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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:38 AM 
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I saw this on WSJ.com and wanted to know what you thought of it:
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There's a serious debate in this country as to how best to end the recession. The average recession will last five to 11 months; the average recovery will last six years. Recessions will end on their own if they're left alone. What can make the recession worse is the wrong kind of government intervention.

I believe the wrong kind is precisely what President Barack Obama has proposed. I don't believe his is a "stimulus plan" at all -- I don't think it stimulates anything but the Democratic Party. This "porkulus" bill is designed to repair the Democratic Party's power losses from the 1990s forward, and to cement the party's majority power for decades.

Keynesian economists believe government spending on "shovel-ready" infrastructure projects -- schools, roads, bridges -- is the best way to stimulate our staggering economy. Supply-side economists make an equally persuasive case that tax cuts are the surest and quickest way to create permanent jobs and cause an economy to rebound. That happened under JFK, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. We know that when tax rates are cut in a recession, it brings an economy back.

Recent polling indicates that the American people are in favor of both approaches.

Notwithstanding the media blitz in support of the Obama stimulus plan, most Americans, according to a new Rasmussen poll, are skeptical. Rasmussen finds that 59% fear that Congress and the president will increase government spending too much. Only 17% worry they will cut taxes too much. Since the American people are not certain that the Obama stimulus plan is the way to go, it seems to me there's an opportunity for genuine compromise. At the same time, we can garner evidence on how to deal with future recessions, so every occurrence will no longer become a matter of partisan debate.

Congress is currently haggling over how to spend $900 billion generated by American taxpayers in the private sector. (It's important to remember that it's the people's money, not Washington's.) In a Jan. 23 meeting between President Obama and Republican leaders, Rep. Eric Cantor (R., Va.) proposed a moderate tax cut plan. President Obama responded, "I won. I'm going to trump you on that."

Yes, elections have consequences. But where's the bipartisanship, Mr. Obama? This does not have to be a divisive issue. My proposal is a genuine compromise.

Fifty-three percent of American voters voted for Barack Obama; 46% voted for John McCain, and 1% voted for wackos. Give that 1% to President Obama. Let's say the vote was 54% to 46%. As a way to bring the country together and at the same time determine the most effective way to deal with recessions, under the {this} Stimulus Plan of 2009: 54% of the $900 billion -- $486 billion -- will be spent on infrastructure and pork as defined by Mr. Obama and the Democrats; 46% -- $414 billion -- will be directed toward tax cuts, as determined by me.

Then we compare. We see which stimulus actually works. This is bipartisanship! It would satisfy the American people's wishes, as polls currently note; and it would also serve as a measurable test as to which approach best stimulates job growth.

I say, cut the U.S. corporate tax rate -- at 35%, among the highest of all industrialized nations -- in half. Suspend the capital gains tax for a year to incentivize new investment, after which it would be reimposed at 10%. Then get out of the way! Once Wall Street starts ticking up 500 points a day, the rest of the private sector will follow. There's no reason to tell the American people their future is bleak. There's no reason, as the administration is doing, to depress their hopes. There's no reason to insist that recovery can't happen quickly, because it can.

In this new era of responsibility, let's use both Keynesians and supply-siders to responsibly determine which theory best stimulates our economy -- and if elements of both work, so much the better. The American people are made up of Republicans, Democrats, independents and moderates, but our economy doesn't know the difference. This is about jobs now.

The economic crisis is an opportunity to unify people, if we set aside the politics. The leader of the Democrats and the leader of the Republicans can get it done. This will have the overwhelming support of the American people. Let's stop the acrimony. Let's start solving our problems, together. Why wait one more day?


I like the plan. Too bad we'd never see anything like this out of Congress.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:48 AM 
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Supply-side economists make an equally persuasive case that tax cuts are the surest and quickest way to create permanent jobs and cause an economy to rebound. That happened under JFK, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. We know that when tax rates are cut in a recession, it brings an economy back.


This part was hilarious.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:30 AM 
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I don't believe either side to be correct on this issue. Most recoveries from recessions/depressions were triggered by a hugely popular innovation.

I also don't think that using the stimulus package as some kind of huge Keynesian vs. supply-siders experiment would prove a damn thing. Both plans might work or only one or some outside factor and we would never be able to adequately determine which helped.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:39 AM 
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But tax rebates for illegal immigrants, big bucks to ACORN, and birth-control are wonderful stimulus items.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:54 AM 
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The bill is full of unnecessary spending.

