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Is there too much pork in the Stimulus Package?
Yes, way too much pork. 47%  47%  [ 18 ]
No, it is just fine. 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
We should not be doing a Stimulus Package. 29%  29%  [ 11 ]
This is long overdue. 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 38
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:35 AM 
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OK, as admitted in another thread, I listen to talk radio. The big thing they seem to be talking about is all the Pork Spending in the bill. Is it as bad as they say? Do we need this package? Below is a breakdown of what the bill has, and below that is just one commentary on the Pork. (Randomly looked it up myself.) Are the Radio people over reacting or not?

Quote:
Obama Stimulus Package Breakdown

January 26, 2009 - 11:16 ET

What is the money being spent on-general breakdown between infrastructure, tax cuts, etc…?

Some highlights of the package, by the numbers:

• $825 billion total (as of 1/15/09)
• $550 billion in new spending, described as thoughtful and carefully targeted priority investments with unprecedented accountability measures built in.
• $275 billion in tax relief ($1,000 tax cut for families, $500 tax cut for individuals through SS payroll deductions)
• $ 90 billion for infrastructure
• $ 87 billion Medicaid aid to states
• $ 79 billion school districts/public colleges to prevent cutbacks
• $ 54 billion to encourage energy production from renewable sources
• $ 41 billion for additional school funding ($14 billion for school modernizations and repairs, $13 billion for Title I, $13 billion for IDEA special education funding, $1 billion for education technology)
• $ 24 billion for "health information technology to prevent medical mistakes, provide better care to patients and introduce cost-saving efficiencies" and "to provide for preventative care and to evaluate the most effective healthcare treatments."
• $ 16 billion for science/technology ($10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation; $6 billion to expand broadband to rural areas)
• $ 15 billion to increase Pell grants by $500
• $ 6 billion for the ambiguous "higher education modernization."

[Source: Committee on Appropriations: January 15, 2009]

Here is a further breakdown of the package:

NOTE: The following are highlights of the package; for the full 13-page summary from the Appropriations Committee, click here:

(as of 1/15/09)

Energy
$32 billion: Funding for "smart electricity grid" to reduce waste
$16 billion: Renewable energy tax cuts and a tax credit for research and development on energy-related work, and a multiyear extension of renewable energy production tax credit
$6 billion: Funding to weatherize modest-income homes

Science and Technology
$10 billion: Science facilities
$6 billion: High-speed Internet access for rural and underserved areas

Infrastructure
$30 billion: Transportation projects
$31 billion: Construction and repair of federal buildings and other public infrastructure
$19 billion: Water projects
$10 billion: Rail and mass transit projects

Education
$41 billion: Grants to local school districts
$79 billion: State fiscal relief to prevent cuts in state aid
$21 billion: School modernization ($15.6 billion to increase the Pell grant by $500; $6 billion for higher education modernization)

Health Care
$39 billion: Subsidies to health insurance for unemployed; providing coverage through Medicaid
$87 billion: Help to states with Medicaid
$20 billion: Modernization of health-information technology systems
$4.1 billion: Preventative care

Jobless Benefits
$43 billion for increased unemployment benefits and job training.
$39 billion to support those who lose their jobs by helping them to pay the cost of keeping their employer provided healthcare under COBRA and providing short-term options to be covered by Medicaid.
$20 billion to increase the food stamp benefit by over 13% in order to help defray rising food costs.

Taxes

Individuals:

*$500 per worker, $1,000 per couple tax cut for two years, costing about $140 billion.
*Greater access to the $1,000-per-child tax credit for the working poor.
*Expansion of the earned-income tax credit to include families with three children
*A $2,500 college tuition tax credit.
*Repeal of a requirement that a $7,500 first-time homebuyer tax credit be paid back over time.

Businesses:

*An infusion of cash into money-losing companies by allowing them to claim tax credits on past profits dating back five years instead of two.
*Bonus depreciation for businesses investing in new plants and equipment
*Doubling of the amount small businesses can write off for capital investments and new equipment purchases.
*Allowing businesses to claim a tax credit for hiring disconnected youth and veterans

[Sources: Associated Press: Highlights of Senate economic stimulus plan; January 23, 2009; WSJ: Stimulus Package Unveiled; January 16, 2009; Committee on Appropriations: January 15, 2009]

When is the money being is going to be spent, and on what?

