"And on this issue of the Shia in Iraq, I think there's been a certain amount of, frankly, Terry, a kind of pop sociology in America that, you know, somehow the Shia can't get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. There's almost no evidence of that at all. Iraq's always been very secular."

Keep comparing the war in Iraq to Vietnam. It makes you look teh smartest!

I honestly think pulling out of Iraq is the thing to do, and the sooner we do it the better. I don't want our soldiers over there playing police and protecting their elections.

We need to get back to hunting down terrorists and we need to get our troops back home for a much needed break.

The Iraqis will either step up to the plate and do the job themselves or they wont. It's really that simple. We can't stay there forever and our continued presence is clearly fueling the insurgency and the influx of foreign fighters. This whole policing operation isn't exactly falling into the category of defending our interests both home and abroad.

Many of the things Murtha has been saying are true. Whenever I think about what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can't help hearing Bush in his campaign against Gore saying that we shouldn't be nation building. I can't believe the Democrats aren't playing this clip every chance they get. It's similar to the read my lips

Am I really reading that some of you compare Iraq, where we successfully ousted an oppressive dictator to Viet Nam where we failed to oust anything?

What we are doing in Iraq is tame in comparison to World history. It also is one of the most complete successes of a transformation to democracy ever.

The result of U.S. meddling in Iraq is a burgeoning alliance between Iran and Iraq, a growing civil war (this time, with atrocities being performed by the Shiites on the Sunnis), and a serious loss of U.S. power and influence as China and Russia continue friendly relations with the Arab governments. (Putin calling Russia "the best friend" that the Arabs have today.)

Let's also talk about the massive deficits and the war as a huge distraction from China's brilliant financial, political and covert strategies bringing China closer every day to total domination of the U.S.

Yes, Saddam = bad as far as the Iraqis were concerned, but he was a buffer that maintained the balance in the Middle East and possibly the world. That's gone now, and we get to live with what we let out of Pandora's Box.

I don't see how, the democrats are winning back a majority in anything with that idiot Dean spending all their cash before the actual election.

No kool-aid here man. I've been unhappy with many things in the GOP and I'm also hoping to see Hillary run in '08, to point that I've been a registered democrat for the last 6 months so I can vote for her in the primary. California, with all its problems, is still the greatest state and economy in the union. Point to some specific races, if you can, and show me where the democrats are going to making gains. I follow politics and it just isn’t happening, but it should be. The democrats have an unpopular president, GOP corruption scandals, CIA agent leaks and they probably will still be in the minority. One of the main reasons is the mismanagement of funds by Dean, another is they’ve moved the party so far to the left.

I would also like to point out, that Bush's reasoning for invading Iraq has been pretty much totally vindicated. Saddam WAS seeking WMDs, Saddam WAS colluding with terrorist organizations including Al Qaeda, and Saddam did indeed have all the infrastructure necessary to immediatly resume WMD production at short notice. The only thing missing were large quantities of actual usable WMDs, we only found a few. The rest were in my opinion either destroyed or covertly shipped out of the country, both entirely plausible scenarios.

It would be pretty ironic if, of the 3 "axis of evil" nations, we allowed two to obtain nuclear weapons (North Korea is already there) while the only one we did anythign about was the furthest from achieving it.

I can tell you 100% for a FACT, that any administration will skew intelligence resources to fit their policies. But after working on the inside for many years, and still having friends on the inside, I can tell you it's never been quite as serious (not since LBJ at least) as it was with Bush and the pre-war intel push. They could take 10 reports and stuff them for the 1 that partially supported a claim they wished to make.

The best part? They maintained plausable deniability. They do this by the president stating his intended goals, and the intelligence committees (No, not the oversight ) will make sure the intel meets those goals. So let me amend this statement for you:

Bush looked us in the eye and told the world what he could get away with stating was the truth.

Politics today really saddens me. I mean, why can't most Americans see past what team they're rooting for?

I recall a post not too long back by Tyral about how it's like a sport for us. And he is so right (rare as it may be ) And I find myself falling into the same sort of thing. I'm a liberal, and I find myself rooting for the Democrats(even though I think they're pussies and couldn't see myself as signing up as one), but I like to think that I see facts as facts. For example, while I don't think the Lewinsky deal by itself was that big of deal politically, I do think the fact that Clinton committed perjury was a big deal, and honestly he should have been impeached for it. I mean, I hate to say it but it's true. No one should be above the law.

And now we have conservatives agreeing with the idea that the filibuster should be done away with. Agreeing that Rove should get a fucking medal for this current scandal. Agreeing with the ever changing reasons for war with Iraq. It's absolutely ridiculous. I listen to these spinsters on television and it makes me sick. Both sides.
I can't speak on whether or not it's always been this way, because I only began paying attention during the whole Clinton impeachment.

