Figured I would start a new thread to just discuss just the debate. Personally I can't wait. I'd love to see Obama link the current economic crisis to Iraq and then link McCain to our continued presence there. It would be a knock out blow if he could pull that off but very risky if he tries and it backfires. Anything that you guys are hoping to see settled tonight?

I'd like Obama to get out in front of the McCain lies about his "taxing the middle class" -- that'd be a great counter because it'd show that McCain is willing to lie and do anything he can to not lose a 3rd time in a row for the Presidency, and that he's running the dirtiest campaign in recent history.

I'm really hoping to be able to find someplace online with the WHOLE debate, not just highlights.

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BBC America if you get it there said they were going to air the entire debate and have no spin commentary on it from a world perspective, they're trying to get US viewers to tune in. Which I might do since I really don't want to listen to news analysis from any station I can think of offhand, and I am interested to see how people outside the system view it.

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MSNBC here! I want to see what a major event will be like w/o Olbermann.

Here's an email I got from Free Press, figured some people might be interested (doubt I'll bother):

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Interesting idea. Neat e-mail.

25 minutes until McCain hands the Presidency to Obama!

McCain has dominated the lower expectations game. I fear the bar has been set too low for him a la Bush.

The lowered expectations game just disgusts me. These guys should be trying their hardest to really impress us, not to trick us into being impressed.

One question. Where's his flag pin? How can you love America if you aren't wearing a flag pin?!

Hahah...

Obama has been strong. McCain has been strong too, but I think the edge has gone to Obama because he's caught McCain in a few falsities, whereas McCain hasn't been able to catch him in any. (Yet, if there are any.)

I think Obama is wearing one and McCain isn't which is lulz.

LIVE stream:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7632311.stm

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McCain is winning this debate at this point. Hands down. I am in shock, I fully expected this to be a coronation for Obama. He looks unprepared to deal with foreign policy.

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How are WE responsible to rebuild the Georgian economy, but we are need to get out of Iraq as soon as possible (14 months) ?

I may actually be changing my vote because of this debate. Wow.. just wow.

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McCain filibustering away these last few moments. Hope Obama gets the last word.

AND THERE is the big POW drop!

I think McCain just owned Obama. Obama better get to flinging the shit or he is going to look sucky.

I think Obama needs to attack Mccain more.

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I must have watched a different debate. I felt that Obama did much better than McCain.

Yeah, I think Obama cleared the air and came out on top.

Love how McCain came out and gave his stump speech. If you think that his stump speech about bear dna is owning in a debate...well that is just special.

It really seemed fairly even to me, I'd call it a draw. Personally, I'm still willing to take my chances with Obama/Biden as it appears to be safer ticket.

Yeah, I heard a lot of recycled catchphrases and buzzwords. Some snarky comments (pardon the pun) that were kind of lame too.

I'm extremely sad that the best site/easiest site I found for a live stream was BBC.

That really depresses me. That being said, BBC's stream was the best live stream I've ever seen yet. No lag at all.

As to the debate, I thought both did well. I thought McCain did better than expected but it was due largely to the low expectations bar. I think people on both sides will be proclaiming their candidate as 'teh winnar' which is also depressing in that I'd simply like to see both candidates clearly answer the issues more than try to 'win' the question.

And that being said, I felt Obama answered questions overall more clearly and outlined his plans far better. Which was a surprise since many criticisms have been that he's too vague. McCain instead was often vague or overly broad in his answers. YMMV obviously, I'd expect McCain supporters to feel almost the opposite probably for similar reasons.

I don't think there was clear 'OMG SOANDSO COMPLETELY WTFPWNZERED IT', which had to be a fear on the McCain side. If I were on McCain's team I'd consider a win anything he walks away from mostly holding his own...which he did.

And I think Obama did some important stuff which was he's come off as too soft previously and he hammered at McCain. I'm sure some people wanted to see that. I really didn't, but I got what I wanted to see which were some specific answers to current issues.

I meant to count how many times McCain would mention being a POW, but he didn't beat that drum too much so it didn't stick out. It stuck out when he mentioned it and at this point I just kinda cringe at it, but he was MUCH more lowkey about it...which is a smart move.

