It is currently Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:19 PM


All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:02 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
John Coleman, the founder of The Weather Channel has written another piece about Global Warming including some of the history. Since Al Gore was giving his side in Congress, I thought I'd post this.
link
Quote:
The Amazing Story Behind The Global Warming Scam
By John Coleman
January 28, 2009

The key players are now all in place in Washington and in state governments across America to officially label carbon dioxide as a pollutant and enact laws that tax we citizens for our carbon footprints. Only two details stand in the way, the faltering economic times and a dramatic turn toward a colder climate. The last two bitter winters have lead to a rise in public awareness that CO2 is not a pollutant and is not a significant greenhouse gas that is triggering runaway global warming.

How did we ever get to this point where bad science is driving big government we have to struggle so to stop it?

The story begins with an Oceanographer named Roger Revelle. He served with the Navy in World War II. After the war he became the Director of the Scripps Oceanographic Institute in La Jolla in San Diego, California. Revelle saw the opportunity to obtain major funding from the Navy for doing measurements and research on the ocean around the Pacific Atolls where the US military was conducting atomic bomb tests. He greatly expanded the Institute’s areas of interest and among others hired Hans Suess, a noted Chemist from the University of Chicago, who was very interested in the traces of carbon in the environment from the burning of fossil fuels. Revelle tagged on to Suess studies and co-authored a paper with him in 1957. The paper raises the possibility that the carbon dioxide might be creating a greenhouse effect and causing atmospheric warming. It seems to be a plea for funding for more studies. Funding, frankly, is where Revelle’s mind was most of the time.

Next Revelle hired a Geochemist named David Keeling to devise a way to measure the atmospheric content of Carbon dioxide. In 1960 Keeling published his first paper showing the increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and linking the increase to the burning of fossil fuels.

These two research papers became the bedrock of the science of global warming, even though they offered no proof that carbon dioxide was in fact a greenhouse gas. In addition they failed to explain how this trace gas, only a tiny fraction of the atmosphere, could have any significant impact on temperatures.

Now let me take you back to the1950s when this was going on. Our cities were entrapped in a pall of pollution from the crude internal combustion engines that powered cars and trucks back then and from the uncontrolled emissions from power plants and factories. Cars and factories and power plants were filling the air with all sorts of pollutants. There was a valid and serious concern about the health consequences of this pollution and a strong environmental movement was developing to demand action. Government accepted this challenge and new environmental standards were set. Scientists and engineers came to the rescue. New reformulated fuels were developed for cars, as were new high tech, computer controlled engines and catalytic converters. By the mid seventies cars were no longer big time polluters, emitting only some carbon dioxide and water vapor from their tail pipes. Likewise, new fuel processing and smoke stack scrubbers were added to industrial and power plants and their emissions were greatly reduced, as well.

But an environmental movement had been established and its funding and very existence depended on having a continuing crisis issue. So the research papers from Scripps came at just the right moment. And, with them came the birth of an issue; man-made global warming from the carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels.

Revelle and Keeling used this new alarmism to keep their funding growing. Other researchers with environmental motivations and a hunger for funding saw this developing and climbed aboard as well. The research grants began to flow and alarming hypothesis began to show up everywhere.

The Keeling curve showed a steady rise in CO2 in atmosphere during the period since oil and coal were discovered and used by man. As of today, carbon dioxide has increased from 215 to 385 parts per million. But, despite the increases, it is still only a trace gas in the atmosphere. While the increase is real, the percentage of the atmosphere that is CO2 remains tiny, about .41 hundredths of one percent.

Several hypothesis emerged in the 70s and 80s about how this tiny atmospheric component of CO2 might cause a significant warming. But they remained unproven. Years have passed and the scientists kept reaching out for evidence of the warming and proof of their theories. And, the money and environmental claims kept on building up.

Back in the 1960s, this global warming research came to the attention of a Canadian born United Nation’s bureaucrat named Maurice Strong. He was looking for issues he could use to fulfill his dream of one-world government. Strong organized a World Earth Day event in Stockholm, Sweden in 1970. From this he developed a committee of scientists, environmentalists and political operatives from the UN to continue a series of meeting.

Strong developed the concept that the UN could demand payments from the advanced nations for the climatic damage from their burning of fossil fuels to benefit the underdeveloped nations, a sort of CO2 tax that would be the funding for his one-world government. But, he needed more scientific evidence to support his primary thesis. So Strong championed the establishment of the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. This was not a pure climate study scientific organization, as we have been lead to believe. It was an organization of one-world government UN bureaucrats, environmental activists and environmentalist scientists who craved the UN funding so they could produce the science they needed to stop the burning of fossil fuels. Over the last 25 years they have been very effective. Hundreds of scientific papers, four major international meetings and reams of news stories about climatic Armageddon later, the UN IPCC has made its points to the satisfaction of most and even shared a Nobel Peace Prize with Al Gore.

At the same time, that Maurice Strong was busy at the UN, things were getting a bit out of hand for the man who is now called the grandfather of global warming, Roger Revelle. He had been very politically active in the late 1950’s as he worked to have the University of California locate a San Diego campus adjacent to Scripps Institute in La Jolla. He won that major war, but lost an all important battle afterward when he was passed over in the selection of the first Chancellor of the new campus.

