If so, Neesha is going to jail soon. :p

http://government.zdnet.com/?p=4233



At this point, it looks like it is only being applied to text messages but who is to say this won't be applied in all internet mediums in the future? This scares me...seriously. I don't approve of what that lady did with the Myspace account where the girl ended up killing herself, but I can see this kind of oversight going way too far and limiting freedom of speech on way too many levels, especially in an environment like the internet.

*starts writing his resume to apply for an upcoming internet police job*

Truthfully, I've never wished death on anyone or "did my part" to try to push them over the edge (unlike others on these boards who have said things like "the world would be better without you").

Yes, it could affect message boards, but you've always had liability for whatever you've chosen to post. Nothing really changes, you'd still have to demonstrate damages.

Primarily I think you'll see it used against groups, like the people who egged on the guy who killed himself via webcam.

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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/ ... ME_4680952

Yeeeeah this law isn't going to stand.

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Yeah, this kind of stuff is scary. Gotta be careful who you talk to, never know if they're gonna do something stupid and get you thrown in jail!

Besides, anyone who kills themselves already has some problems. To say that someone committed suicide because of something one person said to them on the internet is entirely foolish.

God people who kill themselves are so annoying. Ugh. Some chick randomly messaged me on the internet through Myspace the other day:



What a bitch. I sent this back:



Will I be in trouble if she kills herself? What a ho.

Heh...I got teased/bullied a lot in school too. I just learned how to throw a punch instead of crying about it and thinking about killing myself.

everybody gets teased in school.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... D=52095651

I mean seriously, wouldn't you have made fun of her too?

Nah. I wasn't (and am not now) really into picking on people. (Well, I do make jabs at people online, but it's usually good-natured stuff, though it doesn't always come off that way I guess.)

I just wanted to mind my own business usually. It's when people started sticking their noses into that business that they'd best be ready to follow through. It really is true about bullies though...once you stand up to them they dissolve. I was ready to take an ass-beating in school if I had to, just to prove that I wasn't going to let them run me over, and I never once had to take that ass-beating. =)

I don't even remember who she is, but she was probably some dopey goth girl who craved attention anyhow. I was never a bully or relentless, I never went out of my way to talk trash about people, but I tend to be a pretty popular person, still am to this day. People like me, so maybe she was jealous of that. She had to go to an alternative school too from what I can tell so I know I wasn't the only person who may have given her shit now and then.

I just thought it was utterly retarded to send someone a message like that. Get over it and move on. It was solely my fault she tried to kill herself? Yeah, right.

You've got a point, Sky. I mean, I've never wanted to kill myself after talking to you. Kill you, perhaps, but never myself.

Syuni, be careful, he might try to kill himself because you said that!!!

*yawn*

I might try to kill myself due to your condescending dismissal of my warning!!!

YOU'RE GOING TO JAIL, SIR! JAAAAIIILLLL!!

At least the sex will be free.

Hahaha. Seriously?

You went out of your way to send her a response. Just in what you've presented on these forums you've gone out of your way more than once too.

I seriously doubt people disliked you because of 'popularity'. It reminds me of people who complain that their lack of success in relationships is because they're "too beautiful" or "too smart". It's generally their delusion to cover their serious character flaws.

There are people who dislike me. They don't dislike me because I'm pretty, smart, or popular (if one even believes any of those apply). That may ADD to their dislike, but they dislike me because something about me just rubs them the wrong way. I may not agree with their assessment of me...I've had some people go on at length (Livak springs to mind for some reason) on the laundry list of what they dislike...but while it's true for them doesn't make it true.

Of course there are some character flaws I DO clearly have, as do we all. And certainly some of these can rub people the wrong way. But I'm aware of them and either they don't bother me, or they're still areas I'm working on in life.

And everyone has someone who dislikes them, it's a fact of life.

What I see here though is you haven't just gone out of your way to mock someone who was apparently previously deeply affected by your words and actions...but you've gone pretty far out of your way to do so. You've posted a picture of her (hotlinking it so she can find this thread) and mocked far more than her note to you.