But for me, the only way McCain could win my vote at this point would be to do shit he simply wouldn't do. He'd have to drop Palin like a rock, repudate all the bullshit he's embraced the last two years, and return back to his old positions and clean house completely of the Bush Co. people he's using now. Won't happen but if it did, he'd stand a chance of winning my vote.

So the debates aren't really aimed at people like me who've made a decision and are only open to some extreme changes on either side to switch.

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Obamaniacs thought obama won

McCaininites thought McCain won

DUHHH

Both of them gave me a headache


I thought Obama did better, but I'm a Obama fan over McCain. I don't think McCain did a good job of trying to show Obama's inexperience with foreign policy. Making a big deal about pre-conditions before talks is just stupid on McCain's part.

The flag pin bit, VERY amusing.

It seemed to me like McCain had a mental list of things to attack Obama on, and brought them up whenever he could. Even if it was totally off subject. I don't remember watching a presidential debate where they answered the questions clearly either, so it's not that surprising. In regards to the mental list, it reminded me of the Beauty Queen gal who was trying to get a bunch of buzz words in about a question about Americans and maps.

I am a staunch Obama supporter, but I think McCain stayed on the attack and spent the vast majority of the time trying to belittle Obama and I think that will resonate with the undecided voter. I think the average american will eat that shit up and I am betting the polls will reflect it in the next few days.

People love to see these guys fight, and McCain brought it.. Obama looked like a guy curled up in the fetal position getting hammered.

How many times did McCain say "Obama doesn't understand"?

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I thought it was a great debate. I'm also calling it a draw, which is a win for Americans. I thought they both did a fine job of presenting their positions and making the case for their presidency.

About half as many times as Sen. Obama said that he agrees with Sen. McCain

That was one thing that struck me; Obama you are coming out as hope-change-new and many times in the debate he said he was in agreement with McCain.

He said he agreed on some points, but also had differences in some respects. (Talking about an overall general plan.)

I disagree with this idea that you can't agree with anything your opponent says. In order to run against someone for president there's no requirement you think every single thing that comes out of their mouth is wrong.

I think overall Obama successfully framed himself as 'big picture' while McCain could not get out of 'small focus' thinking.

Obama moved the economic debate away from 'earmarks earmarks earmarks', which, while are considerable, are a very small portion of what is wrong with our economy. McCain on the other hand had no recourse other then to resort to "but what about earmarks!!!"

Foreign policy was similar, McCain continually said, 'but yeah, I've been there and I know (more or less) how to pronounce their names!', while Obama focused on how America on the whole has to improve/repair its standing in the international community.

Solid by both and ultimately pretty boring. I don't think it'll move the needle either way.

The most troubling thing that I would be worried about if I were an Obama supporter is exactly what programs he will cut because of the bailout. He's acknowledged that he can't do all of his programs with the bailout looming... what programs is he going to cut? He failed pretty badly when that subject came up. First he says he'll end dependence on foreign oil (a LAUGHABLE concept) in 10 years, then he backed off that and said something to the effect that "well, we'll achieve that goal, but maybe we'll scale back certain parts of the plan".. but he's never said HOW HE'D DO IT in the first place.

Yeah, but what do you think about what McCain had to say? He was objectively weaker on that subject. Let's hear your thoughts.

The answers from both canidates really frustrated me on that one. The question was clear to outline some programs they would LIKE to do, but will not be able to afford due to the financial crisis. Both canidates took turns talking about things they would cut because they were wasteful. That just wasn't the question. Shame, I really wanted an answer to that one.

One candidate could look at the other, address them accordingly, and acknowledge when they made good points. One candidate could not even glance at his opponent through the whole debate.

Who then is going to better at 'reaching across the isle' or in the forum of international diplomacy?

I think it comes down to issues as simple as this when people look at who is more ready to lead our country.

I noticed that too. I'm not sure what that is an indication of, but I don't like it.

I didn't get to hear the whole thing, but I noticed Obama calling McCain by his first name quite often. John-this John-that, did McCain ever address Obama by his first name as well?

No, but you could tell he was calling him "boy" in his head.