The government wouldn't be able to spend at least one-fourth of a proposed $825 billion economic stimulus plan until after 2010, according to a preliminary report by the Congressional Business Office that suggests it may take longer than expected to boost the economy. The government would spend about $26 billion of the money this year and $110 billion more next year, the report said. About $103 billion would be spent in 2011, while $53 billion would be spent in 2012 and $63 billion between 2013 and 2019.

• Less than $5 billion of the $30 billion set aside for highway spending would be spent within the next two years, the CBO said.

• Only $26 billion out of $274 billion in infrastructure spending would be delivered into the economy by the Sept. 30 end of the budget year, just 7 percent.

• Just one in seven dollars of a huge $18.5 billion investment in energy efficiency and renewable energy programs would be spent within a year and a half.

• About $907 million of a $6 billion plan to expand broadband access in rural and other underserved areas would be spent by 2011, CBO said.

• Just one-fourth of clean drinking water projects can be completed by October of next year.

• $275 billion worth of tax cuts to 95 percent of filers and a huge infusion of help for state governments is to be distributed into the economy more quickly.

[Note: The CBO's analysis applied only to 40 percent of the overall stimulus bill, and doesn't cover tax cuts or efforts; a CBO report outlining all of its costs is expected in the next week or so.]

• The Obama administration said $3 of every $4 in the package should be spent within 18 months to have maximum impact on jobs and taxpayers; if House or Senate versions of the bill do not spend the money as quickly, the White House will work with lawmakers to achieve the goal of spending 75% of the overall package over the next year and a half.

[Source: AP: Three-quarters of stimulus to go in 18 months; January 22, 2009; Bloomberg News: Much of Stimulus Wont Be Spent Before 2011, CBO Says; January 20, 2009; link]

Who will be spending the money? Will the states be receiving any money to spend, community organizations? Churches?

The economic stimulus plan now moving through Congress would shower billions of federal dollars on state and local governments desperate for cash:

• The House stimulus bill includes an extra $87 billion in federal aid to state Medicaid programs.

• It allots some $120 billion to boost state and city education programs.

• There's $4 billion for state and local anticrime initiatives in the legislation, not to mention $30-plus billion for highways and other infrastructure projects.

• $6.9 billion to help state and local governments make investments that make them more energy efficient and reduce carbon emissions.

• $87 billion to states, increasing through the end of FY 2010 the share of Medicaid costs the Federal government reimburses all states by 4.8 percent, with extra relief tied to rates of unemployment.

• $120 billion to states and school districts to stabilize budgets and prevent tax increases and deep cuts to critical education programs.

Overall, about one-quarter of the entire $825 billion recovery package would be devoted to activities crucial to governors, mayors, and local school boards - making them among the plans biggest beneficiaries.


Here is one story on the Pork:
Quote:
A Pork-Barrel Stimulus Package (Rep. Michele Bachmann)
December 20th, 2008

It’s no secret that when President Obama gets sworn into office, among his top priorities will be to guide Congress through an $850 billion economic stimulus package. As a result, this astronomical number has created a tsunami of activity from special interest groups looking for their piece of the pie. $850 billion is simply an astonishing figure - not only exceeding the hefty $700 billion price tag of the financial sector, but also dwarfing the annual budget for the Pentagon.

What does Obama intend to do with all of your hard-earned money? According to today’s Washington Post, the 850 billion “would include at least $100 billion for cash-strapped state governments and more than $350 billion for investments in infrastructure, alternative energy and other priorities…”

You’ve got to wonder if the infrastructure investments that Obama is going to include in his package might come from the list of 11,391 projects that the U.S. Conference of Mayors recently submitted to Congress. The list includes things like a $4.8 million polar bear exhibit at the Providence, RI zoo and a $1.5 million water ride in Miami, FL.

According to a recent CNN article, other abuses of taxpayer dollars found within the report include: “a proposed $20 million minor league baseball museum in Durham, North Carolina; $6.1 million for corporate jet hangars at the Fayetteville, Arkansas, airport; $20 million for renovations at the Philadelphia Zoo; and a $1.5 million program to reduce prostitution in Dayton, Ohio.”

If nothing else, the next four years look to be a spending bonanza and a pork barrel free-for-all. Hold on to your wallets!


Stimulus package: pork or progress video



Me, personally, I do not like how they are just throwing made up money at the problem with no accountability on where it is going and on projects that seem to just be payoffs.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:41 AM 
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I didn't choose an option. I think we need a stimulus package. I think some "pork" can be stimulative of local economies. This bill has too much of that type of spending in it and not enough spending aimed at the national economy and long term jobs at decent wages.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:44 AM 
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Queue the semantic descriptions of what pork is.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:57 AM 
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I can't really vote either. I don't really know exactly how I feel about the whole thing. On one hand, I have economists everywhere saying we need some kind of stimulus. We also have economists everywhere saying that even 1 trillion isn't enough to make a real dent. I'm not saying we should spend even more; I'm saying that perhaps it's just not possible to ward off an entire recession, even when it's an entity as large as the US government to do so.

