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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:06 PM 
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It seems we (the American public) are being groomed now for conflict with Iran. From stories of Iranian super weapons like radar evading cruise missiles or rocket launched torpedoes to how the leader is Evil, and how we cannot allow them to continue with their nuclear research. If there haven’t been any stories of Iranian atrocities I'm sure there will be soon. Everybody in the area has beat up on the Kurds, including our allies the Turks, maybe they'll dig something up there.<
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Is the American public buying it? Are we prepared for another nation building adventure from the anti-nationbuilding president? What about congress? The governmental body that was supposed to have the power to make war according to that inconvenient little document the Constitution. They seem awfully quiet on this matter. Will they acquiesce to Caesar again, and let him wield the power of the US military with impunity? Gotta "support the troops!" ya know. Heaven forbid if someone in congress is accused of not supporting the troops, they'd be going against stickers on SUVs everywhere! Support the troops has become IMO the "conservative" equivalent of "Won't someone think of the children!?" in terms of inane platitudes.<
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Anyway... where was I? Oh yeah Iran. So let's suppose our President does order some sort of military strike against Iran. We may set back Iran's nuclear program, but we can probably guarantee that military action against Iran will cement the hold of the current government on the country. We all know how conflict can unite a country just look at how everyone rallied around Bush after 9/11, heck the entire western world rallied around the US…. So much potential squandered by ideological morons. /sigh <
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According to Hersch's New Yorker article there are those in the administration that think a bombing campaign will embarrass the Iranian government and the people will rise up and overthrow the current president. I'd like to think they're not stupid enough to think that, and therefore (I hope) not stupid enough to use nukes in a pre-emptive strike against Iran's nuclear facilities like his article also suggests.<
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There's also the problem of Iraq, with its large Shia population sympathetic to Iran, and Iraq's shared border with Iran it makes a fat retaliatory target for Iran should we go after their nuclear program in some fashion. Then there's Israel, the proverbial albatross around US's neck when it comes to dealing with the Muslim world. Will Israel retaliate when Iran inevitably launches missiles at Israel after we strike the nuclear facilities in Iran, and possibly expand the conflict?<
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I'm sure the planners at the Pentagon or wherever have taken all these variables and more into consideration, but are the ideologues in the Bush administration listening? That is what worries me, I just don't see anything good coming out of any military action against Iran. The Bush administration with their war of choice against Iraq have put us in a precarious position when it comes to dealing with Iran, I'd even go so far to say we are in a bit of a Kobayashi Maru situation with Iran.<
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Cliff Notes: We’re being primed for war with Iran. I think war with Iran is a bad idea.<
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:52 PM 
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I would actually be in favor of W bombing Iran, and here is why. They are the real problems in the middle east, it was never about Iraq. No way Bush and his administration can go any further into the shitter, so he might as well do it for the legacy of maybe taking the crazy bastard out. Bush will be out in two years, and that time we can start a whole new diplomacy campaign and blame everything on W. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:09 PM 
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without a draft, I don't see how, unless we are planning on pulling out of Iraq.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:13 PM 
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Whats the exit strategy for Iraq? <
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Go thru Iran or Syria. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:19 PM 
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This is why Iraq is such a disaster. Iran is a real threat and we can't address it. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:26 PM 
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Only a matter of time at this point before the 1st missle is launched at iran. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:35 PM 
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I'd support action against Iran via the UN - which wouldn't strain US forces as much anyway. Even Russia and China are a bit edgy on Iran, so don't count that out. But I do think there are serious issues with that government which may end up needing to be addressed via military action. And yes, once again, Bush's fuckup in Iraq comes back to bite everyone in the ass.<
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Hell, Saddam could've been your ally for this one. <
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:45 PM 
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Addendum:<
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With Canada's newly elected Conservative party, you'll likely find our support in a campaign against Iran as well.<
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Also, thx new title~ <
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:58 PM 
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I was reading some of the rhetoric coming out of the white house about Iran today...<
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And was floored that they totally plagarized the early rhetoric, almost to the exact word, that was thrown out early in the Iraq debacle.<
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Dubya has jumped the shark and has fully descended into thinking that WW3 is America's divine right to ending terrorism. We have become the pre WW1 Germany of the twenty first century.<
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Shit, right now, I'm thinking I'm gonna swim the Rio and become an illegal alien in Mexico. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:07 PM 
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Quote: I was reading some of the rhetoric coming out of the white house about Iran today...<
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What sort of carbon-copy did you see? I haven't heard or seen anything thus far that has been plagiarized. Outside of the fact that we think they are a threat, harbor terrorists and are from the Middle East. I have a feeling that we will be doing our best to obtain a UN coalition for this at the very least.<
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Quote:Shit, right now, I'm thinking I'm gonna swim the Rio and become an illegal alien in Mexico.<
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Don't let the falling sky hit you in the ass on the way out, Chicken Little. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:18 PM 
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS...sh.access/ well there is this.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:25 PM 
For the old school!
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Quote:Don't let the falling sky hit you in the ass on the way out, Chicken Little.<
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First off, trying to troll me by taking my comments way to literally just shows how clueless you are sometimes.<
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Secondly, I'm glad to see you happily sucking on Dubya's cock still 6 years later and begging for the money shot to the face.<
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Keep the faith
otha. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:26 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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As I said, I see some similarities, like you would with any nation we feel is a threat due to nuclear reasons, but I fail to see how it mirrors Iraq. /shrug no big deal, maybe I am just not looking into it deep enough.<
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Politics and administration aside, I do honestly believe that ourselves, along with any other nation who cares, do need to research, gain intel, and make a decision on what to do about Iran because we are not the only ones that think/know they are a major threat.<
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P.S. Linking a Wolf Blizter interview as proof is like me linking an Ann Coulter one. I do see the smiley though so... <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:29 PM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Quote:First off, trying to troll me by taking my comments way to literally just shows how clueless you are sometimes.<
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I am not trying to troll you, and every paragraph in your post was "the sky is falling!" in nature. Let's see:<