It's a big bill with no big picture items. It won't change anything fundamentally. It will incrementally move us closer to universal health care, but it won't get us there. It will strip all money out of the budget to do anything big in scope, and I'm incredibly skeptical that it will do anything to fix the economy. It also was done along extremely partisan lines and it's just flat out fucking depressing.

But special interests will be very happy. And state governments can now advance all of their pet projects. /boggle

What a big bucket of fail about to be thrown in our faces.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:40 PM 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:10 PM 
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I don't know if you know this or not but that is a plan that was laid out buy Glenn Beck, Yeah we would never see anything like this. for two reasons 1st - It would make since 2nd - It would open the eyes of more of the pubic on how government waists money

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:20 PM 
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Good ole USA!


What I can't quite fathom, and maybe I'm just naive, is that as we go further and further down....the folks in charge are still out to do whats best for themselves or their lobbyists and sneak in anything they can.

Those bank folks posting massive losses while handing out billions in bonuses or the silly ass additions in the stimulus packages are a good example.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:37 PM 
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But tax rebates for illegal immigrants, big bucks to ACORN, and birth-control are wonderful stimulus items.


I could not agree more =)

This helps the significantly poorer illegals afford buying things to help with some much-needed stimulation in the retail sector, helps a rather large organization(that had a very small portion of people who decided to take advantage of their status and create false registrations) that provides health care and housing to lower-income families, and also provides more methods for birth control so we don't create even MORE unwanted babies - you know, those that actually COST MONEY to care for?

Seems like a win/win from the way you put it there! Could not have said it better myself.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:47 PM 
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Right.

Giving illegals money in their pockets, hell, they're gonna go buy TVs and automobiles, right? I guess they'll stop sending the money back to Mexico like so many do now, right, Venen?

Reducing unwanted pregnancies, that's gonna do WONDERS for the economy right now.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:52 PM 
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Absolutely. As it is right now they're scraping by and sending what they can to their relatives in Mexico. Now that they're becoming a little more accepted in society and more or less "moving in", it can be expected that if you give them a little more they'll find a way to spend for themselves here as well given that they might have enough to send to their families.

What's there to cry about?

Glad we can at least agree on the fact that babies cost money.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:28 AM 
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So much hyperbole, so few smelling salts...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:31 AM 
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Only ten per cent of the “stimulus” to be spent on 2009.

Close to half goes to entities that sponsor or employ or both members of the Service Employees International Union, federal, state, and municipal employee unions, or other Democrat-controlled unions.

This bill is sent to Congress after Obama has been in office for seven days. It is 680 pages long. According to my calculations, not one member of Congress read the entire bill before this vote. Obviously, it would have been impossible, given his schedule, for President Obama to have read the entire bill.

For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in the United States roughly $75,000.

We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly $300,000.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:26 AM 
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What's the point of this?

Quote:
For the amount spent we could have given every unemployed person in the United States roughly $75,000.

We could give every person who had lost a job and is now passing through long-term unemployment of six months or longer roughly $300,000.


There's NO WAY we could do something like that. "Oh, you work at McDonalds 20 hours a week? Sorry, no $75,000 for you!" There would be a revolution.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:44 AM 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:54 AM 
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joxur wrote:
Right.

Giving illegals money in their pockets, hell, they're gonna go buy TVs and automobiles, right? I guess they'll stop sending the money back to Mexico like so many do now, right, Venen?

Wait- we still have illegal immigrants in this country? Don't they realize that the economy is better in Mexico than it is here? ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:53 AM 
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Hang on a minute, krby.

Let me re-state the plan in brief:

1) Cut taxes, decreasing government revenue.

2) Increase government expenditures.

That about sums it up, right?

That's a little too similar to Bush's economic policies, imo.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:54 AM 
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How about exactly like Bush's policies, which worked out so very splendidly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:46 PM 
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As a side note, I would think that after eight years of "abstinence only" horseshit, some actual education and funding on preventing unwanted pregnancy would be a good thing economically. In general, waiting until one's mid-to-late 20s has a positive impact on one's economic future, both male and female. College is a luxury most teen parents can't afford. Never mind the correllations between access to birth control and lower abortion rates.