While I agree the note is pathetic on a number of levels, and her lack of anything akin to personal accountability plus an attempt to level guilt is wrong...she's also someone who's clearly wallowing in some serious misery.

Why would you add to that?

Oh yeah...

PS: If you have good things in life, you don't have to constantly remind people about it. It's like people who always say 'I'm a great guy'...apparently they have a need to convince others because it's bullshit or they feel it's not obvious. If you have all those things in life (and I'm sure most don't care one way or another) you shouldn't have to constantly reiterate it. It only comes off looking like you're either bullshitting or are tremendously insecure. IMO anyhoo.

---------------

But back on topic...Sky shouldn't go to jail for being a dick either. There's a level of accountability though...if you take someone like that and go off on them and tell them you hope they die knowing they're psychologically fucked up or vunerable, then yeah...there's accountability.

But being a prick on the internet shouldn't result in jail. I wouldn't argue with a good ass kicking for some though.

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Angry Man on Man lovin!

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
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On a serious note though, the internet is just being increasingly villified and criminalized lately. People getting in trouble for stealing things in-game, laws being passed over people being mean, the internet being portrayed as the only place to find pedophiles anymore, even a part of this Megan case seems to revolve around her breaking the MySpace Terms of Service.

Gets to the point where I actually begin wondering if someone is going to call the cops when I PK them, or call Chris Hansen when I say "Kiss my ass" to someone and it turns out to be some 12 year old.

Haha, you're over thinking things Tarot. It took me 30 seconds to whip up that message on Myspace while checking other messages. Hardly going out of my way.

And I disagree about the whole people disliking me because I was popular -- ESPECIALLY in Jr. High. (where this supposedly happened. I went to high school in Utah.) Isn't a goth nerd hating someone because they are more popular or have more friends like the most common theme in the world?

My pain ... is black like the 3rd orbit of the celestial moon...



Lol, IRL.

I guess this all falls into "slippery slope" arguments.

The link you posted had references to various threats. One of them said people threatened to rape a girl. I think that's pretty clear-cut against the law - not sure why you need a "cyber bullying" law for that.

Where it gets more complicated is something I saw on TV. There were like 4-5 girls who teamed up on another, created a fake boy on the internet, and went on to publicly humiliate the girl, and the girl killed herself. One of the girl's MOTHER was involved in the scheme. I am not sure how I feel about that.

At what point does freedom of speech end and people start being protected? Jr. High and High School can be nasty if you're a little different or don't fit in.

I personally think a line has to be drawn, but I am not sure where. I guess at a point where the activity becomes predatory in nature. Of course, now I have to define that.

_________________
Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

And OMG, I only skimmed Sky's posts. Is that shit not funny? He's even more pathetic than I imagined.

Is that the chick from Weird Science?

Uh, no. Maybe if she was somehow rude to me first... but in general, why? I just don't see a point to randomly make fun of people for no particular reason. Especially if there's no provocation and it's to their face and leaves them insulted.



Yeaaa..... You may want to have a conversation or two with Hemingway, or arguably Lincoln(manic depressive, alleged suicide poem).

I won't bore you with the details of chemical imbalances in the brain which can spur depression(which can lead to suicide..), which clearly indicate that they are all losers who can't do shit right, attention whores, and people who deserve to die.

I'm not sure if Sky is purposefully trolling here or not, but it's worth clarifying the inherent idiocy for its own sake.

I think suicide is the ultimate act of proving how much of a fucking idiot someone is. Attempting it is on the same level just a tick above, only it's funnier because they weren't able to complete the job.

I don't give a fuck about chemical imbalances or feelings of being isolated and targeted and oppressed. No excuse for you, and if you attempt and successfully complete suicide then fuck off. The world is better off without you.

Could you at least explain the association between those said chemical imbalances and your criteria for intelligence for said idiot?

I mean, personally, I would have preferred to read a few more of Mr. Hemingway's works. Perhaps you think we were better off without him for those extra years, but I think the world of literature may disagree with you on this count.

