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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:47 PM 
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Ben Smith @ Politico:
Quote:
At first blush, Panetta does indeed look like any-port-in-a-storm selection. Obama's apparent first choice was John Brennan, a former CIA official who had called for reforming the agency, but who had also worked on the Bush Administration's controversial interrogation programs and ran afoul of Obama's need to show he is making a sharp break from Bush on the torture issue.

The choice drew criticism from some surprising sources-like Obama's former Democratic Senate colleagues, Dianne Feinstein and Jay Rockefeller, who dourly noted Panetta's lack of background at the agency.

Quote:
On Monday, Obama announced the appointment of a leading anti-torture lawyer, Dawn Johnsen, to head his Office of Legal Council, and later in the day word of Panetta's impending nomination leaked.

I first heard this line of thought from Ezra Klein, but Ben Smith is on the same tract.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:00 PM 
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I didn't say anything about good, Sir. I just think torture accountability may be what the appointment is about(if it goes thru), and it may be why Sen. Feinstein is upset/left out of the loop.

He comes into the CIA with zero ties to torture policy, and thus doesn't have fear of what we may learn. (Sen. Feinstein/Sen. Rockefeller might though). Panetta has also come out strong against torture in the past. Obviously I'm just a schmuck who only knows what he reads and hears from the chattering pundit class, but that's the version I find myself leaning towards.
You're kinda sorta insinuating that an insider who was against torture cannot be found, but is that really the case?

Second, you use the words accountability but I think you mean reform. If accountability is desired, who runs the CIA has nothing to do with prosecution of past crimes or deeds. That can be done outside the agency by the justice department. I don't see the head of the CIA running through the corridors at Langley, looking for people who were "in on it".

Speaking out against torture is easy if you're a Democrat. But the man has no credentials for either leading the CIA or for reforming its interrogation policies.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:18 PM 
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Good thing you're not running the show around here, Jox. We'd all be so terribly fucked. Haha.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:48 PM 
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joxur wrote:
You're kinda sorta insinuating that an insider who was against torture cannot be found, but is that really the case?

I don't know where you get that from, but considering your ability to jump to conclusions, I shouldn't be surprised.
joxur wrote:
Second, you use the words accountability but I think you mean reform. If accountability is desired, who runs the CIA has nothing to do with prosecution of past crimes or deeds. That can be done outside the agency by the justice department. I don't see the head of the CIA running through the corridors at Langley, looking for people who were "in on it".

FYI, I mean accountability.

I don't see that either, but obviously Panetta is going to be a conduit of information about what possible crimes were/are going on at the CIA and he won't be tied down by fear of being entangled in the ensuing revelations. Yes prosecution would be done by the Justice Dept, but how are they going find out about what the CIA is doing/has done w/o the CIA? A friendly guy at the top requiring people to cooperate is going to make that process smoother, period.

I haven't made any judgements on the quality of the pick, despite your efforts to attribute one to me, I'm just speculating on a possible why.

By all accounts there are people chomping at the bit to spill the beans on a number of things, wiretapping, torture, and God knows what else.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:40 AM 
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You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor... and would have different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:01 AM 
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Bovinity Divinity wrote:
You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor... and would have different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO.


If I had a million dollars, I'd dump it into this idea.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:22 AM 
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It's official, Panetta is Obama's pick for CIA Chief:
Quote:
"We must adhere to our values as diligently as we protect our safety with no exceptions," Obama said.

Obama picked retired Adm. Dennis Blair as the national intelligence director and Leon Panetta to head the CIA.

He called them "public servants with unquestioned integrity, broad experience, and strong managers with the core pragmatism that we need in dangerous times."

Obama said he has given the men the clear charge to restore the United States' record on human rights.

"I was clear throughout this campaign and was clear throughout this transition that under my administration the United States does not torture. We will abide by the Geneva Conventions. We will uphold our highest ideals," he said.

Clearly preposterous for me to see this through the lens of torture and accountability. Thanks for calling me out on that one Jox.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:46 AM 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 AM 
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Panetta was part of the Clinton administration that put additional barriers between the FBI, CIA, and other intelligence gathering agencies which made the uncovering of the 911 plot that much more difficult.


Barriers between intelligence agencies have been in place since Nixon and Watergate, and it's not as if there wasn't good reason for it. Perhaps the Clinton admin helped to reinforce those barriers a bit, but it's hardly as if those additional measures were enough to push the 9/11 attacks into the spotlight. Possible, but highly unlikely because the barriers still would have existed in large part.

It's good to have those barriers to an extent because you prevent too much government control. Having the people indiscriminately ganged up upon by two linked agencies is nearly something you would see out of authoritarianism, and we saw some of that during the Nixon administration.

