The problem with your points and Bearne's is that.. you're not actually making points.

You say that there are disproportionate levels of blacks under the poverty level, in jail and receiving poor education. To make what point? All you've done is state facts.

Sweet! Is that a nickname? Like, Bearne "Sanctimony" Frosthammer? Or a Title? Like "Bearne the Sanctimonious"? Was there a particular acheivement I needed to complete? Or is it level based?

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Hope is the new black.

I think it works better as the first part of a two-part Roman name.

And is this an error in assuming causality? People just assume that if someone gets poor that they're forced into crime. Or maybe its that the persona of someone who's lazy and mooching off the system is the same that is predisposed to crime.

I spent a lot of my life poor. I was even quasi-homeless for a good span (Just sleeping in whoever's house my mom could weasel her way into) but oddly enough I didn't feel the need to shoot someone for a pair of shoes.

I wonder what Fribur, Bearne and Venen have to say about the disproportionate number of black women who attend college compared to, say, black men...?

When we start to see equal research being done on Crime Statistics by Socio-economic Status as we see on Crime Statistics by Race we will know that we have moved largely beyond racism in this country.
Yes, yes, I know that there are proportionally more minorities who are in poverty but too often the data is looked at by race instead of by Socio-economic status. Here is an interesting study that includes population density, educational level, unemployment, family size, but NOT race as study factors. (Although I feel a need to note that crime levels were the geographic focus and not where the perpetrators lived, a mistake in my mind) More research of this type is important to understanding why there are more minorities in prisons. As long as people look at the data based on race there is no real response the government can attempt. I would love to see a day where instead of "Black Male=Criminal" being the stereotype that "Poor Male=Criminal" or "Uneducated Male=Criminal" is the stereotype. That would be more indicative of ways to alleviate crime.

http://gis.esri.com/library/userconf/pr ... 8/p508.htm

I'm not one of those three but I would say that it comes down to who each sex sees as their role models. Over and over again studies have shown a direct correlation between young females who participate in sports and lower crime rates, higher college attendance and lower teen pregnancy rates. I have never seen a study showing a similar correlation for males. This may begin changing as more female sports stars are caught in criminal behavior like Marion Jones, but I hope not. It also may be due to the lesser number of female professional sports so females see sports as a way to an education still as opposed to males seeing college sports as simply a stepping stone to a professional sport career. Black females are also much more likely to graduate from high school, so that feeds into the data on college attendance.

Damn forgot this:

Black families are much more matriarchal than nonblack families, and this plays into maturity, graduation rates, college attandance numbers.

Oh believe me Mr. Khan, I absolutely do. And have for a long time


I absolutely agree, and this is one of the many reasons why MLK Jr.'s murder was such a travesty. This is exactly where he was taking us.

I actually completely agree that we need to be focused on the socio-economic status over race.

But when we're discussing race and whether or not it is still a factor, the question has to be asked-- why are blacks dissproportionately poor?

And don't tell me it's because of thier "thug culture." There are thousands of people, black and even more white, who particpate in that culture, and don't end up in prison.

There isn't an easy, black and white answer to the question, folks.

I think there IS an easy black & white answer to your question, Fribur. Inheritance Laws. You can look at other populations that came to this country with nothing and met resentment and racism and see similar characteristics, although not to the same degree. For example, every see a INNA sign in a museum? It stands for Irish Need Not Apply and was very common during the Irish Potatoe Famine and the 'forced' immigrations. Before I get jumped on I'm NOT saying the Irish were as severely discriminated against, just that the two populations share some similarities and have had some of the same difficulties and I can think of no other even slightly similar circumstances to use as a contrast so we can move away from race-based discussions and on to socio-economic ones.

Participate yes, live and die for it, no.

As far as the Proportional rates for poverty, 12.6% of whites are at or blow the poverty level and have a population of 216Million, 24% black with 40million. Where are the criminals in the white population, surely with an extra 15 million people in poverty like whites are they should be comiting 2.5x the amount of crimes? (2006 numbers)

Please explain that away with socio-economic babble?

