i.e. money laundering, some of the border provisions, cohesion of intelligence), even if the majority of it is bad. It may make some sense for Obama to conclude that it's worthwhile to wait just a little longer before eradicating it completely, considering we've gone so long with it and need a bit more time to come up with a replacement idea(amending it may cause a completely new stir altogether, but it's possible).

But it did indeed originate with Bush, and while the majority of Democrats may have went along with it, it doesn't mean they all agreed with all the provisions within it. In the end, they may well have made a bad call in agreeing to allow all of it in, but I don't believe that makes them 100 percent equally guilty as the creators of the bill itself.

Not guiltless, to be sure, but not quite first-degree.

The same goes for the bailout bill.

That's precisely why I say it probably would've been worse with McCain. The Democrats may well have gone along with it, but at least they didn't(so far) originate bills as bad as that thus far.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:35 PM 
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Venen wrote:
The Democrats may well have gone along with it, but at least they didn't(so far) originate bills as bad as that thus far.


They passes the first bailout, TARP, while Bush was still President. This so-called stimulus bill was written and passed completely by the Democrats in Congress today.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:01 PM 
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Quote:
They passes the first bailout, TARP, while Bush was still President. This so-called stimulus bill was written and passed completely by the Democrats in Congress today.


I was referring to most of the things Wakkagud enumerated, as well as what Bovinity posted.

Though, my understanding is that TARP originated with Henry Paulson, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just suggesting that I haven't seen anything quite as bad as some of the legislation Bush helped get through yet. I thought the both the first bailout and the stimulus package were good ideas, though I had some differences with the calls on how much and who got the money on the first bailout.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:45 AM 
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I think a few people have missed my point. And that is neither the Republicans or Democrats are blameless for this mess. All along the line both parties have screwed us over. Bush he wasn't an idiot but he sure was a terrible communicator and a RINO. Domestically he was awful and his foreign policy was haphazard. I know there's quite a bit of things he couldn't disclose to the American public. But at the same time he should've kept us in the loop more.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:59 AM 
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Wakkagud wrote:
5. Salary caps for CEO's CHECK

Dude, seriously, don't throw shit out there like this and not expect people to point out that IF YOU TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO PROP UP YOUR FAILING BUSINESS, THE GOVERNMENT GETS TO TELL YOU HOW TO SPEND IT.

Fuck, I'm tired of you partisan cocksuckers constantly trying to twist shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:19 AM 
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Quote:
Dude, seriously, don't throw shit out there like this and not expect people to point out that IF YOU TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO PROP UP YOUR FAILING BUSINESS, THE GOVERNMENT GETS TO TELL YOU HOW TO SPEND IT.
I think the interesting thought experiment about pay limits is this:

What would happen if the people we are shitting on.. the traders on wall street... Simply went on strike?

You forget that we bailed out banks as much for OUR benefit as for the banks. We didn't give them money to be nice, we gave them money to stave off a complete collapse, which would be a whole lot worse for you with your meager 401k than it would be for a multi-millionaire executive or trader.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:26 AM 
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joxur wrote:
What would happen if the people we are shitting on.. the traders on wall street... Simply went on strike?


THINK ABOUT THE TRADERS! WHAT ABOUT THE TRADERS?!!? THOSE POOR, POOR SOULS.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:09 AM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Quote:
Dude, seriously, don't throw shit out there like this and not expect people to point out that IF YOU TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO PROP UP YOUR FAILING BUSINESS, THE GOVERNMENT GETS TO TELL YOU HOW TO SPEND IT.


Given that attitude are you ok with the following statement?
IF YOU TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO PROP UP YOUR FAILING FAMILY, THE GOVERNMENT GETS TO TELL YOU HOW TO SPEND IT.

Could be interesting...


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:18 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Quote:
Dude, seriously, don't throw shit out there like this and not expect people to point out that IF YOU TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO PROP UP YOUR FAILING BUSINESS, THE GOVERNMENT GETS TO TELL YOU HOW TO SPEND IT.


Given that attitude are you ok with the following statement?
IF YOU TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO PROP UP YOUR FAILING FAMILY, THE GOVERNMENT GETS TO TELL YOU HOW TO SPEND IT.

Could be interesting...


