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 Post subject: Daschle: Beltway Buddie
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:47 AM 
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I love Glenn Greenwald. When he's pissed, he absolutely excoriates people.

The latest is about Tom Daschle as pick for HHS chief. No, this is not about his taxes, though that's a pretty damn good thing to talk about, especially in relation to Obama's pick for Treasury Secretary.

Rather, this is about Obama picking one of the slimiest insiders out there. Read the entire article:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... 1/daschle/

Quote:
Daschle's expertise and insights, gleaned over 26 years in Congress, earned him more than $5 million over the past two years, including $220,000 from the health-care industry, and perks such as a chauffeured Cadillac, according to the documents.


Quote:
Back in June, 2008, when Barack Obama violated his clear commitment to filibuster any bill containing telecom immunity by doing the opposite: voting for cloture on such a bill and then voting of the bill itself, it was -- as Matt Stoller noted at the time -- Tom Daschle who defended Obama's behavior in The Washington Post, by invoking the two leading all-purpose, Obama-justifying clichés: "Those who accomplish the most are those who don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. Barack is a pragmatist."

What Daschle (and The Washington Post) didn't note, but Stoller did, is this:

Quote:
The kicker of course, is that [Daschle's firm] Alston and Bird did work lobbying on immunity for telecoms on FISA [they were AT&T's FISA lobbyist - .pdf], even serving as a recruitment bed for the McCain campaign. And that's what is really going on. Bribery. Tom Daschle goes in the Washington Post and makes the argument that Obama is being pragmatic by caving to big business on a core issue of civil liberties. He preaches the virtues of bipartisanship while working at a firm whose McCain supporting lawyers also support immunity for telecom interests. Meanwhile, Daschle and his wife are and did make enormous sums of money lobbying for the firms benefiting from Obama's so-called pragmatism. It's a sick, perverted, corroded system whereby perpetual political losers like Matt Bennett and affable status quo lobbyists like Tom Daschle push their agenda through journalists like Jonathan Weisman, without any disclosure whatsoever about possible conflicts of interest. And it's bipartisan and flows through the leadership of both parties.

Tom Daschle is going to end up in a powerful position within the Obama administration, either head of HHS or Chief of Staff. He's going to use the millions he and his wife have made to throw parties, give gifts, have a wonderful life, go to important conferences like Davos, and generally preach in favor of "moderation' and 'bipartisanship". What's important here is that we on OpenLeft and in the blogs in general be educated about who these people really are. Tom Daschle's belief is that moderation and moving to the center is pragmatic, and it is. Or at least it is for Tom Daschle. How else would he make a million dollars a year with his friend Bob Dole [who recruited him to join Alston & Byrd]?

Crazy. That last bolded part was stated before the election was over.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:05 PM 
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I'm rather hoping that Howard Dean will end up at HHS. Assuming he wants it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:07 AM 
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Considering he wasn't asked to stay on at the DNC, I doubt there's a place for him.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:27 AM 
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NY Times calls for Daschle to withdraw.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/opini ... ss&emc=rss

Quote:
Mr. Daschle’s financial ties to major players in the health care industry may prove to be even more troublesome as health reform efforts proceed. Like many former power players in Washington, Mr. Daschle cashed in on his political savvy and influence to earn $5 million in recent years, including more than $2 million from Alston & Bird, a law and lobbying firm; more than $2 million from the private equity firm, InterMedia Advisors, which provided the car and driver; and hundreds of thousands of dollars for speeches to interest groups, including those representing health insurance plans, medical equipment distributors and pharmacy boards.

Although Mr. Daschle was not a registered lobbyist, he offered policy advice to the UnitedHealth Group, a huge insurance conglomerate. He was also a trustee of the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, on whose behalf he voiced opposition to a federal loan for a freight rail line near the clinic’s headquarters in Rochester, Minn. The loan was subsequently denied by the Federal Railroad Administration.

Mr. Daschle is another in a long line of politicians who move cozily between government and industry. We don’t know that his industry ties would influence his judgments on health issues, but they could potentially throw a cloud over health care reform. Mr. Daschle could clear the atmosphere by withdrawing his name.
Great track record on nominees so far. So much for the special interest bar on jobs in the WH, eh? We don't hire lobbyists and special interest whores, except when we do.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:50 AM 
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Damn, I can't make this shit up.

ANOTHER Obama nominee linked to tax evasion.