He left Scripps finally in 1963 and moved to Harvard University to establish a Center for Population Studies. It was there that Revelle inspired one of his students to become a major global warming activist. This student would say later, "It felt like such a privilege to be able to hear about the readouts from some of those measurements in a group of no more than a dozen undergraduates. Here was this teacher presenting something not years old but fresh out of the lab, with profound implications for our future!" The student described him as "a wonderful, visionary professor" who was "one of the first people in the academic community to sound the alarm on global warming," That student was Al Gore. He thought of Dr. Revelle as his mentor and referred to him frequently, relaying his experiences as a student in his book Earth in the Balance, published in 1992.

So there it is, Roger Revelle was indeed the grandfather of global warming. His work had laid the foundation for the UN IPCC, provided the anti-fossil fuel ammunition to the environmental movement and sent Al Gore on his road to his books, his move, his Nobel Peace Prize and a hundred million dollars from the carbon credits business.

What happened next is amazing. The global warming frenzy was becoming the cause celeb of the media. After all the media is mostly liberal, loves Al Gore, loves to warn us of impending disasters and tell us "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". The politicians and the environmentalist loved it, too.

But the tide was turning with Roger Revelle. He was forced out at Harvard at 65 and returned to California and a semi retirement position at UCSD. There he had time to rethink Carbon Dioxide and the greenhouse effect. The man who had inspired Al Gore and given the UN the basic research it needed to launch its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was having second thoughts. In 1988 he wrote two cautionary letters to members of Congress. He wrote, "My own personal belief is that we should wait another 10 or 20 years to really be convinced that the greenhouse effect is going to be important for human beings, in both positive and negative ways." He added, "…we should be careful not to arouse too much alarm until the rate and amount of warming becomes clearer."

And in 1991 Revelle teamed up with Chauncey Starr, founding director of the Electric Power Research Institute and Fred Singer, the first director of the U.S. Weather Satellite Service, to write an article for Cosmos magazine. They urged more research and begged scientists and governments not to move too fast to curb greenhouse CO2 emissions because the true impact of carbon dioxide was not at all certain and curbing the use of fossil fuels could have a huge negative impact on the economy and jobs and our standard of living. I have discussed this collaboration with Dr. Singer. He assures me that Revelle was considerably more certain than he was at the time that carbon dioxide was not a problem.

Did Roger Revelle attend the Summer enclave at the Bohemian Grove in Northern California in the Summer of 1990 while working on that article? Did he deliver a lakeside speech there to the assembled movers and shakers from Washington and Wall Street in which he apologized for sending the UN IPCC and Al Gore onto this wild goose chase about global warming? Did he say that the key scientific conjecture of his lifetime had turned out wrong? The answer to those questions is, "I think so, but I do not know it for certain". I have not managed to get it confirmed as of this moment. It’s a little like Las Vegas; what is said at the Bohemian Grove stays at the Bohemian Grove. There are no transcripts or recordings and people who attend are encouraged not to talk. Yet, the topic is so important, that some people have shared with me on an informal basis.

Roger Revelle died of a heart attack three months after the Cosmos story was printed. Oh, how I wish he were still alive today. He might be able to stop this scientific silliness and end the global warming scam.

Al Gore has dismissed Roger Revelle’s Mea culpa as the actions of senile old man. And, the next year, while running for Vice President, he said the science behind global warming is settled and there will be no more debate, From 1992 until today, he and his cohorts have refused to debate global warming and when ask about we skeptics they simply insult us and call us names.

So today we have the acceptance of carbon dioxide as the culprit of global warming. It is concluded that when we burn fossil fuels we are leaving a dastardly carbon footprint which we must pay Al Gore or the environmentalists to offset. Our governments on all levels are considering taxing the use of fossil fuels. The Federal Environmental Protection Agency is on the verge of naming CO2 as a pollutant and strictly regulating its use to protect our climate. The new President and the US congress are on board. Many state governments are moving on the same course.

We are already suffering from this CO2 silliness in many ways. Our energy policy has been strictly hobbled by no drilling and no new refineries for decades. We pay for the shortage this has created every time we buy gas. On top of that the whole thing about corn based ethanol costs us millions of tax dollars in subsidies. That also has driven up food prices. And, all of this is a long way from over.

And, I am totally convinced there is no scientific basis for any of it.

Global Warming. It is the hoax. It is bad science. It is a high jacking of public policy. It is no joke. It is the greatest scam in history.


go ahead flame me, it is cold outside.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:08 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
I'm going to trust the majority of the science community on this one. No flames, just don't feel like going through the bull yet again.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:16 AM 
Grrrrrrrr!
Grrrrrrrr!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:27 AM
Posts: 2318
Location: KC, MO
PASS


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:27 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
where is the :sheep or :lemming icon?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:32 AM 
Cazic Thule owned RoA
Cazic Thule owned RoA

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:19 AM
Posts: 1656
Location: Baltimore, MD
EQ1: Sarissa Candyangel
WoW: Sarix
Science is not a democracy. Something is either fact, is not fact, or is not yet demonstrated. Climate science, as far as man-caused warming is concerned, falls into the third category.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:37 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
I agree with that, not yet determined. Dumping BILLION$ into something that has not been determined is not very smart in my book.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:56 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Even if we don't know for a fact that man is causing a great deal of global warming....it's the planet. It's the only one we have. We already know that many of the things that we attribute to causing global warming are pretty bad in and of themselves anyway.

