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 Post subject: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:28 AM 
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So many are so excited by the election of Obama. Personally, I think that people are more excited that W is leaving and not replaced by someone they think would give them more of the same.

Having said that... how will you measure success in this administration?

In the first year?
In the first term?

Social Goals?
Economic Goals?
Foreign Policy Goals?
Military Goals?

When you write them, try and be sure they are specific and measurable.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:15 PM 
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Already discussed, but I'm too lazy to find it for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:50 PM 
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Why don't we just rename this the, "Thread where GOP guys try to coax quotes out of Democrat guys, then bookmark it in the hopes of quoting something in a thread 4 years from now and saying, A-HA!!!!"


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:22 PM 
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I did not vote for Obama nor McCain. Here is what would cause me to say that the Obama administration was successful:

1 - Nothing is done to disrespect the Armed Forces. Improvements must be made in the way our military operates on a budget and acquisition areas.
2 - Tax rates on all taxpayers are not increased
3 - Governmental spending is controlled (cut in more areas than increased)
4 - Governmantal regulations are not implemented on a whim but smart, obsolete regulations are eliminated, and ineffective/over-reaching regulations are corrected.
5 - No infringment on citizens' rights and freedoms
6 - Upholding and defending the US Constitution
7 - Threats to our national security and sovereignty are responded to with the correct and appropriate responce.
8 - Inflation, Interest Rates, Unemployment, and other costs of living remain (or return to) low.
9 - A governance (sp?) not from one political ideological spectrum (aka the Dems are not always correct and the Repubs are not always wrong)
10 - Remembering and re-establishing the fact that the American Dream is not granted by the government but by the government removing barriers and letting the creative and inventive nature of the human spirit thrive.
11 - Running an honest, open, forthright, aboveboard, and ethical administration that does not do any illegal activities against the populace; move away from the politics of personal destruction; and not seeing people that rationally disagree as enemies but equally concerned citizens that may have alternatives to accomplishing equal goals.

but then I can be an idealist.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:27 PM 
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Uhhh... some of those are the opposite of stated goals by Obama. I guess you've already decided that he is going to fail then?


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:30 PM 
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Considering that they have already taken down what they want to achieve from change.gov what do we really know that he wants to do?

Those are my general guidelines as to what I want in a President.

And no, GWB was not successful in most of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:41 PM 
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Quote:
2 - Tax rates on all taxpayers are not increased


I wouldn't count on this one no matter who was elected.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:06 PM 
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My list (although I also was not a supporter):

First Year:
1~ Close Guantanamo.
2~ Begin a process to solve the Israel/Palestinian issue that includes as a primary concern security for both countries within defined and logical borders.
3~ 0 as in NO signing statements that in ANY way negate the purpose/intent of the legislation.
4~ Revision of the Patriot Act towards constitutionality.

By 2012:
1~ Overhaul of Social Security & Medicare to make them viable into the future.
2~ Devise a path towards fiscal responsibility and debt repayment that is achievable.
3~ Make Education a national responsibility rather than state/local with funding per student equal or close to equal at each school.
4~ Promote the creation of more manufacturing jobs domestically with an aim to become a net exporter.
5~ Complete the peace process between Israel & Palestine.
6~ Withdraw from Iraq in a way that does not allow Iran to gain any more prestige and allies in the region, maintains the Kurdish semi-autonomy, and bring sunnis fully into the Iraqi government.

None of those are unachievable. They will be difficult to accomplish but not impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:09 PM 
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Oops, forgot one:

First year:
~5 Breaks with Pelosi/Reid on an issue of importance and brings other Democrats across the aisle to join Republicans.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:13 PM 
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Quote:
2 - Tax rates on all taxpayers are not increased


Nobody could have done this. Non-point. I'm glad though he won't be extending the Bush tax cuts, while mine will be getting cut.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:35 PM 
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How're you going to pay for the 800 billion bailout that Bush just did?


