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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:24 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Nice to know that you exist Skycrasher.

I posted my views because Leo asked, NOT to have them debated.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:34 PM 
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I'm not debating, I'm just telling you that they're straight-up fucked. =)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:56 PM 
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Which point was that exactly?

I realize the point on Iraq was a bit far-fetched. However, I believe that most people around the world -- and most world leaders -- have an interest in a stable Iraq.

Currently -- and correctly, I fully believe, don't get me wrong -- the majority opinion is that our presence is Iraq promotes violence. As troops are scaled back, we expect the Iraqis to solve their problems without having US troops around to shoot at and blow up.

My point was simply rhetorical, that if that assumption is wrong, world leaders would still be interested in a stable Iraq. The far-fetched part is the assumption being wrong (which again, I don't believe is).

I apologize if the term "immediate withdrawl" caused any confusion. I suppose "immediate and complete withdrawl" would have been more accurate. I don't see Obama's Iraq page use the term "immediate withdrawl," though he does say he will "immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq," "immediately begin withdrawing our troops engaged in combat operations," and "take immediate steps to confront the ongoing humanitarian disaster in Iraq."

And if it looks like I have more reasons to vote against McCain than for Obama (or anyone else), it's partially the scope of my argument and partially the skeptic side of me who grew up in the same political environment that you all did, where you vote for the lesser of two evils. It's an attitude I'm hoping we can change in America.

I'm a Democrat. I generally agree with the Democratic platform. I believe that we're all created equally and endowed with certain rights. I think making sure all Americans have healthcare is important. I think 21st century energy solutions are important and that serious changes need to be made quickly. I believe that people who are struggling to get by should pay lower taxes. I believe in a strong system of public education, that it's a matter of national security. I think we're custodians of the Earth, that we should leave it better than we found it. I believe that government not only works, but is essential -- so long as we have the proper checks and balances. I believe in promoting individual wealth as a way to build a stronger nation. I don't believe our national security can be guaranteed by building higher walls. I believe the greatness of a country is only as strong as our weakest citizens. I know we need to embrace new technology and new ideas if America is to be the leader this century that we were in the last. And I think it's of utmost importance to keep the promises we make to those of us who put their lives on the line for others; and to that end, that we should bring the war in Iraq to a close as quickly and safely as possible.

Obama more or less agrees with me on those points. So does Clinton. So do all the other Democrats who were running.

McCain is another story. He cheered Bush's veto of SCHIP. At best, McCain is inconsistent on energy; he's very pro-nuclear. He supports Bush's tax cuts on the top 1% of Americans, revenue that cut billions from the treasury, that we're now borrowing from China to pay for the war in Iraq. Nearly 30 years in Washington have taught McCain how to skirt the law and even ignore it. He wants to secure our borders with unmanned drones and continue Bush's policy of not talking to any leaders with whom we disagree. I have serious doubts whether McCain, who is older than FM radio, has what it takes to understand new technology and how it fits into our rapidly changing world. He voted against a bill mandating adequate troop rest in between deployments, against THREE bills giving much needed funding to Veterans Affairs during this time of war, against an amendment to provide better safety equipment to our combat troops. He urged other senators not to fund gear for the National Guard and Reserves and he favors corporate tax loopholes over veterans' medical care. And McCain wants to stay in Iraq for how long, again?

For me, the choice in November is crystal clear.

Kul, let's see who you're closer to...

On gun issues... Obama, who's not anti-gun, but certainly not the hawk McCain is.

On education... Obama, so long as that strong public education overrides union support for (the relatively small number of) bad teachers who get the kind of protection you mention.

On taxes... Obama. I don't think either candidate agrees that fiscal policy shouldn't be used for social change. But for progressive taxation and a balanced budget, he's your guy.

On poverty... Obama. He may not go as far as you want, but McCain doesn't even address it in his platform.

On the death penalty... Obama. He still supports it in cases of heinous crimes, however. McCain wants to make it easier.

On abortion... McCain. That's one thing he's pretty consistent on.