I also have mixed feelings about the actual contents of the bill. There are a lot of things in it that I felt we needed to do even without a recession to use as an excuse (for example, bridge repairs). There are some things I don't care for (in something this big, would you expect anything different?).

I do think, however, that the whole, "omg that's pork!" thing is a little silly. This is a stimulus package, based on government spending. It's ALL pork, in the sense that it's well-- government spending.

I think of pork as being spending on projects that have nothing to do with the intent of the bill, in order to get specific congressman's votes. In this case, the whole point is to spend money. We don't want it to be wasteful, or course, but let's argue about what is pork or not-- let's try to identify the wasteful parts of it (I'm sure there is some) and try to get it cut out.

And you know, the sound bite bullshit about spending needs to be ignored. It's simply not worth believing without context. A perfect example happened pre-election with the "omg $2 million spent on a planetarium screen in Chicago" stuff McCain was throwing out. I read in Scientific American just a few weeks later a commentary about that-- that it was simply not actually the case. $2 million for the planetarium? Sure. But it was necessary, important funding that needed to happen to continue with research and presentation within our science community.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:03 AM 
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I wonder if Michelle Bachmann considered bridge repairs in her district to be pork.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:05 AM 
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The bottom line to me is this:

1) Every spending bill needs to be closely scrutinized after TARP. We have people admitting there is no accountability to how all that money was spent, and we're considering an even bigger bill without any close scrutiny. What?

2) A whole lot more money needs to go to spending that not only generates jobs, but is also strategic. Even if I buy the argument that 500 million for a new HQ for the department of homeland security will generate jobs, and I don't... isn't it better to spend that money on healthcare, infrastructure, renewable energy, that also have the possibility to create jobs? Let's put our eggs in smarter baskets.

3) It doesn't address the root of our economic problems, which started in the housing sector. Like I said, close to 10,000 homes being auctioned in Atlanta yesterday.

4) I fear that we will be back at the trough in a few short months when another major US company is about to fail. When is it going to end?

5) There's no vision. The plan is simply huge, but it's not bold. Nothing new or innovative will result in this bill, the largest spending bill we've ever produced. Shouldn't there be?

Part of me wants to let the economy contract naturally and stop propping it up. I worry that all of the money we're throwing at it will have a severe longterm negative impact, and I'm not really in favor of propping up companies like GM that make shitty products that people just don't want.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:09 AM 
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Quote:
I wonder if Michelle Bachmann considered bridge repairs in her district to be pork.
You don't consider that a state matter?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:14 AM 
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I consider decrying an entire bill as "pork" when part of the funding is going toward infrastructure repair to mitigate the risk of additional bridge collapses like the one in Minnesota to be a short-sighted attempt to score political points.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:30 AM 
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Quote:
I consider decrying an entire bill as "pork" when part of the funding is going toward infrastructure repair to mitigate the risk of additional bridge collapses like the one in Minnesota to be a short-sighted attempt to score political points.
Got it. So we're outside the realm of stimulus and now doing good deeds. Roger that.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:42 AM 
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You're right. We can't do stimulus and good deeds at the same time. That would be bad.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:51 AM 
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It wasn't argued as a stimulus and a good deed, only as a good deed.

If those bridges haven't been fixed already, with their own state taxes and budget, then fuck them. Obviously, it's not quite so urgent that we need to divert federal dollars to fix a state problem.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:54 AM 
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It doesn't need to be argued as a stimulus, because the question was, "is bridge repair wasteful?"

As for it being a state issue, I'm wondering if you realize the current state of our transportation system as a whole. The estimates for repairs in many states are far more than the entire budgets of some states. The highway system was a federal creation, anyway, and the bridge we're talking about right now was a part of that highway system. Most states are simply not able to afford the kind of money we're talking about, and in the meantime drivers are put at risk.

Fun side fact-- I was about a mile away from that bridge when it went down, on the freeway in question.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:56 AM 
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You clearly have no idea how the Interstate Highway System is funded.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:28 PM 
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bearne wrote:
You clearly have no idea how the Interstate Highway System is funded.