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Quote:Dubya has jumped the shark and has fully descended into thinking that WW3 is America's divine right to ending terrorism. We have become the pre WW1 Germany of the twenty first century.<
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Do you honestly believe this? Give me a
eak.<
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Quote:Secondly, I'm glad to see you happily sucking on Dubya's cock still 6 years later and begging for the money shot to the face.<
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This has nothing to do with the President. I think this would be just as big of an issue regardless of who was in office.<
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:40 PM 
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Just shows how short memories are. The current buildup of press and rhetoric we are seeing today almost seems formulaic to the way we lead into Iraq. It's not a Sky is falling deal, Ark. Don't let your love of the Right House give you glaucoma to the truth that we are going the same way.<
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In a month, maybe too, we're going to see the US pressure the UN even more into more censure againt Iran. Then inspectors, which won't ever cross into the border. Finally, the war rhetoric will build up, and shortly before the election, you will see a military strike on Iran. And, honestly, it will be to do what we did to keep Bush in office the first time, because no one will want to switch administrations during war. So to keep the Republican's in power, a newly revitalized war effort would be perfect. Do I believe this. As much as I would like to say 'Fanatic Conspiracy Theory Bullshit', I've lost faith in our government, and our voting populace, to think for a minute that this exact train of thought has not crosse more than a few minds in the republican party.<
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Seriously, do you honestly believe that the US would vote in the Dem's, or even more importantly, a democratic woman, while we are firmly entrenched in a revitalized Middle Eastern war effort?<
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Look at it this way. We keep hearing how Iran wants to build nukes. In order to do so, they would need 1200 centrifuges working non stop for a full year to create the uranium gas needed to enrich enough uranium for 1 bomb. Iran, right now, has 159 centrifuges that have been spinning for 1 day. They have, in a nuclear community, just launched a Wright Flyer. The first, weak steps. They are a long way away from being a player in the true nuclear club. Yet, we keep hearing how 'They are so close to building a nuke'.<
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And Iran, for their credit, is also following a formula, and playing the exact same strategy that North Korea played us for. NK called our bluff. Iran is hoping for the same. However, NK also had China backing them, who the US straight up ain't in a position, or a desire, to fight. Iran is alone, except for, you guessed it, other Islamic nations, that the US basically want's gone anyway, and knows that not a one of them can really stand up to us militarily with the exception of random guerilla attacks using coffee can roadside bombs.<
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Straight up logic shows how fucking predictable this entire spectacle is. Come back in a month or two, re-read this, and tell me how wrong I am then. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:06 PM 
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don't forget the buildup for korea! we heard lots about them too! <
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:28 PM 
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Wolf Blitzer is beside the point. Seymour Hersch is a pulitzer prize winning credible journalist. Want to read a great book about the Kennedys, read his book about Camelot. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:54 PM 
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I actually expect Iran to start this whole mess by shooting at one of our ships or aircraft in international waters.<
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A fight against Iran would a standoff fight. All Navy and Air Force would just pummel them from the sea and air. We dont need to ocupy the land, just prevent them from being a threat to themselves. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:02 PM 
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Quote:I actually expect Iran to start this whole mess by shooting at one of our ships or aircraft in international waters.<
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Hell, we could even fake it just like Korea, Vietnam, The Spanish-American War, and World War 1. Who needs provocation when you can supply it yourself! <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:07 PM 
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Quote:A fight against Iran would a standoff fight. All Navy and Air Force would just pummel them from the sea and air. We dont need to ocupy the land, just prevent them from being a threat to themselves. Unfortunately Iran may choose to make it a land war too. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:21 PM 
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It would seem there might be more than meets the eye.<
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I can't speak for the reliability, impartiality or reputation of the sites which I found in a quick search, but I can say there seems to be a general consensus from a wide variety of sources.<
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http://www.energybulletin.net/2913.html<
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Published on 27 Oct 2004 by Global Research. Archived on 27 Oct 2004.<
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The Real Reasons Why Iran is the Next Target: The Emerging Euro-denominated International Oil Marker<
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by William Clark <
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The Iranians are about to commit an "offense" far greater than Saddam Hussein's conversion to the euro of Iraq’s oil exports in the fall of 2000. Numerous articles have revealed Pentagon planning for operations against Iran as early as 2005. While the publicly stated reasons will be over Iran's nuclear ambitions, there are unspoken macroeconomic drivers explaining the Real Reasons regarding the 2nd stage of petrodollar warfare - Iran's upcoming euro-based oil Bourse. <
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http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=47792<
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What does pose as a threat is Iran's attempt to re-shape the global economical system by converting it from a petro-dollar to a petro-euro system. <
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Iran is treading the same economical war path Saddam Hussein started when in 2000 he converted all of the Iraq's reserve from the US$ to the Euro, and demanded payments in Euro for Iraqi oil.<
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*****<
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http://www.serendipity.li/wot/akleh.htm<
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March 19, 2005 — Iran does not pose a threat to the United State because of its nuclear projects, its WMD or its support to "terrorists organizations" as the American administration is claiming, but rather in its attempt to re-shape the global economic system by converting it from a petrodollar to a petroeuro system.<
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/08...-wome.html<
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Is the biggest threat Iran poses to the United States really its nuclear ambitions - or is it petropolitics? <
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*****<
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chapelhill.indymedia.org/...omment.php<
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mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=530827<
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(Interesting, but no quick quotes here)<
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*****<
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http://www.thehandstand.org/arch...es/oil.htm<
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"A successful Iranian bourse will solidify the petro-euro as an alternative oil transaction currency, and thereby end the petro-dollar's hegemonic status as the monopoly oil currency. Therefore, a graduated approach is needed to avoid precipitous U.S. economic dislocations." "This notion that the United States is getting ready to attack Iran is simply ridiculous ... Having said that, all options are on the table." -- President George W. Bush, Fe
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*****<
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globalresearch.ca/index.p...cleId=2151<
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Iran denies reports it will open euro oil exchange (March 22, 2006)<
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*****<
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Is the last link a possible indication of Iran wanting to back off from a potentially risky position?<
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<i></i>