So what's the big objection to just trying to NOT harm the environment if we can choose that option in a reasonable manner? It's almost like people forget the scope of things here, it's the ENTIRE PLANET.

I don't mean some radical hippie commune movement where we all learn to live on nothing but organic soy or something and only get around on foot. But even if you don't believe in global warming, it's hard to argue against the existing impact we have on environments around us, why do people fight so tooth and nail against the idea of trying to lessen that impact?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:58 PM 
10 Years? God im old!
10 Years? God im old!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:50 AM
Posts: 947
The flying Spaghetti Monster is in the Arctic right now with a Giant Hairdryer!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:17 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:35 PM
Posts: 3926
So this John Coleman guy is a meteorologist that worked for a bazillion different TV stations and forecasted weather, what experience does he have in climate science by chance? Where can we see some of his scientific reports?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:28 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:43 PM
Posts: 1323
First - synopsis please.

Second - who gives a shit about global warming? Spewing shit in the air is bad, that has been proven time and time again. /google SMOG

Third - we have limited resources, we should do our best to reasonable preserve them. The problem is two-fold:
A) Idiot conservatives who won't admit conservation is good
B) Idiot liberals who want all-or-nothing

Fourth - I don't care too much because I plan to die before any of this is a serious problem and by then I will probably hate my children.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:37 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
The things that stick out to me are these:
1 - The entire human history has not created as many "greenhouse gasses" as many individual volcanoes.
2 - The temperature variations on Earth are the same as measured on many other planets and moons in our solar system
3 - How much money has Al Gore personally made on his global recommendations?
4 - The Earth's temperature is in a constant state of flux, it goes from hot to ice age. This has been going on for billions of years. Are we to think that we have the power to change this? We can't cool the deserts or warm up arctic regions, bring water to drought stricken areas or dry flooded areas.
5 - So many other scientific studies that were thought were absolute certain have been determined to be completely wrong. Remember in the 70's there was massive global cooling and in the 80's the Ozone hole was going to kill us all within ten years? For so-called scientists to say that the debate is over leads me to raise many questions. A scientist should never stop asking questions.
6 - We are in a global economic crisis. Many of the solutions the climate change crowd want to implement will introduce additional barriers to rebound our economy.

I am not for protecting the environment. I want cleaner, better, faster, and safer but I don't want to cut my hand off to fix a hang-nail.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:25 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Like I said, I'm not going to go through all that again. I can point out, though, that every single one of those points have been addressed and knocked down both on these boards and just about every where else before. You post this like it's new, but if you just went and looked through our previous threads on this subject, you'd see that all of those points have been countered.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:28 AM 
Oh yeah? How 'bout I kick your ass?
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:58 AM
Posts: 1967
EQ1: Xkhan
WoW: Xkhan
Quote:
you'd see that all of those points have been countered


On both sides of the argument.

I would tend to fall more on this guys side of the argument especially when he mentions taxing everyone on their carbon footprint and how this is completely funding driven.

_________________
Image
_____
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
_____
VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:26 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:21 PM
Posts: 473
You will be fined for breathing heavily!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:51 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:43 PM
Posts: 1323
Let's play a game. I will read all your points and give you the benefit of the doubt.

krby71 wrote:
The things that stick out to me are these:
1 - The entire human history has not created as many "greenhouse gasses" as many individual volcanoes.
Man has never emited a single "greenhouse gas". You win!

krby71 wrote:
2 - The temperature variations on Earth are the same as measured on many other planets and moons in our solar system
Man has nothing to do with climate change, it's the Sun. You win.

krby71 wrote:
3 - How much money has Al Gore personally made on his global recommendations?
Al Gore has made ONE BILLION DOLLARS and eats Fat Burger all day. You win.

krby71 wrote:
4 - The Earth's temperature is in a constant state of flux, it goes from hot to ice age. This has been going on for billions of years. Are we to think that we have the power to change this? We can't cool the deserts or warm up arctic regions, bring water to drought stricken areas or dry flooded areas.
You are right, we are impotent. You win.

krby71 wrote:
5 - So many other scientific studies that were thought were absolute certain have been determined to be completely wrong. Remember in the 70's there was massive global cooling and in the 80's the Ozone hole was going to kill us all within ten years? For so-called scientists to say that the debate is over leads me to raise many questions. A scientist should never stop asking questions.
All scientists are wrong. You win.

krby71 wrote:
6 - We are in a global economic crisis. Many of the solutions the climate change crowd want to implement will introduce additional barriers to rebound our economy.
You are right, we are in a global economic crisis. You win.

Quote:
I am not for protecting the environment. I want cleaner, better, faster, and safer but I don't want to cut my hand off to fix a hang-nail.
You are right, I certainly don't want to cut my hand off, GOLLY!

