I think the speech was ok. We discussed it today and I felt it was a lot less inspirational than the campaign he ran. I chalk it up to knowing your enemy and being able to look them dead in the face.


But yes I heard "This is a great day for black America" way too much. How about a great day for America. Even in discussing this, and after people stating that they do not care if he is black white or whatever, they were responded to with statments like "Of course you want him to be an American. Because the fact that he is black and is president is something else you can take away from our culture."

You cannot combat past ignorance with current.

Bleh, horribad. Should read: "expected to believe".

I probably shouldn't bother, but these little errors bug the crap out of me =p

And I was one of those people. And I'm proud of our nation...not because we elected a black president, but because we elected the best man for the job in spite of being black.

That says something, and it's a good step for the nation to be taking.

But, as usual, attention whores and never-be-satisfied types in the black community insist on making it about race, making it out to be some victory over whitey, and still continuing along the usual path of, "Well, this is ok...but, you know, we still gotta keep up the fight against the white!" (We can rhyme too, lolol!)

Actually, "in spite of being black" probably wasn't the best choice of words, I should have said that we chose the best man for the job, regardless of race.

yea, that has a connotation of negativity. kinda like, in spite of him being retarded

Yeah, yeah, I fixed it! <3

Damn you! Corrected it before I could jump all over it.

Dammit Surcam, you're not being offended enough! I'm trying here, you know!

LEAVE BUSH ALONE

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That's what she said

Everyone knows the best man for the job would have been Hillary.

Kidding....seriously, just kidding.

Hillary is probably hung like a grape. I bet Obama has a big thick rod.

OK, Pres. Obama's speech was a big "Meh" nothing special, nothing memorable, nowhere near one of his campaign speeches (you can tell that Axlerod didn't write it, some reports were saying that Obama wrote it). After all the buildup to it I was expecting a Kennedy-like speech that shook the foundations of our nation, yet all we got was leaves blowing in the gentle afternoon breeze.

I was offended by the benediction mainly because it perpetuates the culture of us vs them -- The Rich vs the Poor, Black vs White, and Haves vs Have-nots (interestingly missing was man vs woman). I thought Obama ran his campaign of getting us all together as ONE nation, not Black America, White America, Red America, Blue America, Rich America, Poor America but AMERICA. That is what I want, ONE AMERICA. To have Rev. Lowrey end the inauguration in the manner that he did, to me, put us to believe that we are no better than we were in the 50's and 60's.

That is what offended me.

That's your point of view, I suppose. That's certainly not what the average American got out of it. You hate Obama though, so it's easy for you to nit-pick and use your jaded perspective to continue the hate.

Actually it probably is EXACTLY what the average American got out of it. Just another cheap shot at us uppity white folk.

Either way, Surcam, please accept my apology for being born white. And on my behalf accept the apologies of all my ancestors who owned black slaves here in America. Oh wait, I am second generation American, my family didn't own any.
Never mind.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

I accept your apology Khan. Where are the rest of you bastards at?

Now that I'm thinking about it, my mom hasn't apologized to me yet. I'm gonna give her a call and demand what's due to me.

I always love the "my parents didn't own slaves" thing, as though Jim Crow never existed, and there still aren't 100:1 sentencing disparities between crack possession and powder coke possession on the books.

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Hope is the new black.

You see, Chewbacca is a wookie; from the planet Kashyyyk.

Personally, I am still waiting for the rest of you to pay reparations to my Jewish brethren for making us slaves for one fuck of a lot longer than the blacks were here in America.

Donate here http://www.paypal.com

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

And I love the, "But you're white, so you MUST have done something wrong. No matter if you just got here, were living in a hole for 500 years, or are friggin Mother Teresa, WHITE FOLK DID BAD THINGS TO BLACK FOLK, YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE!" thing.

I'm having a hard time making the leap from the fact that segregation happened 50 years ago and there are more black people in jail than white people to some sort of rebuttal to any points about white guilt or responsibility for that, in this day and age.

Is someone saying it's my fault or that I should feel any sort of responsibility that those two things happened or are happening?

The minute we can trace back the Jewish ancestory to slave times and also discern that any economic(and social) hardships they're enduring now(cough) are as a direct result of inheritance of one poor family to the next, just like we can do with African-Americans right now... then I'm all for reparations for them =)

Until then I guess they'll have to suffer miserably as one of the top economic brackets in society, similar to the impoverished oppressed white man.

That must be awesome.