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:37 PM 
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No one has any other options, they just want to complain about the only one there is.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:13 PM 
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My standard bar for success is pretty low at the moment. Not getting us involved in a pointless and costly war would be almost be good enough for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:55 PM 
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krby, looking at your list makes me a giggle a little just because there is definitely a Republican slant there. I am not writing this to rip you - just showing why so many conservatives are disconnected.

Let's see how Bush did on that list=

1. Nothing is done to disrespect the Armed Forces. Improvements must be made in the way our military operates on a budget and acquisition areas.
Poorly - sending troops to die with ill-prepared efforts is far worse than cutting budgets.

2. Tax rates on all taxpayers are not increased
OK... but now in a monster deficit
3. Governmental spending is controlled (cut in more areas than increased)
Miserable, they spent like drunken sailors.

4. Governmantal regulations are not implemented on a whim but smart, obsolete regulations are eliminated, and ineffective/over-reaching regulations are corrected.
Too arbitrary, but I would argue poorly. I don't know anything Bush fixed, just some bankruptcy laws he broke among others.

5. No infringment on citizens' rights and freedoms
Can you say Patriot Act?

6. Upholding and defending the US Constitution
See #5.

7. Threats to our national security and sovereignty are responded to with the correct and appropriate responce.
Failed miserably. Russia, Iran, and others laugh in our face now because we have been exposed as incompetent. Pakistan has been de-stabilized and N. Korea is generally pissed off.

8. Inflation, Interest Rates, Unemployment, and other costs of living remain (or return to) low.
Horrid.

9. A governance (sp?) not from one political ideological spectrum (aka the Dems are not always correct and the Repubs are not always wrong)
Miserable.

10. Remembering and re-establishing the fact that the American Dream is not granted by the government but by the government removing barriers and letting the creative and inventive nature of the human spirit thrive.
Come on... this one's silly and a matter of perspective and opinion.

11. Running an honest, open, forthright, aboveboard, and ethical administration that does not do any illegal activities against the populace; move away from the politics of personal destruction; and not seeing people that rationally disagree as enemies but equally concerned citizens that may have alternatives to accomplishing equal goals.
HAR HAR... fail.

If Republicans want to know why they got ass blasted in this election, read krby's list. You have a conservative's wish-list and Bush pretty much failed on all 11.

Somewhat amusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:06 PM 
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Weird... All I hear about is how excited people are that OBAMA WILL BRING CHANGE! I ask for that change to be quantified at all and its scoffed at. I am no W lover... I think he has been a sub par leader and a poor President.
We have all these thoughts about how much we hate how things are.

Lets make Surcam's job easier and start quantifying how you expect things will be better.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:29 PM 
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did you miss the part where I said GWB was not successful on those either?


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:26 AM 
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You did great krby, I am more hoping for responses from the great libs of this board... I would love to see Rugen, Bearne and the other harder core democrats show us the waterb.. I mean the line by which they will measure Obama's success. All I have seen for years is the (warranted) complaining and detailing of the failures of what used to be a conservative party.

I will openly admit... the republican party failed every possible measure I could have counted them against. What I don't want to see is more failure thats accepted because its "not as bad as W" ... Lets see some god damn success instead of constantly settling for the lesser of two evils.

Obama is the first president who wasnt sold on being that lesser.... so lets hear how he will succeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:04 AM 
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Quote:
Weird... All I hear about is how excited people are that OBAMA WILL BRING CHANGE! I ask for that change to be quantified at all and its scoffed at.

This might explain it:
Quote:
My standard bar for success is pretty low at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:51 AM 
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It very much is =) I'm still of the "Anyone but Bush" mentality. He may not be perfect, but of the selection of people running, he was the best.

The thing is, before Bush, 20-30 years worth of Presidents(course, from what I remember... you can take that back past Nixon and beyond if you want to go down the list) produced nothing of the sort, and nothing nearly as damaging. An "average" President is easy for me to settle upon after that. Would I vote for a perfect person if they ran? Certainly. That doesn't mean the bar isn't any lower =)

If you want a measurement of success, copy/paste about 70% of his stances on here and suggest that he succeeds on what he set out to do. Measurement complete. I have my disagreements of course on various stances, but by and large, most of what he has proposed I've read at length and find myself supporting.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:17 AM 
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I want four things from the Obama administration at this point.