Now, giving you all those assumptions, I still stand by this:
Putting stuff in the air is bad.
Breathing dirty air is bad.
We should look for creative ways to keep the planet clean.

I win! Yay!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:38 PM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
Now, giving you all those assumptions, I still stand by this:
Putting stuff in the air is bad.
Breathing dirty air is bad.
We should look for creative ways to keep the planet clean.

I win! Yay!


1. Not necessarily. How about we do some RESEARCH on what is bad, why it's bad, how much is considered bad, and what the fuck "bad" really means. Something quantifiable would be nice.

2. No argument there.

3. I think that's great. It will work great until the Great Terra Over-Sanitization Scare of 2042. I can't wait for the articles then. The polar bear commercials should be priceless.

I support research, and lots of it. Not only in what's happening (we have a good idea there), but what we can do to prevent it WITHOUT overreacting and causing more harm and fucking up policy in the process. For example, support carbon credits makes you a fucking idiot. Giving the WWF six billion dollars to "save polar bears" makes you a fucking idiot. A compassionate idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:01 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:35 PM
Posts: 3926
I still want to know why Al Gore is grouped up in a series of bullet points on scientific "data".

Hay Guyz, Isaac Newton killed 500 people and made money off their deaths, therefore his equations are wrong!

Let me know if you see the disconnect there.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:44 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Does anybody else think that the Global warming issue is the new abortion issue?

There are solid cases for against as well as for it, its all in what you want to believe no arguing or statement is going to change the way people think about it.

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:46 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
I prefer to compare it to Creationism. Despite overwhelming agreement in the scientific community, a small group of politically powerful people continue to lead the sheep of the country astray with claims that it is "controversial."


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:10 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:43 PM
Posts: 1323
Elessar wrote:
1. Not necessarily. How about we do some RESEARCH on what is bad, why it's bad, how much is considered bad, and what the fuck "bad" really means. Something quantifiable would be nice.

2. No argument there.

3. I think that's great. It will work great until the Great Terra Over-Sanitization Scare of 2042. I can't wait for the articles then. The polar bear commercials should be priceless.

I support research, and lots of it. Not only in what's happening (we have a good idea there), but what we can do to prevent it WITHOUT overreacting and causing more harm and fucking up policy in the process. For example, support carbon credits makes you a fucking idiot. Giving the WWF six billion dollars to "save polar bears" makes you a fucking idiot. A compassionate idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.
I think you shoudl scroll up to see my earlier post. Beyond that, you miss my entire point.

I'll simplify:
1. Is global warming real and are we causing it: I don't really care right now.
2. Humans do have an impact of the planet. The extent is debatable, but there are lots of indisputable changes caused by people. For example, polluted waterways, smog in cities, whales teetering on extinction.
3. We probably should do our best to conserve.

This doesn't mean we let hippies lay-off 5000 Ice Road Truckers to save 3 polar bears.
This doesn't mean neo-cons are allowed to say "shitting in the drinking water doesn't hurt anyone."

Balance and reason can lead to good things.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:15 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:43 PM
Posts: 1323
Fribur wrote:
I prefer to compare it to Creationism. Despite overwhelming agreement in the scientific community, a small group of politically powerful people continue to lead the sheep of the country astray with claims that it is "controversial."
Interesting, but I would disagree.

I feel there is a lot more scientific dispute here than in the whole Creationism debate. That is, real scientific dispute. I also don't think this is quite like abortion. Both of these are religious and faith based.

Global warming is truly a simple question of science. There really are 2 questions:
1. Is the planet getting warmer? While this might SEEM easy to answer, it depends on how you define "warmer". Some people have claimed we are actually getting cooler.
2. IF the planet is getting warmer, is human activity contributing.

To rehash my previous post - so what?
I think people get a little too hung up on the debate instead of focusing on how we can have lesser impact on the planet.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:31 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
I'll not argue with you on that, Orme. But why do you have to wreck my obvious troll? :)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:23 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
Global warming is truly a simple question of science. There really are 2 questions:
1. Is the planet getting warmer? While this might SEEM easy to answer, it depends on how you define "warmer". Some people have claimed we are actually getting cooler.


You also have to say how long of a cycle are you looking at to get this information.

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:39 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
good to have you on board Devil.

:)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:46 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
3. We probably should do our best to conserve.

This doesn't mean we let hippies lay-off 5000 Ice Road Truckers to save 3 polar bears.
This doesn't mean neo-cons are allowed to say "shitting in the drinking water doesn't hurt anyone."

Balance and reason can lead to good things.


Agreed on all counts here. My post pretty much wasn't directed at you, but using your list to counter the knee-jerk shit I often see get tossed around. Not everyone with a tempered approach to a very real concern is a denier was my point really (not that you personally implied this).

Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
I prefer to compare it to Creationism. Despite overwhelming agreement in the scientific community, a small group of politically powerful people continue to lead the sheep of the country astray with claims that it is "controversial."