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Clearly it's because they're black Khan. Is that your point?

"Socio-economic babble" includes more than just poverty rates. It includes education levels, ratios of single-parent families, urban/rural, and other factors.

None of you are smart enough to be discussing this, so why bother?

And yet you jump in here. How appropriate.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Everyone is smart enough on the internets.

The size of ones nose must be the determining factor in his household.

All of which can be somewhat attributed to culture. "Fuck school, i'm a gangstah", refering to women as bitches and hoes and hangin out in the 'hood'.

I believe MLK, if he were alive, would be the biggest opponent to this "culture". And it not just the hip-hop crap, it goes back nearly 30 years to the early 80's. Kids have always worn weird shit but this mental attitude goes a lot deeper than just clothes. It is the craving of these kids to appear to be a bad ass no matter what.

A lot of you are fuck you khan, yadda yadda,thats fine. But when I see murders, rapes and even kids at school buss stops, grade school kids mind you, getting pistol whipped for their lunch money by wanna-be thugs not a half mile down the road from my house it fucking infuriates me. When I watch the local news at night and see a woman was car jacked, raped repeatedly and forced to drive to multiple ATMs and get money for the punks, it makes my blood boil. And when they show pictures or give a description of the perps it is what seems to be 99% of the time black males between the age of 18 and 29 and I say it fucking figures. Just yesterday a teenage black girl has a baby and puts it in a shoe box and drops it off on someones porch in the freezing cold. Where the fuck are the parents of this girl who can carry to term a baby and no one even notice.

All of this worries me greatly.

My daughter goes to a public school because it offers her the best opportunities at the grade school level to do what she loves, play the Violin. She wants to go to North Central for High School because they have the best orchestra in the state and an incredible director. Last night she comes home in tears after basketball practie and having been harassed all day long by the wanna be gangstah black girls. In a fountain of tears she asks if she can go back to parochial school and go to the school my son goes to for High School. She wants to give up her dreams all because these fucking kids with no home life, no discipline and no desire for anything other than the latest tennis shoes, puff daddy jackets and embroidered jeans can't mind their own business. Does she ever say that white kids harrass her, Hispanic kids? No, always the punk ass black kids.

As a parent you try to console your child, tell them that everything will work out and not to give up. "When they start their shit, just smile at them and walk away". When inside you want to tell your kid, "Don't worry about it, 70% will either be pregnant or drop out of school by the time you are in the 11th grade."

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Khan, I'm sorry your daughter is going through that. It sucks. Being a parent just sucks alot when your child is being hurt.

And I really don't disagree with you about the whole 'gangsta' culture. It needs to be destroyed from within. I think, though, that culture is a whole different ballgame than race.

Anecdotally, I grew up in a rural, largely white area. The ONLY blacks were a single family of lawyers with children and one adopted male who was an outstanding athlete/student/leader. The 'undesirables' were white, poor, uneducated and came from a family that had been poor & uneducated for generations. They all had family members in jail or just out of jail. Into this 'culture' moved a black male as part of a program to bring inner-city youths to rural areas. He was an 80s version of 'gangsta'. Who did he hang out with? Not the other blacks who wanted nothing to do with him but the other poor, uneducated kids. It's all about perspective, expectations, and experiences.

I'm extremely sympathetic to that Khan. Reading that pisses me off too. But what irks me about most of your rants about how terrible black people are lies with my question you've ignored. You reject all other attempts to get at the root of the problem, which I think we can all agree is a serious problem in the black community. It's not slavery, it's not socio-economic status. It's not that we see far too many black men not fathering their children. What is it? Skin color? I know that's not your answer, but you seem entirely hostile to any other.

I didn't realize a little thing called statistics was a stereotype.

http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=33650



Course, that doesn't mean I'm going to be walking up to a Jewish person and saying "Hey man you're rich!", but it's still part of a little thing called averages. Just a slight difference between that and being stereotypical, just as we can safely declare that the average income for blacks is lower than that of whites here. You can come up with anecdotal examples if you want, but that doesn't imply that the average is false.