Official: Performance czar withdraws candidacy
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/shared- ... lefer.html

Hard to use the populist message when you're putting lobbyists and tax cheats in your cabinet and the white house.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:52 AM 
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yep.

Obama is pure evil. We're all going to die.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:08 AM 
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Just imagine the roar we'd be hearing if those were McCain or Bush's nominees.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:19 AM 
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krby71 wrote:
Just imagine the roar we'd be hearing if those were McCain or Bush's nominees.

There wouldn't be one. Bush made no effort to keep lobbyists out of his administration. The only reason it's an issue for Obama is because of the promises he's made.

Frankly, it's pissing me off. I voted for Obama, in part because he made it clear he wanted to take the power out of lobbyist hands. Now he appears to be reneging on that promise.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:24 AM 
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Quote:
Just imagine the roar we'd be hearing if those were McCain or Bush's nominees.


Honestly, I have some concerns about these things. My response is pretty much due to the one speaking up and his general unwillingness to look at Obama in any kind of unbiased manner.

Joxur's lost a lot of credibility when it comes to Obama, and it's hard to drum up the desire to even try to reason with him when you know it will be hopeless.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:24 AM 
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This tax shit is getting fucking old. I don't think it's too much to ask Obama to appoint people who pay their fucking taxes.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:59 AM 
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You can hardly blame me for pointing out when I'm right, eh? I spent months telling you that all of this would happen. It's going to be a long 4 years if you're getting upset already.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:12 AM 
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Here's a much better goodie list:

Quote:
• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.


• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint. (lol)

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:28 AM 
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Quote:
Frankly, it's pissing me off. I voted for Obama, in part because he made it clear he wanted to take the power out of lobbyist hands. Now he appears to be reneging on that promise.


The comical part is all you fools lapped his bullshit up like cum drunk gutter sluts and now you are shocked that it is business as usual in Washington.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:31 AM 
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Xkhanx wrote:
The comical part is all you fools lapped his bullshit up like cum drunk gutter sluts and now you are shocked that it is business as usual in Washington.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "business as usual." It's plainly clear that Obama is making a lot of changes. I just want a candidate to at least try to stick to their word when they make a promise, especially one as important as this.

Let's not pretend one broken promise is equal to the ridiculousness of the Bush administration. You want to say "I told you so," wait a couple of years.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:58 AM 
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Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change Blah Blah Blah change

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:01 PM 
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There were things I was unhappy with during the election. There are and will be things I'm unhappy with during his administration.

But don't get it twisted, I still have no doubt that I voted for the right person.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:04 PM 
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Daschle is out.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:27 PM 
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Quote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say "business as usual." It's plainly clear that Obama is making a lot of changes. I just want a candidate to at least try to stick to their word when they make a promise, especially one as important as this.

Let's not pretend one broken promise is equal to the ridiculousness of the Bush administration. You want to say "I told you so," wait a couple of years.
You see, there are two perspectives on this.

One says that Obama should be given time and his work should be evaluated after his changes have had time to mature.

The other, the one I subscribe to, is that he built his campaign on a pledge to change Washington, and that after 8 years of a total piece of shit in Bush, I'm not inclined to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. No politician should be blindly trusted, especially when his first actions defy his promises and the tone of his campaign.

But I'm not a Democrat, I'm independent, and I'm inclined to dislike and be suspicious of all politicians. I don't have any dog in the fight. That's why I won't give a Dem a pass on rendition, spending or stupid policies when I never gave it to Bush.

Politicians should be evaluated through the same lens.

So the tally for the Dems is:

Richardson investigated - withdraws (did you notice the investigation has expanded?)
Geithner - tax cheat
Daschle - tax cheat, withdraws
Killefer - tax cheat, withdraws
Panetta - underqualified, political hack
Al Franken - tax cheat
Rangel - tax cheat
Chris Dodd - sweetheart mortgage deals, no accountability
"No lobbyists in White House" - 2 lobbyists in White House

The huge irony is Biden's insistence during the campaign that it's everyones patriotic duty to not just pay taxes, but pay higher taxes.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:34 PM 
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That's ironic? When they investigate Biden for tax fraud, then you can say it is.