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:36 PM 
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Ann Coulter has an adam's apple<
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:58 PM 
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Quote:P.S. Linking a Wolf Blizter interview as proof is like me linking an Ann Coulter one. I do see the smiley though so... <
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I can tell he has some biases(especially when it comes to Israel) but I haven't seen it to be glaringly obvious in most cases. From what I've seen he's one of the most objective reporters in the media. Can't believe you would compare it to linking something from Ann Coulter =p "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."<
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- Thomas Edison<i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:42 PM 
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Wait a sec...how is the US going to invade Venezula and Iran at the same time! Seriously though, W better get UN backing on this one, or else its the draft and more debt wheeeee. <
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Question to the American citizens: Is it likely to see the next round of presidential candidates take an agresive stance toward your national debt, and secondly, would you vote for them or is it not a major issue right now? <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:22 AM 
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Quote:don't forget the buildup for korea! we heard lots about them too!<
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That was actually my first thought too. I mean they practically begged us with their nuke posturing. <
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But really, what the fuck does North Korea have that makes us even want to deal with them. (Plus don't forget China and the last war we had with them).<
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Meanwhile back in the Middle East...Iran's a better target. Far more likely than us going into North Korea. But like others have said, I really don't see how it would be possible, considering how we're stretched thin in Iraq. Plus, Iran's president even has support of liberals in his country because of his nationalism stance. They ignore the fundemental overtones, and like what they hear otherwise. So we wouldn't even have that avenue of support in Iran at this point.<
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And we don't have Iraq to support in a war against them like before. We fucked that pooch when we went into Iraq. <
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So unless someone else in the world wants to deal with it, Iran can pretty much proceed like they're doing. And they know it. /shrug The Birth of Tarot (NSFW)<
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:21 AM 
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Quote:P.S. Linking a Wolf Blizter interview as proof is like me linking an Ann Coulter one. I do see the smiley though so... <
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Umm it was the Hersh I was looking more at. He started hitting the news circuits yesterday with sources stating we are doing pre-war intelligence gathering/target marking in Iran. <
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Hersh info if you didn't know: <
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:28 AM 
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Quote:<
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Is it likely to see the next round of presidential candidates take an agresive stance toward your national debt, and secondly, would you vote for them or is it not a major issue right now?<
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Our debt matters to a lot of us. Unfortunately what you are likely to see in this next round of elections are<
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Republicans: GAYS AND IMMIGRANTS ARE DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY! DO YOU WANT THE TERRORISTS TO WIN AND DESTROY YOUR LOCAL STARBUCKS?<
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Democrats: That's not really how it is.<
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Republicans: WISHY WASHY LIBERALS. HA HA. WE'RE STRONG ON THESE ISSUES! THEY ARE WEAK! DON'T VOTE WEAK!<
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Democrats: Uh. Us too! err *cough* WE'RE STRONG TOO!<
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And in the end, America will lose because we know their both full of shit, but the republican
and of shit these days is pretty damn dangerous and appealing to a pretty whacked out segment of our population that can be easily manipulated into bolstering support for them, even if they
eak their promises to those people later. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:52 AM 
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Quote:appealing to a pretty whacked out segment of our population that can be easily manipulated into bolstering support for them, even if they
eak their promises to those people later. <
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This sentence can be used for any political party in any country. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:47 PM 
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Iraq is merely a single battle in the war on terror. Like every war preceding it, the combatants have finite rsources. It should be pretty obvious to people by now that the insurgency in Iraq is not a purely indigenous product. Waging war requires money, lots of money. Soldiers have to eat, weapons have to be procured and the creators of said weapons expect payment. People making weapons of destruction are putting time and effort into it that is not being spent on creative things. War costs money, no matter what side you are on, period. <
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The Iraqi insurgency is in large part supplied and funded by international terrorist organizations and islamic dictatorships, read IRAN. If we go after Iran we will indeed have to put more effort into the war than we are right now, but we will be forcing the Iranians to vector money away from supporting foreign terror groups and into fighting us on their own turf. <
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I would also like to point out, that Bush's reasoning for invading Iraq has been pretty much totally vindicated. Saddam WAS seeking WMDs, Saddam WAS colluding with terrorist organizations including Al Qaeda, and Saddam did indeed have all the infrastructure necessary to immediatly resume WMD production at short notice. The only thing missing were large quantities of actual usable WMDs, we only found a few. The rest were in my opinion either destroyed or covertly shipped out of the country, both entirely plausible scenarios. <
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As such, any attempt to suggest that we are again getting mislead into a war is illogical as there was no misleading in the first place. Not that it matters, because mislead or not we have to go on what we have, and what we have says that an insane regime is working on developing the most destructive weapon in the world. It's like a plot from a bond movie, only it's real. You don't stand by idly while a regime as belligerent as the one currently ruling Iran is building such a dangerous weapon. -Kylahn Dy'Nar - 51 Paladin <Hex> EQ2.Mistmoore<i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:52 PM 
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lol, Kylahn, even the most stagnant pro-Iraq supporters at the beginning have conceded that they were misled. Are you actually fucking serious? haha.<
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I've never seen that level of stupidity. Seriously. Even ask Arkayn if he thinks the intel was fucked that was used to go to war. You can't have your head that far in the sand can you?<
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Wake up buddy. Best case, your intel was just way off the mark. More likely however, your president purposely took what he wanted to justify a war. Type in http://www.cnn.com and I'm sure you'll see at least a few articles on Bush, Libby and Intel related issues.<
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--Dar <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:47 PM 
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The vast majority of the ultra conservatives I know (even the moderate ones) don't sound that much like they just wrote a speech for Bush. <
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Hell I'm not even against us being in Iraq and I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as you did. That's just pure party line with no logic. It's like you ripped it right off the white house press site. Do you think for yourself? <
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"When you can't run anymore, you crawl, <
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and when you can't do that, you find someone to carry you" - Tracey - Firefly<i></i>