On right to die... Obama. He said the one vote he would take back would be his bandwagon vote to keep Terri Schaivo's feeding tube in.

On rehabilitation... Obama. He supports rehabilitation and programs to reintegrate offenders and lower recidivism. McCain wants more prisons and harsher penalties, but doesn't offer any alternative to putting more people in jail.

On drugs... not sure. I don't think you're going to find a viable candidate anytime soon who will make drugs legal. Obama admits to using pot in the past and trying coke. Just like the jailtime question, Obama focuses on rehabilitation, while McCain mostly pushes harsher sentences.

On foreign policy... Obama. So long as you think the UN's worthwhile and think workers' rights abroad have to be part of the deal.

The funny thing is, you're not strange. These are very common and consistent views. Don't let the liberal/conservative labels keep you from voting for the person who's closest to your ideals.

If I were to categorize you, I'd say you're a libertarian Democrat. Your "conservative" views aren't really those of a modern-day Republican. You seem to believe in individual freedom, so long as it doesn't interfere with another individual's freedom.

And finally, don't feed the trolls. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:07 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Leo,

First, a heartfelt thank you. This has been an interesting discussion and while I can't say you've made me into a believer you have given me some things to consider.

I'm not sure that there is anything that can make me comfortable voting for Obama if he wins the nomination. Yes, for the most part what he says is closer to my views than what McCain says but I find it very very difficult to put faith in words and overcome my resentment that if he'd waited a few more years there wouldn't be any need to just look at words.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:11 PM 
The Sleeper
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You're very welcome. I'm glad we could have it. This is the future of the world we're talking about here! Thanks for being open, honest, and civil.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:15 PM 
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Quote:
I posted my views because Leo asked, NOT to have them debated.


I'm assuming this was probably directed at Skycrasher, but I didn't intend to be too critical. I agree with a majority of what you posted, I just had to throw my 2 cents in on that one thing =p Sorry if it came off that way.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:20 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Actually Venen, educational reforms are something near & dear to my heart & if you'd like to start a thread I'll happily debate the issue with you. I just wanted this thread to stay kind of on topic.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:23 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Kulamiena wrote:
Leo,

First, a heartfelt thank you. This has been an interesting discussion and while I can't say you've made me into a believer you have given me some things to consider.

I'm not sure that there is anything that can make me comfortable voting for Obama if he wins the nomination. Yes, for the most part what he says is closer to my views than what McCain says but I find it very very difficult to put faith in words and overcome my resentment that if he'd waited a few more years there wouldn't be any need to just look at words.



Yeah I'm quoting myself... how redundant & concieted. But after typing that I realized that that is the single greatest thing I hold against Obama. This IS the future of our country and most probably the world that we're talking about here and goddamnit we deserve better than words on which to base our choice!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:29 PM 
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He's got more than words, he's got a senate record and community effort with which to back his endeavors and yet you choose to completely ignore it.

Luckily, you're in the extreme minority. Even Clinton herself concedes that he's prepared for teh White House. Hell, she even tried to "offer" him the VP. Lol.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:34 PM 
The Sleeper
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Would another few years in the Senate make the difference? If he were elected in 2000, when Clinton was, instead of 2004, would that seal the deal? The legislature has been particularly sluggish with most issues. Either Republican leadership was ramrodding things through or Democratic leadership was being too cautious. Of the three senators running for president, none of them really have shown strong leadership during this period. But that's not entirely their fault. The Senate doesn't lend itself to individual leaders. Legislative and executive experience aren't the same.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:18 PM 
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Quote:
I realize the point on Iraq was a bit far-fetched. However, I believe that most people around the world -- and most world leaders -- have an interest in a stable Iraq.
Yet that was your central premise for calling me a prick.

Quote:
Well, I think the only fanatical Obama supporter on these boards is XSkycrasherX.


Kula, don't cave. I think you're more like me. It's not the stance that you question, it's his ability to actually do it. I don't think he will or even can.