It seems to me that we have serious issues that we need to be discussing candidly and with rationality. But we can't, because we're too busy rooting for our team. Social security, the war on terrorism, our huge deficits, the rise of China, North Korea etc etc are all serious matters that need to be dealt in intelligent and rational ways. But what sways our vote? Gay marriage, prayers in school, blah fucking blah. Fuck that, my pockets sway my vote. The safety of me and mine sways my vote. And safety isn't all about what we attack, it's also about what we do that causes others to attack us and our success in diplomacy. Can we say with a rational mind that we're always right? Always just? Fair? Can we say that, while it doesn't at all justify terrorism, Islamic terrorists don't have a legiitimate grievance with us?

I miss the days when I felt like America had the moral high ground. When I felt like America was about the free and the brave, the right and the just. And those days may have never been true, because I felt that way before I paid attention.

And now we're faced with this Islamic terrorist threat, and are we really asking ourselves why they hate us? Is it really because they hate our democracy? The way we live? Because that's what my President tells me. But I don't believe that. I don't believe that young people are blowing themselves up because I can vote, because I can live where I want, how I want. We Americans need to take the moral high ground back, and stop disregarding it so we can root for our team.

Rove is a fucking hack. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. He has a history out there: Fired by Bush Sr., dirty tricks galore, those awful tactis used against McCain. Why is this hack playing such a huge role in this administration? The Puppetmaster Myth

Why are you people so ready to defend him when it is clear he had a role in outing this CIA agent. Is it a huge threat to our national security? No, probably not in the grand scheme of things. But that doesn't change the fact that he was outing Mrs. Wilson for political gain. Regardless of whether or not he can claim he didn't know to avoid prosecution. Which is bullshit in my personal opinion.

Woo hoo, nothing from me!

I miss the days when I felt like America had the moral high ground. When I felt like America was about the free and the brave, the right and the just. And those days may have never been true, because I felt that way before I paid attention.

And now we're faced with this Islamic terrorist threat, and are we really asking ourselves why they hate us? Is it really because they hate our democracy? The way we live? Because that's what my President tells me. But I don't believe that.

Even until March of 1906, Mark Twain reported on an incident in which U.S. troops massacred 900 Muslim Filipinos where they were trapped in a volcanic crater and fired upon for four days. One girl survived. More was written by Twain until 1908, but the documentation was not available.

"I thought we should act as their protector -- not try to get them under our heel.... But now -- why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater."

Ellis G. Davis, Company A, 20th Kansas:
"They will never surrender until their whole race is exterminated. They are fighting for a good cause, and the Americans should be the last of all nations to transgress upon such rights. Their independence is dearer to them than life, as ours was in years gone by, and is today."

"We bombarded a place called Malabon, and then we went in and killed every native we met, men, women, and children. It was a dreadful sight, the killing of the poor creatures. The natives captured some of the Americans and literally hacked them to pieces, so we got orders to spare no one."

The expert on unwinnable, hopeless war situations, no less than the venerable Henry Kissinger himself has said military victory in Iraq is impossible.

On Sept. 11, 1973, the four branches of Chile's armed forces overthrew the government of Salvador Allende in a violent coup. Allende died in fighting in the presidential palace and the military junta assumed power, led by Army Commander in Chief Augusto Pinochet Ugarte. The coup ended Chile's long tradition of constitutional government and ushered in 17 years of military rule.

Sunni or later the Shi'ite hits the fan.

I always enjoyed Alad's OFB stories.

Samuel Clements wrote about the injustice of actions in the Phillipines long before the US supported Ferdinand Marcos. News reports at the time about a genocidal massacre of Moros appalled Mr. Clements.

Alad got sand in his pussy about ezboard security. I don't think he knows we've stopped using ezboard or else he'd be here.

Yeah, I bet this is the same fable that had General Blackjack Pershing taking Moro prisoners lining them up to be shot but before that happened he had his men bring in a couple of pigs which they slaughtered in front of the prisoners. He then had his men dip their bullets in the pig's blood and after he shot them he had them buried with the pigs guts spread on top of their bodies.

It never happened not sure if Clements was the one who wrote about it or not but a whole shitlaod of what went on during the Phillipine insurrection was nonsense made up by the yellow press of the time.

Jolo, 1 - 24 May 1905 and 6 - 8 March 1906 and 11 - 15 June 1913. In May 1905, March 1906, and June 1913, Regulars had to cope with disorders too extensive to be handled by the local constabulary and Philippine Scouts on the island of Jolo, a Moro stronghold. During May 1905 Pala and some of his followers were killed; the remainder, gathered in a volcanic crater, surrendered to American forces. On March 6, 7, and 8, 1906 the battle of Bud Dajo was fought to a successful conclusion by Regulars and in mid-June 1913 Moros at Bagsac were whipped.

It never happened not sure if Clements was the one who wrote about it or not but a whole shitlaod of what went on during the Phillipine insurrection was nonsense made up by the yellow press of the time

First off I never said that the defeat of the Moro was BS and never happened , what I was referring too was that I can't tell you for sure if Clements ever wrote about the Pershing incident which happened to deal with the Moro. That is where I make the comment it never happened. The Pershing Incident never happened not the defeat of the Moro. Hopefully that clears it up for you.

Yeah, I bet this is the same fable that had General Blackjack Pershing taking Moro prisoners lining them up to be shot...