The idea behind the funding of the interstate was for the feds to build it and then the states to maintain it. By all rights there should be no Fed Gas tax but there is... :-(

I drive over the bridge that fell everyday (I-35w), except the day it fell, I had to go to get some pool supplies.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:46 PM 
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Well, then, maybe *I* have no idea how the Interstate Highway System is funded. I always thought that some of the fed highway dollars that came back went to system maintenance. In which case, me culpa all around.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:56 PM 
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You guys are nuts for living in MN. It's cold as shit up there. Time to move.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:50 PM 
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joxur wrote:
You guys are nuts for living in MN. It's cold as shit up there. Time to move.


no shit

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:03 AM 
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Devil wrote:
joxur wrote:
You guys are nuts for living in MN. It's cold as shit up there. Time to move.


no shit

It makes the vast majority of the bums move away for 6 months of the year. The only ones that stay are the natives generally. I don't love cold weather, in fact my favorite weather is 100 and humid, but it also keeps most of the insects away. If there is one thing I hate more than cold it is cockroaches or other insects in my house.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:13 AM 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:47 AM 
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Quote:
It makes the vast majority of the bums move away for 6 months of the year. The only ones that stay are the natives generally. I don't love cold weather, in fact my favorite weather is 100 and humid, but it also keeps most of the insects away. If there is one thing I hate more than cold it is cockroaches or other insects in my house.
I think you might be on the wrong foot there, Guurn.

I've been to Alaska about 8 times, mostly in the summer, and Minnesota several times in the summer. The mosquitoes are about as big as condors up there, and much more plentiful. Down here in Georgia, the bugs aren't nearly as bad. They just carry diseases :) And our cockroaches fly, but easily avoided if you're nimble.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:26 AM 
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Sorry, I couldn't get past this line without LOLing....

Quote:
Are the Radio people over reacting or not?


Their job is to over-react and make everyone listening think the sky is falling.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:15 PM 
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Xkhanx wrote:
Sorry, I couldn't get past this line without LOLing....

Quote:
Are the Radio people over reacting or not?


Their job is to over-react and make everyone listening think the sky is falling.


You mean the sky is not falling?

This "spending bill is getting worse"

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:29 AM 
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As Vincent Vega said, "Bacon tastes good. Pork chops taste good."

I'll take everything on the menu. The menu being the quoted breakdown of Obama's stimulus package.

Also, I remember hearing that there will be an internet accessible accounting of the stimulus spending.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:06 PM 
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Well the house almost has things figured out.

- Removed the $2 billion allocated to broadband development
- Removed funds to NASA
- Removed funds to National Institute for Standards and Technology
- Removed $16 billion in school construction funding
- Removed $3.5 billion for higher education construction
- A variety of environmental projects were also cut or reduced (half of the $7 billion set aside for energy-efficient federal buildings, half of the $600 million for hybrid federal vehicles)
- Removed $8 billion in health-related provisions
- Removed $40 billion in aid to states

OMG this bill still has so much shit in it....
one example $1 billion for NATIONAL OCEANIC AND ATMOSPHERIC ADMINISTRATION OPERATIONS, RESEARCH, AND FACILITIES
another example DIGITAL-TO-ANALOG CONVERTER BOX PROGRAM $650,000,000

another notable item no less then $540 million for Earth Climate research, now I am not arguing weather or not this is research is needed but I am unable to determine how this is going to help the unemployed worker from "The Home Depot" .

<Page 48>
10 NATIONAL OCEANIC AND ATMOSPHERIC
11 ADMINISTRATION
12 OPERATIONS, RESEARCH, AND FACILITIES
21 climate data records: Provided further, That not less than
22 $140,000,000 shall be available for climate data modeling.

<Page 60>
2 NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE
3 ADMINISTRATION
4 SCIENCE
5 For an additional amount for ‘‘Science’’,
6 $400,000,000, of which not less than $250,000,000 shall
7 be solely for accelerating the development of the tier 1 set
8 of Earth science climate research missions recommended
9 by the National Academies Decadal Survey.




http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/RecoveryBill01-15-09.pdf

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:01 PM 
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Devil wrote:
...but I am unable to determine how this is going to help the unemployed worker from "The Home Depot" .

You seem concerned about whether or not the stimulus will help blue collar workers such as people who work at Home Depot, but support the removal of parts that would help out other blue collar workers like construction workers who would be employed by the construction of schools, the people who would be employed to bring broadband to more homes, and those workers who would be employed to build energy efficient buildings.

I'm not seeing your logic here.