The reaction on these boards to what I've posted is a good indicator. Whether you believe what I have to say or not, isn't it telling that of the 4 or 5 people who have seriously engaged with me in this debate, most of them have resorted to personal attacks of some sort?

- I'm a prick
- I'm a black-fearing white man who is afraid the Obama is going to run off with my woman (an especially humorous point since I was married to a black woman for 7 years)
- I deserve to be murdered with a sandpaper covered chainsaw (that was funny, seriously, I don't take that personally.. it was genuinely amusing - very creative)

Oh, and let's not forget one directed at you - that you get raped and murdered.

Ok. Back on subject. I felt this editorial from the NYT today was quite interesting. I'm going to post a link and also quote the parts that I find worth extra discussion.

How Obama Fell to Earth
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/opini ... ref=slogin

Quote:
He sprinkled his debate performance Wednesday night with the sorts of fibs, evasions and hypocrisies that are the stuff of conventional politics. He claimed falsely that his handwriting wasn’t on a questionnaire about gun control. He claimed that he had never attacked Clinton for her exaggerations about the Tuzla airport, though his campaign was all over it. Obama piously condemned the practice of lifting other candidates’ words out of context, but he has been doing exactly the same thing to John McCain, especially over his 100 years in Iraq comment.


Quote:
He made a sweeping read-my-lips pledge never to raise taxes on anybody making less than $200,000 to $250,000 a year. That will make it impossible to address entitlement reform any time in an Obama presidency. It will also make it much harder to afford the vast array of middle-class tax breaks, health care reforms and energy policy Manhattan Projects that he promises to deliver.
How's he going to pay for that health care system?

Quote:
Then he made an iron vow to get American troops out of Iraq within 16 months. Neither Obama nor anyone else has any clue what the conditions will be like when the next president takes office. He could have responsibly said that he aims to bring the troops home but will make a judgment at the time. Instead, he rigidly locked himself into a policy that will not be fully implemented for another three years.

If Obama is elected, he will either go back on this pledge — in which case he would destroy his credibility — or he will risk genocide in the region and a viciously polarizing political war at home.
That's the reality I see, Leo, not the one you think will happen.

And this one's for lolcrasher:
Quote:
It was inevitable that the period of “Yes We Can!” deification would come to an end. It was not inevitable that Obama would now look so vulnerable. He’ll win the nomination, but in a matchup against John McCain, he is behind in Florida, Missouri and Ohio, and merely tied in must-win states like Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. A generic Democrat now beats a generic Republican by 13 points, but Obama is trailing his own party. One in five Democrats say they would vote for McCain over Obama.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:48 PM 
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Quote:
- I'm a black-fearing white man who is afraid the Obama is going to run off with my woman (an especially humorous point since I was married to a black woman for 7 years)


lol... you really took my comments in that post at face value? :p

Really, I just posted this time to say the Kula-- your basic stances there are almost exactly how I feel about each of them. In fact, it's almost eerie how close they are to my own views.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:52 PM 
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Bzalthek wrote:
I'll be stumping for the first motherfucker who advocates splitting the Earth in twain thus extinguishing life as we know it.


Like this guy?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4215908013


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:09 AM 
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Quote:
Like this guy?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4215908013


Truly a man of the people.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:43 AM 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:04 AM 
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I wonder if/when the Keating 5 thing is going to come into play with McCain.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:53 PM 
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rugen wrote:
I wonder if/when the Keating 5 thing is going to come into play with McCain.


I have no love for the guy......but I don't his involvement in it was as great as some of the others implicated, from what I recall.

In fact, an argument can be made that he was only charged because otherwise it would have been an all-Democrat lynching party. He *might* have been the sacrificial Republican just to make things appear more balanced.

