Well since my rogue really never had access to any of the decent daggers and the class itself has become rather hilarious in pvp I've found myself really enjoying my survival hunter.

The problem I'm running into lately is just outrageous amounts of burst dmg from shammys and the unstoppable bullshit that is a DK or Paladin.

My hunter, Kamikazinky is sitting around 450 ish *iir* resilience and is using the handy snaredog hyena. I am still getting crit for completely unreasonable amounts of dmg. Today a shaman crit me for a 7700 dmg lava burst, followed by 5600 dmg chain lightning. Needless to say after a couple lightning bolts I was toast. I barely even managed to dent him.

Pallies are range nuking me for 2500-5500 dmg with whatever that spell is and have melee hit me for 6500 dmg. I can't kite them, I can't outrun them. Hell I damn near kill myself on that cute dmg shield that hits for 600 or so everytime I shoot them.

DK's are just insane. I had a HORRIBLY played dk yesterday manage to 19 out of the 20 thousand hp I have in the 5 or 6 seconds she was in melee range.

How the hell are you guys dealing with it?

_________________
Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

I'm not a hunter, but I'm pretty much "not" dealing with it =p I'm waiting until 3.1 to start pvping seriously, assuming the nerfs are worthwhile enough. It cracks me up looking at the brackets and seeing almost nothing but DKs =D

Oh, and I'd also throw out that 450 resil is last expansion's "good" resilience, no offense. Most of the classes and people I know get, without any arena gear, around 700 resil. 900ish I think with arena gear for something like a priest. I noticed a large difference on my warrior jumping from 500ish resil to around 700 now.

Even if you have 800 resilience you can get blown up in the breadth of an intercept stun.

Yeah I've heard that much myself. I'm workin on that slowly but surely lol. Just drives me nuts that all a pally has to do to kill pretty much..well anyone is "Stun, and run in a figure 8 until target is dead" Dk's aren't much better, but at least I can kill a Dk on occasion.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

The best strategy against a DK for any melee class is to just get on top of him and circle strafe on his back. 60% of the time you'll encounter an idiot keyboard turner and he'll never hit you. The other 40% of the time, you would have lost anyways.

Range or caster against DK? Sorry, "wait til 3.1" is the official response, just like "wait for resilience" was a few months ago.

On of the coolest strats I've seen hunters use against melee is to put a freezing trap down out of line of sight of the main open area and stand on it. Pop out and open up as they approach and duck back when they get close. When they get to you, they hit the trap and proc your lock and load. Quick circle turn and disengage towards the healer, then unload two instant Arcane Shots from lock and load and an explosive shot, using pet stuns/snares (most often that annoying ass pinch from the crab) to keep them immobile long enough for you to kill them. If it works out right, they're stuck out of line of sight of the healer while you crush them in ~3 globals.

Sometimes, you'll catch the healer by surprise when you disengage toward him and he'll instinctively react by moving away from you and even farther from his partner.

Obviously this is a 2v2 strat, because if you disengage into the open in 5v5 and to a lesser extent 3v3, you just killed yourself.

Probably depends on the battlegroup. "Pray the other guy sucks" isn't something I like to rely upon =/ Still, even if they are pretty bad, they can still win as a DK.

stick to wintergrasp is my advice. 100 v 100 battles = win for ranged classes, just stay with the group and burn down whatever is standing in front of you. Stay out of arena unless you 3v3 with a DK and a healer

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I thought MM was the flavor of the month for PVP Hunters. It just seems to me that you lose some close range effectiveness while SV or BM and MM are more bursty than SV

Is Survival still the best PVE dps spec, or has that changed? I'm going to level my hunter from 72 to 80 starting in a few weeks.

Until 3.1 hits Survival is still the top raid spec for hunters.

From what I am reading after 3.1 MM will be the top DPS spec for hunters

I'm debating a more pvp based SV spec also. If I can get in the dazing Conc shot, the entrapment..etc I think I'd live more. Also, I should go back to aimed shot for another instant that might also keep folks from endlessly healing.