First and foremost, he must give the American middle class the tax cuts he has promised.

Second, I want something done at least in the direction of healthcare for all.

Third, I want to see progress on Iraq withdrawal. It seems Bush's surge has gone a long way to making this possible, which is encouraging. I'm ok with a continuing American presence if convincingly necessary, but we can't afford our current levels. I want a serious audit of the costs of this occupation, and a serious lowering of those costs.

Fourth, a stepped up effort in Afghanistan. I, like most Americans, was always for this war, and still am. This is where our fight always was, and I'd like to see policies that reflect that. Capturing Osama Bin Laden would give me great, great joy. I've said it many, many times. If in late '01, '02 you would have told me he would still be at large in '08, I would have laughed in your face.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:41 AM 
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Yea, it's worth noting I will be upset if he decides to fully reverse his tax cut proposals. Half of the campaign against John McCain focused on that very issue(with Joe the Plant and all), he spent so much time telling us it was going to be 95 percent of working families getting tax cuts, he better damned well do it =)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:52 AM 
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I guess it depends on whether you believe Obama, Biden, or Richardson in terms of where you think the ceiling is for the tax cuts. None of them seem to agree. Is it $250k? $150k? or $120k?

And the 95 percent line is complete crap.

Quote:
In 2006, The Cut Off For The Top 5 Percent Of Earners Began At About $150,000 — Well Below Obama’s $250,000 Threshold. “Including all tax returns that had a positive AGI, taxpayers with an AGI of $153,542 or more in 2006 constituted the nation’s top 5 percent of earners.” (Gerald Prante, “Summary Of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data,” http://www.taxfoundation.org, 7/18/08)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:11 AM 
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Joxur knows more than the President-elect of the United States.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:11 AM 
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All my my measurements for success speak to my lack of belief that he will do half of the things he said he would, and that he's not prepared to respond to an act of aggression.

So:

1) Embrace the Geneva conventions publicly and transparently. Repeal the policies of the Bush admin totally.
2) Eliminate our practice of torture
3) Enforce FISA as it was intended, and cease warrantless wiretapping that is not held accountable through strict oversight. (will not happen, we know for sure)
4) Surge in Afghanistan
5) Socialize healthcare
6) Install staffers that actually back up his "change in washington" bullshit, rather than Clinton career professionals and other government careerists. Not off to a good start here.
7) Significant permanent presence in Iraq
8) No signing statements. Period. End of story.
9) At least move towards a more balanced budget with a smaller deficit.
10) Lead efforts, vocally and visibly, to establish equality for all Americans, chiefly gay rights. In my opinion, he is only here on the shoulders of people of the civil rights movement, and he has an obligation to do more in this regard.

And I'll leave you with this, it speaks to my complete pessimism that points 1-3 will happen.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/1 ... 42943.html


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:23 AM 
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THe difference in Joxur's statement and Obama's is semantics. Jox's quote deals with "earners", Obama dealt with either "Americans" or "Households". To get to that 95% in Obama's plan you need to have a refundable tax cut. So, even if you earned $0.00 you would be getting a tax refund from the government.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:24 AM 
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joxur wrote:
6) Install staffers that actually back up his "change in washington" bullshit, rather than Clinton career professionals and other government careerists. Not off to a good start here.
I like your list, except for here. First, the Clinton years were pretty good overall. Second, there's something to be said for "institutional knowledge". Change isn't necessarily about the people in charge, but rather the policies they're enacting. In my view anyway. Third, Clinton professionals returning to power in Washington after 8 years of Bush is change.

But I look forward to 4 years of grouchy, bitter, and pessimistic posts about Obama from you. If the Democrats suck as much as they have in Congress since taking power in '06, I'll be joining your side promptly.