That being said, I think we can have both good intelligence services that are capable of hooking up together to recognize serious threats like 9/11, while also protecting the people from the government itself. It still requires a balance between the two, and Panetta putting up those "additional barriers" reinforces that good ideology.

If you want big government, that's your prerogative.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:57 AM 
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I'd also throw in that I'm a bit skeptical about Panetta as a whole, and I'm not quite convinced he has the background to be the CIA chief. Still, I'm not quite such a rabid drooling anti-Obama bandwagoner as Joxur to suggest that this is some incredibly serious problem with the Obama admin's lineup. But, it raises concerns of cronyism(not in the sense of Obama having serious links with Panetta, but in order to sort of... "pay off" the other Democrats that want to see the Clinton team get in again).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:48 AM 
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The Obama Administration in pictures.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:54 PM 
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IS THIS WHERE I CAST MY VOTE FOR THE "SURCAM IS A DOUCHEBAG" OPTION?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:39 PM 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:38 PM 
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crymorefatty wrote:
IS THIS WHERE I CAST MY VOTE FOR THE "SURCAM IS A DOUCHEBAG" OPTION?

Who the fuck is this wanker?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:14 PM 
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Karthun wrote:
But conservatives are right wing nutjobs.


Are not, don't get conservatives and republican mixed up.
Republican = If you go to church love to spend money, think that people who do not think your way are bad. Basically the Republicans of the day are Democrats with an R next to there name on the news

Conservatives = For small government and believe fully in capitalization

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:30 PM 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:45 AM 
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Are not, don't get conservatives and republican mixed up.
Which one hates fags and thinks a cellular glob is gods blessing and should never be destroyed no matter what? - least not till they get older and decide to be Muslim

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:36 PM 
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DraagunSoulstealer wrote:
Quote:
Are not, don't get conservatives and republican mixed up.
Which one hates fags and thinks a cellular glob is gods blessing and should never be destroyed no matter what? - least not till they get older and decide to be Muslim



Those ate fundies, and you will find them on both sides (look in black Christian churches too...)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:29 AM 
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SurcamStances wrote:
I didn't say anything about good, Sir. I just think torture accountability may be what the appointment is about(if it goes thru), and it may be why Sen. Feinstein is upset/left out of the loop.


Panetta Open to Tougher Methods in Some C.I.A. Interrogation
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/us/po ... .html?_r=1


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:34 AM 
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IS THIS WHERE I CAST MY VOTE FOR THE "SURCAM IS A DOUCHEBAG" OPTION?


http://madpwnage.net/images/diaf.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:30 PM 
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Sen. Judd Gregg withdraws Commerce nomination:
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I want to thank the President for nominating me to serve in his Cabinet as Secretary of Commerce. This was a great honor, and I had felt that I could bring some views and ideas that would assist him in governing during this difficult time. I especially admire his willingness to reach across the aisle.

However, it has become apparent during this process that this will not work for me as I have found that on issues such as the stimulus package and the Census there are irresolvable conflicts for me. Prior to accepting this post, we had discussed these and other potential differences, but unfortunately we did not adequately focus on these concerns. We are functioning from a different set of views on many critical items of policy.

Obviously the President requires a team that is fully supportive of all his initiatives.

I greatly admire President Obama and know our country will benefit from his leadership, but at this time I must withdraw my name from consideration for this position.

As we move forward, I expect there will be many issues and initiatives where I can and will work to assure the success of the President's proposals. This will certainly be a goal of mine.

Kathy and I also want to specifically thank Governor Lynch and Bonnie Newman for their friendship and assistance during this period. In addition we wish to thank all the people, especially in New Hampshire, who have been so kind and generous in their supportive comments.

As a further matter of clarification, nothing about the vetting process played any role in this decision. I will continue to represent the people of New Hampshire in the United States Senate.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:39 PM 
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I'm hopeful that this move will shine some light on the disturbing idea of moving the Census to the white house instead of the commerce department. I wonder how many of you even knew about that before this story broke. So sad.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:49 AM 
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This argument about the census isn't new. It arose 10 years ago when most agreed that the last census had very large undercounted populations. THe difficulty is in how to fix the undercounting and to a certain extent why there was undercounting.

The Democrats want to use statistical models to project population in areas considered to have been undercounted. They have deemed large urban centers to be the areas that went undercounted.

The Republicans, iirc, want the census to still be the traditional headcount with no modelling and assumption.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:17 AM 
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See the West Wing espisode: "Mr. Willis of Ohio"

Man I love that show. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:17 AM 
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Nonono, this is hot new info that only Joxur had access to, as usual.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:21 AM 
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I've been working for the Commerce department for 18 years. (NOAA). I'm really enjoying how they keep referring to Commerce as a second class cabinet.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:23 AM 
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http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/fe ... us-debate/

Moving the census to a political body like the white house and out of the hands of commerce professionals is a bad idea. Go read up on gerrymandering, bov, and then come back and we'll talk.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:31 AM 
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Nobody said otherwise.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:34 AM 
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Quote:
Moving the census to a political body like the white house and out of the hands of commerce professionals is a bad idea. Go read up on gerrymandering, bov, and then come back and we'll talk.