That already happens. Or did you think social programs just gave people cash and told them 'Good luck'?

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:41 AM 
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Yeah, Tarot? What dictates have you gotten about that huge $13/wk govt. handout? Or the first time homebuyer's refundable tax credit? Or any of the huge cash handouts coming out of the stimulus package? The COBRA premiums? Or do only corporate handouts mean governmental control?


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:12 AM 
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Kula, I would help out and try to articulate what Tarot's point is, but I find that I simply can't. Perhaps she means food stamps. Apples and oranges, if so.

Regardless, the point isn't about wasting taxpayer dollars. If it were, there would be outrage at Congress' junkets and retreats, the ridiculously expensive inauguration (more than 3 times the cost of the previous one) and all of the unnecessary expense in the spending bill. Instead, it's not the waste. It's WHO'S wasting it.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:32 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Yeah, Tarot? What dictates have you gotten about that huge $13/wk govt. handout? Or the first time homebuyer's refundable tax credit? Or any of the huge cash handouts coming out of the stimulus package? The COBRA premiums? Or do only corporate handouts mean governmental control?

Those "government handouts" aren't to "prop up" someone's family, so your comparison fails on every level.

And Tarot is absolutely right, if you go to the government with your hand out, even as a private citizen, they tell you how to spend the money they give you. They don't micromanage it, but there are heavy restrictions on what you can use food stamps for, or what you can get with WIC support.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:34 AM 
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When you borrow money from someone, there is almost always stipulations. I don't understand why this is hard to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:50 PM 
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Tyral the Kithless wrote:
Those "government handouts" aren't to "prop up" someone's family, so your comparison fails on every level.


They aren't? What exactly are they for if not to enable families to continue to pay their bills?

Tyral the Kithless wrote:
And Tarot is absolutely right, if you go to the government with your hand out, even as a private citizen, they tell you how to spend the money they give you. They don't micromanage it, but there are heavy restrictions on what you can use food stamps for, or what you can get with WIC support.


Do you really not understand what a refundable tax credit is?

As for Fribur's contention that it's the 'loan' designation that makes the difference: the money the government is handing out to parties both public & private is most definitely a loan, it just won't be paid by the same people who benefited from it.

I'm not defending the automakers or the banks that are taking government money. In a perfect world, where government had the necessary assets to cover their obligations under the FDIC, those banks would have been allowed to fail and the automakers forced into bankruptcy. But it isn't a perfect world. Is it really too much to ask that people look at all forms of government handouts as equal? You want government to dictate how money given to industry is used, as well as any other money those idustries have, why not expect the same kind of control over citizens who are given government money?


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:40 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Tyral the Kithless wrote:
Those "government handouts" aren't to "prop up" someone's family, so your comparison fails on every level.


They aren't? What exactly are they for if not to enable families to continue to pay their bills?

Tyral the Kithless wrote:
And Tarot is absolutely right, if you go to the government with your hand out, even as a private citizen, they tell you how to spend the money they give you. They don't micromanage it, but there are heavy restrictions on what you can use food stamps for, or what you can get with WIC support.


Do you really not understand what a refundable tax credit is?

As for Fribur's contention that it's the 'loan' designation that makes the difference: the money the government is handing out to parties both public & private is most definitely a loan, it just won't be paid by the same people who benefited from it.

I'm not defending the automakers or the banks that are taking government money. In a perfect world, where government had the necessary assets to cover their obligations under the FDIC, those banks would have been allowed to fail and the automakers forced into bankruptcy. But it isn't a perfect world. Is it really too much to ask that people look at all forms of government handouts as equal? You want government to dictate how money given to industry is used, as well as any other money those idustries have, why not expect the same kind of control over citizens who are given government money?

I don't need government handouts to pay my bills. Yet the government is still sending me money as part of the stimulus. You know what that money is actually for? It's to help "stimulate" the economy by giving people more spending money. That's it. It's not to help us pay our bills. It's not a handout. I didn't ask for the money. Most people, in fact, did not ask for it.

The major difference here is that the corporations we're talking about NEED the money that they've ASKED FOR. If they don't get it, they'll fail. Simple as that. They didn't run their businesses properly and so now they need help. You can't compare that to a family receiving $14 a paycheck from the stimulus. We don't need that money. To imply that we do is ridiculous and insulting.