Still curious why you were so coy about your vote though.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:34 AM 
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Quote:
I like your list, except for here. First, the Clinton years were pretty good overall. Second, there's something to be said for "institutional knowledge". Change isn't necessarily about the people in charge, but rather the policies they're enacting. In my view anyway. Third, Clinton professionals returning to power in Washington after 8 years of Bush is change.
Come on man. You can't really believe that.

Second, did you really just say "Clinton professionals returning to power in Washington after 8 years of Bush is change."??

I don't even know what to say to that. Putting people BACK in charge who were ALREADY in charge isn't fundamentally changing anything. Of course, I've long been on the record that the change message is complete crap, so I don't have any problem ideologically with old Clinton foot soldiers back in action. It's just disgusting that you voted for a guy, deliberately, who ran on a message he has no intention of instituting.

Quote:
But I look forward to 4 years of grouchy, bitter, and pessimistic posts about Obama from you. If the Democrats suck as much as they have in Congress since taking power in '06, I'll be joining your side promptly.

Still curious why you were so coy about your vote though.
At least you admit that I have great reason to be a bitter pessimistic asshole. And yeah, get used to it. Tell you what. If he does any of the items on my list in his first term, I'll admit I was wrong. I feel pretty confident that he won't, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:42 AM 
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Honestly there's too many possible black swans to make a definitive list. Would the 2006 cycle have had such a Democratic tilt if it weren't for the botched Katrina response? I kind of don't think so.

This is what I want to see. Not everything is of equal priority, nor is the list exhaustive. And some of it is a 'wish list':

1. Closing of Gitmo.
2. Repudiation of torture as an acceptable interrogation technique.
3. Talk with neutral hostile regimes to find common ground, if possible, and not just with allies.
4. Repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell.
5. Repeal of DOMA part II (preferably all of DOMA, but part II for sure).
6. Passage of SCHIP.
7. Appointment of smart people to positions within their areas of expertise.
8. Display a continued willingness to listen to multiple points of view and a strong intellectual curiousity.
9. Creation of a formal market exchange for derivatives / hedging instruments so that outside parties can establish fair values based on transparency of investment information.
10. Effective leadership at the Bureau of Indian Affairs & resolution of juridictional issues regarding law enforcement on reservations.
11. Promotion of the EPA to a Cabinet-level agency and a renewed focus on conservation.
12. Fill at least 80% of the vacanies of the Article I federal courts (district courts, courts of appeals, etc.)
13. Passage of the new GI Bill and emphasize meeting obligations to veterans.
14. Passage of the college / volunteer tax credit proposal.
15. Comprehensive study of the nation's admittedly aging infrastructure, and full funding of prioritized projects.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:47 AM 
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I could be wrong, but everytime I heard him mention the 95% of taxpayers, he said it like this, "95% of you will not see their taxes raised a dime." This is not the same as "95% of you will see a tax cut."


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:50 AM 
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bearne wrote:
4. Repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell.
It's a sucky policy really, but I'm not convinced this is a good idea. I'd like to see a thread discussion on why it is. As always with the debate over gays, I'm persuaded by the parallels to the African-American civil rights fight. But men and women are separated for privacy reasons, would straight soldiers be entitled to that same privacy from homosexual soldiers? Really a question for another thread though. I know we've discussed it before, but I wouldn't mind a rehash. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:52 AM 
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You are correct Fribur, but per his own words the only group that will remain at the same tax level is $200,000-$250,000.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:56 AM 
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Actually, if what I said is correct, it would include anyone that makes from $0 - $250,000. None of those people would see their taxes raise (according to him, if it be true).


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:58 AM 
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From the debate:

Quote:
OBAMA: I want to provide a tax cut for 95% of Americans. If you make less than a quarter of a million dollars a year, you will not see a single dime of your taxes go up. If you make $200,000 a year or less, your taxes will go down.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:00 AM 
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Right. Read it, lol. I don't know what else to say. Has it occurred to you yet that if your taxes go down (the 200k and down folks) that your taxes also will not go up?