As for the rest, you're assuming an awful lot. Are you an accountant? Do you know the tax code backwards and forwards? A shitload of people fuck up their taxes. The more money you make, the more likely you are to make mistakes. It's why most of us don't get audited: they save that for people who are paying the government a lot of money. Assuming that these people deliberately cheated on their taxes is stupid. It's a waste of time. Are they responsible for any mistakes? Yes. But don't pretend you know the ins and outs of why they were disqualified or withdrew.

I'm an independent voter myself. I'm not giving anyone a pass, which is why I'm disappointed by some of Obama's choices now. But let's not take this shit to extremes and pretend that we either have all the facts (we don't) or we've seen enough to judge (we haven't).

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:45 PM 
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Two of those tax cheats were elected to run departments or lead efforts with direct ties to the IRS. Killefer had a high level job in Treasury previously.

Do you think it's a requirement that someone who wants to run the IRS or parts of the IRS know exactly where they stand on their personal taxes?

Geithner is running Treasury. IRS is a department of the treasury. You don't see a problem here?

It's worse when you look at the populist bullshit Obama has been spewing about banks paying $1 million for office renovations, parties and retreats. how can you rail against banks spending taxpayer dollars while at the same time nominating an insider good 'ol boy in Geithner who hasn't even given his share of those taxpayer dollars?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:45 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Two of those tax cheats

Well, whatever. Believe what you want. I'll withhold judgment until I've seen something that actually says they cheated rather than just made a mistake. Which, apparently, seems to be enough to disqualify people from public service nowadays.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:54 PM 
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List of lobbyists in the Obama administration according to Politico.
(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/18128.html)

Quote:
* Eric Holder, attorney general nominee, was registered to lobby until 2004 on behalf of clients including Global Crossing, a bankrupt telecommunications firm [now confirmed].
* Tom Vilsack, secretary of agriculture nominee, was registered to lobby as recently as last year on behalf of the National Education Association.
* William Lynn, deputy defense secretary nominee, was registered to lobby as recently as last year for defense contractor Raytheon, where he was a top executive.
* William Corr, deputy health and human services secretary nominee, was registered to lobby until last year for the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, a non-profit that pushes to limit tobacco use.
* David Hayes, deputy interior secretary nominee, was registered to lobby until 2006 for clients, including the regional utility San Diego Gas & Electric.
* Mark Patterson, chief of staff to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, was registered to lobby as recently as last year for financial giant Goldman Sachs.
* Ron Klain, chief of staff to Vice President Joe Biden, was registered to lobby until 2005 for clients, including the Coalition for Asbestos Resolution, U.S. Airways, Airborne Express and drug-maker ImClone.
* Mona Sutphen, deputy White House chief of staff, was registered to lobby for clients, including Angliss International in 2003.
* Melody Barnes, domestic policy council director, lobbied in 2003 and 2004 for liberal advocacy groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, the American Constitution Society and the Center for Reproductive Rights.
* Cecilia Munoz, White House director of intergovernmental affairs, was a lobbyist as recently as last year for the National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic advocacy group.
* Patrick Gaspard, White House political affairs director, was a lobbyist for the Service Employees International Union.
* Michael Strautmanis, chief of staff to the president’s assistant for intergovernmental relations, lobbied for the American Association of Justice from 2001 until 2005.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:43 PM 
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Here's what I find amusing.

A: HAHAHA LOOK UPON YOUR MESSIAH OBAMA HE HAS FAILED!
b: I'm really disappointed in Obama on this issue.
A: HAHAHA WE TOLD YOU SO, BUT NOOO YOU JUST LAPPED UP THE KOOL-AID
b: No, I'm still very happy overall with Obama, I'm just going to be critical when there is a need to be of course.
A: HAHAHAHA KEEP DRINKING THE KOOL AID OF YOUR MESSIAH YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
b: Huh? I don't blindly accept everything, in fact I'm critical on this issue!
A: HAHAHAHA I TOLD YOU SO I TOLD YOU SO YOUR MESSIAH HAS FAILED!
b: 0_o
A: ALL ABOARD THE FAILBOAT TOOT TOOT TOOT! *runs around without pants*
b: backs away slowly, avoiding eye contact.


Seems that no matter what the reality is some people see just what they want to see. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:06 PM 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_polarization

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:18 PM 
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My question at this point is what, exactly, are you happy about? I keep hearing lots of people saying they are happy overall or they are being patiently supportive but what exactly has he done to inspire that confidence?