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I am not talking about building or building projects, but the bill states this money is for "research", not for the building of research facilities. The other part of what I am saying is these jobs are not long term jobs, all I can see that they will do is a quick hit and then we will be back in the same boat we are now.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:45 PM 
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You'll have to pardon me if I don't consider GOP supply-side theories on spending and tax cuts viable at the moment.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:07 AM 
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

Fresh off spending nearly a trillion dollars, looks like we're going to be asked to spend another trillion on TARP 2 this week. Wonder what words they'll use this time - catastrophe and armageddon have already been played. heh


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:10 AM 
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Bearne, that graph is interesting if uninformative. The prior data is data, I'm assuming but is the current data actual job loss or is it the announced job losses to come? Those job losses that the media was/is hyping over the last couple weeks are severe and worrisome but they didn't happen yet so don't belong on any graph (although I keep seeing them graphed). So, what are the facts behind your graph?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:30 AM 
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bearne, thats a nice graph but there is one thing missing on that graph IMHO, it needs to have the number of employed people. Just for the sake of argument lets say there are 2000 people with jobs in 1990 and and 4000 people with jobs in 2001 and today there are 8000 people with jobs. The graph is just showing how many people lost jobs, so if the job losses were 50% for each year the graph would show very bad for todays job loss at 4000 even though the percentage is the same.

If there are more people with Jobs then there are more people that can lose jobs, right?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:34 AM 
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Devil wrote:
If there are more people with Jobs then there are more people that can lose jobs, right?

Has no bearing or merit for this discussion. You're trying to distract from the real topic with bullshit. Try to stay on track.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:36 AM 
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I'm not going to argue that the GOP has great economic policies - it's a losing position to take, because they don't. The past 8 years have proven that.

But to go from one extreme to the other is not the right solution. I would actually favor a stimulus bill with ZERO tax cuts if the spending measures in it actually made sense, but a whole lot doesn't. I've read that it doesn't go far enough, and I tend to believe that. I don't mind feeling the pain of taxes the way they are if it means less pain down the road. Unfortunately, the jumbled mess we have now, mostly due to Obama letting Pelosi put a Christmas list together, will do nothing to alleviate our current pain and will make things really suck in about 5-10 years. Can't wait to see the effect on social security, too, with all the damned baby boomers starting to hit the system.

So now we have TARP 2 this week, and guess what folks? It's only February. How long until we see another bailout of automakers, or, more likely, their suppliers? What's next after that? When does it end?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:42 AM 
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hey I thought I was, beame posted a graph and I was just stating why it may or may not be as bad a the graph looks..

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:44 AM 
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joxur wrote:
I'm not going to argue that the GOP has great economic policies - it's a losing position to take, because they don't. The past 8 years have proven that.

But to go from one extreme to the other is not the right solution. I would actually favor a stimulus bill with ZERO tax cuts if the spending measures in it actually made sense, but a whole lot doesn't. I've read that it doesn't go far enough, and I tend to believe that. I don't mind feeling the pain of taxes the way they are if it means less pain down the road. Unfortunately, the jumbled mess we have now, mostly due to Obama letting Pelosi put a Christmas list together, will do nothing to alleviate our current pain and will make things really suck in about 5-10 years. Can't wait to see the effect on social security, too, with all the damned baby boomers starting to hit the system.

So now we have TARP 2 this week, and guess what folks? It's only February. How long until we see another bailout of automakers, or, more likely, their suppliers? What's next after that? When does it end?


Yeah what he said..

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:20 AM 
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Go back to the late 70's and early 80's after the Carter admin. That economy was way worse than now...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:32 AM 
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I don't even want another bailout myself, but I will say this:

My understanding is that most economists say that if we want to lessen the recession, we need to spend even more than we may be capable of spending. To bitch about the $2 trillion total (so far) and yet still hold the government accountable for keeping the recession at bay is to force the government into a no-win situation.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:06 PM 
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When we spend money it should be for real growth items. Make-work projects are ok for a quick fix but they don't have the long-term and lasting effect that real growth items do.

For example: Let's build/fix this bridge/roadway! Cool, that put workers to work and improves some infrastructure but when the bridge/road is finished what happens to those jobs? They either have to move to another project (usually not in the same community) or have to find other work.

-or-

Let's make it a national priority to totally rebuild our electricity grid. This is a multi-generational project. Not only will we be working to improve our way of life, but you will have long lasting impact on communities across the nation. You will be tapping into every range of skill set and developing new skill that will improve conditions for many more people.