Boss: Why aren't those TPS reports done yet?!?

Me: Well, you see, it all began 400 years ago when....

That seems to be a pretty clear indicator that you're in favor of reparations. But hey, i don't want to "jump to any conclusions". Is that the case?

heh

To a certain extent, yes. I'm not convinced we can produce economic equality for those who suffered poor historic inheritance with nothing but a free market(at least in any reasonable amount of time). I think it could happen eventually, but it would take a much longer time than should be needed for it to balance out.

I laugh at people who say "I shouldn't have to take any responsibility for what was done years ago before I was born!". Weirdass analogy inc: You're born a baby laying on top of a bear trap that is crushing someone's hand. For the sake of argument we'll say the baby is growing up pretty fast and begins to grasp morality and care for others within a pretty short period of time. Your parents put that trap there, you had nothing to do with it!! But, at some point, you realize that someone's hand is being crushed under you, and you get off it.

By the same token, those that are classified as having a greater chance at wealth and prosperity in this country via the race they were born as are reaping the same benefits of ancestry and inheritance. EVERY time you take that 25 extra cents you got from a dollar's pay at work, you have crushed that bear trap shut a little bit more.

You reap the benefits from, but you conveniently wipe your hands clean of any slavery because of a certain amount of time passed, and a certain amount of wealth gained from it has changed hands over the centuries.

Just call me Mr. Pfleger... not that I agree with everything he says, but that argument rang of some truth.

I suggest setting up a voluntary fund.

Everyone that feels guilty can donate as much money as they like. For some reason, I don't envision you writing a whole lot of checks, Venen.

This borders on absurdity, I'm sorry.

I know we live in a society of blame, but even this just pushes the boundaries.

What next? People start going on vast genealogical research projects and suing the living descendants of every person who ever wronged any of their ancestors?

Even if we DO buy into the, "You're poor because something bad happened to someone who had your skin color 400 years ago." stuff, where do we draw the line? When do we finally say, "You know what? It's no one's fault but your own that you don't get a job, that your don't send your kids to school, that you do drugs, that your boyfriend got thrown in jail, etc etc."

In a way, I almost wish we WOULD give them some reparations...just to see what the next excuse for their failures in life would be. I sure wish I had some taboo-protected thing to blame all my life's failures on, but no, I'm white. My failures AND your failures are my fault, apparently.

I'm Irish. You stole my lucky charms! Reparations!

I'm Mexican. You stole California from my people! Reparations!

I'm black. I may or may not be a descendant of a slave. Reparations!

I'm Asian. I built your railroads adn didn't get paid. Reparations!

I'm a Jew. I'm sure someone in my line was killed by Hitler. Reparations!

I'm an Indian. You stole my country. Reparations!

I'm Muslim. You are a zionist infidel pig-dog. Reparations!

Stop living off of your relative's experiences. They were not your own and you are not owed a god damn thing regardless of what your or your family's background is. If someone in this day and age makes a slave out of you, revoked your liberties and freedoms without your permission, or in some way made your life significantly less bearable then feel free to seek reparations all you want against THAT person. Otherwise, you really need to stfu about reparations.

I'm all about righting wrongs, but slavery reperations are bullshit.

Holocaust/WWII ones are difficult enough, and there we're talking about real property, or being able to hold specific govt. agencies or companies accountable. Even then of course no one will say 'Oh well then that's okay then'. And even with such things being commonplace guess what?

Most people got screwed. Talk to survivors (while they're still here!). Every single one I've met, and it's more than a handful though it's under 50...but every single one got completely fucked over. They didn't get property back. They didn't get jewelry back, or money, or bank accounts, or businesses.

Or family pictures.

Nope, of all those I've met, 1 or 2 got back a few things. Generally it was a few photographs they were able to get from someone, often with threats or warnings to leave the area. In one instance (and I didn't even know these people personally...it's in Maus) they were able to get items buried before they were taken.

So the people actually getting shit back, shit we can trace, shit that happened to these people specifically in very recent history? SMALL percentage.

And historically we've all been fucked over.

That's not to say we shouldn't attempt to make wrongs right, or acknowledge the wrong in history. We should. We should absolutely without reservation CONDEMN a lot of shit we've done in this country, from the Japanese internment camps, through how we've treated pretty much every native people, through slavery, through racism, through....etc.

But no one is going to want to give up their house because someone figures out it actually belongs to a specific tribe that was screwed out of it 200 years ago, and so now they should get it back.