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:40 PM 
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wow. It's like your posting from a parallel universe.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:56 PM 
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And the rhetoric grows.<
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US says Iran could produce a Nuclear weapon in 16 days.<
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Rice comments on Iran<
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Strike up the band, and wrap yourself in the flag kiddies, we're going to war... again. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:59 PM 
For the old school!
For the old school!

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:17 PM
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Quote:Saeedi said 54,000 centrifuges will be able to enrich uranium to provide fuel for a 1,000-megawat nuclear power plant similar to the one Russia is finishing in southern Iran, AP reported.<
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Complete aside, but I really wouldn't want Russia to be building my nuclear plants. The Birth of Tarot (NSFW)<
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Keep my head from exploding?...<b>You can help!</b><i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:47 PM 
What does this button do?
What does this button do?
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Location: Hovering Squid World 97A
Well maybe they didn't like the reactor we gave them in the 60s, and decided to go with the Ruskies. Up until the revolution we were pretty involved in helping the Iranians with their nuclear program.<
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran's_nuclear_program<
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Nuclear assistance + supporting a corrupt government + fundie revolution to overthrow government = more bad blowback from the middle east.<
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Anyone taking bets on when supporting Musharraf gonna bite us in the ass? <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:00 PM 
Camping Dorn
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Now I'm not saying I have psychic "powers" the likes of Mr. Edwards /pff, but I had a dream last night about a plane/boat painted in UN colors being "shot at" by Iranian terrorists waving nuclear weapons.<
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I swear Arch Lich of Lanys (Retired)<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:32 PM 
Cazicthule Bait
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Quote:Iraq is merely a single battle in the war on terror.After this initial lie, I couldn't read any more. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:31 PM 
Troller in Training
Troller in Training