In a time of crisis both have some advantages and disadvantages. I don't think we are at the point were we need to just focus on the small quick hits but need to really look at the things that can take our standards and move them exponentially forward. If we are going to be spending this amount of money it should not be for repaying political favors and small pet projects (which these bailout bills have been). Obama has the setting for a Kennedy moment to say to the nation: "We are at a cross-road, we can continue doing business as usual or we can throw off the shackles that bind us to our past and repeated failures. We are a few years away from a catastrophic electricity infrastructure break-down. We need to start today and remove the restrictions to build and complete the next generation power grid and supporting technologies."

Then funding to companies like GE, IBM, et al can go towards getting it accomplished. Congress can pass laws that remove the barriers to progress and then get out of the way.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:38 PM 
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I'm still waiting for someone/anyone to explain (without relying on some new technological advance that hasn't happened yet) how any of this "stimulation" is good for the long-term economic future of the country. When do they expect the inflationary impact of this borrowing by government to occur? What is the vision for the US economy in 10 years? In 20 years? Short term bread & circuses approaches to structural issues in our economy don't seem to be the logical answer, just the popular one.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:40 PM 
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The CBO has all of that data, Kula.

http://www.cbo.gov/


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:46 PM 
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I've read those reports, Joxur and listened to Sen. Obey (who I generally don't ever agree with) go over parts of it on Saturday during the debate but clearly there's something I'm missing as the Democrats continue to push for passage after being told it would be a longterm drag on the economy and lead to reduced economic growth. I waited and waited for a Democrat to step up and respond with something/anything but what did I get? Fearmongering by Sen. Boxer with pretty pictures of 1000s lined up for 35 jobs in Miami etc. No responses and no visions of what the future economy would look like.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:18 PM 
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Quote:
For example: Let's build/fix this bridge/roadway! Cool, that put workers to work and improves some infrastructure but when the bridge/road is finished what happens to those jobs? They either have to move to another project (usually not in the same community) or have to find other work.

-or-

Let's make it a national priority to totally rebuild our electricity grid. This is a multi-generational project. Not only will we be working to improve our way of life, but you will have long lasting impact on communities across the nation. You will be tapping into every range of skill set and developing new skill that will improve conditions for many more people.


See-- I like what you put forth as your option, and at the same time I feel like it ignores the logic you (or perhaps just conservatives trying to find a way to disagree with Obama) yourself have employed.

See, your first example isn't much different than the second. Once you build a bridge, all road repairs don't automatically dissappear. Please still have to stay behind to maintain these roads, and then eventually build it again. New streets mean new revenue, and new businesses to different parts of the US. Without those roads, quality of life would certainly noticeably deteriorate.

Or, we could argue it from the other side. All the negatives you point out to "building the bridge somewhere" also apply to building electricity infrastructure. Once you build that tower, you have to go build another one somewhere else. Blah blah blah, hopefully you can fill in the blanks.

And finally, your proposal sounds far from "shovel ready" (and btw, I hate stupid terms like this-- it's just the quickest way to get my point across). We can't just go out there, pick a corner, and build a tower. You make the nebulous claim to "make it a national priority to rebuild our electricity grid" as a "multi-generational project" while at the same time the other side of your mouth is bitching that the current plan doesn't spend money fast enough to make a difference for this recession. Surely you see the disconnect.... right?


On a related note:
Republicans, I'd like to also have seen you give at least a little. It's not your world anymore. Obama met with you several times, and put forth a plan that included tax cuts that he didn't have to. He put those in based on your input. There is going to be shit in the plan you aren't going to like, but you could have given some ground somewhere. The Democrats certainly don't need you to pass their bill. Perhaps, as he said tonight, he should have included no tax cuts at all, and then let you put a few in to claim "victory." Instead he did the gracious thing and included you in his planning. The response? You're given an inch, and you try to take a mile.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:20 AM 
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Republican participation in this process is becoming more and more suspect to me. The more I see, the more I believe people on the right are not concerned with what's right for our nations economy in this so much as playing this for personal political gain.

This stimulus package has so much potential to positively impact the economy, security and quality of life for the near and long term future of the U.S. and all of its citizens, I can't comprehend how anyone can deny it. Sure it has a hefty price-tag but things have been allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that routine maintenance is insufficient. The nations infrastructure requires an overhaul along with much else that is fundamental to national prosperity.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 AM 
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Raethong wrote:
This stimulus package has so much potential to positively impact the economy, security and quality of life for the near and long term future of the U.S. and all of its citizens, I can't comprehend how anyone can deny it. Sure it has a hefty price-tag but things have been allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that routine maintenance is insufficient. The nations infrastructure requires an overhaul along with much else that is fundamental to national prosperity.


