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Is there too much pork in the Stimulus Package?
Yes, way too much pork. 47%  47%  [ 18 ]
No, it is just fine. 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
We should not be doing a Stimulus Package. 29%  29%  [ 11 ]
This is long overdue. 13%  13%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 38
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:54 PM 
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I read this today and I was shocked:
Quote:
...We must not revert to isolationism and unrestrained economic egotism. The leaders of the world's largest economies agreed during the November 2008 G20 summit not to create barriers hindering global trade and capital flows. Russia shares these principles.

Although additional protectionism will prove inevitable during the crisis, all of us must display a sense of proportion.

Excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state's omnipotence is another possible mistake.

True, the state's increased role in times of crisis is a natural reaction to market setbacks. Instead of streamlining market mechanisms, some are tempted to expand state economic intervention to the greatest possible extent.

The concentration of surplus assets in the hands of the state is a negative aspect of anti-crisis measures in virtually every nation.

In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state's role absolute. In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.

Nor should we turn a blind eye to the fact that the spirit of free enterprise, including the principle of personal responsibility of businesspeople, investors and shareholders for their decisions, is being eroded in the last few months. There is no reason to believe that we can achieve better results by shifting responsibility onto the state.

And one more point: anti-crisis measures should not escalate into financial populism and a refusal to implement responsible macroeconomic policies. The unjustified swelling of the budgetary deficit and the accumulation of public debts are just as destructive as adventurous stock-jobbing.


This was from the transcript of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

I think there is a lot of good in his speech (yes, I am giving praise to a Communist - SHOCKING!) He speaks of the world-wide economic balance; the lack of dependence of a single international currency; a balanced look at energy reforms that take it away from the speculative forces; and he speaks of businesses reporting the true value of their company not the estimated value.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:39 AM 
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A very expected quote from a country struggling to justify its democracy and capitalism.

Very unshocked.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:45 AM 
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And one more point: anti-crisis measures should not escalate into financial populism and a refusal to implement responsible macroeconomic policies. The unjustified swelling of the budgetary deficit and the accumulation of public debts are just as destructive as adventurous stock-jobbing.


Gee, I wonder what country he is taking to task here? Sadly, he is correct and he ain't seen nuthin' yet.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:16 AM 
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I can only but shiver at the thought of what McCain would have done, given the GOP's spending track record over the last 8 years.

And now they finally take the reverse role because that's what minority parties do!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:54 PM 
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Venen wrote:
I can only but shiver at the thought of what McCain would have done, given the GOP's spending track record over the last 8 years.

And now they finally take the reverse role because that's what minority parties do!


Agree

the GOP party will not be winning much of any more seat till they start being more conservative there are way to many that call them selfs Republicans that are nothing more the Democrats.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:54 PM 
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If we thought 2008 should have been a good year for third parties, 2010 should be a watershed moment when people realize that continually electing Republicans and/or Democrats will just make the solutions worse. BOTH of these parties have their heads so far up their respective power-lobby groups that they forget that it is we the people that elect them and we the people that they serve. We don't need to elect any more Democrats or Republicans until they remember that. (and hopefully by that time there will be a significant third voice in our politics.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:56 PM 
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Wait a second... So you think that the Republicans currently in Congress are too *moderate*??

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:05 PM 
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No, I think the Republicans in Congress right now are too "democrat". They are all the same. The only difference is the areas where each want to spend our money.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:13 AM 
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Quote:
If we thought 2008 should have been a good year for third parties, 2010 should be a watershed moment when people realize that continually electing Republicans and/or Democrats will just make the solutions worse. BOTH of these parties have their heads so far up their respective power-lobby groups that they forget that it is we the people that elect them and we the people that they serve. We don't need to elect any more Democrats or Republicans until they remember that. (and hopefully by that time there will be a significant third voice in our politics.


Hint: It has nothing to do with Republican/Democrat/Green/etc. I know it's tempting to have this attitude of, "Throw off the system, bring in fresh, new, 'little' people who aren't caught up in the big business and lobbying of it all!" But that's the kind of stuff that belongs in inspirational movies, sorry.

Although, in a manner of speaking, voting for third parties might help if we can show the parties in power that we really will kick their asses out if they don't help change the system.

Right now we all talk big about it, but the Republicans and Democrats all know that, much like the customer who bitches about bad service in Wal-Mart, we're all talk. They'll be back tomorrow to buy something, and we'll be back voting for them next time.

So no, getting "new people" in isn't going to fix everything...but letting those in power know that we actually WILL hold them to task will.

I suppose we're both looking at the same goal and method in the end. I just don't think it has as much to do with "new people" as it does with us acting differently toward those in power.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:39 PM 
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Aww shucks. First stimulus will fall far short of creating "or saving" 4 million jobs. And we know this less than a month after signing it into law. Guess we're gonna need another one!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/0 ... oal-d.html

Quote:
ABC News' Jonathan Karl Reports: A group of economists including Mark Zandi of Moody's who has advised Democrats and Republicans just presented House Democrats with a report that says the recently enacted $787 billion stimulus package will fall far short of the goal of saving or creating 3.5 million to 4 million jobs.