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Care to explain how it's wrong? Do you contest any of the points or only the fact that I think the justification was accurate? The recently released Saddam tapes pretty much sealed the deal on the fact that he was an imminent threat.<
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However I'm happy to provide you a list if things about George W. Bush that irk me:<
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-Stupid illegal alien amnesty<
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-Never vetoing pork laden waste spending<
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-Mispronouncing Nuclear. It's not Nukyoolar you dumbass<
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-Medicare drug entitlements when we are already facing an impending financial crisis<
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-Not responding to criticism in a clear and concise manner and a general failure to present his reasonings to the American people<
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-Being nice to Ted Kennedy. He's a douchebag and he doesn't return the favor, tell him to fuck off<
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-NOO KLEE ARR! NOT NOO KYOO LAR!<
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-Others I'm sure I forgot. I cannot impress enough the importance of the mispronounciation of nuclear. -Lord Kylahn Dy'Nar - 69 Paladin <Hex> EQ2.Mistmoore<i></i>


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:40 PM 

Quote:Never vetoing<
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Anything, ever! <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:13 AM 
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!
Trolling like there is no tomorrow!

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Quote:The recently released Saddam tapes pretty much sealed the deal on the fact that he was an imminent threat.<
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Please pass the crack. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:22 AM 
Train Right Side!
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There was a general on TV the other night saying we have 2.4 million military (active and reserve) and that only 200,000 are in Iraq. That would leave us more than enough to launch a full-scale land offensive on Iran, if we were so inclided. <
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Financially is that smart? Nope. Politically is that smart? Nope. Realistcally, is that going to happen? I say no, not even if they wre to acquire enough uranium over next decade to build a bomb.<
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First you have to ask, what are they going to bomb with one bomb when they make one? Jerusalem? Hardly. It is holy to Arabs. They know we would obliterate them with a counter offensive strike. Plus, India and Israel, who are our allies, would more than likely back us up. Of course, Russia and China might take Iran's side, purely because of their oil deals. (And some of you go off on Bush about oil...pfft!) They could sell the nuke(s) off to the highest bidding rogue nation. Sure, they could do that...but to what end? We would be able to trace the movement of that nuke and probably intervene as it is in transit. Plus, having one or two nukes (as a country) is not nearly big enough a bargaining chip to threaten other countries that have hundreds of nuclear warheads. It would be like a kid waving a BB gun threatening a dude with a shot gun.<
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So what is going to happen? Well, hopefully the IAEA steps in and asks Iran to cooperate. I doubt Iran will. So what then? U.N. sanctions. Will those do any good? Nope. China and Russia will still be sucking Iran's cock for that oil. So what if the U.S. attacks Iran? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Here's the scenario...<
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Iran develops the nuke. Sanctions fail. Iran starts waving the nuke around and making threats to Jews because they want the Palestinians to have their land back. The Jews, being America's bitch, do nothing and expect us to fight the battle like the big dogs that we are. So we do. We send 2 carrier groups into the Gulf, we send 300,000 personnel into their country, and we do surgical airstrikes on their plants in addition to other tactically important sites. In a furious instant, every Muslim in the world denounces the Zionists and all non-Muslims and suicide bombings increase 100 fold all over the world. Iran kills tens of thousands of our troops with their military might, oil goes sky-rocketing to $120+ a barrel, and the Middle East is thrust into an unwinnable war for decades to come.<
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That's the light side. <
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We could also strike Iran's sites, forcing them to fire off that one (or more) nuke(s) on one of our allies (I don't think they have a delivery system that can hit the U.S....not that they couldn't get that shit from Russia or China), and then the world is thrust into a nuclear duel with Iran. Massive radiation contaminates the entire Middle East region (not that I would cry over that) and then that radiation would float eastward and affect other countries (I'd shed a tear...maybe two). India gets royally fucked with all of the eastward moving radiation, causing them to get pissed at us for fucking up their environment.<
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These are just two possible scenarios, and the details could be completely different depending on each chain reaction. <
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Regardless, I believe the U.S. needs to back the fuck down, let Iran do what they are going to do. Hey, they SAY they just want nuclear energy...so let them do what they say they are using the shit for. If they develop nukes, let it be a U.N. issue, not an America-Iran issue. We have our hands full in Iraq. The WORLD needs to be involved with this. America needs to sit in the background this round and see what everyone else is going to do about this.<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:35 AM 
Selling FBR First Torch!
Selling FBR First Torch!