Regardless, the Dems removed those bits from the bill to appease Republicans. None of whom ended up voting for the bill anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:55 PM 
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bearne wrote:
Regardless, the Dems removed those bits from the bill to appease Republicans. None of whom ended up voting for the bill anyway.


I've read reports stating this will be done separate from the stimulus package.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:03 AM 
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The Leadership Conference on Civil Rights (”LCCR”) is a far left interest group.

The group opposed conservative judges. The group agitates for card check. The group is in favor of the Fairness Doctrine. It is chiefly an agitator for affirmative action programs and tries to pressure banks into giving high risk loans like those that caused the housing crisis. If you oppose them, they label you a racist.

LCCR operates like ACORN. And the Senate Democrats are about to give the $90 million of your money.

Under the cover of the digital television conversion delay, the Senate Democrats want to give the LCCR $90 million.

On page 38 of the Senate version of the stimulus, under the section “Digital-to-Analog Converter Program”, the Senate carves out “$90,000,000.00 . . . for education and out-reach, including grants to organizations for programs to educate vulnerable populations, including senior citizens, minority communities, people with disabilities, low-income individuals, and people living in rural areas, about the transition.”

Sounds innocuous. Here’s the catch:

The program is managed by the Department of Commerce. And the Department of Commerce gave access to the DTV education money to only two groups exclusively: the National Association of Area Agencies on Aging (N4A) and the LCCR’s Education Fund.: the National Association of Area Agencies on Aging (N4A) and the LCCR’s Education Fund.

Here’s where it gets funny. Each group is now only getting about $2 million.

The Senate believes it needs to give $90 million more — and only these organizations will be able to get their hands on the money. Only these two groups — one group that helps senior citizens and one group whose members were Democrat foot soldiers in 2008 and, with the “administrative costs” they’ll be able to take in overhead, will be well funded for coming elections.
Even if legitimate, and it's not - 90 million for digital TV conversion? Venen, I'm breathlessly awaiting your reasoning for how that helps the economy :)

The stimulus is one big fat payoff to all the groups that helped get Obama elected. ACORN, LCCR, etc. Fun times.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:48 PM 
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If it passes Congress and makes it to Obama he would make me a huge fan if he vetoed it and told them to remove all the pork and pass it again. IMO standing up to the Dems in congress who think they can do what they want carte blanche would be good from a leadership stance also. Bringing your allies in line can be difficult. I don't see that there is a huge rush to get it through since most of the spending doesn't happen this year anyhow.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:02 PM 
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Even if legitimate, and it's not - 90 million for digital TV conversion? Venen, I'm breathlessly awaiting your reasoning for how that helps the economy


Certainly, I'll be glad to accomodate you once again with the obvious.

My understanding is that most of the motivation behind the switch is to free up some of the transmission spectrum(for both TV and radio broadcasts). By doing that, you can get more quality signals to the customers. It also frees or unties the hands of broadcasters to a degree, which may very well cut costs and (gasp) end up for allowing them to hire more people with that extra money.

In general, it's something that I think is somewhat inevitable if we want to move on. Countless other countries have converted already, so we're already a bit behind on this.

Not to mention the fact that improving the general quality of life of people can certainly stimulate the economy. That's not to say getting higher quality TV is going to magically make everyone productive, but a cumulative effect of many sources is certainly possible. It could more or less be considered a part of our infrastructure that needed some repairing.

In addition, I think freeing up the spectrum could allow for more room for radio, which in turn also means more potential for new businesses and new jobs popping up.

Any other blind, bandwagoning criticisms?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:09 PM 
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This could be a fun game.. maybe we could do a scheduled webcast. Kind of like AskaNinja, but with you, instead of the ninja. I honestly think you're capable of explaining any spending as a way to stimulate the economy. Quick, your thoughts on the effect of forming a government-sponsored underwater basketweaving department...?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:20 AM 
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Clearer commercials out in the rural areas will make people want to buy more stuff.


Fuzzy pizza? No thanks.... HiDef Pizza? YES PLEASE!!!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:48 AM 
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Heh, unfortunately(or fortunately..) I wouldn't be surprised in the least. Advertisers don't really go full force on all manner of whacky and gimmicky commercials just because its fun... it actually, you know, sells stuff =) If gimmicks like we see in commercials today can actually sell something, is it such a far reach that something as simple as having commercials in hi-def would have a higher rate of garnering sales?