I agree that the infrastructure in this country needs work. But why would implementing a plan that the CBO says is long term recessionary improve the "long term future"? I hate the idea of a "Bad Bank" but that was a plan that perhaps had a chance to address the root of the credit markets problem. If implemented concurrently with new regulatory controls it could stabilize the banks. That's what needs to happen for private sector jobs to start being created. In addition, the impact of this kind of government borrowing is inflationary. How inflationary we don't really know at this point but we had all better hope that the short term stimulation of the economy hits before the inflation. If it doesn't things will get worse and ugly quickly.

Last night I was impressed that Obama actually spoke of the idea of returning to a manufacturing/producing economy rather than a consumption based economy. He's right. In the long term the consumption based model in unsustainable. I am pleased that he gets this and it does give me a tinyt bit of hope that once his spending spree is over a fiscally conservative approach to budgeting will be forthcoming.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:47 AM 
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Quote:
the impact of this kind of government borrowing is inflationary. How inflationary we don't really know at this point but we had all better hope that the short term stimulation of the economy hits before the inflation. If it doesn't things will get worse and ugly quickly.
By some estimates, Washington has created about 10 trillion dollars since October 2008. The true national debt is somewhere north of 50 trillion dollars. The Fed is printing money at an incredible rate. It's not known whether they're just doing this to try and "save the economy," or whether they're knowingly trying to create another Zimbabwe or Weimar Germany in America. In either case, the entrepreneurial class, the true engine of the American economy, probably will be destroyed by this debt burden. Of course, if you're a socialist, this is the goal, because that way the elites will continue to hold power forever.
Quote:
On a related note:
Republicans, I'd like to also have seen you give at least a little. It's not your world anymore. Obama met with you several times, and put forth a plan that included tax cuts that he didn't have to. He put those in based on your input. There is going to be shit in the plan you aren't going to like, but you could have given some ground somewhere. The Democrats certainly don't need you to pass their bill. Perhaps, as he said tonight, he should have included no tax cuts at all, and then let you put a few in to claim "victory." Instead he did the gracious thing and included you in his planning. The response? You're given an inch, and you try to take a mile.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize we elected a king in November. Maybe you see this arrogant, condecending asshole as a wiser, stronger, prettier, and overall more perfect replacement for Jesus Christ, but a good many of us don't.

Bush and the Republicans fucked things up, including (but not limited to) the idea of making the Secretary of the Treasury into a de facto co-president. This douchebag who thinks he's Abe Lincoln with a jump shot is making them far worse by trying to shove every socialist program possible through in one bill, while calling it an emergency stimulus package so that we can "remake America" into a new People's Republic where the many owe their entire existence to the benificence of the very few. And we're supposed to want this -- why? Oh, right. Because it's for our own good, and Lord Barry and his little friends tell us we have to do it, even if we don't want to.

God, how I love fascists.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:01 AM 
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Oops, I forgot one.
Quote:
I was impressed that Obama actually spoke of the idea of returning to a manufacturing/producing economy rather than a consumption based economy. He's right. In the long term the consumption based model in unsustainable.
True wealth results only from harvesting natural resources and creating something from them. We stupidly sent industry overseas because it's cheaper to make things using Chinese slave labor than it is to make it here. Since we've gradually bought into the fantastic ideas that we need to buy every damn thing we see and all consumer goods must be really, really cheap, we've also gradually gotten it into our heads that we simply can't afford to buy American-made goods. Also, our environmental regulations have affected the cost of making things. (A friend told me a couple weeks ago that his company had to choose between no longer making products at all and sending their casting plant to China because the company can't afford all the environmental fees involved with manufacturing.) And, of course, the PRC isn't about to send the businesses they've bought up back to a country that's its biggest debtor. So, while it would be great for the US to be a manufacturing powerhouse again, there is no way that will ever happen. Our days as the workd's most powerful country are done.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:52 AM 
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Quote:
I'm sorry. I didn't realize we elected a king in November. Maybe you see this arrogant, condecending asshole as a wiser, stronger, prettier, and overall more perfect replacement for Jesus Christ, but a good many of us don't.


Cute. This has what exactly to do with my post?