I might also add that he also tried and failed to commit suicide on more than one occasion. You'll have to forgive my obvious lacking of a sense of humor on this one.

Exactly, there are criminal laws which currently exist for 'terrorist threats'...such as threatening to rape someone. People have been prosecuted for stuff like that before. There was a case about 10 years ago now in San Diego where a man was convicted of threatening rape via email to someone on the east coast. We're not talking 'I'd rape you lolz' or 'I hope you get raped' but very specific and threatening e-mails. No special law was needed it fell under existing laws when you go out of your way to terrorize someone like that.



That's pretty much Megan's law. Jist was...2 girls were friends then they drifted apart and were even at diff. schools. Girl A (or her mom or both) hears rumors that Girl 2 (Megan) was talking shit about Girl A. The mother then, with her daughter and her 18 year old personal assistant creates a cute boy page on MySpace to lure in Megan to see what if anything she has to say about Girl A. The account is used to romance Megan up, then it turned on her. It culiminated with 'Josh' saying the world would be better off without her no one loved her go kill herself type shit.

Mom of Girl A also knew Megan had been under a doctor's care for years for clinical depression and had been on medication (and was so because of suicidal idealation). The assistant apparently sent the message which caused Megan to take her life.

Since no specific threats were made against Megan, but merely meanness and harassment, there wasn't really anything that could be done about it. Some existing laws were greatly stretched to cover it. And Megan's Law put into place.



There's already bullying laws in place because of children so badly tormented at school that they've suffered physically as a result, attempted to kill themselves and sometimes even others. We (as a society) saw a need to protect kids where it was taken to an extreme. You don't have freedom to harass people at school. Students on campus really don't have free speech anyway, there are dress codes, etc.

But sure you're not going to end all teasing, nor is it really designed to. The school should have punishments for it, and when they fail there are laws holding them accountable too.



I do think there should be laws to prevent specific harassment, such as what happened to Megan. If you look at some of the 4chan shit as well, their harassment 'for the lulz' has also at times gone too far. Mob mentality can be a terrible thing. There are also school gossip sites where people can anonymous post terrible things about other people. I've never viewed them myself but the articles I've seen paste an ugly picture. Yet, IMO, the site is only part of the problem...if people didn't look, well it would soon die off.

I'm not unhappy with the concept of accountability, but it goes both ways.

And I do agree with you, while it's easy to point at shit way over the line (what happened to Megan IMO), the closer you get to the line the fuzzier it gets. Much of internet dickery is shitty...but shouldnt be a crime per se. It would result in the person suffering consequences IRL generally though if they weren't anonymous. And I'd argue one of the reasons communities like ours did so well is there were other forms of consequence, such as in-game, guild, and shunning.

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But really, at what point do we just tell people to...um..."Harden the fuck up" as that one guy says.

No, I'm not just trolling, either.

Life's not a pretty place. If we start teaching kids that you can call the damn cops when someone calls you a name, what're they gonna do when actual important things go wrong in life?

Actually Bov, therein lies the problem with bullying.

You and your 3 friends corner a kid at school and tease him. One guy calls him fat, another calls him stupid, another calls him poopface, whatever. It's mostly harmless, but if you're the kid it's happening to, it really sucks.

What do you tell that kid to do? Does he punch those guys (and proceed to get an ass beating)? Does he call them names, to which they just tease him more? Does he tell a teacher, who tells him to stop being such a whiner?

That's the delimna with bullying. Until there is blood, there is nothing the kid can do. And really, "harden the fuck up" isn't really legit to me.

I don't know the right answer. Part of it is the machismo of our society. If someone calls you a name, it hurts. If people go out of their way to ostricize you, it hurts.

Life isn't really all that hard, is it? And should it be? If someone is making me miserable, I should have recourse against them, somehow, right? The question is how much recourse?

I don't know the right answer, but I think telling a 14 year old to suck it when they are mostly powerless to control their fate is a bit unfair.

And Tarot, I think I described the Megan case. Oops.