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wise words bello<
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as an outsider, I can not believe that any intelligent american would swallow this - though I can believe that Bush is that dumb to even think of it - Dr Strangelove anyone?<
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(Am pretty damn certain that Dubya's poodle won't be playing either) <
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Aladinsane<
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Bon Viveur and Pimp to the stars<
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:07 AM 
For the old school!
For the old school!
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Quote:I would also like to point out, that Bush's reasoning for invading Iraq has been pretty much totally vindicated. Saddam WAS seeking WMDs, Saddam WAS colluding with terrorist organizations including Al Qaeda, and Saddam did indeed have all the infrastructure necessary to immediatly resume WMD production at short notice. The only thing missing were large quantities of actual usable WMDs, we only found a few. The rest were in my opinion either destroyed or covertly shipped out of the country, both entirely plausible scenarios. <
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Kay, you really need to post some proof of this, because there is not one Iota of evidence to back any of this drivel up. We found absolutely zero WMD's, or evidence of such. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:42 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

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Not true, Duke. We did find a number of chemical weapons in a stockpile. While not enough to do more than wipe out a small village, they were indeed WMDs according to standard definition.<
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Now, whether or not they were leftovers that missed destruction or a cache hidden by someone else? That's undetermined. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:45 AM 
Selling FBR First Torch!
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It would be pretty ironic if, of the 3 "axis of evil" nations, we allowed two to obtain nuclear weapons (North Korea is already there) while the only one we did anythign about was the furthest from achieving it. - joxur<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:38 AM 
The all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

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Ok Alanis.<
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- arkayn <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:35 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

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This is exactly why Bush Sr. pulled out. Getting Saddam out of power was necessary, but it has left a vaccuum, which is further destabilizing the whole region.... UNLESS we take them all out.<
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I say that we need to take out Iran and anyone else controlling oil and just be done with it. I say this only because it demonstrates what we REALLY started when we went into Iraq. "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."<
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- Soren Kierkegaard<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:42 PM 
Camping Dorn
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:48 PM
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Quote:If they develop nukes, let it be a U.N. issue, not an America-Iran issue. We have our hands full in Iraq. The WORLD needs to be involved with this. America needs to sit in the background this round and see what everyone else is going to do about this.<
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Although I agree. It's not going to happen. Letting the WORLD decide what they are going to do about something usually leads to nothing ever getting done because no one can decide on one thing to do. As the saying goes, "Too many chiefs, not enough indians." Kenyanan Kyswillis<
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70th Wood Elf Vanquisher of Tunare<
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Lanys T'vyl<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:42 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

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Quote:Not true, Duke. We did find a number of chemical weapons in a stockpile. While not enough to do more than wipe out a small village, they were indeed WMDs according to standard definition.<
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Would you have a link to that information? The only evidence I was aware of was trace contamination of old spent shells from the Iran-Iraq war. Remember that one? Remember who was supplying both sides with munitions? Remember who gave Iraq chemical weapons?<
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I posted this link before, after doing a cursory search for information. The similarities in the sequence of events seems pretty significant to me.<
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http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=47792<
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What does pose as a threat is Iran's attempt to re-shape the global economical system by converting it from a petro-dollar to a petro-euro system. <
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Iran is treading the same economical war path Saddam Hussein started when in 2000 he converted all of the Iraq's reserve from the US$ to the Euro, and demanded payments in Euro for Iraqi oil.<
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The source might be prejudicial, but the point may still be valid. The popularized reasons for war are seldom the true underlying motivations.<
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Quote: "Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes...known instruments for
inging the many under the domination of the few. . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." - James Madison, Political Observations, 1795 <
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<i></i>