Also, bringing up the Keating Five can't be done by the Dems, otherwise it's going to open up an ugly chapter for their own party. Do they have any ties to the Clintons or Obama? I personally don't know, but it can be embarassing if it gets out. If it's going to be brought up, it has to be from an outside group.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:47 PM 
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Ok, so John McCain made it clear over and over again that he thinks we're in troubled times economically. It's still a stupidass thing to say that we've made "GREAT" progress over that period of time, regardless of what he said before or after. Obama summed it up.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:59 PM 
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joxur wrote:


"If you look at the overall record there maybe some jobs being created over that period of time"
"...You can make an argument that there has been great progress economically in that period of time..."
"Still the greatest economic engine in the world"

How can you compliment a failing economy? There hasn't been progress economically.. How is that twisting words?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:39 AM 
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Jox, I didn't mean that as an attack, nor was it related to comments on Iraq. Your posts, and not just the ones responding to me, are coming off as deliberately obtuse and I wanted to warn you, as a friend, that you might be misunderstood.

I didn't see much of the last debate, so I can't say respond directly to those comments, but I highly doubt the remarks were so precise that they would prevent a change in policy based on a change of circumstance. It's foolish to think that the President of the United States is going to stick to a pledge, which at the time made may have been the proper decision, when, at the time implemented, is no longer prudent. Not only should we hope our commander-in-chief cares about making the right decision for the livelihood of our countrymen, but it should also be readily apparent to the majority of the nation that a change in policy is necessary, virtually negating any political damage.

Regarding the one in five, unfortunately, Clinton is in the same shape. That's why this primary should have been concluded already. Personally, my life would be simpler if Clinton performed as she was expected to and ended this thing on Super Tuesday. There's no question how much better she did in Florida, and with McCain being the only candidate actively campaigning here, it's no surprise that there's been little change.

All other factors remaining the same (the same concept we have to apply to comments on policy), Clinton offers larger coattails for South Florida candidates in November. And while that could change between now and then, it won't as long as Obama doesn't campaign here and doesn't relent on the seating of our delegates.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:08 AM 
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24196240/

"YOU SHOULD SUPPORT HILLARY BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN, REGARDLESS OF THE FACT SHE'S AS NOT AS GOOD OF A CANDIDATE AS BARACK! IF YOU DON'T, OOOOH!!! WELL, LET'S JUST SAY I HOPE YOURE NOT TAKING YOUR SUCCESS FOR GRANTED... CATCH MY DRIFT?"

Fucking cunts.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:53 AM 
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This just about made me laugh my balls off...

Quote:
The reason some give: If Clinton does not win the White House this year, no woman will reach that goal in their lifetimes.


The way I read this is that if we don't get Clinton in the White House (let alone give her the Democratic Nomination) then women everywhere may as well just give up on all their goals and dreams because some asshole man is going to steal them.

Fuck that noise.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:57 AM 
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Yeah, total bullshit. It's not Hillary's "turn" to be in the White House. That's what I hate so much, the fucking entitlement she and her staffers/campaigners/supporters feel that she is owed.

It'll make Barack's nomination acceptance speech that much better.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:58 AM 
Trakanon is FFA!
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Leo: Yes, another Senate term or at least a few more years of Senate experience would make a difference to me. It would be more of a 'historical' record without the taint of a presidential run, with it's absenteeism and ducking of controversy.

Jox: I'm not convinced. I will take some of the information presented here into consideration though, even if it doesn't address the heart of my problem with Obama. (And still hoping Clinton can pull off a miracle)

Skycrasher: Nothing new. African-American Supers have been facing the same 'loyalty' b.s. for awhile now but I'm not going to sink to your level and call names and many white Supers have been facing cries of 'racist'. It's become a game of one-up-man-ship. The entitlement question has also been used by the Obama camp. Stop deluding yourself that he's not a typical politician. He is.

Khameir: See my response to Skycrasher. The race card has been played against Supers using that exact same argument.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:29 AM 
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Quote:
I didn't see much of the last debate, so I can't say respond directly to those comments, but I highly doubt the remarks were so precise that they would prevent a change in policy based on a change of circumstance. It's foolish to think that the President of the United States is going to stick to a pledge, which at the time made may have been the proper decision, when, at the time implemented, is no longer prudent. Not only should we hope our commander-in-chief cares about making the right decision for the livelihood of our countrymen, but it should also be readily apparent to the majority of the nation that a change in policy is necessary, virtually negating any political damage.
The problem I have with Obama is that he is running on the premise that he's not politics as usual - yet pandering to an audience and making blanket claims that you know won't actually happen IS pandering to an audience.

