Business and corporations have gone global but JOBS are not yet global. Until there is parity in wages (and yes I understand that means the US standard of living will need to drop) and global competition for jobs with 0 barriers to movement anywhere in the world the whole mantra of a "global economy" is just bullshit that sounds good but results in countries with relatively high standards of living losing jobs to those with lower standards of living. Add in the environmental protections and healthcare disparities and we are in for a long and painful fall. Add in the average age of the workforce and the structure of societal economic nets and it gets even uglier.
Those foreign-owned companies that produce here are considered by some to be a great "made in America" alternative BUT where do profits end up? Whose national economy is benefitting from the spending those profit earners are doing? Not the US or the US not as much as their countries of origin.

I think this is all a ploy now because it seems everyone is jumping on the Bankrupcy wagon and asking for handouts even if they dont need it.

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

corporate welfare on steroids

Venen, I agree, but therein lies the problem.

If those three companies fail, so do all the related businesses, putting tons of people out of work... people who make the parts that go in the cars... people who fix the parts that break in the cars... ad nauseum. It's a cycle we can't afford.

And that means the most responsible solution is a plan that helps people who aren't at all responsible for this mess keep their jobs while demanding change where it will make the most difference.

You are contradicting yourself a bit there. If jobs is the important thing, then why do you care if a foreign car company opens up a plant here? The JOBS (you capitalized it, so that must be the important point) are still in America, even if some of the money leaves the country. Would you rather they opened a plant somewhere else?

I wish more foreign companies would open up here in the states. It means more jobs for Americans.

They are both important. Jobs are great and it's better for the US economy for Toyota or Hyundai to open a plant here than for them to open a plant elsewhere and import the product to sell here. But if someone is buying that car thinking it is as good as buying a car from the big 3 for our economy they are wrong. Yes, the jobs are here but the profits don't stay here.

The current state of the global jobs economy boils down to not individuals competing for jobs but localities competing. And what do they compete with? Tax breaks, lower required wages, lower environmental standards, lower worker safety guidelines, free land, etc. The US doesn't, can't, and shouldn't compete with India and China in those areas but we are forced to do so because of the structure of our trade agreements and the lack of enforcement of the pitiful protections those agreements provide.

The bottom line is that while there is a global economy on a corporate scale there is no such global market on an individual scale. Companies are free to move wherever they can best increase there profits but individuals are still restricted by governments in their movement.

It is of concern because nobody seems to be looking at the issue in the long term. Or perhaps they are looking at it and realize the political backlash they would face if they were to come out and speak about lowering the US standard of living while raising developing world's SoLs to balance.

This quote is nearly two years old, but more recent information (which I don't have a link for atm) isn't significantly different.From http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007 ... 34417.html

We're not just talking about factories. Domestic automakers employ engineers, designers, and a lot of other people involved in the pre-production process. For foreign companies, the vast majority of those jobs are not here in America.

Invest in the companies that are doing WELL, that are SUCCESSFUL.

Now my government is also talking about bailouts for the car industry. We need to stop throwing good money after bad.

Oh and I guarantee, with Paulson refusing to disclose to anyone just -where- he's spending all this goddamn money, it's going to the well-connected, will accomplish nothing, and you'll never see it again. America has been robbed blind.

Sorry Leo, I'm slow...

Let's talk "perfect world" first... we should support whoever can make the cars the best and cheapest. Currently >> foreign companies. My perfect solution ignores the fact that we have pepole who lose jobs. But, in my perfect world, those people get re-educated and do something else more important.

But, here in the stinky, regular world, 45 year old men getting new skills is not the answer. Telling someone to move from Detroit to South Carolina to work on a construction site is not what they want to hear.

The real sadness here is that I am not sure there is a right answer.

What I would really like to see is our country to invest in our auto industry and innovate better processes. But, you do not accomplish that by throwing money at a bunch of execs stuck in the 70s without global vision. Is it too much like communism to setup a government sponsored task force to recommend restructuring of the auto industry?

I dunno... I continue to ramble. As I get older, I realize I know less and less. It's a bummer.

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I knew once we approved a bailout we basically screwed ourselves as taxpayers... Corps are design to take our money by any means.

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

what makes you think we had control over whether it was approved or not?

The fact that we can hold those accountable who approved it by voting their asses out of office. The influx of public letters begging them to slow the fuck down was one of the factors in why the bailout wasn't immediately passed as first proposed.