It's usually the subconscious things that catch our eyes. Putting out commercials in hi-def not only puts it in our face in high quality, it also has the ability to better accentuate those things that grab hold of our subconscious mind.

Quote:
This could be a fun game.. maybe we could do a scheduled webcast. Kind of like AskaNinja, but with you, instead of the ninja. I honestly think you're capable of explaining any spending as a way to stimulate the economy. Quick, your thoughts on the effect of forming a government-sponsored underwater basketweaving department...?


Sounds interesting! Does it also have the 3-4 logical reasons I listed in my previous post that it would have a potential to create jobs?

More importantly, would it be a tiny fraction of what is being spent on the stimulus that you just found out about on a conservative blog, and reposted without any real addition of your own for our infinite pleasure because you're too much of a bonehead to think for yourself?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:46 AM 
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The concerns I've raised revolve around:

- Pandering to special interests that helped Obama win the election
- Benefits delayed for years and likely will have no effect in the short-term
- Bloated programs that don't directly address the problems that got us here
- A bill that has so much of the Dem policy agenda, guised under a "stimulus" but won't achieve any real substantive change in health care, dependency on foreign oil, etc.
- Where's the money coming from? Did you know that we have this little problem called social security that we don't have the money for?

Did you know that there is nothing in the bill that calls for specific relief for foreclosed homeowners? There is an auction in Atlanta today of almost 10,000 foreclosed homes. The dems did not put it in the bill because they did not think the GOP would go for it. Well guess what? The GOP won't vote for this steaming pile of shit, and the Dems have the votes, so it's time to cut the fat and put items in that actually address the problems in our economy.

Only $11 billion goes to housing assistance.
Only $27 billion goes to unemployment benefits.
(http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?hea ... 5976b88449)

Here's some more conservative blogger quotes for you. Facts suck:

Quote:
Only $4 billion of the $30 billion allocation for highway improvements and $3 billion of the $18 billion for renewable energy would be spent by 2011. Meanwhile, the measure provides $16 billion in grants for college students; $6 billion for colleges and universities; $4 billion for local law enforcement; $3 billion for a “prevention and wellness fund”; $2.1 billion for Head Start; $1 billion for community development block grants; $726 million for after-school snacks; $650 million in subsidies to help people buy digital televisions; $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts. These provisions have almost nothing to do with short-term economic stimulus.

(http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/ ... ?uniontrib)

If that's too conservative for you, go check out the Congressional Budget Office.

You know the real reason that Obama wants conservatives to vote for it, right? You might wonder: Why does he want their support when he has the votes, and, as he says, we're in such dire straits? This is for free, Venen: It's because everyone knows this stimulus will be looked at years from now as a complete unmitigated disaster, and they want to make sure the GOP can't use their lack of support as political leverage to say "see, we told you so".


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:54 AM 
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Those all sound like great ways to stimulate the economy to me /shrug. It's the very definition of "government spending." Just about everything on that list of expenditures sound like good things I would support, anyway, regardless of the economy.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:07 AM 
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Except that they are just printing the money for this spending. Should the economy rebound the inflation monster will smack it back down.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:38 AM 
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Whoops, posted this on the wrong thread.

Quote:
• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint. (lol)

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:42 PM 
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And how do all of those things *not* stimulate the economy? Someone has to build the buildings, manufacture the computers and vehicles, design and implement the public works projects, ship all of the various goods, work on the film production, staff the day cares centers, run the universities, etc.

If those kinds of activities - putting Americans to work across a broad range of sectors and geographic locations - *isn't* economic stimulus, then what exactly is? Isn't it better to put people to work than to pay them not to work? Why would it be better to subsidize someone's mortgage and pay them unemployment when you could use the same money to give them a jump start on a new career?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:47 PM 
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Reducing the risk of lead-based paint?
New furniture in the Dept of Homeland Security?
850 million for Amtrak?
2 billion for a coal plant that was shut down for being inefficient?

How about we just put the money in a barrel and set it on fire, instead?

Where's the money coming from, Bearne?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:17 PM 
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Ah, I see. So of the 70 or so projects listed, the entire thing is ZOMGTerrible because you've decided four of them could be wasteful? I'm not sure how exaclty one can determine that based on an unsourced list of titles that don't include details.