Quote:
She says it is going to take time to recover from the "Bush economy.
Gee, if only we had a Democratic majority in the house to put some breaks on the Bush Economy.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:50 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Aww shucks. First stimulus will fall far short of creating "or saving" 4 million jobs. And we know this less than a month after signing it into law. Guess we're gonna need another one!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/0 ... oal-d.html

Quote:
ABC News' Jonathan Karl Reports: A group of economists including Mark Zandi of Moody's who has advised Democrats and Republicans just presented House Democrats with a report that says the recently enacted $787 billion stimulus package will fall far short of the goal of saving or creating 3.5 million to 4 million jobs.


Quote:
She says it is going to take time to recover from the "Bush economy.
Gee, if only we had a Democratic majority in the house to put some breaks on the Bush Economy.


LOL :laughing3:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:31 PM 
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Devil wrote:
joxur wrote:
Aww shucks. First stimulus will fall far short of creating "or saving" 4 million jobs. And we know this less than a month after signing it into law. Guess we're gonna need another one!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/0 ... oal-d.html

Quote:
ABC News' Jonathan Karl Reports: A group of economists including Mark Zandi of Moody's who has advised Democrats and Republicans just presented House Democrats with a report that says the recently enacted $787 billion stimulus package will fall far short of the goal of saving or creating 3.5 million to 4 million jobs.


Quote:
She says it is going to take time to recover from the "Bush economy.
Gee, if only we had a Democratic majority in the house to put some breaks on the Bush Economy.


LOL :laughing3:


lol

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:01 PM 
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Devil, you missed the whole "spinless Democrats" in Congress not doing anything to counter the Bush White House. Now those same spineless Democrats are in total power and they still can't get anything done.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:53 PM 
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krby71 wrote:
Devil, you missed the whole "spinless Democrats" in Congress not doing anything to counter the Bush White House. Now those same spineless Democrats are in total power and they still can't get anything done.



Oh I did not miss it.. and they have got a lot done, I mean look they have spent more money faster than any other administration to date.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:07 PM 
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God knows all Democrats would need is "control", nothing more. I use that term loosely, because apparently Joxur has not heard of conservative Democrats that do crazy stuff like, you know, vote where their RED STATE would want them to vote.. no, never. Crazy concept, I know.

Conservatives had the same position over 2 years ago and couldn't pass some of the more conservative-leaning bills even though they had "control" as well.

But I'm sure it's easy in Joxurfantasyland to get 50+ people from all different states with different desires for their elected representative to vote exactly the same way, especially on divisive issues.

No problem at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:20 AM 
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Quote:
Oh I did not miss it.. and they have got a lot done, I mean look they have spent more money faster than any other administration to date.


This kind of spin bothers me as well. Some version of that stimulus package would have been passed, regardless of who was President at the time. No matter who became President in January, this could have been said-- yet somehow I have the feeling that if McCain had been elected, you wouldn't have brought it up.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:07 AM 
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The entire stimulus premise is ridiculous, as is the contention that this economy is anyone's fault but Congress'.

Even if throwing money at these firms is the answer, they continue to mismanage it. Nothing in the bill, or any of the bills, can make their model of business sustainable. They are so far in debt with their guarantee of bad loans that the stimulus money is going toward paying it off cyclically.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:26 AM 
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More transparency news:

Only about half of the 9M mortgages that the U.S. government targeted will end being being refinanced or modified.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/06/forecl ... tgage.html

Forbes says that the mortgage bill is more likely to help 5 million people than the 9 million the administration claimed.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:19 PM 
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Key in word in that article: "Likely". The suggestion is that people won't be ebligible under the guidelines of the plan, something which is easily modifiable. And even if it wasn't, it's arguable whether Forbes is right in its assertion that so many people would be ineligible.

Regardless, that's 5 million more than would have seen any relief with the Bush administration's policy of "pray the mortgage companies adjust". I'll take it, with the knowledge that this is merely the first salvo in a rough recession.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:42 PM 
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Fribur wrote:
This kind of spin bothers me as well. Some version of that stimulus package would have been passed, regardless of who was President at the time. No matter who became President in January, this could have been said-- yet somehow I have the feeling that if McCain had been elected, you wouldn't have brought it up.


Yes I would have, I was against it when it was pushed though under former President Bush.
Sarissa wrote:
The entire stimulus premise is ridiculous, as is the contention that this economy is anyone's fault but Congress'.