I had something similar to this happen to me in Jr. High. (Not High, I was a short fat fuck in Jr. High. I went into High School as a very tall fat fuck, and the height changes things drastically)

I was cornered, so I just started to walk away. Naturally they blocked my path, but I kept walking at which point they pushed me back into the corner. I was ready for that though, so as I rebounded back into the corner I "banged" my head on the wall (enough to raise a welt, but not much more) and fell to the ground twitching and acting like I was having a seizure, possibly swallowing my tongue. An ambulance was called, and serious shit went down.

It didn't happen again.

I guess I'm a bit on the fence about where the line is as well. I agree one needs to be drawn, though. I think most reasonable people will agree that Megan's case was one where the bitch that said those things needs to be busted to the law's fullest extent, and then some. At the same time, you have to be careful not to allow any little insult to be reportable.

At SOME point, you may actually *inhibit* a person's ability to thicken their skin by allowing them easy escape routes, which in my opinion would be a tragedy. People I have met who have very thin skin tend not to be extremely happy people.

I think there's a line to be drawn whenever you have a situation where a suicidal person in question has made hints about doing it on a board or private messaging(or wherever), and people egg them on without restraint. I don't think it's a situation where you can say "this one looks legit, but this doesn't look like a legit suicide post". I think you have to treat them all equal for the most part and do like Tarot said she did - report them all to the proper authorities. There's room for obvious joking, or some brands of sarcasm, but if a person is stating outright that they have some intent I think you have to take it seriously.

General harrassment on the other hand... that's a very tricky line to draw.

What? No hyperbole?

_________________
Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

Like I said, my solution was to just not back down to them. Three of them? Fine. I'd take the ass beating if it meant letting them know that I wasn't there to be their punching bag. I never got that ass beating, either.

What do you tell the kid to do if someone is calling him names? Names? Really? C'mon. What you do is teach the kid that those kids are beneath his notice. That their names are worthless. Screw them. Do you care what they think?

I know it's not really all that easy. But it's better than teaching our children that names are so powerful that we should let the words control us and drive us to extremes.

wow, Sky is even more of a douche than I imagined.

I used to give you the benefit of the doubt, sir.

As for harassment, "harden the fuck up" is hardly the answer sometimes. In 6th grade, I was regularly pulled into bathrooms at school and the shit was beat out of me by 5-6 other students. There was no way I could have possibly stood up for myself. Parents generally didn't believe me. Teachers never saw it, or thought I was part of the problem. It wasn't until I started having urinary problems from avoiding the bathroom all day every day, and started refusing to get on the bus to go to school that adults started taking me seriously.

What exactly should I have done differently? In my 6th grade mind, I honestly thought that if I told an adult what was going on, I would be killed by these kids. Could you tell me what I could have done, with an 11 year old mind, to avoid this? Why was I a pussy for having suicidal thoughts? Was I just selfish? I just wanted to get away from my life, in any way I could, and it all culminated in me having to be talked down from the roof of my house before I was removed from the school in question. I guess I was just a selfish bitch that the world would be better off without, right?

I'm not sure if laws like this are going to be a cure for situations like that because kids will always find ways to be assholes and do shit behind teachers' and parents' backs... But, I agree 150 percent that "suck it up, harden up" is not always the answer, especially in situations like that.

I think the only cure for Fribur's situation is having better, more attentive teachers and better parents(for all the other kids involved) who are both willing to raise their kids right AND listen when kids that are not their own raise concerns that are legit.

Sorry to hear that happened, I'd never wish that on anyone =/ Unfortunately the way things are I think there are a large number of people who won't have much sympathy unless something similar happens to them or someone close to them.

Oh no, don't get me wrong...I'm not telling people to just "harden up" when they're getting jumped by a mob of kids. That's obviously something that needs to be handled by authority figures or something. That's far beyond just name calling and bullying and such.

I am glad someone else commented. I miss the days of the old Lanys boards when 10 people would have LOL'd him. Maybe I'm a cyber bully

That you are still alive to post that disproves your own theory.