He's also lost any moral high ground he once had by going after Clinton just like she has gone after him.

His campaign is preparing an anti swift-boat research team to respond to the Ayers issue and others - yet the Ayers issue is nothing like the swift-boat thing. The questions surrounding his relationship with Ayers are legitimate and should be asked.

His criticism of Jimmy Carter for meeting with Hamas, after making blanket statements that he would meet with Iran and other enemies, is also pandering to an audience. He knows he needs the pro-Israeli Democrats. But his declaration against Carter directly contradicts the spirit - perhaps even the literal intent - behind his words.

Then: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/01/ ... /obama.php
Quote:
In his Democratic presidential bid, Obama has vigorously sought to distinguish his foreign policy approach from his rivals, particularly the policy of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, by asserting he would sit down for diplomatic meetings with countries like Iran, North Korea and Syria with few if any preconditions.


Now: http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/cam ... obama.html
Quote:
For the first time publicly, Obama himself criticized former President Jimmy Carter for meeting with Hamas leaders this week in Egypt. (A campaign statement nearly a week earlier had stated that the senator "does not agree" with Carter's plan to meet with Hamas.)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:30 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Skycrasher: Nothing new. African-American Supers have been facing the same 'loyalty' b.s. for awhile now but I'm not going to sink to your level and call names and many white Supers have been facing cries of 'racist'. It's become a game of one-up-man-ship. The entitlement question has also been used by the Obama camp. Stop deluding yourself that he's not a typical politician. He is.

Khameir: See my response to Skycrasher. The race card has been played against Supers using that exact same argument.


Can you show me some sort of substantive backing to this claim that Superdelegates have tried to bully others into supporting Barack because they're black and shouly be loyal? To the extend that future ambitions by a dissenting supporter may be extinguished?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:31 AM 
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PS: We'll never truly know until the DNC (even that's iffy.), but it'd be interesting to know:

A. How many Female SDs there are
B. How many Black SDs there are
C. How many minority SDs there are not encompassed in the prior 2 groups
and
D. How did they vote?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:35 AM 
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xskycrasherx wrote:
PS: We'll never truly know until the DNC (even that's iffy.), but it'd be interesting to know:

A. How many Female SDs there are
B. How many Black SDs there are
C. How many minority SDs there are not encompassed in the prior 2 groups
and
D. How did they vote?


A link Joxur has posted before: http://politics.nytimes.com/election-gu ... index.html


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:39 AM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
xskycrasherx wrote:
PS: We'll never truly know until the DNC (even that's iffy.), but it'd be interesting to know:

A. How many Female SDs there are
B. How many Black SDs there are
C. How many minority SDs there are not encompassed in the prior 2 groups
and
D. How did they vote?


A link Joxur has posted before: http://politics.nytimes.com/election-gu ... index.html


I'm aware of the link, but that's not complete and it doesn't have race as a factor.

It's interesting to see that 74 women SDs supported Obama while 117 support Clinton. Pretty stark contrast. Like I said, when all is said and done it'll be very interesting to see the final tallies.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:50 AM 
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Here's a quick link to a story about the "Uncle Tom" tactics used against black Supers who were initially for Clinton: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8762.html

There are others if you need them to open your eyes to the fact that this division-causing crap has been utilized by both sides.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:02 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Here's a quick link to a story about the "Uncle Tom" tactics used against black Supers who were initially for Clinton: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8762.html

There are others if you need them to open your eyes to the fact that this division-causing crap has been utilized by both sides.


That's not the same thing. The Clinton camp is utilizing Superdelegate influence versus some noob grassroots campaign "Color of Change" or whatever. Can you show me something (like I asked before) that shows superdelegates bullying other superdelegates like we saw in teh Clinton article?