Quote:
Bush and the Republicans fucked things up, including (but not limited to) the idea of making the Secretary of the Treasury into a de facto co-president. This douchebag who thinks he's Abe Lincoln with a jump shot is making them far worse by trying to shove every socialist program possible through in one bill, while calling it an emergency stimulus package so that we can "remake America" into a new People's Republic where the many owe their entire existence to the benificence of the very few. And we're supposed to want this -- why? Oh, right. Because it's for our own good, and Lord Barry and his little friends tell us we have to do it, even if we don't want to.

God, how I love fascists.


There's a lot of anger in you. Take it from a facist-- a couple drags from the peace pipe would be quite beneficial for you.

Oh and stop believing the bullshit you apparently read.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:47 AM 
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Yup. Only Bale can make Joxur look level-headed and open to dialogue.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:58 AM 
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FYI - a little more historical context.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:02 AM 
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Even more historical context:

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Clearly, a recipe to spend 2.5 trillion dollars on spending bills and rescuing banks.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:37 PM 
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I'm interested in seeing how / what technology they intend to use to bring broadband to under served areas.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:19 AM 
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What I find truly amazing about this is the ENTIRELY different tune republicans are singing about "wasteful spending".

Apparently it is ok to increase the debt of this nation as long as we're spending it in wars abroad, but not at home or if a democrat proposes it.

This is without even going into how much better we'd be able to actually handle this situation financially if we hadn't had Bush's War of Lies to contend with as a nation.

I keep coming back to Bin Laden's very early claim that he wanted to bankrupt America. Seems to me, after the last 8 years of Bush playing along with that game, he might live long enough to see that come true. I hope not, but man...I worry.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:31 AM 
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rugen wrote:
What I find truly amazing about this is the ENTIRELY different tune republicans are singing about "wasteful spending".

Apparently it is ok to increase the debt of this nation as long as we're spending it in wars abroad, but not at home or if a democrat proposes it.

This is without even going into how much better we'd be able to actually handle this situation financially if we hadn't had Bush's War of Lies to contend with as a nation.

I keep coming back to Bin Laden's very early claim that he wanted to bankrupt America. Seems to me, after the last 8 years of Bush playing along with that game, he might live long enough to see that come true. I hope not, but man...I worry.



I absolutely agree, but who cares? We are here, looking at the reasons we are here fixes nothing. All of the country's energy needs to be on finding a workable solution for both the short term and the long term. What we are seeing is like standing around in the upstairs hallway bitching at a kid who was playing with matches while the house burns down rather than calling 911.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:44 AM 
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2000-2008: GOP in power, demonizes Democrats, diverts attention away from important issues, nothing gets done, country goes to hell.

2008+: Democrats in power, demonize GOP, divert attention away from important issues, nothing gets done, country goes to lower plane of hell.

The bill is a method of punishing the GOP, apparently. "It's our turn" and "We won" seem to be the biggest arguments for the bill.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:50 AM 
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Here you go. Here's the grand stimulus idea.

Quote:
It includes Obama's signature "Making Work Pay" tax credit for 95 percent of workers, though negotiators agreed to trim the credit to $400 a year instead of $500 — or $800 for married couples, cut from Obama's original proposal of $1,000. It would begin showing up in most workers' paychecks in June as an extra $13 a week in take-home pay, falling to about $8 a week next January.
Un-FUCKING-believable. This is pure comedy gold. I guess I'll use my stimulus on a #2, large size with a diet coke.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:18 AM 
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So you'd prefer to hand out ipods like bush did last year? How did that stimulus work out? Sure $13 isn't much, but it's more money in your pocket, times a couple hundred million taxpayers, that actually might make it into the economy instead of paying off credit cards, like last year's check did.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:34 AM 
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Gotcha.

It wasn't the payment, it was the method of payment. Somehow, against all logic, people are going to take the money that Obama is giving them and use it to stimulate the economy, instead of saving, paying off debt or paying the bills as they did the last time they got money. That, despite the fact that people are worse off, in more debt, having a harder time paying the bills. This is because they are getting a weekly credit, instead of the money up front. That was the secret. Thanks for the insight, movie review guy.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:42 AM 
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Honestly, I think it's true. I'm much more likely to save / pay down debt with a big lump sum of $500 than I am $13. $13 just disappears into misc. spending.

I'm not sure what's so funny though. "Comedy Gold?" Hyperbole much?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:46 AM 
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We'll have to wait and see. I'm in favor of no tax breaks and pure spending, on things that make sense. So, whatever..

Cool graphic:

Image

Fascinating. Many anti-recession programs were enacted AFTER the recessions had already ended.


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