To me he has:
~ broken 2 or 3 (depending on how you tally them) promises, one completely unnecessarily.
~ begun a process to 'protect his image' that screams bad things to me.
~ reminded the country again & again & again of how bad things are, like we need to be told.

I hope he succeeds at some of the promises he made. I hope he fails on others. One thing I know: if he creates one more study group or 'czar' or some other catch-phrase position to distance himself from his own policies and delay action I will scream.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:23 PM 
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Bearne,

You hold Bush to one set of standards and Obama to another. I agree, your wikipedia links are devastating to you and others here. Great job :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:34 PM 
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Impressively toolish. Even for you.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:46 PM 
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How so? I implied you are a hypocrite after you implied I am a hypocrite. Ain't life grand?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:50 PM 
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Bah, hit reply to soon.

I don't hold intentionally hold Bush and Obama to separate standards. I extended a lot of leeway to Bush for the first couple of months, hoping to be pleasantly surprised. As a then-Naderite, I had no truck in the Florida debacle. And things like the Africa AIDS initiative were very encouraging as symbols of the theoretical possibilities of "compassionate conservatism."

Do I extend Obama more leeway today than I extended to Bush once he squandered the opportunity to combat Al Qaeda and the Taliban and help rebuild Afganistan by initiating conflict in Iraq? Yes, of course. I consider 2002 - 2008 to have been a long national nightmare. *But* - and this is an important "but," I believe that I would have extended similiar leeway to a pre-Palin McCain (post Palin is a whole other story). Not identical - I gave money to Obama, not to McCain, but similar.

The thing about the links I posted? Actually have very little to do with my reaction to the Obama administration. It was more an indication of my confirmation bias with, well, you, Joxur. Pretty much anything you post, I will automatically disagree with, as a matter of gut reaction.

Intellectually, I consider it an interesting phenomena. Practically, it means that I'm willing to engage in dialogue and concede points with Sarissa, krby, Khan on issues where they agree with you. Since I'm planning to focus my accounting research on investor judgment and decision-making processes once I start my Ph.D. in the fall, I find it wryly amusing.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:56 PM 
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Quote:
My question at this point is what, exactly, are you happy about?


Honestly, be realistic. What great sweeping effects do you think Obama could have had already, sheesh. The Office of the President isn't a seat at the great Code of America where he can just change some code and hit compile and have everything change.

It doesn't matter if you support Obama or not, to sit there and say, "ZOMG WATS HE DUN?!?!" already is as stupid as blaming 9/11 on Bush was.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:08 PM 
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Actually I DO blame Bush for 9/11.

What could Obama have done?
~Actually kept the 'lobbyist' promise.
~Posted the Ledbetter legislation for public comment.
~Immediately have withdrawn his nominees with tax/nanny/lobby difficulties.
~Proposed a stimulus package that wasn't full of wasteful spending & earmarks. (putting it on a website after it passes really doesn't give anyone a chance to object huh?)

There are other things he could have done, like not fearmongering among the biggest.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:08 AM 
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Joxur, while I think engaging you on this topic is a little pointless because you are just continuing to demonstrate a "seeing what you want to see/find what you want to find", I will point out that the differences between Obama and Bush are still pretty clear to me.

Obama on Daschle:

Quote:
"I think I screwed up," Obama said in a wide-ranging interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper.
"And, I take responsibility for it and we're going to make sure we fix it so it doesn't happen again."


Had it been Bush, Daschle would still be pushed forward and shotgunned through to his position.

As for the lobbyist thing, I have to admit I've been a little distracted with planning my return to the US, but I was under the impression it was a stance of "lobbyists can't work in the area they worked as a lobbyist in" and NOT "lobbyists won't be working in my administration". Am I incorrect in this? Things like "secretary of agriculture nominee" having been a lobbyist for "education" seem to pan that out. But like I said, I'm unclear on this as I've been focusing on other things of late.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:51 AM 
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Rugen, Obama said three different things during the campaign:

~Lobbyists will not work in the area they had previously lobbied in. This is the most important one in my mind and is the one where he has issued 2 waivers already. If Daschle had been confirmed would have issued a 3rd.

~No member of the Administration who leaves can lobby while Obama is still President. This he has addressed in the rules and as nobody has left the administration yet it is hard to tell whether waivers will be given; although it will be interesting to see if Daschle & his wife return to lobbying.