Raiding has been very scarce for me lately, as I've stayed guildless since january. Tired of politics lol. Besides, I can pug everything.

Anyone have a good pvp SV spec? MM never did it for me.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Pretty much. And if you want a focused, coordinated, skill-based fight with fewer people and a non-zergfest, you're pretty much shit out of luck.

Actually though, Hunters do reasonably well with a pally in 2v2 at the moment. They aren't bad against certain makeups.

Yeah, hunters are actually one of the classes that are doing OK in arena. They're no Pally/DK but they're also better off than most, so....

And besides, PvP is total shit right now anyway since Blizzard decided that 45 second arena matches were too long. I don't even bother ATM, if I win or lose it just feels stupid.

I like quick-paced pvp but they've taken it to an extreme where there just doesn't feel like a ton of skill is involved, not like TBC at least.

Arena never was fun, and it never will be.

I've been doing pretty well in WG but 10 minutes of pvp with nearly 3 hours of waiting doesn't seem right.

500+ resil now and still barely noticeable. Druid bit me for 7800 dmg last night lol...right after a 3900 something or other. Deathgrip's range is just ridiculous and the immediate chains of ice and its snare aftereffect is just as bad.

Hell Dk's wouldn't even be so bad if you didn't have to blow most if not all cooldowns on ONE dk just to have another 5 run by and use the same stuff you just blew cooldowns for.

_________________
Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Yeah, fast-paced and strategy-heavy don't have to be mutually exclusive. Nor do fast-paced and long. Hell, a 10-minute match could be "fast-paced", it's all about the tempo and pace of the match, not the length of it.

Sadly Blizzard decided to make things fast-paced just on virtue of lasting all of 10 seconds.

Yep I agree with you. The downtime for Wintergrasp is way too long. It would be much better if it was every 45 mins (one hour tops) before the event starts up again. Blizzard is adding fishing dailies in the zone, and clams that yield large amounts of meat. Maybe this will get some PvP action going on when the main event is on cooldown.

Why even have a time limit other than, say, 5-10 minutes to allow people to take new positions?

So people can organize an archavon run? ;p

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World of Warcraft: Kallaystra, Gweila, Steakumn, Tarathia [ Feathermoon/Horde ]

I guess I don't get exactly how Wintergrasp is run. Never did it much.

I'd run Wintergrasp more if...you know...it wasn't a lagfest that no one cared about winning.

Which, of course, is half the problem with WoW PvP. No one gives a shit about winning anything. It's the reason I actually liked Arena, people actually TRIED.

I was talking to someone in my guild last night about druid Flight Form and how I liked it because it was a great way to escape a sure PvP death or to even just get out of dodge for a bit to regroup, and he says, "Why run? Why not just die, unless you're too lazy to run back to your corpse."

....that made me sad.

Would be nice if the smart people at WoW did two things:

1) Started over on the entire PVP concept. Threw out all the rules.
2) Looked at Warhammer Online, take the concepts that work and improve the ones that don't or invent new ones.

Nosir. Unbuffed MM beats SV by about 200 dps. Raid buffed, due to superior scaling with lightning reflexes, hunter vs wild, and the new Hunting Party (for 3% more agi), SV Hunters are still beating MM Hunters in terms of raid dps.

MM comes close, very close. It will probably never make or break a fight between the two specs for any given raid group, so it all depends on what you want to be, but SV is still -technically- the best dps even after 3.1.

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

The problem with PvP in WoW is Blizzards' entire "no losers" philosophy.

It's clear in their PvE design and it shows in their PvP design as well. The problem with making PvP content that people really WANT to win is that it neccessarily would have to result in people not wanting to lose. So the solution is to just make it so that no one cares about winning so that no one will care about losing, either.

Solution: Battle are constant, but one battle every 2.5 hours counts for being able to zone into the actual instance. Put the separate portal up in Dalaran, and presto. Keep exchanges still take place, you just can't zone in unless your side is tagged as holding it.