I take less offense to some random jerks doing it than someone who is supposed to have pride and principles in their positions of power and influence.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:19 PM 
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Quote:
That's not the same thing. The Clinton camp is utilizing Superdelegate influence versus some noob grassroots campaign "Color of Change" or whatever. Can you show me something (like I asked before) that shows superdelegates bullying other superdelegates like we saw in teh Clinton article?
Yeah. I'll quote the article you cited yourself.

Quote:
Among black superdelegates, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., asked Rep. Emanuel Cleaver of Missouri, a Clinton supporter, earlier this year: "If it comes down to the last day and you're the only superdelegate ... do you want to go down in history as the one to prevent a black from winning the White House?"
Stick to the lolrape posts. Debate is not what you're best at.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:22 PM 
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lolrape posts? Is that your zinger, doing "lol" in front of stuff? "Lolcrasher" and "Lolrape" etc. Tiring!

Anyhow, I don't see that in the same light as what we saw in the Clinton. We saw people literally being threatened that if they don't vote for Clinton that they'd face reprecussions. I don't see the same in the quote you posted. Do you?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:48 PM 
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Anyhow, I don't see that in the same light as what we saw in the Clinton. We saw people literally being threatened that if they don't vote for Clinton that they'd face reprecussions. I don't see the same in the quote you posted. Do you?
First of all, the article you cited shows no superdelegate-on-superdelegate intimidation. Find it for me, please.

Second, the post that Kula cited does talk about hints of an opponent when they run for re-election.

Quote:
“African-American superdelegates are being targeted, harassed and threatened,” said Rep. Emanuel Cleaver II (D-Mo.), a superdelegate who has supported Clinton since August. Cleaver said black superdelegates are receiving “nasty letters, phone calls, threats they’ll get an opponent, being called an Uncle Tom.

Do you read the shit you post before you post it?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:54 PM 
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joxur wrote:
Quote:
Anyhow, I don't see that in the same light as what we saw in the Clinton. We saw people literally being threatened that if they don't vote for Clinton that they'd face reprecussions. I don't see the same in the quote you posted. Do you?
First of all, the article you cited shows no superdelegate-on-superdelegate intimidation. Find it for me, please.

Second, the post that Kula cited does talk about hints of an opponent when they run for re-election.

Quote:
“African-American superdelegates are being targeted, harassed and threatened,” said Rep. Emanuel Cleaver II (D-Mo.), a superdelegate who has supported Clinton since August. Cleaver said black superdelegates are receiving “nasty letters, phone calls, threats they’ll get an opponent, being called an Uncle Tom.

Do you read the shit you post before you post it?


Dude the whole fucking article I posted from MSNBC is about how female SDs are risking their positions in Congress by supporting Barack. Why are you ignoring that?

Nowhere in the second article linked that you're using are people being threatened with their livelihood or seat in Congress. By the way, "threats they'll get an opponent" doesn't mean in a race, lol. You're misreading and misunderstanding it.

Of course SDs will get crazy phone calls from regular average_joe_assholes across the nation. Clinton isn't the only one receiving them. Obama is as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:57 PM 
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Can you show me something (like I asked before) that shows superdelegates bullying other superdelegates like we saw in teh Clinton article?
This is from an earlier post, by you.

Keep digging, bro.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:59 PM 
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Skycrasher: Bill Bradley on Meet the Press way back on March 16th started the whole "face a challenge in the primary" threat game. Check it out. Bradley, an Obama supporter AND surrogate (that means he was sent to appear when the campaign was called and asked to send someone), began this. Again, stop deluding yourself that Obama isn't a typical politician. He is.

Also, you are aware that EVERY member of the congressional Black Caucus is a Super, correct?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:28 PM 
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I didn't see much of the last debate, so I can't say respond directly to those comments, but I highly doubt the remarks were so precise that they would prevent a change in policy based on a change of circumstance.
Leo, I wanted to respond to this quote a bit more thoroughly.



I think that's a pretty precise statement, and he didn't leave any wiggle room.