"$2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient."

According to who? What are the details behind the plant? Was it shut down because scientists / urban planners / energy experts decided it wasn't worth the investment? Or because some Bush lackey got a call from the local coal plant owner and Bush donor saying it would hurt his business?

The DHS furniture: I would assume that it is directly related to the new DHS building listed immediately above it. Wouldn't it be more wasteful to build a new building and render it unusable due to lack of furnishing?

Lead based paint? Sounds a little silly, but, again, what are the details? Same with Amtrak.

Re: where is the money coming from? The same place the TARP money is coming from. The same place the Iraq and Afganistan funds come from. Nowhere. It doesn't exist until the Treasury creates it out of thin air by issuing debt. That's how Keynsian crap works and always has. The hope of Keynsian theory is that the growth stimulated outpaces the inflationary risk of an increased money supply. That, frankly, is nothing new - it is how federal spending has worked for the last 80 years. It carries risk (and risk I'm not entirely comfortable with) and always has. Generally, it has paid off.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:38 PM 
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Those are all good questions, and questions I have, as well. But given that Congress has had no time to even read the bill, do you really think it's a good idea to spend more money on these programs when we're knee-deep in debt, have a looming social security crisis and a tanking economy? Sight unseen?

We can debate the merits of how any of the programs that you seem to think will generate jobs will actually do so. That's a worthwhile argument, but I'm afraid you guys aren't participating honestly.. More on that after this.

Rather, I'll give you Obama's words from January:

Quote:
Obama also promised a more intensive effort to weed inefficient and bloated programs out of the federal budget in the short run, creating a White House position to "scour this budget, line by line, eliminating what we don't need, or what doesn't work, and improving the things that do."

"If we do nothing," Obama said, "then we will continue to see red ink as far as the eye can see."


With that out of the way, let's discuss this notion of yours that building new headquarters for the CDC, Homeland Security, reduction of STDs and others programs will generate jobs. Remember, to participate honestly in this discussion, you have to frame it as a stimulus - because that is how Obama is selling it. The merits of a program to cut down on STDs is irrelevant because that's not why we're trying to pass this bill. We're trying to pass a bill that will help our economy. Since you're taking a huge leap in thinking these programs will work to stimulate the economy, let me take what I think is a much more logical leap.

The construction companies that will be building those will likely NOT be hiring new people to do the work. Their suppliers will likely NOT be hiring people to produce the parts and materials. The furniture company will likely NOT be hiring more people to produce the additional furniture.

Why? Given the tanking economy and how poorly businesses are doing, don't you think it's entirely more likely that that construction company will be using labor that has been sitting idle because of decreased demand, that the parts and materials vendors will be using unsold inventory, and that the furniture company will be selling unsold inventory, as well? What company will hire a bunch of new people and roll out items on the assembly line when they've already got a shit ton of inventory sitting in warehouses?

Want to test my theory? Go to a new car lot and tell the dealer you want to order a custom vehicle, when he has 50 unsold cars sitting on the lot. Good luck with that.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:43 PM 
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Slight derail, but I see this kind of waste every day so......

$248 million in furniture? That is half the cost of the structure, when there is a depot sitting at Ft. Belvior filled with unused office furnishings, year old computers, and cubicle parts. It's almost criminally wasteful the things they buy to fill offices. I have a hardwood enclosure for my f'ing trash can no less.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:53 PM 
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My understanding of the construction business is that it is primarily contract-oriented from a hiring perspective. In other words, only the project manager and the back office staff are full-time permanent, and everyone else gets hired on a per job basis, specifically to keep from having to pay idle employees. Regarding things like new furniture or new manufactured goods, the existing idle inventory is fairly unlikely to meet whatever specs the government contract will require, and new goods meeting the specs will need to be generated.

Even if existing goods do meet spec, if the company gets to keep from going bankrupt and laying off everyone because it can get rid of enough idle inventory, doesn't that serve a similar purpose to creating a new job? I've lived in a number of small New England towns, and one or two employers tend to be the lifeblood. If "the plant" closes, the entire town or possibly region suffers beyond the initial job losses, as restaurants, retailers, etc. lose business as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:03 PM 
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Sarissa, the omnibus bill, as far as I can tell, is around $900 billion. If a Congressperson gets their rocks off killing off a DHS building that removes 0.5% of the entire bill, I have no problem with that at all.