You believe in a fairy tale man in the sky. You have absolutely NO room to be calling anyone sheep. Sorry, your belief in God is no different from belief in Creationism. I also happen to agree with your statement however, for both extreme sides of the discussion.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:23 AM 
What? Another Expansion?!
What? Another Expansion?!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:04 PM
Posts: 93
Location: Arizona
EQ1: Tyral
WoW: Tyrak
I'd say belief in a God or gods is very different from believing in Creationism. Creationism has been disproved. The existence of higher beings has not. Nor can it be, at least not by any means we currently have available.

_________________
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:28 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
Tyral wrote:
I'd say belief in a God or gods is very different from believing in Creationism. Creationism has been disproved. The existence of higher beings has not. Nor can it be, at least not by any means we currently have available.


By your logic, creationism has an equal chance. Remember, these folks believe the "evidence" used in evolution (which doesn't even explain creation) was put there to test our faith. It's all equally worthless. One is no less so than the other.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:46 AM 
What? Another Expansion?!
What? Another Expansion?!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:04 PM
Posts: 93
Location: Arizona
EQ1: Tyral
WoW: Tyrak
Elessar wrote:
By your logic, creationism has an equal chance. Remember, these folks believe the "evidence" used in evolution (which doesn't even explain creation) was put there to test our faith. It's all equally worthless. One is no less so than the other.

I understand where you're coming from, but one doesn't have to believe in Creationism to believe in a higher power, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. Creationism generally describes a literal belief in the Bible's account of the world's creation.

However, belief in a deity doesn't preclude belief in basic scientific evidence, or trying to "explain away it." Creationists fail to realize that it isn't the belief that their god created the world, but rather that they must take as literal translation the account of the Bible. If they'd just accept that they are human, and therefore have an incomplete understanding of the "Word of God," they might be able to reconcile their beliefs with science.

_________________
Image


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:39 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Quote:
You believe in a fairy tale man in the sky. You have absolutely NO room to be calling anyone sheep. Sorry, your belief in God is no different from belief in Creationism. I also happen to agree with your statement however, for both extreme sides of the discussion.


Actually, I'm not sure if I do or not. Perhaps you've noticed the evolution of my thought over the last decade (and holy shit, it's been that long!) on these boards.

If I do, however, it isn't the same. There is no tome of scientific work anywhere that conclusively shows the existence of an alternative to God, as there is for Creationism and "omg there's no such thing as global warming."


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:54 AM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:43 PM
Posts: 1323
See Fribur, your troll still worked.

Also, when was Creationism disproved? I missed that memo. I guess if you say "Adam and Eve were created 4000 years ago", then that has probably been mostly debunked. I would think if you believe in God, by definition you believe in some variation of Creationism.

Either way, this is another example where people are more concerned with proving WHO is right rather than WHAT is right. Find the things you agree on and go from there.

We all agree that putting asbestos in your lungs is bad, right?
STEP ONE - DONE!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:36 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
I have a different thought on the whole Creationism vs. Evolution augment, I believe that it is both. I believe that their is a higher power that is controlling evolution. I can not believe that (insert your god here) just spit on a rock an out Adam popped. I also can't believe that an Omeba (sp?) just said hay, I should have some fins and then it saying hay you know we need feet. I think that the higher power made the Omeba evolve, in to what we are today.
So there I win :-)

:headbang:

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:45 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Devil wrote:
I have a different thought on the whole Creationism vs. Evolution augment, I believe that it is both. I believe that their is a higher power that is controlling evolution. I can not believe that (insert your god here) just spit on a rock an out Adam popped. I also can't believe that an Omeba (sp?) just said hay, I should have some fins and then it saying hay you know we need feet. I think that the higher power made the Omeba evolve, in to what we are today.
So there I win :-)

:headbang:


krby71 wrote:
good to have you on board Devil.

:)


Thanks

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:59 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
well I am a :newb: I meant to edit my post then I was like WTF, so I was going to delete my second post but I can see that Lou is a nazi hear with permissions too

Quote:
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:38 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
In this forum and in Rants and Raves, we've never been allowed to edit. That way, when people say stupid things, it remains for the world to see!

Quote:
Also, when was Creationism disproved? I missed that memo. I guess if you say "Adam and Eve were created 4000 years ago", then that has probably been mostly debunked. I would think if you believe in God, by definition you believe in some variation of Creationism.


Ahh, but you didn't read my post :p. I didn't say it had been disproved at all. I said there was a mountain of scientific evidence providing a credible alternative. That's not the same, good sir. If I may, I'm specifically talking about the "young earth Creationists," too.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:10 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Quote:
Now, giving you all those assumptions, I still stand by this:
Putting stuff in the air is bad.
Breathing dirty air is bad.
We should look for creative ways to keep the planet clean.


It's so simple and yet people will still fight tooth and nail against it. It's confusing.

Quote:
Also, when was Creationism disproved? I missed that memo.