In other words, the 200k and down folks are a subset of the 250k and down group.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:16 AM 
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Bearne -

Thanks for helping me understand and quantify how you will measure success.. I have some questions/comments...

Quote:
1. Closing of Gitmo.
2. Repudiation of torture as an acceptable interrogation technique.
3. Talk with neutral hostile regimes to find common ground, if possible, and not just with allies.
4. Repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell.
5. Repeal of DOMA part II (preferably all of DOMA, but part II for sure).
6. Passage of SCHIP.

Do you have a time line for these? Does it impact your feel if he waits until the 3rd year so it impacts his ability to get a second term?

Quote:
7. Appointment of smart people to positions within their areas of expertise.

Do party lines matter here? Does experience? How will you measure success? (I like the thought, just don't know how to measure it)

Quote:
8. Display a continued willingness to listen to multiple points of view and a strong intellectual curiosity.

Hard to quantify, but I can see how this is the change that many are excited about. I would hope that if you put any measurement to this, it is to be inclusive of not materially delaying decisions that need to be made due to wanting to be inclusive of a minority opinion.

Quote:
9. Creation of a formal market exchange for derivatives / hedging instruments so that outside parties can establish fair values based on transparency of investment information.

I love this one... the only thing I would add is that the exchange be set up in a way that supports ongoing maintainability. If the process is outpaced by technology, this will only be a stop gap.

Quote:
10. Effective leadership at the Bureau of Indian Affairs & resolution of jurisdictional issues regarding law enforcement on reservations.

I wasnt even aware this was an issue... will have to do some reading.

Quote:
11. Promotion of the EPA to a Cabinet-level agency and a renewed focus on conservation.

Of all your list so far... this is the only thing I hope does not happen.

Quote:
12. Fill at least 80% of the vacancies of the Article I federal courts (district courts, courts of appeals, etc.)
13. Passage of the new GI Bill and emphasize meeting obligations to veterans.
14. Passage of the college / volunteer tax credit proposal.
15. Comprehensive study of the nation's admittedly aging infrastructure, and full funding of prioritized projects.


The only glaring thing in all the goals is a lack of expectations for a time line. I would love your thoughts on this. There are things I have to research to see if I agree with as I don't know enough about the topics but on the surface there is only one thing I (as a conservative) don't agree with.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:55 AM 
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SurcamStances wrote:
I want four things from the Obama administration at this point.

First and foremost, he must give the American middle class the tax cuts he has promised.

Second, I want something done at least in the direction of healthcare for all.

Third, I want to see progress on Iraq withdrawal. It seems Bush's surge has gone a long way to making this possible, which is encouraging. I'm ok with a continuing American presence if convincingly necessary, but we can't afford our current levels. I want a serious audit of the costs of this occupation, and a serious lowering of those costs.

Fourth, a stepped up effort in Afghanistan. I, like most Americans, was always for this war, and still am. This is where our fight always was, and I'd like to see policies that reflect that. Capturing Osama Bin Laden would give me great, great joy. I've said it many, many times. If in late '01, '02 you would have told me he would still be at large in '08, I would have laughed in your face.


I like all of these except #2


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:05 PM 
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I'd like to see progress on all of those within the first two years. While I disagree with the majority of the Bush agenda, and am glad that a lot of got stymied, if I were a conservattive I would view the inability for a Republican President and a Republican Congress to push through my concerns as a failure. I think that if Obama and the Congress over the next two years can't get alot accomplished, it will be viewed as a failure of leadership.

Regarding party lines of appointees. I'd really like to see the best person for the job appointed. Realistically, I'm sure that in many cases, it will be end up being the best Democrat, but I would like to see multiple perspectives represented. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you can necessarily measure that ahead of time. Michael Browne was clearly incapable of being the head of FEMA, and you could see that from his resume. But in a lot of cases, you have people with similiar resumes and it becomes a judgement call.