Not really. I'm quite educated, good sir!

Just because you're educated doesn't mean you're not an idiot.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Ha. Whatever. Point is, I'm not an idiot.

That's cool if you sympathize with people who kill themselves. Me, I just think they're weak ass humans and that we're better off without them. Who needs all that "wah wah pity me life is so hard" bullshit drama?

So people with terminal illnesses who choose to go out on their own terms are weak ass humans and we're better off without them?

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Yep. Deal with the cards your dealt. Millions have before you, so why should you be any different?

yep. He's an idiot.

Fuck off, dope. You can't justify suicide.

I know better than to play a losing hand all the way to the showdown. Once you know you're beaten, then you can either lose a whole lot of money (and cause lots of distress to your friends and family who have to watch you wither and die) or you can fold the hand, saving yourself and those around you a lot of anguish.

You speak like someone who's never had to see a close friend or family member get eaten alive by a terminal disease, and I hope you never do.

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

Both my grandfathers had cancer that spread throughout their entire body and killed them, my grandmother had deteriorating kidneys and had to have dialysis until she died. Buddy of mine I knew from my days of being in a band, Nick, killed himself. Recently, my friend Peter in SLC tried to overdose on depakote and was put into LDS Hospital in SLC. I'm no stranger to terminal diseases or people killing themselves (or trying to). I lost a lot of respect for Peter, and my friends and I made a joke out of it because he was supposed to help me move. I said it was pretty inconsiderate that he did that to himself and got thrown into the mental ward of a hospital. I told him that to his face and he laughed about it too. Who knows what to make of that? It's not the first time he's tried to do it, but I think it's mostly just a cry for help. It's hard to OD on depakote.

Still, I just think suicide is for lamers.

You use the term "friend" lightly.

OMG let me guess - you're going to ... LAW SCHOOL!!! Thanks for reminding us, we almost forgot you were the most popular at your community college!

Didn't you hear? Going to law school makes you smart! Smart enough to brashly generalize about the important moral and social issues of our time! That's what we do in law school classes: we learn to have kneejerk responses to things and to argue whatever side of an issue appeals to us most!

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Knowledge without reason is useless.

http://boxrockssocks.blogspot.com/

It's ok though, because he's popular.

So if you are popular and go to law school and have a great life... that means you can be a complete asshole and douche and say/do things to others without regard or remorse or consideration?

So all this time I have been living wrong? Sigh...

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I'm not an asshole IRL. At least, the people who I associate with don't think I am nor does my wife or child.

They say that birds of a feather flock together though, normally I associate with younger working professionals who share similar interests as me, sports, video games, eating good food and drinking good beer, being a musician, etc. So it'd be hard to tell. I'm very well liked though so that is contrary to what you guys keep saying, that I'm an asshole. I also find it easy to talk to pretty much anyone I meet, because I do have a pretty large breadth of knowledge. So whatever.

I may be on the Lanys forums, but in re: suicide, most of my friends IRL think the same way, that suicide is for faggot ass losers. Everybody I know has had it up to here (puts hand above his head) with Peter and his retarded suicide attempts. The first time he was arrested on top of the SL library. He should have just jumped before they caught him.

Bottom line is, just because you guys THINK I'm an idiot, doesn't make it true. My life proves otherwise, and I don't have to prove it to anyone on the internet.

You're just the internet guys, not really all that important. Ha.

The more you claim your life is great IRL, the less anyone here believes you.

And if you feel that way about your "friends," then they aren't your friends at all.

Yet you keep saying how good your life is, like you're trying to reinforce it on your brain.

Tell you what... if we don't matter so much, why do you come here so often seeking validation?

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I don't know who came up with that rule about how someone says they have a great life makes it false, that's pretty stupid because I'm here to tell you I have an awesome life, and it's certainly 100% authentic.