And for an example, look how much political hay was made of the fact that Obama voted (in the vast minority) against the war. It's the type of stand which can make or break a career, and I think in this instance lawmakers were concerned both with trying to do the best by the US economy AND playing CYA.

Was it the best decision? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that the lack of oversight is fucking pathetic, and banks telling everyone to go blow when asked where the fucking money is going is unbelievable.

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Man..

Obama pushes $500 tax credit for individuals
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/05/news/ec ... 2009010505

How is that going to work when the previous attempts have not?

OBAMA IS GOING TO RAISE MY TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!

Read up on Alexis de Toqueville's definition of "soft tyranny". What principles will your average yuppie compromise on if it means they can keep their job and SUV? We're soon gonna find out.

yeah I told one of my coworkers they are a idiot for buying a SUV right now, she said but they are so cheap, and i told her that your going to pay the difference.

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"Creating Havoc and Pie Since 2001!"
My Website: http://www.anthonyhays.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cakvala

all cars are cheap right now because to a certain extent you can name your price

especially if you are paying cash for the car

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You find an electric vehicle or hybrid that can haul, tow my dirtbikes and handle all terrain (mud/snow/etc), with a 400+ mile tank range and I'll buy it tomorrow.

How? Gas is cheap and many decent SUV's can get over 18-21mpg. Many "hybrid" vehicles are currently selling at a premium. I know what you can do for your friend to help, and I guarantee you she'll appreciate it. Mind your fucking business about the car she's driving. Problem solved. Environment saved.

Heh, does ANYONE believe that gas will stay this cheap for more than 3-4 months? Anyone? Anyone?

Well, actually I should say it depends on the state of the economy. If the economic downturn continues, we're going to be in a lot of trouble in general but the gas prices will remain cheap or stay around the 2-3 buck range(my guess). Anyway, it's incredibly temporary.

Either way, Cakvala did the right thing. Anyone who's going to cry over a simple suggestion that they not drive a certain type of vehicle probably deserved the criticism more than anyone. Besides, it's still a waste of resources unless you actually need it for specific reasons(which would mostly depend on your line of work). With how many millions of people driving them no where outside of a city street, call it a hunch that they're not all being utilized for serious purposes.

I mean, we can just as well ignore the environment argument and speak of personal responsibility. If you're inefficient and like to waste finite resources, drive an SUV. The same people under survival circumstances living in the wilderness with a 2 month's supply of food would die of starvation in a week.

You're not only wasting humanity's natural resources, you're also wasting my oxygen.

I wish gas prices would stay higher. I hate paying for it just like everyone else, but it's the only time that people talk seriously about alternatives to gas, and things begin to happen. People are so damn short-sighted, and low gas prices make us forget the larger picture.

I don't waste them. I'd MORE than happy driving a hybrid Hummer if they were available. I also don't believe gas will stay this cheap. I also don't believe there's a fuel "crisis". There are a lot of reasons for the previous spike, but I also knew THAT wasn't permanent, and thus didn't run out to buy a Prius that I wouldn't even fit in to begin with.

Let's be honest here. The impact of our driving around isn't what needs to be solved first. You want to save the planet? Look at the shipping industry that gets you your Birkenstocks. Look at the production plants that make the tires on your car.



No, you're wasting your own oxygen preaching about all of the WRONG things. The environmental movement, which I support btw for the right movements (read: have their shit together, with the exception of those fucktards with Greenpeace), really needs to get their priorities in order with a plan of action. Saving the polar bears doesn't solve polar ice melt, not that we actually NEED to solve it, since we don't nearly know enough about the impact of changing shit either way.

It's going to take the same thing to get an alternative fuel on the table as it will to get everyone better internet.

People need to die off.

Both are preferrable to solve, or in the case of production make cleaner. One of them is something everyone can do as it is an easy personal decision. Still, millions of SUVs driving at 15-20 mpg over 25-30 mpg is nothing to sneeze at. The difference, small or large, easily adds up. That's a waste of natural resources.



Of course they fluctuate, but gas prices on average will continue to go up in a relatively stable economy. They didn't lower for right now out of the goodness of people's hearts. Our economy before the crisis hit allowed for some inflated prices, but it was hardly the best shape our economy has ever been in. And yet gas prices were higher than ever. The trend is up, meaning you'll save if you own a hybrid for a prolonged period of time(and get enough mileage on it).

I don't see it as a waste. We'll move to other energy sources - we don't have a choice. But we're not exactly "wasting" them now.