Oh, not this again. >< No more of the, "Well, you didn't DISprove it!!" logic. =(

Hm, just occured to me that I agreed and disagreed with Orme in the same post!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:02 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
Elessar wrote:
I support research, and lots of it. Not only in what's happening (we have a good idea there), but what we can do to prevent it WITHOUT overreacting and causing more harm and fucking up policy in the process. For example, support carbon credits makes you a fucking idiot. Giving the WWF six billion dollars to "save polar bears" makes you a fucking idiot. A compassionate idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that supporting carbon credits makes you an idiot? Are you referring to the proposed carbon cap and trade market, or some other form of carbon credits?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:57 PM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
ANY form of carbon credits. If you need to ask, research just where (and how) that money goes, or is used. If you still think it's worthwhile, then perhaps Bob can also sell you some Enzyte.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:19 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
Hey, I agree that our political system is generally corrupt, and I'm not particularly interested in slogging through in the murky nebulous depths of the government's uses of tax revenues. As far as I'm concerned, though, the point isn't the tax revenues, or what is done with them - the point is to penalize CO2 emissions and encourage growth in renewables.

The current electricity market is exceedingly short-sighted, because it doesn't include externalities such as CO2 emissions in the cost of production. That means renewables can't compete with coal on a cents per kilowatt-hour basis. But a carbon cap-and-trade market would be a means of accounting for the environmental costs of electricity production, and so encourage the construction of renewable plants. Then economies of scale come into play, industry expertise grows, successful renewable energy companies put some revenue back into basic research, and the whole electricity production paradigm begins a gradual, positive shift.

As an aside, pollutant capping systems have been implemented in the past with great success; consider the SO2 cap-and-trade system, which has led to SO2 emissions decreasing by 33% since 1990. (Source: http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/cap-trade ... esults.pdf)

Do you have any suggestions for better way to encourage a shift of electricity production away from coal and toward more sustainable sources?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:40 PM 
Vanguard Fanboy!
Vanguard Fanboy!

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:07 PM
Posts: 2689
Quote:
Do you have any suggestions for better way to encourage a shift of electricity production away from coal and toward more sustainable sources?


Of course not, it's easier to say "lolHippies" and drive around, convinced that coal and other current energy sources will last forever (Forever being "Your lifetime") and pollution either doesn't exist or will never harm the planet (Again, never being, "Not in my lifetime") and lalalalala your way through. <3


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:11 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
I just LOL at the above posts, I love it when these discussions start talking about CO2 and Al Gore's carbon credits.

Before you start talking about how bad CO2 is you need to first decide if water vapor is taken into account or not. If you discount water vapor the percentage of CO2 that is "man-made" is about 3.2% to me that does not seam to be enough to warrant putting huge expenses on Power and other factories to limit their amount of CO2 output.


Source

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:20 AM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
They aren't Al Gore's carbon credits.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:39 AM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
Devil wrote:
I just LOL at the above posts, I love it when these discussions start talking about CO2 and Al Gore's carbon credits.

Before you start talking about how bad CO2 is you need to first decide if water vapor is taken into account or not. If you discount water vapor the percentage of CO2 that is "man-made" is about 3.2% to me that does not seam to be enough to warrant putting huge expenses on Power and other factories to limit their amount of CO2 output.


Source

Show me something recent from a peer-reviewed science journal that argues that
a) global warming is not happening, or
b) global warming is not anthropogenic,
and I might take you seriously. Keep citing random sites on the internet, and I will swiftly stop reading your posts.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:01 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:22 AM
Posts: 3609
Location: DFW
EQ1: Ghaani (retired)
WoW: Gabbath (retired)
Rift: Gabbath (retired)
SWOR: Gabbath/Gh'anni (retired)
noojens wrote:
As an aside, pollutant capping systems have been implemented in the past with great success; consider the SO2 cap-and-trade system, which has led to SO2 emissions decreasing by 33% since 1990. (Source: http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/cap-trade ... esults.pdf)


But we had proof that SO2 was detrimental to the atmosphere even in minuscule amounts


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:07 PM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 PM
Posts: 1147
noojens wrote:
Show me something recent from a peer-reviewed science journal that argues that
a) global warming is not happening, or
b) global warming is not anthropogenic,
and I might take you seriously. Keep citing random sites on the internet, and I will swiftly stop reading your posts.


a) Absolutely NO ONE is arguing this point. It is, over a short observation span, very much a fact.
b) Wrong answer. Show me where it is. I'm telling you that the verdict on human impact is NOT yet in (and it really isn't). I believe we have SOME impact on our environment, it would be silly to think we don't. My problem is as follows:

Our REACTION (read: carbon credits, other REVENUE-generating "solutions") is knee-jerk and is causing more harm than good. Remember, the economy and manufacturing solutions are slow to turn. Taxing them to oblivion does NOT help you in the long run. You move those factories to third world countries with FAR less restrictions on output.

We also need more research to figure out which areas need to be resolved (if at all) the most quickly. My point is this: Buying "Green" Cheetos at Whole Foods is NOT saving the environment. Buying carbon credits is only offsetting your own guilt. Want to save the environment? Encourage funded research, encourage discussion, and THEN, encourage action. Do I think spewing a metric fuckton of shit into the air is good and fine? No. Do I believe creating a mass market of bullshit out of the problem and calling it a solution fine as well? No. I'd like to keep the economy somewhat stable as we transition to something more safe...and scientifically sound.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:32 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
noojens wrote:
a) global warming is not happening, or
b) global warming is not anthropogenic,
and I might take you seriously.