Quote:
Nobody said otherwise.


Exactly...but we gotta let Jox believe he's got the secret inside info.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:38 AM 
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joxur is better and smarter than all of us. Learn to cope with it like I have.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:45 AM 
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He's good enough, he's smart enough, and doggone it, people like him.

PS: <3 Surcam. You knows I loves joo.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:57 AM 
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Or we could just stop doing the census.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:02 AM 
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joxur wrote:
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/13/gregg-withdrawal-foreshadows-census-debate/

Moving the census to a political body like the white house and out of the hands of commerce professionals is a bad idea. Go read up on gerrymandering, bov, and then come back and we'll talk.

Having read up on the situation, I can honestly say that the whole damned thing is a crock of crap. The White House never said "we're taking over this." They said they'd be supervising, which according to a number of articles has been standard for every administration for the past 50 years. They've always overseen the census and provided guidance. So for the GOP to pretend like this is the White House trying some power grab is ridiculous, and it's a bunch of asshole politicians trying to claim something that they know isn't true. This isn't to say that the Democrats are without blame for this particular mess, since a bunch of idiot know-nothings were acting like the announcement that the White House would be overseeing the census was this big coup.

Retards on both sides, I swear.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:04 AM 
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Orme, a Singing Bard wrote:
Or we could just stop doing the census.

It's required by the Constitution. And if you think these people act like complete morons over who is running it, can you imagine how large a shit they'd have if someone suggested doing away with it?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:24 AM 
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I think Obama sneezed a few days ago.

Where's Joxur's link suggesting that it was a deliberate attempt to give the Republican Senators he was shaking hands with a cold in order to try and prevent them from voting?

I still think this is pretty funny. Joxur spends his days trotting about the internet in search of anything to post here about Obama, meanwhile I think most of us have learned to nod slowly in response and pat him on the head.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:44 PM 
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Venen wrote:
I think Obama sneezed a few days ago.

Where's Joxur's link suggesting that it was a deliberate attempt to give the Republican Senators he was shaking hands with a cold in order to try and prevent them from voting?


Can you prove that Obama did not do that deliberately?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:53 AM 
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I know we're all totally desensitized to it, but hey. For the sake of completeness.

Obama's Trade Pick Owes IRS $10,000
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:19 PM 
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Wow, that's just embarassing.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:50 AM 
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I must say one person in particular that is starting to piss me off in the administration is Eric Holder. How can he say so many dumb things in such a short span of time?

Actually, him and Robert Gibbs. Quite possibly one of the worst press secretaries I've seen, and that includes the Bush secretaries. He is not even close to suited for the job, especially since he takes about 5 minutes to articulate a single sentence. Seems dumb, and is pretty much a partisan hack that got the position because he was significant in Obama's campaign. Get that man outta there.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:12 AM 
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No one could be worse than McClellan.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:17 PM 
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I thought about him, but it's pretty close. Per Colbert, he could say nothing like nobody else. But one thing I can give McClellan is that he was articulate, and was able to spew out a sentence or two in less than a few minutes. And he actually seemed to "fit" a little more behind than podium than Gibbs does. The thing about McClellan was that he waffled all over the room with his spinning, but he was able to do it quickly right off the top of his head. Half the time, Gibbs just looks like a train wreck up there not having any idea what to say next.

We'll give him some additional time for practice, but it's not looking good so far.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:34 PM 
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Per Colbert, lol


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:21 AM 
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Along those lines.. the visit by Gordon Brown was very weird. No press conference, no publicity, nothing.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/iain_marti ... e#comments

Where's Karthun when you need him to explain the concepts of soft power.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:42 AM 
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I gotta stop reading the news. This shit is driving me nuts.

EXCLUSIVE: Big donors dominate Obama panel
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... ory-board/

Quote:
President Obama's newly named Economic Recovery Advisory Board, the real-world Americans being asked to help solve the nation's financial crisis, includes a union executive who took the Fifth in a federal probe, a billionaire whose failed bank pioneered the subprime mortgage market, and deep-pocket donors who gave or gathered nearly $1.2 million for the president's campaign.