This is part of the problem I have with you guys. Did any of the Obama stalwarts on these boards watch the entire debate? I did... I'm in the trenches taking grenades, and you guys didn't even watch it?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:59 PM 
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Kulamiena wrote:
Skycrasher: Bill Bradley on Meet the Press way back on March 16th started the whole "face a challenge in the primary" threat game. Check it out. Bradley, an Obama supporter AND surrogate (that means he was sent to appear when the campaign was called and asked to send someone), began this. Again, stop deluding yourself that Obama isn't a typical politician. He is.

Also, you are aware that EVERY member of the congressional Black Caucus is a Super, correct?


He's not a typical politician, but since you seem steadfast on saying it is so, and that you are the objective arbiter of the decision as to whether or not he is a typical politician or not -- then so be it. You will be dissatisfied at first when he wins the Presidential election of 2008, however after a few years and you see the change, you will come around. =)

@ Joxur, feel free to find a link that shows the type of bullying, blackmailing, and threats that the Clinton campaign has launched on Superdelegates coming from the Obama campaign and I'll listen to you. Until then, you simply have no credibility. =)

Thanks, mate!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:07 PM 
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@ Joxur, feel free to find a link that shows the type of bullying, blackmailing, and threats that the Clinton campaign has launched on Superdelegates coming from the Obama campaign and I'll listen to you. Until then, you simply have no credibility. =)
Blackmailing from the Clinton campaign? Did you find out about that one from the people in the black helicopters circling your house?

First, it was the superdelegates doing it. Now, it's the Clinton campaign. Who's next? z germans?

Links were provided. I think we've done a lot more to back up our claims than you have.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:16 PM 
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No sir, ya haven't. The article from MSNBC states with no ambiguity that women who don't support Clinton and instead, "dissent" against (somehow as if being a woman were a prerequisite or qualifier to winning the Presidency) and support Obama, are having their careers in Congress at risk.

Now, where did you post an article saying that the Blacks who don't support Obama will have their careers jeopardized? You posted some quote saying with the question posed of "If you were the last deciding voter, would you, as a black man, prevent the US from having it's first Black president?" While it's a stupid question as the guy is a noted Clinton supporter, it's not on the same level of "If you don't vote this x_way, y_bad_things will happen!!!"

Good luck on your search. =)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:23 PM 
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Every member of Congress is, period. Black, white, brown, yellow, or red.

Florida, in theory, has 25 super delegates:
- 14 white men
- 6 white women
- 2 black men
- 3 black women

Of those, only one is Hispanic. So far as I know, only one is gay. I believe 4 are Jewish. Only one is under age 40. 4 are committed to Obama and 6 are in the Clinton camp. From The Miami Herald: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpol ... ate.56.pdf

There's pressure from both camps. Of course there is. And while that MSNBC article has some merit, there are lots of other factors in play, besides race or gender, like who their district likes. The odds that any incumbent is going to face a stiff primary because of their vote at the convention is slimmer than slim. Considering that so many black representatives are in "black" districts, yes, that's a real threat. Women aren't in quite the same situation, though groups like Emily's List do often play big roles in campaigns, so that's a notable threat as well. These things are no surprise. Is it any different with legislation?

Jox, thanks for posting that clip. I wish it had more substance of the debate though -- there's obviously something cut off at the end, the "let me finish my point" statement. I don't know what he was meaning there, though the clip shows a contradiction.

I can only guess what he was trying to say, so I can only speak for myself here. If "I will not raise your taxes if you make under $250K" is the promise you want to stick with, reinstate the tax for income only above $250K, with that number automatically adjusting each year, as the cap does. The whole point of eliminating the cap is the flood of revenue from people living much more than middle class lifestyles.

This, by the way, is why so many politicians campaign with vague promises -- and I don't like it anymore than you do. But the more you say, the more open you are to being misunderstood, saying the wrong thing, and offering sound bites for YouTube clips.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:28 PM 
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The only example cited in the article you posted was from Emily's List.