Regarding a couple of specific topics:

- Indian Affairs. Violence against women is a huge problem on a lot of reservations. Reservation law enforcement has no jurisdiction to pursue non-Indians who commit even violent crimes, so they have to rely on state and local cops to arrest. That's the short version - there is info out there.

- The college credit. Obama has proposed a $4000/year refundable tax credit to college students who perform a specific amount of community service (I forget the exact number, but I think it averages out to about 10 hours per week) during the year. I like this because actual work is involved so it isn't a handout, it encourages community involvement on the part of students that will hopefully instill volunteerism as a habit, and it increases the number of volunteers available in the community.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:17 PM 
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Nobody could have done this. Non-point. I'm glad though he won't be extending the Bush tax cuts, while mine will be getting cut.


Really? Aren't you married? Say hello to the marriage penalty tax. Got kids? Say goodbye to the Child tax credit. Obama's "tax Cuts" don't even make up for those expiring hence your taxes will go up.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:17 PM 
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Xkhanx wrote:
Say goodbye to the Child tax credit.

Why should you get a tax credit just for reproducing?
I've never understood this.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:27 PM 
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The "marriage penalty tax" would only apply if you and your spouse make more than 250k, at which point you're making a good deal more than the majority of Americans. I'm guessing Skycrasher is safe, though I won't assume!


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:31 PM 
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yeah pretty safe for now bud ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:41 PM 
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Venen wrote:
The "marriage penalty tax" would only apply if you and your spouse make more than 250k, at which point you're making a good deal more than the majority of Americans. I'm guessing Skycrasher is safe, though I won't assume!

It is 250k of TAXABLE income, ie after all deductions and credits and other means of lowering tax liability have been taken into account.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:36 PM 
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Success will be if he can raise consumer confidence.
Our economy does best when folks can buy buy buy !


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:32 AM 
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Azzi wrote:
Success will be if he can raise consumer confidence.
Our economy does best when folks can buy buy buy !


God, I hope that doesn't happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:39 AM 
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No Palin in office. His presidency is already a success in my eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:49 AM 
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People who voted for the lesser of 2 evils wont have a measurement of success really... kinda makes sense. Seems that Givin is in that camp.

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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:43 PM 
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I'm sorry your six pack and quart of Haagen Dazs wasn't cut out to lead this country.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:46 PM 
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Maybe she should have played this rasslin' card instead.

Quote:
TNA invites Sarah Palin to Final Resolution PPV (seriously)

» Reported by Adam Martin of WrestleView.com
» On Tuesday, November 11, 2008 at 4:12 PM EST

The following was issued on TNAwrestling.com:

TOTAL NONSTOP ACTION (TNA) WRESTLING INVITES ALASKA GOVERNOR SARAH PALIN TO JOIN “THE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE”

TNA ANNOUNCES SPECIAL “SARAH PALIN CEREMONY” FOR DECEMBER 7 AT ITS “FINAL RESOLUTION” PAY-PER-VIEW IN ORLANDO. TNA AGREES TO DONATE $50,000 TO GOV. PALIN’S FAVORITE CHARITY OR ALASKAN YOUTH HOCKEY LEAGUE.

palin2.jpgTotal Nonstop Action (TNA) Wrestling has announced that it is formally inviting Alaska governor and former Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin to become an honorary member of “The Beautiful People,” the elite group of TNA Knockouts led by Angelina Love and Velvet Sky.

TNA officials said a “Sarah Palin Ceremony” is scheduled for December 7 at its “Final Resolution” pay-per-view as part of her “Honorary TNA Knockout” membership in The Beautiful People, and TNA President Dixie Carter will personally fly Gov. Palin and her husband, Todd, from their home in Anchorage to Orlando, Florida, for the December event.

TNA Wrestling will make the formal invitation to Gov. Palin Thursday, November 13, on “TNA iMPACT!” at 9 p.m. ET/PT on Spike.