I have never said that global warming is or is not happening; I am saying the same thing that Elasser said
Elasser wrote:
Our REACTION (read: carbon credits, other REVENUE-generating "solutions") is knee-jerk and is causing more harm than good. Remember, the economy and manufacturing solutions are slow to turn. Taxing them to oblivion does NOT help you in the long run. You move those factories to third world countries with FAR less restrictions on output.


noojens wrote:
Keep citing random sites on the internet, and I will swiftly stop reading your posts.

That site might be but the author is not random, I like that page because it lays things out matter of fact, if you would like you can read more about Gary Novak (Microbiologist) on Science is Broken. How I found this guy was from a site that you might consider non random. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport

But if you want to stop reading my posts that is your choice, To me it seams like that I put some information that was not corresponding with your train of thought or option, and you just trough out "well because its not from a web site that I look at I will not believe it"

fribur wrote:
They aren't Al Gore's carbon credits.

According to Jufi McLead of the Canada Free Press, Maurice Strong and Al Gore are the creators of the Carbon Credit.

Strong is on the board of directors of the Chicago Climate Exchange, Wikipedia-described as "the world's first and North America's only legally binding greenhouse gas emission registry reduction system for emission sources and offset projects in North America and Brazil."

Gore buys his carbon off-sets from himself--the Generation Investment Management LLP, "an independent, private, owner-managed partnership established in 2004 with offices in London and Washington, D.C." of which he is both chairman and founding partner.

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:35 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
Elessar wrote:
We also need more research to figure out which areas need to be resolved (if at all) the most quickly. My point is this: Buying "Green" Cheetos at Whole Foods is NOT saving the environment. Buying carbon credits is only offsetting your own guilt. Want to save the environment? Encourage funded research, encourage discussion, and THEN, encourage action. Do I think spewing a metric fuckton of shit into the air is good and fine? No. Do I believe creating a mass market of bullshit out of the problem and calling it a solution fine as well? No. I'd like to keep the economy somewhat stable as we transition to something more safe...and scientifically sound.

Oh, I see a disconnect. Apparently you're talking about some system of wherein individuals can buy and sell carbon credits? I'm talking about a cap-and-trade system between power plants, wherein the government places some cap on CO2 emissions per MW of power production, and plants that exceed that cap (e.g. coal) either need to make their processes more carbon-efficient, or purchase carbon credits from zero-emission sources like solar, wind, or nuclear.

And as an active researcher in energy and environment, I assure you that the consensus in the field is that the current warming trend is anthropogenic, and largely due to increased carbon dioxide emissions.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:47 PM 
What does this button do?
What does this button do?

Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:09 PM
Posts: 417
Location: Mpls, Mn
It says something about the worldwide environmental movement when the issue they are pushing the hardest is the equivalent of indulgences. This sort of puts them on par with the 16th century Catholic chuch, complete with a corrupt pope (Al Gore). I suppose we should expect the Inquisition next.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:49 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
And just to lend some credence to that assurance, here is the 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change:

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-repor ... r4_syr.pdf

See page 14 for pertinent discussion of the causes of climate change.

And here is a brief discussion of who the IPCC is, in case you haven't heard of them:

http://www.ipcc.ch/about/index.htm

The Cliff Notes version is that they're an international scientific body established by the UN Environmental Programme and the World Meteorological Organization to provide policymakers with "an objective source of information about the causes of climate change, its potential environmental and socio-economic consequences and the adaptation and mitigation options to respond to it."


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:46 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Thanks for the links noojens, The problem I have with the IPCC is that the governments funds them. Right now the world is big on global warming, and in order for these people to keep there jobs it behooves them to say "We're all gonna die!" so that they can keep there money coming in. If the IPCC came out when they were started and Humans have only had a .008% impact on the GHG in the last 100 years do you think they would still have jobs?

This is a letter that was written by 100 scientists that speak out against Alarmist Warming Theory.

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:23 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
Well, we can kick links at each other all night, and (um) I guess we'd both ... learn a lot? I did find your Senate minority report link interesting, though... I hadn't heard of the Republicans' IPCC rebuttal. We could argue about which source we trust more - an intergovernmental panel, or a partisan committee in the US Senate - but does anyone really care?

Two random points:

First, the IPCC study contains hard, reproducible data from cited sources, whereas the Senate minority report is a collection of interviews. So if I want to, I can sharpen a pencil (or fire up Matlab) and figure out exactly how each of the tables and figures in the IPCC report was produced. But the Senate report asks me to adopt their opinion based on faith ("because 400 scientists said so"). That's the cool thing about science - no one asks you to believe shit blindly, you can reproduce it.

And second, on a purely anecdotal note: of the several dozen energy and climate scientists from the country's top universities and national laboratories whose talks I've attended in the last year, every single one agreed that people are making this rock hotter. Hell, even the oil CEOs I've heard talk in the business school admit that climate change is a problem, and that people are causing it.