~The more general promise about lobbyists is the one about taking power from the lobbyists and returning it to the voters. This is the one that many believe he has broken the spirit of by appointing so many lobbyists to his administration.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:14 AM 
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The Ledbetter legislation has been in the works since 2007. It passed the House and was killed in the Senate last year. There's been plenty of time for comment.

And Kula: Show me the last bill this magnitude that had only 2% allocated toward pork projects.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:24 AM 
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Leolan wrote:
The Ledbetter legislation has been in the works since 2007. It passed the House and was killed in the Senate last year. There's been plenty of time for comment.


Leo, come on! The promise was that it would be posted on the WH website for public comment. The opportunity for random comments on random blogs do NOT meet the promise of posting legislation for public comment that will theoretically be read by the Administration.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:25 AM 
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Why not keep that promise? It was a damned simple one and would have hurt nothing and nobody...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:28 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Why not keep that promise? It was a damned simple one and would have hurt nothing and nobody...

Was it a promise? I don't remember that being said.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:28 AM 
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I can't comment on the language of the promise itself because I don't know it. All I can discuss is its intent and the sentiments with which it was likely made.

The goal, as I understand it, is to prevent legislation from being pushed through a Democratic House and Senate to be signed by the Democratic president without any time to gauge America's reaction to it. The Fair Pay legislation doesn't fit that mold because it's been circulating since 2007.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:32 AM 
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Quote:
To reduce bills rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them, Obama "will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days."


There ya go. Where was the emergency? Regardless of what you think the intent of the promise was the promise was made and broken for no good reason. Not confidence-inspiring and over something that certainly could have been delayed for a few days...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:38 AM 
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Leolan wrote:
And Kula: Show me the last bill this magnitude that had only 2% allocated toward pork projects.


Sorry, Leo. Missed that part of your post.

Comparisons to the past are ridiculous and I'm unclear where you got that 2% number. Obama raised the bar on his Administration's performance himself. He chose to run for office in a way that preached hope and change and appealed to the intellectual idealists around the country. I don't think asking him to at least give the appearance of living up to those ideals for a couple of weeks is really asking all that much.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:38 AM 
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That's still lacking context. It's not something I'm going to debate. I really don't think it's a big deal either way. It sits five days or it doesn't. Either way, the intent of such a comment is likely the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:41 AM 
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Leolan wrote:
That's still lacking context. It's not something I'm going to debate. I really don't think it's a big deal either way. It sits five days or it doesn't. Either way, the intent of such a comment is likely the same.


Of course you don't. Promises by politicians are made to be broken, right? Again, I don't think that it is asking too much to want him to actually stand by his own words for a little while; especially when he is supposedly trying to restore public trust in their government.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:48 AM 
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The promise can be found on Obama's campaign site: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ethics/


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:02 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
The promise can be found on Obama's campaign site: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ethics/

Okay, I see what you're referring to. However, I think you're asking for that to be applied without exception, when in this case the bill didn't need further time to be reviewed. It hadn't been rushed through. It's been discussed for a couple of years now, and holding off another 5 days was unnecessary. Did it hurt to do so? I've no idea, because I'm unsure how it affects current cases regarding pay discrimination. But it wasn't necessary.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:23 AM 
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There's a lot to respond to, since I haven't looked at the boards in a bit.

Bearne, I'm trying to reconcile this statement: "I don't hold intentionally hold Bush and Obama to separate standards." with the first statement in the next paragraph: "Do I extend Obama more leeway today than I extended to Bush once he squandered the opportunity to combat Al Qaeda and the Taliban and help rebuild Afganistan by initiating conflict in Iraq? Yes, of course."

Rugen wrote:
Had it been Bush, Daschle would still be pushed forward and shotgunned through to his position.
Uhh... you mean like Geithner?

Rugen wrote:
As for the lobbyist thing, I have to admit I've been a little distracted with planning my return to the US, but I was under the impression it was a stance of "lobbyists can't work in the area they worked as a lobbyist in" and NOT "lobbyists won't be working in my administration". Am I incorrect in this? Things like "secretary of agriculture nominee" having been a lobbyist for "education" seem to pan that out. But like I said, I'm unclear on this as I've been focusing on other things of late.
Go ahead and find out what he actually said when you have time. Regardless, the #2 official for the pentagon was a lobbyist for Raytheon, a defense contractor. "William Lynn, deputy defense secretary nominee, was registered to lobby as recently as last year for defense contractor Raytheon, where he was a top executive."