And people who think they're 'owed' something, well that's a huge part of the problem. People who are fighting because of principle and because they believe it's just...okay, I get that. Pick your battles, don't let it consume you...but I get it.

People pissing about it because they feel 'owed', life sucks for a lot of people. There are bigger problems to address.

I care far more about the skewed racial population of prisons than I do reperations. There's a much bigger fucking issue that's happening today. Slavery money isn't going to fix THAT shit.

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Just shut the hell up and pay me damnit.

Surcam, remember that one time, in that one place, where something bad happened?

THAT WAS ME, SUCKA!!! Just call me White Lightnin', my oppression will strike from the clearest of skies!

(Sorry, I'm just on a roll with this nonsense.)

lol

Y'all are some wierd-ass crackers.

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Hope is the new black.

Where's all the white women?

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I do believe Surcam is gettin' uppity.

Gettin'? Been, done, and will continue to be.

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Hope is the new black.

Slippery Slope +1.

One very large, very obvious case where reparations are not particularly hard to provide(a sizable minority, but a minority nonetheless) needn't result in any further action aside from potentially other similar groups of a similar nature. With affirmative action we've essentially already been doing similar actions to a degree, and it hasn't exactly resulted in disaster aside from the whiny "I'm a poor oppressed white man" crowd.

Please spare us the gay marriage comparisons to beastiality while you're at it.



And that'd be a pretty extreme form of economic reparations. But, you bring up an interesting point about the indian tribes... a good number of them have had their land reduced - not 500 years ago. Not 200 years ago. But over the last few mere decades they've had sizable reductions in indian reservation land size. That's a situation I wouldn't mind fixing, not at the cost of people's homes, but certainly there is enough land to give them a little more. Just as example, here in Washington the Makah tribe has lost a considerable amount of land mass over the past few decades(up on the northwest Olympic Peninsula). I've actually visited it, and there's a considerable amount of land surrounding it that's mainly just used for logging purposes.

Now I'd be the first one to agree that'd likely cost us something economically, but nothing significant.

Reparations on that scale, as well as on the scale of giving a helping hand to African-Americans to form a more equal economy, would cost us mere pennies... in light of the bailouts, it's not even in a drop in the bucket.

Just to be a little more upfront about this, I AM playing devil's advocate to a degree - I'm perhaps not as ultra-gung-ho about reparations as I might be letting on - though I DO think there is a little more merit to them than most people seem to think. I personally cringe a little bit inside when I see people's reactions to the mere mention of it, especially white folks. It's an almost instant reflex, often without a second thought... and well, that sets of a red light in my eyes.

Well, some people DO react pretty negatively to raw stupidity. <3

Grats on being the only person in this thread to take that shit seriously. You are officially Cicely Jr.

Oooo, look, Givin even showed up. This MUST be a serious thread!

Not talking to you poon.

Be nice!

The only one in the thread to take reparations seriously? By that, I think you mean one of the few people in the nation that takes it seriously =) Perhaps not the tiniest number of people, but still pretty few. You'll likely find more support for AA because it's somewhat "in between".

Though, I wouldn't so much say that it's because I take it seriously that I spoke of it so much as it's something to ponder. Perhaps, at the very least, it goes into just slightly more depth than the parrotted "I can't be held responsible for what my ancestors did".

The negativity of such a response would be the least of my concerns. If they have something profound and intelligent to say, I could care less if it's negative or hostile. My concern is the Neanderthal-like parrotting of common responses without any indication of independant thought of their own.

That's what I mean by an instant reflex "without second thought". Though, I must say, I raise an eyebrow in general when it looks like someone is responding to a serious argument with pure emotion - whether it's because they think the other side is stupid, or otherwise - it implies a lack of thoughtfulness and an obvious desire to skip through intelligent discussion and arrive at the conclusion without examination.

The problem is, there isn't any intelligent discussion to be had about the topic.

There isn't some deep ideas or thoughts that we're missing. It's just a greedy concept put forth by a group of people that - and by group I DONT mean blacks in general - somehow feels wronged by their nation and their people and feels entitled to something based on events they most likely know nothing about and that transpired between people they don't even know in places they've never heard of.

By all means, if someone feels they are being oppressed, taken advantage of, or discriminated against today, say so. I'll probably be one of the first to jump to their defense. I hate discrimination and racism. But don't jump up and demand something from a nation you live in and a people that should be your brothers because you heard that somewhere, at some time, someone with your skin color had something bad done to them.