Basic log experiment:

1) Emily's List is not a superelegate
2) Emily's List is not Hillary Clinton's campaign

Seriously. Quote the part of your link that backs up what you claim. Here's a punch list of things you have to back up: That a group of people, both superdelegates and from Clinton's campaign, did one or more of the following: Blackmailed, threatened or bullied one of those women in the article.

But again, I can quote you, from the very article YOU posted, an example of someone from Obama's campaign doing the very thing you are lambasting.

If you can't get more specific, stop posting.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:30 PM 
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log = logic


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:32 PM 
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Joxur, you're ignoring and deflecting. :(

If you seriously don't have the ability to back up what you say, then please dismiss your faux-attempts at discussion (when it's more than clear that you're simply trying to incite vehemency between Clinton/Obama/McCain supporters.) and remove yourself from the sub-forum... it's becoming sad to watch you cling to the straws and it's a great example of the vitriol that Clinton and McCain inspire.

Thanks in advance! (Though I know you won't comply. :()


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:36 PM 
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Good job not rising to the occasion. Even Leo admitted you were full of shit.

Here's another little nugget for you. Leo, what's your take on this?



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:46 PM 
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You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole and continue to look more foolish. Please, for your sake, stop posting and try to save a little face. You've devolved into such a vitriolic hateful person and it's apparent that your apathy and lack of hope are turning you bitter towards someone who will enact real change and give America the hope it needs again and put our country on the right tracks and in a better position than it was in when Bush wrecked it.

I feel kind of sad that you think it's ok to throw out bullshit arguments with no legitimate backing and then at the same time try to call others out. I dunno what to say, and it's becoming tiring to try and debate with someone on your level, a true exercise in futility... I feel bad for you. :(

Again, when you post something with legitimacy and can refute my assertions, then I'll listen but until then, I'll just wince in pain at who you've become since our days in TSO.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:50 PM 
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Sounds dead on to me. Every single time she has a chance to get a dig in, she does it. Not one single time do you see her say something like "You know, I think this is an unfair attack on my opponent." like she should have during the Wright controversy. Every single opportunity.

It's to be expected in politics of course, but I yawn every time I hear her open her mouth in a debate, because I know she's going to try and be contrary in every way to what Obama says and does. It is definitely getting old.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:51 PM 
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I think that's a pretty precise statement, and he didn't leave any wiggle room.

This is part of the problem I have with you guys. Did any of the Obama stalwarts on these boards watch the entire debate? I did... I'm in the trenches taking grenades, and you guys didn't even watch it?


He went ON to say that those in the middle of that 100-200k bracket would potentially be exempt under his plan. With enough people being exempt, I'm pretty sure that would be a net effect of lowering taxes.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:21 PM 
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Venen wrote:
He went ON to say that those in the middle of that 100-200k bracket would potentially be exempt under his plan. With enough people being exempt, I'm pretty sure that would be a net effect of lowering taxes.
I don't know if I could say that by itself would have a net effect of lowering taxes, but thank you for letting me know what was missing. I'm not surprised it's essentially what I said because that's the only thing that makes sense.

Jox, that looks like a video of a candidate showing that he's still in the race, that his opponent's attacks don't bother him enough to change that, and that those attacks will keep coming. If anything, it's quite cordial to Clinton. He could throw something else at her, but basically just says that it's what's expected of her, as his opponent, but also as a Washington-insider.

Some people who take a more Machiavellian approach to politics might say it's Obama not doing his job. He perfectly outlines Clinton's job as a candidate, to bash him and point out his flaws, but then Obama doesn't put himself in the same role.

It's just a candidate rallying his supporters. There's really nothing in that clip of interest, even if you want to say this makes him a regular politician. That question aside, there are some things that have to be done in campaigns, like rallying your supporters.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:30 PM 
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I don't know if I could say that by itself would have a net effect of lowering taxes, but thank you for letting me know what was missing. I'm not surprised it's essentially what I said because that's the only thing that makes sense.




It's towards the end of that clip that he talks about it. I find it hilarious but also sad when people make clips and edit them when the person is about to make a counterpoint. It just shows how disingenuous people can be.

Edit: fixed link


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