After Halliburton, doesn't that make you uncomfortable?

Leolan wrote:
I can't comment on the language of the promise itself because I don't know it. All I can discuss is its intent and the sentiments with which it was likely made.
That's called spin, Leo.

Here's a nice write-up: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... signing-b/

Here's what he said specifically:

"Too often bills are rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them," Obama's campaign Web site states. "As president, Obama will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days."

That's pretty unequivocal.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:31 AM 
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"Bearne, I'm trying to reconcile this statement: "I don't hold intentionally hold Bush and Obama to separate standards." with the first statement in the next paragraph: "Do I extend Obama more leeway today than I extended to Bush once he squandered the opportunity to combat Al Qaeda and the Taliban and help rebuild Afganistan by initiating conflict in Iraq? Yes, of course.""

Why is it hard to reconcile? I gave Bush leeway at first. He squandered it. I stopped giving him leeway. I'm giving Obama leeway, now, at first. If Obama squanders his, I'll stop giving him leeway, as well. Where's the inconsistency?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:24 AM 
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joxur wrote:
"Too often bills are rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them," Obama's campaign Web site states. "As president, Obama will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days."

That's pretty unequivocal.

Except that this bill wasn't rushed through. It's not as if this was slipped past the American public. So yeah, it wasn't posted, but the intent of that rule was to prevent shady shit from being passed without much time for the public to look at it. That's not what was happening here, so bitching about it comes across as looking for a reason to bitch.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:28 AM 
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Well, it's a good thing that there are so many of you who will defense the asterisks of the administration, isn't it?

It was clearly not an emergency measure, so there was no valid reason to delay. And I think the high-minded aim of his promise was to introduce transparency. The purpose of the public vetting is as much about disclosure and making people aware as it is about the contents of the bill.

So what if it had been in the works? Did YOU know about it? Did anyone?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:43 AM 
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I knew about it. It was one of the central themes of Women's Night at the Dem convention, capped by Hilary's speech. Ledbetter herself even made an appearance. And I watched the full evening coverage of both conventions on C*SPAN (after the first night of the Dem one - I mistakenly watched MSNBC on Night One).

So probably anyone sufficiently wonky about national politics and/or who keeps up on gender equality and politics was aware of it. But I doubt it was known to the public at large.

I think it should have been posted for comment, and dislike that it wasn't. It would it be easy to say that it doens't matter becuase it is a non-controversial bill that's been floating for years. I know that if EDNA finally passes, I would want to see it signed right away.

If the public comment thing isn't going to work, then it should be done away with ASAP, IMHO, along with an explanation of why its proven unworkable.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:48 AM 
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I think the point is that people like you are already aware of it, just like I am already aware of things in my sphere of interest. The promise doesn't change that, and won't.

It's there to allow people who might never know about something become aware of it. People who aren't interested in it day to day.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:50 AM 
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bearne wrote:
I knew about it. It was one of the central themes of Women's Night at the Dem convention, capped by Hilary's speech. Ledbetter herself even made an appearance. And I watched the full evening coverage of both conventions on C*SPAN (after the first night of the Dem one - I mistakenly watched MSNBC on Night One).

So probably anyone sufficiently wonky about national politics and/or who keeps up on gender equality and politics was aware of it. But I doubt it was known to the public at large.

I think it should have been posted for comment, and dislike that it wasn't. It would it be easy to say that it doens't matter becuase it is a non-controversial bill that's been floating for years. I know that if EDNA finally passes, I would want to see it signed right away.

If the public comment thing isn't going to work, then it should be done away with ASAP, IMHO, along with an explanation of why its proven unworkable.


I knew about it also. I agree with everything you've said here. There simply is no explanation forthcoming about why they couldn't uphold the promise and that is business as usual in DC. Transparency doesn't mean Obama gets to decide what needs to be seen by the public, it means that no legislation will be passed that is non-emergency without an opportunity for public comment on the WH website.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:22 PM 
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Thanks for giving us the link to the campaign site. That helps clear this up. Again, http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ethics -- italics mine
Quote:
Shine the Light on Federal Contracts, Tax Breaks and Earmarks

Create a Public “Contracts and Influence” Database: As president, Obama will create a "contracts and influence" database that will disclose how much federal contractors spend on lobbying, and what contracts they are getting and how well they complete them.