Now, as for southerners, I'd absolutely agree they're all stupid!

In all honesty, I'm happy to just play along with that. In my heart, I have a great affection for southern culture and its people, and could care less if you believe otherwise. If you want to believe that because I called someone a redneck once and subsequently played along with your idiocy that I'm a southern hater, be my guest =) Though, I don't think it speaks very well for the cause you're trying to promote with an ironically baseless(if not a bit prejudice) claim.

Surcam, it isn't about how terrible black people are. It's about how incredibly violent and how care free the black people who commit these crimes are and the frequency in which they comit them.

I am probably not saying it as well as someone else might.

When I see on the news something like these kids getting robbed while waiting for their school bus and they give the description as being black male 18-29 I am not surprised like I would be if it were white males 18-29.

I know just as well as anyone on here that it isn't black people as a whole. It is a very small minority and please don't think that I am being stereotypical. I don't look at a black man on the street and say to myself, "He's black, he must be a criminal." It is the ruthlessness, the utter disregard for another person and/or their life or property that worries me.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Also I'm sure the gangsta lifestyle had absolutely nothing to do with passed on socioeconomic status. It's not like we ever see white gangs or mixed gangs EVER, right? Who.. oddly enough, are also commonly found in... /drumroll... socioeconomically-deprived communities.

This is different from what you're implying here:



Maybe some clarity just needs to be added there. If you're saying it's never happened to her specifically, that's one thing. But it sounds like you're trying to say more than that with this statement. Why even mention the race if it just happened to be in her case?

Nice try Venen, but as usual fruitless.

It is still 547 white killers to 1100+ black killers, a 34% increase, even though there are still 15million more "Socioeconically-deprived" whites.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

this makes no sense... Your clarity needs clarity.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

The problem is that when you have a group of people that are generally deprived to a degree more than the other groups, it *spreads* throughout that culture even if some in that culture are more affluent and on the same economic level as others in this country.

I'm sure the income statistics have nothing to do with the fact that ~55% of those polled have a college degree, and ~25% have a graduate degree.

Not sure what you're getting at Sarissa. Their socioeconomic status (apparently) remains with or without that amount of education.

You want to lower the minority crime rate? Have more minority protagonists in fantasy and sci-fi. Seriously. Lando Calrissian doesn't count, dude was still a criminal.

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Tuvok!

Better than Carmel?

We head down to North Central once every year with our students who qualify for the State Solo / Ensemble Contest. That school is damn big!

nobody gives a shit about jr. high / high school accomplishments. lol

I'm not sure what you mean. Is there something wrong with Khan wanting his kids to get the best education for their interests as possible?

Or are you just shitting on my mentioning the kids that go to state from my school? In that case, just because you don't care doesn't mean that people don't care, especially in certain subject areas. The 30,000ish people that went to state marching band finals in Indiana seems to point that someone, somewhere cares. The parents certainly care. The kids themselves certainly care.

I sure hope your daughter doesn't get good at anything. "Hey dad, my basketball team made it to state!" "No one gives a fuck, go away."

Quality.

in the big scheme of things nobody cares what you did in jr high and high school. i applaud my daughter very much so and spoil her with congratulations when she gets student of the month (twice!) but i realize while it's nice, nobody cares.

just like being first chair in some shitty ass junior high school performance group. or having the lead in your school's romeo and juliet production.

Yeah it's about the same level as those people who brag about their shitty garage bands. lol

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Socio-economic status and education go hand in hand. It shouldn't be a surprise that a group with a higher than average number of college degrees has a higher than average median salary. It's the prime driver for moving up the ladder. That and escaping one's neighborhood if it's shitty.

Something like an extension of state school education grants, that applies as in-state for the lower 48 would go a long way towards that.

don't we have a state of the union coming up this week

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