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:34 PM 
Derakor the Vindicator
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Iran is talking about using Euros instead of dollars to sell its oil. The dollar's worth is tied to its use as the currency used for oil transactions. If that changes, the dollar becomes worthless, and the US will go bankrupt -- and its citizens along with it. It's a real nightmare. But nobody in the government can talk about it because to do so invites political suicide and economic messes. Thus, when our leaders discuss "matters of great economic and national security importance," they aren't just talking about making sure our SUVs can be filled, or that al Qaeda doesn't blow up any more buildings; they're often talking about finding a way to keep the national economy afloat so that China doesn't own everyone and everything here.<
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BTW, you know that the Saddamizer was thinking of switching to the Euro not long before we invaded Iraq, right?<
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Quote:Remember who was supplying both sides with munitions?Beats me. We supplied Iraq because the Soviets were supplying Iran, and we weren't exactly friends with Tehran.<
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Quote:Remember who gave Iraq chemical weapons?<
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I thought Iraq NEVER had WMD? Oops. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:25 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac...ge=printer<
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Quote: U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup<
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Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds<
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By Michael Dobbs<
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Washington Post Staff Writer<
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Monday, December 30, 2002; Page A01 <
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High on the Bush administration's list of justifications for war against Iraq are President Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons, nuclear and biological programs, and his contacts with international terrorists. What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these offenses date back to a period when Hussein was seen in Washington as a valued ally. <
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Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions. <
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http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/hi...25447.html<
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Quote: Iran-contra affair, in U.S. history, secret arrangement in the 1980s to provide funds to the Nicaraguan contra rebels from profits gained by selling arms to Iran. The Iran-contra affair was the product of two separate initiatives during the administration of President Ronald Reagan. The first was a commitment to aid the contras who were conducting a guerrilla war against the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. The second was to placate “moderates� within the Iranian government in order to secure the release of American hostages held by pro-Iranian groups in Lebanon and to influence Iranian foreign policy in a pro-Western direction. <
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http://www.jewishvirtualli
ary....niraq.html<
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Quote: Arms For for Hostages <
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In the midst of the war, the United States changed its position and unexpectedly helped the Iranians. In 1985, the Reagan Administration agreed to secretly sell weapons to Iran to win support for the freeing of American hostages being held by terrorists in Lebanon. The principal negotiator on the U.S. side was Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, a military aide to the National Security Council, who reported his activities to the National Security Adviser Robert McFarlane and his successor John Poindexter. <
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When the exchange was revealed, it proved embarrassing because of Reagan's oft-stated pledge not to negotiate with terrorists and his claim not to have traded arms for hostages. The situation was further complicated by the disclosure that part of the proceeds of the arms sale had been diverted to support the Contra rebels fighting the Sandinista government in Nicaragua; this was in violation of a law prohibiting U.S. aid to the Contras. <
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Quote:We supplied Iraq because the Soviets were supplying Iran, and we weren't exactly friends with Tehran<
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Of course, the infamous picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam.<
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www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/<
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Quote: The international community responded with U.N. Security Council resolutions calling for a ceasefire and for all member states to refrain from actions contributing in any way to the conflict's continuation. The Soviets, opposing the war, cut off arms exports to Iran and to Iraq, its ally under a 1972 treaty (arms deliveries resumed in 1982). The U.S. had already ended, when the shah fell, previously massive military sales to Iran. In 1980 the U.S.
oke off diplomatic relations with Iran because of the Tehran embassy hostage crisis; Iraq had
oken off ties with the U.S. during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. <
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The U.S. was officially neutral regarding the Iran-Iraq war, and claimed that it armed neither side. Iran depended on U.S.-origin weapons, however, and sought them from Israel, Europe, Asia, and South America. Iraq started the war with a large Soviet-supplied arsenal, but needed additional weaponry as the conflict wore on.<
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Initially, Iraq advanced far into Iranian territory, but was driven back within months. By mid-1982, Iraq was on the defensive against Iranian human-wave attacks. The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in Fe
uary 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. (It had been included several years earlier because of ties with several Palestinian nationalist groups, not Islamicists sharing the worldview of al-Qaeda. Activism by Iraq's main Shiite Islamicist opposition group, al-Dawa, was a major factor precipitating the war -- stirred by Iran's Islamic revolution, its endeavors included the attempted assassination of Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz.)<
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Prolonging the war was phenomenally expensive. Iraq received massive external financial support from the Gulf states, and assistance through loan programs from the U.S. The White House and State Department pressured the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing, to enhance its credit standing and enable it to obtain loans from other international financial institutions. The U.S. Agriculture Department provided taxpayer-guaranteed loans for purchases of American commodities, to the satisfaction of U.S. grain exporters.<
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The U.S. restored formal relations with Iraq in November 1984, but the U.S. had begun, several years earlier, to provide it with intelligence and military support (in secret and contrary to this country's official neutrality) in accordance with policy directives from President Ronald Reagan. These were prepared pursuant to his March 1982 National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM 4-82) asking for a review of U.S. policy toward the Middle East. <
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rea...nde08.html<
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Quote:In 1985, while Iran and Iraq were at war, Iran made a secret request to buy weapons from the United States. McFarlane sought Reagan's approval, in spite of the embargo against selling arms to Iran. McFarlane explained that the sale of arms would not only improve U.S. relations with Iran, but might in turn lead to improved relations with Lebanon, increasing U.S. influence in the troubled Middle East. Reagan was driven by a different obsession. He had become frustrated at his inability to secure the release of the seven American hostages being held by Iranian terrorists in Lebanon. As president, Reagan felt that "he had the duty to
ing those Americans home," and he convinced himself that he was not negotiating with terrorists. While shipping arms to Iran violated the embargo, dealing with terrorists violated Reagan's campaign promise never to do so. Reagan had always been admired for his honesty.<
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I never cease to be amazed at how easily the American public forgets recent history. <
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Going back even further:<
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http://www.thirdworldtraveler.co...an_KH.html<
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http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/in...costly.htm<
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Quote:Stephen Kinzer, "Revisiting Cold War Coups and Finding Them Costly: Iran and Guatemala, 1953-54," New York Times, 30 November 2003<
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Soon after the C.I.A. installed him as president of Guatemala in 1954, Col. Carlos Castillo Armas visited Washington. He was unusually forthright with Vice President Richard M. Nixon. "Tell me what you want me to do," he said, "and I will do it."<
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What the United States wanted in Guatemala — and in Iran, where the C.I.A. also deposed a government in the early 1950's — was pro-American stability. In the long run, though, neither Colonel Castillo Armas nor his Iranian counterpart, Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, provided it. Instead, both led their countries away from democracy and toward repression and tragedy.<
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The scenario is pretty much unchanged. The interests of average citizens are not served by the repeated interference in domestic affairs of foreign nations when repressive regimes, dictators and tyrants are put, and kept, in power to serve business interests. <
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en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Balangiga_massacre<
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Quote: Rules of war don't apply in the Philippines<
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Since guerrilla warfare was contrary to "the customs and usages of war," those engaged in it "divest themselves of the character of soldiers, and if captured are not entitled to the privileges of prisoners of war."--General Arthur MacArthur, December 20, 1900 <
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The more things change, the more they stay the same.<
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Mark Twain (Samuel Clements) made some very interesting commentary on the subject.<
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http://www.peacehost.net/WhiteSt...twain.html<
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One excerpt from the Filipino-American website.<
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http://www.filipino-americans.co...amwar.html<
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Quote:Describing their adventures in Malabon, Anthony Michea of the Third Artillery wrote: We bombarded a place called Malabon, and then we went in and killed every native we met, men, women, and children. It was a dreadful sight, the killing of the poor creatures. The natives captured some of the Americans and literally hacked them to pieces, so we got orders to spare no one.� <
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<i></i>