In all, 11 of the 16 board members donated or raised money for Democrats in the last election, according to a Washington Times review of campaign finance records. They include the president and chief operating officer of the American arm of UBS Investment Bank, the Swiss-based bank now at the center of a widening tax evasion probe by the Justice Department and the Internal Revenue Service.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:44 AM 
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I am bothered by that too (please believe me!), but I also wonder-- who could he have gotten? In other words, what mortgage bank executives out there are *not* tainted by the sub-prime crisis? Is it your intended implication that we should have people on this committee that aren't familiar with the industry?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:07 AM 
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Is this guy also the best we can do?

Foreign ties of nominee questioned
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/ma ... e-queried/

Quote:
An independent inspector general will look into the foreign financial ties of Chas W. Freeman Jr., the Obama administration's pick to serve as chairman of the group that prepares the U.S. intelligence community's most sensitive assessments, according to three congressional aides.


I see the strategy now.

"Lobbyists bad" > Hire lobbyists > "It's the best we can do"
"Pork bad" > Pass bill with 8500 earmarks > "It's last year's business, it's the best we can do"
"Banks got us into this" > appoint them to committees > "It's the best we can do"
"Special interests bad" > reward donors with jobs and funding > "It's the best we can do"

Don't blame us, we're in a depression! We'll get to work on that hopenchange as soon as we're out of this fix!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:10 AM 
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I figured I would be the wrong one to ask. I wasn't trying to defend it-- it was an honest question.

Let me know if you wish to answer it without being snide. I understand if you are unable.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:32 AM 
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It's a rhetorical question, that neither of us can answer. What should my answer be?

Do you take a general who lost a war due to gross incompetence and put him on a committee designed to win the next war?


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There are banks and companies that are not on the verge of failing. There are people that are out there making money. It just screams to me that the administration is not looking for answers; they have the answers they want, they put the people in a "committee" to agree with or to propose the solutions that this administration already wants.

I am not saying that this is anything new, it has always been done that way. I am saying that if someone wants solutions to problems most of the time you need to involve people that don't already agree with you 100%


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:41 PM 
Shelf is CAMPED!!
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well taking some contrary action is better than tax cutting everyone to zero

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:17 PM 
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People believed when he said he would be associated with no lobbyists? lol. Hardly a sticking point for anyone that I know, a person goes to Washington and gets associated with lobbyists WHOAAA.

Everyone knew from the getgo it was a promise he had no way of keeping. Not even in the most idealistic world.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:49 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
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Today:
Gupta withdraws from surgeon general.
Geithner pick for deputy secretary withdraws.

Chas Freeman for head of the NIC will withdraw soon.

Ron Kirk may withdraw with his tax problems, that remains to be seen.

Crazy...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:39 PM 
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My question is, are his picks just that bad that most of them are having to withdraw? Or is the bar being set too high? Or what?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:31 PM 
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it's completely all over the place...

some were for tax reasons or some other scandal (daschle, killefer, richardson, kirk, freeman). some just didn't want the job apparently (gupta, treasury #2). it's just all over the place.

in terms of the treasury and others responsible for fixing the economy - would you want that job? it doesn't pay well and it's pretty much a no-win situation.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:37 AM 
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My favorite new nominee is Sebelius. She made a complete mess in Kansas and is now walking away from a budget that couldn't even refund people's overpayments on their taxes and SHE is going to be at HHS, where Obama is about to dump a bunch of borrowed money?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:46 AM 
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Gupta doesn't want the job because he doesn't want to become politicized. Completely understandable given his current background at CNN, and I'm guessing he gets paid there more too =p But he's more or less portrayed himself as mister middle ground unbiased(especially after the Michael Moore debacle), and I doubt he wants to break with that.

I'd tend to say that the bar is simply being set too high. Bush had a number of problems with a few different appointees as well, and several were more serious than simple tax problems(The Police chief guy from NY as homeland secretary had a few different issues, and the choice for supreme court, cant remember name had NO experience whatsoever).

Nothing new really. Tends to happen more frequently when an administration is just getting started from scratch =) We got a little lucky with Clinton's, frankly.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:02 AM 
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Such a wonderful vetting process. Who would have thought with a person that has so much experience that they would be having these issues.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:59 AM 
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And it looks like we have the slogan for this administration:

"never let a good crisis go to waste"

That has been spouted by a few of his top people, Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, and Sec. State Hillary Clinton among them.

We are going to have four years of one crisis after another, panic and fear, until Obama decides that he has fixed the problem.

I thought the politics of fear was over? Every time someone from this administration opens their mouth, or reads a teleprompter, sounds like they saying "The End is Nigh!"


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:09 AM 
I schooled the old school.
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ooooookaaaaayyyyy


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:56 PM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
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Quote:
And it looks like we have the slogan for this administration:

"never let a good crisis go to waste"

That has been spouted by a few of his top people, Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, and Sec. State Hillary Clinton among them.


Tongue-in-cheek comes to mind, here. I wouldn't be so hasty to assume they were being serious.


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