Frankly, I do think the entire package is fairly silly. I'd prefer to have some smaller targetted bills considered individually. And I'd prefer for the Dems to be using their current political capital on public works / infrastructure projects and healthcare reform. I think funding bridges, dams, sewer system repairs, etc. should be our focus, especially since a lot of those things were build in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:04 PM 
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Not even passed, and we're already lowering our expectations from economic recovery to trying to get people to KEEP jobs. I thought it was about pulling the US out of this mess. heh

Question, though: We do need to help the people that have already lost their jobs, right? If so, and infrastructure and construction accounts for a huge amount of new jobs -- where are the training programs to teach white collar technology guys who can't get a job how to build a house, road or something else? We've got money in there for Amtrak, surely we can put something to help teach Miles the out-of-shape cubicle nerd how to pick up a hammer, right?

Quote:
I've lived in a number of small New England towns, and one or two employers tend to be the lifeblood. If "the plant" closes, the entire town or possibly region suffers beyond the initial job losses, as restaurants, retailers, etc. lose business as well.


Great point. I wonder who will get the contract to supply the furniture for that new HQ. You know, the federal government has a great track record with bids. heh.

This is good, though. I've got a number of you on record that these programs are legitimate job-producing endeavors, whereas I am on record that this is political backscratching. Mission accomplished. Let me bookmark this thread for later, I'm sure it will come in handy. I wonder if you can ever agree that anything in a bill is pork. If this stuff isn't, what is?

Sadly, I never saw any of you advocate for the bridge to nowhere. Same thing, right?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:15 PM 
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I expect them to haggle over 0.5% and eaches. It's supposed to be their job to steward our tax dollars, not spend them on exorbitant furniture they already have within spitting distance to the site of their new building. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:01 PM 
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"Not even passed, and we're already lowering our expectations from economic recovery to trying to get people to KEEP jobs. I thought it was about pulling the US out of this mess. heh."

Oh, please. I was specifically responding to a question/issue you raised. At least try to pretend to discuss in good faith.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:08 PM 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:01 PM 
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Sarissa, I think that what we're witnessing is the political equivalent of a geek who finally manages to land his first girlfriend and goes crazy engaging in embarassing PDAs. The Dems are giddy with anticipation after years of being thwarted by Republicans and tossing in everything they can think of. Most of them have never been in a Dem majority with a Dem President.

I guess I consider it embarassing buy inevitible. Unfortunately, the new and improved White Southerner and Rich People Party has alienated so much of Main Street that they can't put up a really effective opposition. There's probably a shitload of crap that could/should be stripped out of the bill. But who is going to do it?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:01 PM 
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Sarissa, I think that what we're witnessing is the political equivalent of a geek who finally manages to land his first girlfriend and goes crazy engaging in embarassing PDAs. The Dems are giddy with anticipation after years of being thwarted by Republicans and tossing in everything they can think of. Most of them have never been in a Dem majority with a Dem President.

I guess as a Democrat, I consider it embarassing but inevitible. Unfortunately, the new and improved White Southerner and Rich People Party has alienated so much of Main Street that they can't put up a really effective opposition. There's probably a shitload of crap that could/should be stripped out of the bill. But who is going to do it?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:48 PM 
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bearne wrote:
White Southerner and Rich People Party


"party of inclusion"

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:02 AM 
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bearne wrote:
Sarissa, I think that what we're witnessing is the political equivalent of a geek who finally manages to land his first girlfriend and goes crazy engaging in embarassing PDAs. The Dems are giddy with anticipation after years of being thwarted by Republicans and tossing in everything they can think of. Most of them have never been in a Dem majority with a Dem President.

I guess as a Democrat, I consider it embarassing but inevitible. Unfortunately, the new and improved White Southerner and Rich People Party has alienated so much of Main Street that they can't put up a really effective opposition. There's probably a shitload of crap that could/should be stripped out of the bill. But who is going to do it?