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I didn't watch it, but I've been hearing and reading comments everywhere. I'm not sure how it all went down, I but I keep reading about McCain smirking at Obama and berating him. (??) If that actually happened, I think that would make Obama look a little better as a leader if he didn't lash back. i don't want a jackass in the big office; I want someone who is going to show class, dignity, and honor. People around the world judge America by our President's actions, not by our people or cities. I don't think the country needs someone leading us who is eager to act like a punk on a world stage.

And, I read here that McCain mentioned something about being a POW again. Neat. If being president was based on being a POW, he'd win hands down. Honestly, I could give a fuck if the guy was a POW when it comes to his ability to lead a nation. It is irrelevant, which I've stated before. Every time he mentions his being a POW, it seems like that Saturday Night Live skit with Jim Carey where he tells everyone, "I'll see you in hell!" He said it alllll the time and every successive time he said it the meaning lost more and more effect and became a common courtesy. "Hi, I'm John McCain. I was a POW. How ya doing?" OK...and? Seriously, focus on leadership. Focus on the economy. Focus on foreign relations. Focus on getting us the fuck out of the Middle East. Focus on AMERICA. I could give a fuck if you wre a Boy Scout, the lead of some gay rights group, or a fucking astronaut. How are you going to lead OUR nation? Certainly not locked in a cage with a few broken bones for a few years.

Not looking your opponent in the eye is a sign of weakness or submission. Based on animalistic nature, looking an opponent in the eyes is a challenge. By not looking Obama in the eye at all, I think McCain is either afraid of, or dismissive of, Obama...maybe both. McCain seems like a smug guy, so maybe it's more a dismissive thing. I dunno.

If Obama was calling McCain by his first name and and McCain wasn't calling Obama by his first name, that tells me that Obama is very comfortable dealing with an opponent, which is hugely desirable when dealing with foreign leaders. I think it shows that he can interact with important people on a personal and even playing field without trying to bully them or trying to act superior to them. This will help gain confidence and rapport with those he speaks with. He doesn't come off as pompus, which is a stigma people around the world see our leaders as being. It's a big reason why most of the world hates us. I think Obama's personality is more suited for bringing America back to a favorable light on the world stage.

I can assure you, everyone here in Europe is watching these two. Obama is favored 3-1 here because of the way he talks to people and becaues he wants to foster good international relations and not run around like an arrogant cowboy. This tells me that Obama is favored on a personal level when you remove bipartisan politics from the equation, which is something most Democrats and Republicans can't seem to look passed when they go to compare the two in a debate. They are biased from their political affiliation while people around the world see candidates for what they are and for how they act. Not that our president should be chosen based on world opinion, it just tells me that far more people in the world think Obama would make a better leader than McCain would. That has to count for something when it comes to foreign relations, which we are sorely hurting in right now.

I heard about half the debate on NPR while driving home last night, and then caught the end on TV when I got home.

My general impression was that neither candidate seemed to have an obvious upper hand. During the questions concerning how the $700 billion dollar bailout would affect their priorities for other parts of the budget, I was frustrated at how neither candidate would answer the question. I thought the moderator felt the same way; he asked the question four different ways, and never really got a direct answer.

And that, I think, is what I hate most about politics. Stick to your taglines, and fuck the questions. I'd like to see a debate where there was no time limit to the length, where if the question isn't answered directly, then the moderator can simply ask it again and get answers again. Do it over and over until you actually get a direct answer, regardless of how long it takes. Don't want to be there until 9 am the next morning? Answer the damn question.

Ahh, but I dream.

I did also notice when I got home how it seemed like Obama was very comfortable looking at his opponent, but McCain was always looking away. I don't think McCain is afraid of him; he certainly doesn't strike me as being someone who would be afraid. I think it was probably more of the distain / dismissive attitude rather than fear.

The bailout plan is wildly unpopular and political poison.

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I think the reason it looked that way, was because McCain was nervous, maybe he didn't do as much prep time as he would've because he 'suspended' his campaign, well if you believe he did anyway.

That question is a lot like playing chicken.

Neither wants (or even knows enough) to be the first to say for sure, "I'll cut this!" because it gives their opponent or opponents' supporters something to point at and attack.