Venen, you lost most of us with the weird bear trap analogy.

And I thought Bearne might be on your side, but he ran away from his point pretty quickly, heh.

Don't be racist. Don't stereotype.

But all Jews are rich and all Southerners are racist, white trash crackers. (Just pointing out two stereotypes Venen has bought into. We've heard the Southern cracks from him often enough...now the rich Jews comes out. Guess I'm imagining falling below the poverty line here!)

OK, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

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Guess I should add - Yes, there are rich Jews. I know black people who are well off, too! Zomg!

My great grandparents came over here on boats with nothing. Absolutely NADA. And shit wasn't given to them. In fact, my grandmother remembers still seeing "NO JEWS" on signs right along the "NO BLACKS." (

My family has worked their asses off for what they have. They aren't rich by any stretch of the imagination, but they aren't in the poorhouse, either. I just happened to choose a very, very low paying field, and I'm going to go back to school to get out of that field, probably.

My family hasn't paid for my college - I've gotten Pell Grant, scholarships and loans. My grandparents didn't pay for my mother's education - she did the student loans and working her butt off (she now has a doctorate).

So just because there are Jews who are wealthy in the country doesn't mean there aren't people who can't directly trace back to hardships entering the country. Maybe not slavery (here...family in the Holocaust? Check.), but using it as a crutch and asking for reparations? I call bull shit.

I'm not saying there isn't racism. I'm not saying that, as a whole, non-whites won't have to work their asses off. But I *am* saying it's possible to advance despite that, and I personally believe that it'd help if some people stopped acting like stuff was owed them and if they work hard instead.

(Oh, Tarot - regarding the stuff from the Holocaust? There was an article from The AP not too long ago about Jews who are having trouble getting their PERSONAL stuff back from museums because the museums think the original owners won't treat it properly or might sell it. If they do? So what? It belongs to them! Article is here.

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Austy we all know about your Jew gold, stop fronting.

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Garborg I already posted that.

I wasn't aware that I was running away from anything.

My whole point on this thread is that I find it hilarious when white people a) think racism has magically disappeared and b) act like they should get a gold star for not being a racist fuck, as though merely being non-racist - which should be one's default state - is something to be proud of.

I don't know about anyone else posting here, but my mom never gave me an extra cookie in my afternoon snack because I didn't burn down the black church down the street that day.

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Hope is the new black.

Mine did, Bearne, but that's just because she knew what horrors might otherwise be unleashed.

Who said anything about being rewarded for not being racist, Bearne? Most of us just don't want everyone trying to make us feel guilty about something or tell us we're innately bad people or have someone tell us we owe someone something just for being white.

Blame the glorification of the "Gangsta persona" that permeates the age 14-17 age group. Look at the numbers... Nationally, In 2000, 539 white and 851 black juveniles committed murder. In 2007, the number for whites, 547, had barely changed, while that for blacks was 1,142, up 34 percent. All the while the population statistics are 74% white, 13.4% Black and 14.8% Hispanic. You really cant tell me that the hispanic population is any better off that the black p opulation.

look at NY City alone, Of the 244 murders between Jan. 1 and June 30 2006, lecords showed 64.8% of the victims were black, Hispanics accounted for 23.4% of the victims, whites 7.4% and Asians 4.5%. Among murder arrests, blacks accounted for 64.9%, Hispanics 27.2%, whites 7.3% and Asians less than 1%.

You commit more crime, you get more people in jail. What's so hard about that?
And don't give me that they can't get a job bullshit so they resort to crime. If a non-english speaking hispanic can surely a black person can. It's all about choices. I want to work - I will get a job



You mean your family wasn't on welfare and free school lunch;didn't buy you $150 pairs of Air Jordans or $100 pairs of jeans or $150 NBA jersys to wear to grade and middle school? Instead they saved their nickles and dimes and bought shit that meant something and had value? Oh how much your childhood must have sucked!!!

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -Henry Louis Mencken
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VEGETARIAN -Noun (vej-i-tair-ee-uhn): Ancient tribal slang for the village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride.

Sanctimony, thy name is Bearne.

When you notice the correllation between crime and poverty and start asking why there are dissproportionate amounts of blacks in poverty in our current social system, perhaps you'll understand a little better.

Or, when you look at the unbelieveably unequal system we have for education in the US-- maybe then you'll start to understand.

As usual, it's a pretty gray world out there.