QTFT !!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:27 PM 
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Hey. Look. Obama signs omnibus spending bill. In addition to over 8500 earmarks, what does it have? Oh, a signing statement, of course.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/obama_spending
Quote:
Obama's signing statement said he wouldn't be bound by provisions of the bill in five areas. They involved negotiations with foreign governments, limits on using U.S. troops in U.N. missions, protections for government whistleblowers, a congressional claim of authority over the spending of money already approved by Congress and congressional demands that the administration submit budget requests in certain forms.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:25 PM 
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He's not using signing statements like Bush did, which is what he said.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:58 PM 
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Agreed, he pretty much has lived up to what he said in that video so far. And he was pretty specific there was well: That he would not subvert the constitution via signing statements like Bush did. Let's not forget, Bush had hundreds of these things, so far Obama is at - One. Per Obama's statement: "I will issue signing statements to address constitutional concerns only when it is appropriate to do so as a means of discharging my constitutional responsibilities".

Seems reasonable enough to me. Heaven forbid he try to follow the constitution.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:38 PM 
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I don't know enough about about signing statements to comment, but didn't he say he wouldn't use them?

I dunno, seems like a cop out.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:59 PM 
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Quote:
I don't know enough about about signing statements to comment, but didn't he say he wouldn't use them?
I dunno, seems like a cop out.


It does.

I wish he hadn't done it.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:21 AM 
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It's more of a semi-copout if anything. He was a little too quick to say "yes" there, though with that being said... the question was "Do you promise not to use Presidential signing statements to get your way?". Well, is it really "his way" that he's going after here? Or simply an attempt to follow the constitution?

I mean, even in those comments there, he goes into some depth of what he's talking about being opposed to. He goes on and on about Bush's use of them SPECIFICALLY for accumulation of power and to subvert his way around Congress.

Regardless of whether he actually had a change of heart or not(it doesn't look like it, really, per his statements), he still needs to follow the constitution. How else is he going to ensure both that Congress does not violate constitutional requirements, and also that he is able to perform his constitutional duties?

Just let it pass because there's an arbitrary belief that signing statements are inherently teh debil? I think not. Good move on Obama's part.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:53 PM 
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Quote:
the question was "Do you promise not to use Presidential signing statements to get your way?".


His quote about not using signing statements as a way to do an end run around congress was pretty direct.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:13 AM 
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I agree that's pretty direct. But I do think the heart of what he was saying there was in reference to Bush using signing statements 10's or 100's of times, or every time legislation passed his desk.

I'm more disappointed in his statements in that video than I am about what he just did. It's something that every President needs to have in order to keep options on the table to avoid ditching your constitutional obligation as President. A simple "Pass/Veto" after months and months of Congress working on a piece of legislation is not a very generous system, and lends itself to the same kind of governmental bureaucratic inefficiency people have complained about for so long.

I'm just glad he's on the right track now, regardless of what he said back then. I'm disappointed that he had to go back on a little of it, but that's as far as my disappointment reaches.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:34 AM 
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Quote:
It's something that every President needs to have in order to keep options on the table to avoid ditching your constitutional obligation as President.


I disagree. I didn't like it when Bush did it (regardless of the number of times) and I dislike it when Obama does it (regardless of the number of times).

Obama in that video even agrees with me. That is, until he had the power himself.

It isn't a question of "avoiding ditching your constitutional obligation", it is a question of the executive branch expanding its power beyond its scope. Obama seemed to understand that and disagreed with it. Until now, apparently. As Obama himself said in the video clip...USING signing statements is ditching his constitutional obligations.

It is probably the most worrisome thing I've seen him do so far.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:13 PM 
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He took an oath to preserve, defend and uphold the Constitution. A case could be made that he cannot effectively do that if the government shuts down over an issue as important as the budget. In order to be capable of defending the Constitution, he needs a sound government running and a power base. Vetoing because he believes certain things within the bill are unconstitutional only hurts that capability via what I just described, and just passing it allows them to break with the Constitution without stop.

If he starts doing this on a regular basis, even when there is no potential for what I described above as Bush did, then I believe we have cause for concern. This was most definitely not a simple pass/veto situation, and his idealization of that was a little naive on his part.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:14 PM 
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To come full circle. Obama's claim that the stimulus would allow Caterpillar to re-hire some of the 22,000 people laid off?

Yeah.

Caterpillar cuts another 2,454 jobs
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ ... 9Z20090317


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:17 PM 
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he doesn't run caterpillar


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:26 PM 
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Stimulus bill funds are only now starting to be disbursed. I'm not sure how one can legimately hold the new President responsible for a lack of manufacturing orders at Caterpillar. Granted that's a totally different thing than whether or not joxur can hold him responsible. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:55 PM 
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Yeah, but Obama had a press conference at Caterpillar touting how this bill will help them AND said that if it passed that day Caterpillar will not be laying off people.

oops.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:56 PM 
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damn it wanted to add "Mission Accomplished?"


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:44 PM 
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I just want to judge him by his own promises, verbatim.

Quote:
President Obama today repeated the claim we asked about yesterday at the press briefing that Jim Owens, the CEO of Caterpillar, Inc., “said that if Congress passes our plan, this company will be able to rehire some of the folks who were just laid off.” …


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:12 AM 
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And hopefully they will, but it's too soon.


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