Expose Special Interest Tax Breaks to Public Scrutiny: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will ensure that any tax breaks for corporate recipients — or tax earmarks — are also publicly available on the Internet in an easily searchable format.

End Abuse of No-Bid Contracts: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will end abuse of no-bid contracts by requiring that nearly all contract orders over $25,000 be competitively awarded.

Sunlight Before Signing: Too often bills are rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them. As president, Obama will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days.

Shine Light on Earmarks and Pork Barrel Spending: Obama's Transparency and Integrity in Earmarks Act will shed light on all earmarks by disclosing the name of the legislator who asked for each earmark, along with a written justification, 72 hours before they can be approved by the full Senate.
Look at the whole section. It's clear that this language is talking about expenditures and letting America know where our money is going. The Ledbetter Fair Pay Act wasn't an expenditure and it had ample time for discussion. Read past the sound bite.


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The highlighted portion has nothing to do with spending. It says "any" non-emergency bill.

I'd suggest your next tact to be finding a way to narrowly define bill so that this particular item slips though on technicalities. I'm not with you on the spending thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:48 PM 
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Leo, so you're ok with the Administration deciding what should & shouldn't be posted for public comment that the Administration will theoretically read?

I repeat, the nonposting of the Ledbetter Act was stupid and unnecessary. Especially from an Administration supposedly about transparency and restoring public trust in government. Keeping the promise would have been a costless way to start off the Presidency on the right foot. Not posting it sends all the wrong signals.

Parsing the promise is pure political spin to avoid admitting they made a dumb move.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:52 PM 
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joxur wrote:
So what if it had been in the works? Did YOU know about it? Did anyone?

Yeah, actually. That shit had been all over the news for years. Are you going to say you'd never heard of it until it was signed? If that's the case, you need to pull your head out of your ass and watch the news once in a while.

If it wasn't in your "sphere of interest," then you wouldn't have read it anyways and the whole point is moot. Again, you're bitching for no other reason than to bitch.

Quote:
I repeat, the nonposting of the Ledbetter Act was stupid and unnecessary. Especially from an Administration supposedly about transparency and restoring public trust in government. Keeping the promise would have been a costless way to start off the Presidency on the right foot. Not posting it sends all the wrong signals.

Actually, posting it would have been unnecessary, since the obvious intent of Obama's promise was to prevent bills being quietly signed into law. This shit was ALL OVER THE NEWS. It's not the President's fault if you've not read a newspaper or watched CNN in the past year. Again, you're bitching about something that's a non-issue.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:00 PM 
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Tyral wrote:
Actually, posting it would have been unnecessary, since the obvious intent of Obama's promise was to prevent bills being quietly signed into law. This shit was ALL OVER THE NEWS. It's not the President's fault if you've not read a newspaper or watched CNN in the past year. Again, you're bitching about something that's a non-issue.


Nope. Posting it would have been an easy, cost-free way to signal that he planned to keep his word. All kinds of shit is ALL OVER THE NEWS. That doesn't excuse his choice to break a promise that he wasn't forced to make but chose to make. I knew about and supported the legislation. That isn't why his action is offensive. It's the fact that he said he would post "all non-emergency bill"s and didn't for no good reason.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:03 PM 
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Talk about petty.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:05 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Nope. Posting it would have been an easy, cost-free way to signal that he planned to keep his word. All kinds of shit is ALL OVER THE NEWS. That doesn't excuse his choice to break a promise that he wasn't forced to make but chose to make. I knew about and supported the legislation. That isn't why his action is offensive. It's the fact that he said he would post "all non-emergency bill"s and didn't for no good reason.

You've not addressed the obvious intent of his promise regarding bills. You also have no idea how not signing it immediately could have negatively impacted cases that hinged on this bill's signing, so don't pretend that you know there wasn't a good reason.

And if you think his action was "offensive" then you certainly have a ridiculous measure for offensiveness.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:42 PM 
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I see nothing "obvious" about his intent. In your quest to excuse any/all Obama actions you may spin it any way you choose but his promise in his or his staff's own words is to "not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days". Pretty simple and nothing there about itr only referring to spending bills. In fact 'pork', earmarks and taxes are addressed in other sections of the promise.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:43 PM 
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Apparently there is some confusion about the word "any", Kula.

Some people seem to think it means "most", or "some". Maybe they can elaborate.


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