The comparison to families getting food stamps or WIC or other similar assistance is more appropriate, and in those cases the government does tell them how to use the handout.

So instead of being deliberately obtuse, why don't you fucking pay attention to reality? Quit trying to twist shit to support your plainly idiotic stance and face up to the fact that your comparisons are exceedingly lame.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:48 PM 
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So don't take it. Turn around and donate the money that IS being handed to you (without conditions attached) to a charity. But don't pretend to be insulted by me when Obama is touting the money to help 'hurting Americans'. If the money insults you take it up with him. Be sure not to apply for those new govt.-backed mortgages at today's interest rates, or for COBRA premiums if you lose your job, or for extended unemployment if you lose your job, or for that money to make your home more 'green', or for the money to buy a first home, or... shall I continue?


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:02 PM 
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Quote:
I don't need government handouts to pay my bills. Yet the government is still sending me money as part of the stimulus. You know what that money is actually for? It's to help "stimulate" the economy by giving people more spending money. That's it. It's not to help us pay our bills. It's not a handout. I didn't ask for the money. Most people, in fact, did not ask for it.
The government isn't telling you how to spend that $10 (it's not $14 anymore, moron), though. You can spend the money, save the money, or give it to a hooker for a BJ. So what's your point, again...?

Intent doesn't matter. If you want that whopping $10 a week to stimulate, you need to do more to make sure it does. Likewise, the next round of TARP needs to be used to increase lending, instead of going to the holding companies to use how they see fit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/opini ... ef=opinion

Quote:
You can't compare that to a family receiving $14 a paycheck from the stimulus. We don't need that money. To imply that we do is ridiculous and insulting.
Your information is embarrassingly inaccurate, even when viewing from two different perspectives:

1) From a historical perspective, the majority of previous tax cuts during this recession were, in fact, used to pay down debt or to save. That's a fact.

2) From our current perspective, most Americans do, in fact, need the extra money. I guess you could spin your non-fact to mean whatever you want. Do Americans with jobs "need" $10 a week? Probably not, to survive, because it's so small and meaningless. However, you make a very good argument to not even spend that money in the first place. If there's no incentive to spend it, and you don't "need" it, why are we giving it to you?

Quote:
The comparison to families getting food stamps or WIC or other similar assistance is more appropriate, and in those cases the government does tell them how to use the handout.
Yet, the government doesn't tell people what kind of food to buy. I can use food stamps to buy food that is fattening and unhealthy, or just downright expensive vs. cheaper, healthy alternatives. If we're on a rant against government waste of taxpayer money, why aren't we mandating that they put down the Doritos and pick up more fruit and vegetables?

The MOST that government should do with banks is to guarantee that money is being used to increase lending, and that's about it. Playing the outrage, populism game is stupid and doesn't fit in the business world.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:34 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Yet, the government doesn't tell people what kind of food to buy. I can use food stamps to buy food that is fattening and unhealthy, or just downright expensive vs. cheaper, healthy alternatives. If we're on a rant against government waste of taxpayer money, why aren't we mandating that they put down the Doritos and pick up more fruit and vegetables?

They do tell people what they can't buy. You just keep ignoring that fact because it doesn't fit your ridiculous tirade against the government.

So while you can be all happy skippy about failing corporations paying their CEO's millions while having to borrow money from you, I'm not so happy with that. I want them to get paid a bare minimum until their companies are actually making a profit again, because if they were doing a job that deserved millions a year in pay, we wouldn't have to loan them the fucking money in the first place.

Or is that too fucking complicated for you? Maybe I should make it simpler: if I give you $50 to buy groceries, you don't get to spend it on cigarettes and beer. You spend it on food. Even if your fat ass buys twinkies, it's better than you wasting it on bullshit you don't need.

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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:40 PM 
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Food Stamps can only buy food (and no take out or shit like that.)

There's one example.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh, HELL NO!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:40 PM 
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Kula: a refundable tax credit is exactly what you say it's not.

It's a way for government to promote ways for you to spend your money. Typically, they're very specific ways, like the homebuyer's credit you mention.

It's the government saying, "If you buy a home, we will give you money."


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