Ultimately it was McCain that blinked first in that chicken game by talking about a "Spending Freeze". I think it was a pretty smart way to do so, because it sounds really bold and powerful, but Obama sort of pointed out why it's nothing but talk when he used early childhood education as an example of something that would be hit by a spending freeze.

Obama didn't want to give McCain any talking points. Not answering the question makes him look weak for the 2-3 days people are talking about this debate but stronger in the end for not giving McCain any ammo. Smart move imo.

I thought it was pretty even. A few things that troubled me:

~Obama talking about cutting the energy independence programs; they are one of the few programs that could possibly help us long-term.
~McCain stating that no government entitlement programs would be considered for cuts.
~ The Kissinger squabble. McCain was correct, Obama wrong; but both looked juvenile and neither very Presidential.

There was other stuff that bothered me but those were easily the top 3 that may affect my vote.

As I heard it, both were right and wrong, just on different details.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Kissinger was for meetings WITHOUT pre-conditions, but not at the Presidential level.

But...ultimately....who gives a fuck what Kissinger said? He's not running. I hate when candidates do that. "Oh this guy was popular, lemme drop his name a couple times and associate my platform with his name, kekekeke."

The debate was pretty even, and just about as boring as any I can remember. I had to fight to stay awake. Have no idea why I thought either candidate would actually answer questions. Guess that's not their idea of change.

Sarissa Candyangel

Heh. I thought it was pretty interesting, but I wasn't paying attention to words. I was watching body language and the two of them trying to keep their temper.

QFT

My bias going into this is obvious, but I do think Obama came out slightly ahead.

A few additional things I thought that made impressions:

1) McCain never looking at Obama. I actually didn't notice this, perhaps because I was standing in a room full of people for two hours watching the thing. But almost everyone I talked to about it afterwards mentioned it and took it as disdain. That doesn't necessarily address the issues, but it does make an impression on people. Negative for McCain.

2) Obama consciously looked into the camera to deliver some answers. That's a smart way of addressing the viewer. Instead of talking to the moderator, an opponent, or the hidden audience, you're reminded that you're the person the message is intended for. Positive for Obama.

3) Obama also directly addressed McCain. Only once during the entire debate did one candidate directly call out the other. He turned to McCain to directly refute him. It's clear, direct, and puts the other candidate on the spot. Positive for Obama.

However, I would have liked to see Obama tie the economy into more of his answers (not that McCain did, but I think that could've made him stronger). As someone mentioned, McCain had a list of attacks that he'd reuse whether or not it really applied to the question. That's a political tactic, to constantly repeat something so your audience remembers it. I would've liked Obama to do that same type of thing, except coming back to our economy instead of going on the attack.

I was also disappointed that Obama didn't go on the attack more often. IMO, he let McCain get away with a lot more than he should have. The one that stands out most is McCain's own example of budgetary "maverick-ness," the story of him interfering in a DoD spending bill. That's true. He did get involved and get a lower price. But the other side of that story is a bunch of jobs were lost at Boeing because the project fell through and where did those jobs and all the money end up? McCain's work ended up sending those jobs to Europe, as Airbus ended up with the contract. Again, a perfect opportunity to go back to the economy and call out a half-truth from McCain, but it wasn't used.

Ultimately, I think it was pretty even (and McCain did a fantastic job lowering expectations, even though he is the more aggressive debater), but looks like it'll be recorded as a minor win for Obama. He stood on the stage, went toe-to-toe with John McCain, and didn't get bloodied. The "he's not ready to lead" line doesn't have much life left in it.

Also, in regard to the bailout issue...

This is what pisses me off about politics. Right, if a politican is asked "How will this turn out?" or "What's the absolute best plan?", the most honest answer is probably, "No one really knows yet."

But in a recent McCain ad, they quoted some democratic leader as saying, "No one knows what to do." and used it to bash the democrats as not being fit to lead.

God I fucking hate politics. Why don't we get straight answers? Because we fucking buy into bullshit like that, where being honest rather than giving some doublespeak bullshit answer is punished.

The debate in 1 minute:

http://www.236.com/video/2008/watch_fir ... 1_9186.php

I had to chuckle.

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Love that clip Rugen.