YMMV.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:43 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
noojens wrote:
Well, we can kick links at each other all night, and (um) I guess we'd both ... learn a lot? I did find your Senate minority report link interesting, though... I hadn't heard of the Republicans' IPCC rebuttal. We could argue about which source we trust more - an intergovernmental panel, or a partisan committee in the US Senate - but does anyone really care?

yes I two have learned a lot.
I also agree who the fuck really cares.

noojens wrote:
Two random points:

First, the IPCC study contains hard, reproducible data from cited sources, whereas the Senate minority report is a collection of interviews. So if I want to, I can sharpen a pencil (or fire up Matlab) and figure out exactly how each of the tables and figures in the IPCC report was produced. But the Senate report asks me to adopt their opinion based on faith ("because 400 scientists said so"). That's the cool thing about science - no one asks you to believe shit blindly, you can reproduce it.


I guess my stance on this is the "400 scientists" have said "we don't have enough data to solidly say one way or the other." True the IPCC report does have data that you can use to find out how they came up with there numbers, and also true that you can't argue the fact that based on those numbers there appears to be climate change.

noojens wrote:
And second, on a purely anecdotal note: of the several dozen energy and climate scientists from the country's top universities and national laboratories whose talks I've attended in the last year, every single one agreed that people are making this rock hotter. Hell, even the oil CEOs I've heard talk in the business school admit that climate change is a problem, and that people are causing it.

YMMV.

My only commit on this is that, This supports my first statement that I said "this is one of those agreements that you will not change anybodies mind on how they think about it, A intelligent person (or a person trying to make a point) can always find data and people to support there side of this argument."

Thank you for the conversation it has been very fun for me. :-D

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:48 PM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
Aye, cheers. :)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:22 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Quote:
According to Jufi McLead of the Canada Free Press, Maurice Strong and Al Gore are the creators of the Carbon Credit.


Yes, and according to Jufi, Gore is "preaching sermons with his new Gaia religion." You would help yourself more if you quoted a source that wasn't so obviously biased.

That said, there's a problem with the article you linked: it talks about Gore and his omg ebil carbon credits, going back as far as 1995 to mention some speech he made. Unfortunately, I remember discussing the idea of carbon credits in an Econ class in high school-- and I graduated from that high school in 1996. Is it really possible that Al Gore managed to infiltrate the minds of teachers everywhere that quickly? Hell, if I wasn't so lazy I could go find my old report cards and find out that perhaps I took that class in 95 or 94... what then?

If you want to pretend that Carbon Credits as an idea never existed before Gore, and that if it wasn't for that horrible Gore guy we'd all see the light, you go ahead. I'm going to need more than that, however.

and uhhh... hello! :)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:31 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Oh Fribur....

According to Wkipedia and United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change "Carbon Credits" come from the Kyoto Protocol. The Kyoto Protocol was adopted in Kyoto, Japan, on 11 December 1997 and entered into force on 16 February 2005.

While Al Gore might not have coined the term "Carbon Credits" I feel safe in stating that he brought it into most American's vocabulary, and "Carbon Credits" have also made him a rich man, since he is a co-founder of a company that pledged to "find, fund and accelerate green business, technology and policy solutions with the greatest potential to help solve the current climate crisis." Source

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:40 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Oh and the framing of the Kyoto Protocol started in 1992, so that would give it some time to get to your school teachers..

I also must state that I don't think that Al Gore created "Carbon Credits" I think he brought the term into the public eye

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:49 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Quote:
According to Jufi McLead of the Canada Free Press, Maurice Strong and Al Gore are the creators of the Carbon Credit.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:50 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:17 PM
Posts: 333
Location: in the cold
Fribur wrote:
Quote:
According to Jufi McLead of the Canada Free Press, Maurice Strong and Al Gore are the creators of the Carbon Credit.


Fribur, your post at 11:50PM last night, was very incomplete, as I can see there is two reasons for this.
1) You were still at school, so you had been there for about 17hr, and you fell asleep
2) You finally got internet at home, and you looked away and your cat jumped on the keyboard.

:P

_________________
Devil

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:50 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:43 PM
Posts: 1323
Bovinity Divinity wrote:
Quote:
Also, when was Creationism disproved? I missed that memo.


Oh, not this again. >< No more of the, "Well, you didn't DISprove it!!" logic. =(

Hm, just occured to me that I agreed and disagreed with Orme in the same post!
Hey, you're at least half right :)

Not to drudge through this again, but there is a huge difference between something being debatable and something being debunked.

You can say Creationism has never been proven.
But, you cannot say it has been disproven.
Big difference, but I a apologize in advance if this derails the thread.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:23 PM 
I schooled the old school.
I schooled the old school.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:39 PM
Posts: 5011
Quote:
Fribur, your post at 11:50PM last night, was very incomplete, as I can see there is two reasons for this.
1) You were still at school, so you had been there for about 17hr, and you fell asleep
2) You finally got internet at home, and you looked away and your cat jumped on the keyboard.


Neither-- here's option 3, and the real one!

3) I'm at home, using my wireless card to leech internet off the neighbors, and I've long since dumped my cats because I got tired of cleaning up after them.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:33 AM 
Camping Orc 1
Camping Orc 1
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:23 AM
Posts: 460
Location: Bedlam & Squalor
did you at least do the right thing, and feed them to Alf?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net
Karma functions powered by Karma MOD © 2007, 2009 m157y