TNA will present Gov. Palin with a $50,000 check at “Final Resolution” made out to the charity of her choice, or will make the donation to the youth hockey association in her native Wasilla, Alaska.

“Governor Palin has combined her experiences as a wife and mother with her political savvy to prove to America and the world that politics aren’t just a man’s game. I know firsthand what challenges you have to face when breaking a glass ceiling in a male-dominate profession,” Carter said.

The stars of TNA Wrestling can be seen for two hours each and every Thursday night on “TNA iMPACT!” (9 p.m. ET/PT, Spike). The TNA roster features Olympic Gold Medalist Kurt Angle, TNA World Heavyweight Champion Sting, Mick Foley, Kevin Nash, Booker T, Scott Steiner, Jeff Jarrett, Christian Cage, AJ Styles and Samoa Joe, among others.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:11 AM 
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I resisted the "anyone but Bush" mentality -- not because I wanted another Bush, but because I remain wary of the knee-jerk kind of reactions that brought us the Patriot Act. Look before we leap, folks. You take more than just yourself down with you.

On the heavily commented list from Krby: I'm sorry, but I believe idealism is the only thing that shines through consistently in this list. 1-4 directly contravene 8, and some would argue that the conflict between 5 and 7 is the clash that will define our generation. I find your "translation" of 9 insultingly slanted, unnecessarily so for a demonstrative list. 10 should be self-evident, and 11 probably hasn't ever happened before.

Obama initially caught my attention because his record indicated to me that he was the closest to incorruptible of any presidential candidate in the history of this country. I can't say with surety that success in this administration will save the country, but I fear that a lack of it can screw us permanently.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:18 AM 
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It's not that we would all be so unsightful as to allow things like the Patriot Act to slip through merely out of the fact that people are suggesting "Anyone but Bush". The mentality is only stating that, basically, when someone is SO bad there are few directions to go except up - not that we need be so ignorant as to pick another bad egg, or worse.

I'm sure some of those people out of the batch were dumb, but I don't really see anything wrong with that mentality in the sense that you would simply leap blindly into the unknown. I mean, it's obviously hyperbole since we aren't picking "anyone anyone", but it's used to emphasize an important point with regard to picking the lesser of two evils. More applicable to the 2004 campaign, obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:36 AM 
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It's a failure of our political process that we have to make choices like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring Success
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:39 AM 
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Quote:
Having said that... how will you measure success in this administration?


Interestingly enough, Obama gave himself a checklist on this very topic:

Quote:
When voters look at your Administration two years from now, in the off-year election, how will they know whether you're succeeding?
I think there are a couple of benchmarks we've set for ourselves during the course of this campaign. On [domestic] policy, have we helped this economy recover from what is the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression? Have we instituted financial regulations and rules of the road that assure this kind of crisis doesn't occur again? Have we created jobs that pay well and allow families to support themselves? Have we made significant progress on reducing the cost of health care and expanding coverage? Have we begun what will probably be a decade-long project to shift America to a new energy economy? Have we begun what may be an even longer project of revitalizing our public-school systems so we can compete in the 21st century? That's on the domestic front.

On foreign policy, have we closed down Guantánamo in a responsible way, put a clear end to torture and restored a balance between the demands of our security and our Constitution? Have we rebuilt alliances around the world effectively? Have I drawn down U.S. troops out of Iraq, and have we strengthened our approach in Afghanistan — not just militarily but also diplomatically and in terms of development? And have we been able to reinvigorate international institutions to deal with transnational threats, like climate change, that we can't solve on our own?

And outside of specific policy measures, two years from now, I want the American people to be able to say, "Government's not perfect; there are some things Obama does that get on my nerves. But you know what? I feel like the government's working for me. I feel like it's accountable. I feel like it's transparent. I feel that I am well informed about what government actions are being taken. I feel that this is a President and an Administration that admits when it makes mistakes and adapts itself to new information, that believes in making decisions based on facts and on science as opposed to what is politically expedient." Those are some of the intangibles that I hope people two years from now can claim.


http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/ ... 69,00.html

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