And indeed, Peter is my friend. I care about the man, however, I've lost a lot of respect that he wasn't able to (or has not thus far) take control of his life. Instead of being a pussy, go see a therapist or doctor. Stop moping around in your moms house playing Ultima Online and watching Battlestar Galactica all day and complaining about how hard life is. Sometimes I just want to go beat the shit out of him so he realizes that some dumb girl is not the end of his world. I'm not the only one who has expressed that sentiment.

The problem is, these problems he perceives are not issues at all. They're minor in the scope of life, but he can't see past them. While us normal people can realize how trivial they are, it's frustrating for someone to stand by watching someone devolve into nothingness. I care for him, I urge him to get help, I tell him to stop taking oxys and railing them, but what else can I do? At some point a dope is just a dope, and he can't be helped by me.

Anyhow, Vanamar, I don't seek validation.

I say what I want to whomever I want, whenever I want. I don't care if anyone accepts it or agrees with me. Haven't you noticed that? I simply give my opinions on things.

I know I said I wasn't going to respond to Skycrasher again, but I wanted to comment on this, briefly, and then I'm done.

I used to think this same basic thing until last week when my mother committed suicide. I thought people who committed suicide were assholes with shitty lives who didn't care about others, blah blah blah, yada yada yada. Knowing my mom like I do, she was anything other than this description. She cared about her family more than anyone I know. She has been battling various diseases the past few years, probably had 4 strokes in the last 2 years, and had some other inner demons as well. But she was the best mother I could ask for and certainly the best grandmother she could be. Her grandkids absolutely adored their Nana and would often spend weeks with her in Louisiana. That's pretty uncommon for kids to WANT to hang out with their grandparents, but that is the type of person she was. They didn't go to her place to be spoiled with gifts, they went because they loved her unconditionally and she loved them.

So last Tuesday, she got fired from her job and promptly went home and shot herself. My mom wasn't a complainer when she was sick (which was quite often). She wasn't a "weak ass human". She made the best with what she had until she reached her breaking point. Who can know what went through her mind that day when she decided to do what she did? People handle things differently and she handled it in the most drastic way possible. I'm devastated by losing her but I'm not going to sit here and call her names for doing what she did. I'm sure she had her reasons, however fucked up they are to me. I do know that I am not better off without her. Her grandkids are not better off without her.

My 16 year old nephew got up at the funeral and read a blog that he wrote right after he heard about what she did. Would a 16 year old do that if he "would be better off without her"? How is he better off by her absence? She never complained to him. She never failed to show up when she said she would. She never changed plans at the last minute and left him (or any of us) high and dry. She wasn't a deadbeat grandmother and wasn't a deadbeat mom to me. Up until last Tuesday, I would have said she was the strongest person I know, for having to overcome the things she has overcome the past few years.

In the end, she decided that she'd rather die than face whatever it was she was going to have to face when she got fired from her job. I think it was the wrong decision and a decision that will impact my family forever, but that doesn't change who she was for the previous 58 years of her life. She was a terrific person who finally had her demons catch up to her and who didn't know any other way out other than taking her own life. It's terrible, but it just goes to show that even the best of people can sometimes make the ultimate selfish act.

To say that we are better off without these people in our lives could not be more incorrect. Having a dumbass buddy who uses suicide to garner sympathy and attention is quite a bit different than someone like my mom, who thought she only had one way out of whatever mess she was in. If you (Skycrasher) honestly cannot see the difference between the two, then I pity your daughter for having such a terrible father who is incapable of showing compassion. And I hope to hell that she doesn't end up like those other "less-popular" people that you somehow think it's ok to point and laugh at. When she comes to you crying because the other kids make fun of her because she's overweight and funny-looking with her glasses, I hope you don't practice what you preach and instead, offer her a shoulder to cry on. "Suck it up, you big fucking baby" is not an answer you give your kids when they are in a bad spot.

I think you mean "Suck it up, you big fucking faggot ass loser baby."

and yet, you keep right on doing it anyway, obviously disturbed that no one is buying it.

Seriously, we have an almost monthly thread about how awesome your life is. You are starting to remind me of closet cases that go on and on about how much they love pussy.

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