Everybody *should* be doing it. This attitude of "ZOMGZ I'm a Democrat & don't want to rock the boat" is what got us into this mess. For years we have swung back & forth between giving out goodies to Republican supporters and Democratic supporters depending on who is in power. At some point one of the parties needs to grow up & govern. Obama promised that kind of change. It is sad that he is still kowtowing to Pelosi.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that Speaker of the House is a position too powerful to be decided in the House. Maybe every Speaker should be subject to a vote of confidence/no confidence nationally every 6 months. I doubt Pelosi would have kept the position beyond the first year.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:05 AM 
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The Democratic party as a whole are on trial here (and as a lifelong Democrat leaning who has been leaning towards reregistering as an Independent) they are failing. I wonder if they realize it?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:25 AM 
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Quote:
Unfortunately, the new and improved White Southerner and Rich People Party has alienated so much of Main Street that they can't put up a really effective opposition.
You inject race into a lot of threads where it's never an issue. What's up with that, Bearne?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:28 AM 
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Until a stimulus bill shows up on his desk, he can only influence legislation, not write it or push it through committee. One of the main problems for me with the Bush years was the recast of the Executive branch as the primary branch of government, and the legislative as superfluous, in violation of both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution. Frankly, it is refreshing to have a President who seems interested is restoring the balance of powers.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:47 AM 
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Maybe this will help:

Quote:
Much of the $550 billion in spending is divided among these areas: $142 billion for education, $111 billion for health care, $90 billion for infrastructure, $72 billion for aid and benefits, $54 billion for energy, $16 billion for science and technology, and $13 billion for housing.
Hmm.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:56 AM 
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Did you even watch the Republican National Convention? Or look at where the Rep party won and lost in '08? Did you note how many people of *any* color other than white were at the Convention? Or how many Hispanics and African-Americans voted for McCain?

There isn't a single Republican in the House of Representatives from New England. The delegations from the West Coast and the Midwest shrunk. The GOP elected officials of 2009 are predominantly white, and predominantly southern, mountain west, and plains states. How is it "injecting race" to state the obvious?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:08 AM 
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Quote:
There isn't a single Republican in the House of Representatives from New England. The delegations from the West Coast and the Midwest shrunk. The GOP elected officials of 2009 are predominantly white, and predominantly southern, mountain west, and plains states. How is it "injecting race" to state the obvious?
Because you're obsessed with race. Shall I dig up the veiled insinuations that I'm racist for supporting McCain?

They did just vote for a black man to head the GOP, you know. You're all for hope and change and bi-partisanship, unless that involves moving past your petty pre-conceived generalizations, right?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:19 AM 
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It's pretty sad that want to talk about the impact of race rather than shoving it under the carpet is considered an "obsession." Then again, it is entirely unsurprising given the treatment Surcam's been subjected to by the Lanys Board Usual Suspects over the years whenever he's tried to open up discussions about racial topics.

I'd love to see what you consider "veiled insinuations." Should make for some fun lunchtime reading.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:32 AM 
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You mean to tell me that your characterization of the republican party as the party of white southerners - in a thread about the economy - was an honest attempt to start a debate?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:53 AM 
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The current demographic and representational state of the GOP vis a vis the logical end result of three decades of The Southern Strategy is directly cogent to a discussion of why it is going to find itself unable to sufficiently influence legislation over the next two years. I have no idea where you got the concept that I was looking to debate race. There's nothing to debate here. The party has wrought what is has wrought by its own actions in every election since 1968.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:56 AM 
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Wait, what?

Quote:
It's pretty sad that want to talk about the impact of race rather than shoving it under the carpet is considered an "obsession."


Quote:
I have no idea where you got the concept that I was looking to debate race.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:03 AM 
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IMHO "talk about" and "debate" are entirely different things. "Talk about" - discusssion, dialogue, trying to come to an understanding. "Debate" - an adversarial process about who can make a more persuasive argument, regardless of right versus wrong.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:06 AM 
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Out of curiosity, is today going to be one of those days where you engage in a pattern of repeatedly handpicking a single clause only tangentally related to someone else's point and then try to trick them into defending it out of context, rather than ever answering a direct question? If it is, can we just skip to the part where you say "Ah hah! Gotcha!" and declare yourself the winner in your own mind? I have actual work to do.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:08 AM 
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You must mean like how you ignored my point about the GOP electing Michael Steele to head the party.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:11 AM 
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Come on, statements like "the new and improved White Southerner and Rich People Party" are designed to raise hackles.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:16 AM 
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I guess J.C. Watts wasn't available this decade.

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