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:27 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!
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To the OP.<
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Do you really, really want to see a nation in the middle of such instability with soft borders and almost limitless money with a nuclear weapon? <
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A country that supports the end of the West and Israel, who has flat out SAID he was going to take out Israel?<
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These people do not fear death, as death gets them to Allah. Iran with a nuke is a huge fucking deal. It's a bigger threat than almost anything else the world has faced in recorded history.<
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The problem here is we need people to help with this shit. America is grossly overtaxed and spread thin. <
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The issue is stopping this problem before they have nukes...once they have them it's fucking over because now they will have the ultimate bargaining chip to work with and the nukes we have mean nothing because again, they don't fear death.<
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Also....what is to keep them from becoming the worlds leading supplier OF nukes of all sizes to groups they sympathize with. You really want to see a set of planned nuclear dispersals around the states? Iran with nukes is one hell of a way to start. Also, any terrorist group would then have the ultimate suicide bomber and would then have the status of a major nation with no borders or land to call home.<
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Seriously, step away from the Bush is bad RooR RooR RooR crowd and really see what we are going against here. Compared to this Hitler looks like a school girl with paper dolls. <i></i>

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:53 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!
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*since I can't edit* <
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That whole Oil for Euros thing sounds shitty. <i></i>

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:06 AM 
Selling FBR First Torch!
Selling FBR First Torch!

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bog off larreth, the way Bush et al want to keep annexing areas is far more like Hitler - next thing he will be spouting on about lebensraum...<
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oh - think your spread thin now? wait till you do invade another sovereign state and have yet another army of occupation to fund<
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Its bullshit, and any right minded soul would be forced to agree - you are being prepped for another blatent series of lies <
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Aladinsane<
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Bon Viveur and Pimp to the stars<
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<i></i>


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:20 AM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!
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I agree with that. <i></i>

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:35 AM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:54 AM
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What happens when a Nuke goes off in Isreal? Will that be Bush's fault? "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."<
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- Soren Kierkegaard<i></i>


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:01 AM 
Cazicthule Bait
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Why would it be? Unless the US built the nuke to begin with. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:46 PM 
Trakanon is FFA!
Trakanon is FFA!
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If we were all that terrified of our currency becoming worthless because of the Euro, we'd switch to the Euro.<
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Quote:If they develop nukes, let it be a U.N. issue, not an America-Iran issue. We have our hands full in Iraq. The WORLD needs to be involved with this. America needs to sit in the background this round and see what everyone else is going to do about this. Russia and China make up 40% of the UN Security Council. They both get veto power on any resolution
ought before the UN. They refuse to
ing sanctions against Iran because Iran is a colossally profitable trading partner for both of them. So: It won't be a UN issue. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:15 PM 
I've pwned over 300 times!
I've pwned over 300 times!

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:11 PM
Posts: 311
Quote:Compared to this Hitler looks like a school girl with paper dolls. That's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. <
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:31 AM 
Master Baiter
Master Baiter

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:52 PM
Posts: 763
news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=577092006<
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coalition of the not so willing this time thx.


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