With regard to arenas, meh... I enjoy them, I think they are much more a test of skill than a battleground or Zerggrasp will ever be. I'm just glad there's SOMETHING different for pvpers than just burning zergfest BGs all day. I enjoy tight, close-knit teamwork that requires coordination and putting everything you have to the test. It would be nice if it was more balanced, I'd agree.

I might enjoy BGs more if they released a map more than once every 2 years, but I've been over that point a bit =D

Speaking of this, what the fuck ever happened to Azshara Crater? Or am I the only crazy fucker that remembers that supposed BG? The entrances are already designed and there, everything.

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

IIRC it was slated to be the new TBC BG and was scrapped in favor of EOTS.

Would love to have it just to enjoy the new terrain... but alas, for a new map to be released, it must be a complete reinvention of the wheel.

That was scrapped in favor of all the stupid tower capping bullshit they started testing and went with. Eastern Plaguelands, Hellfire, Zanger.

There was supposed to be a Silithis BG as well, but it turned into dust running.

Yeah, my question now I guess is, with so many people bitching about the lack of new Bgs and pvp content, wouldn't it fucking make sense to, oh I dunno, restart development on this shit?

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There is no such thing as right or wrong; only pleasure and pain.

The thing is bliz knows folks will bitch....but they'll keep paying and they'll keep playing regardless.

Wsg is a waste of time if you're alliance and the horde pretty much only queues for this as they ALWAYS win it now. DK DK DK DK DK Pally Pally Pally...blah blah.
AB is alright sometimes.
EoTS is a freaking joke if you're alliance
AV is a gigantic turtlefest that ends on resources

WG is 15 minutes of pvp for a 3 hour wait but at least you have a wide variety of targets to attack.
You get the morons that get the wrong vehicles for the role and then go driving around trying to kill players with them rather than tower/keep..etc.

It's so obvious that the "real" dev team has been shifted to some new project and the B team is working on WoW. Soooooooo many promises they've yet to come through and so many bugs and graphical glitches and reused and reused and reused models...etc. Hell my hunter's pets skills STILL are jacked up when I login.

It's getting to where it's annoying enought that I'm losing interest in playing even with nothing to replace it.

_________________
Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Horde AV premades take about 15-20 minutes to win. I think ours only lost once in about 600 games (mix of premades and pugs) and the allies only got bonus honor once in a blue moon.

The problem is that they would need to double their dev team to do it. They can't pull resources from PVE because they've been taking grenades about how easy the content is and how little of it there is. I mean, how long was WOTLK in development? It took, what, another 6 months after LAUNCH before the first real raid instance was released?

Blizzard does release good content, but not all of that time is taken crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's. They're just flat out fucking abysmally slow.

In the TBC era or late vanilla I would have said divert resources for more PVP, but this is getting kind of pathetic(probably when taking into account how many resources they've diverted to other games now). They can't even get the PVE shit right now, so I'm not sure if I even WANT to ask them to divert to PVP. Fuck!

I still say do something along the lines of hiring a crack team of a few dozen Counter-Strike modders and let them have at it making some maps. At this point, I don't even care if they're good, I'm absolutely sick of going down the exact same trail in AV, there's the tree on the left as I enter that I've passed 50,000 times, oh and I take a right here and go up this path... it's absolutely mind-numbingly repetetive.

You don't HAVE to PVP, you know.

What else is there to do though? Run instances for more enchanting mats that rot in the bank? Gold is pretty worthless. I've given so much of it away. The raid content is abysmal. I've decked three chars now out in 25 gear in only a few runs. I even switched to an elemental shaman because it's different from what I had done in the past 4 years. And even that shit is the same.

There is nothing left to do in this game unless you're an achievement whore. 3 Drake is fucking tough yes, and a worthwhile thing to accomplish, but you know, I really wish they would have just made the encounter that way in the first place and tuned it appropriately.

The biggest thing I hate is how they have pulled both PvE and PvP down to that same low level of mediocrity that the game just isn't fun to play as it was a year ago. TBC had it right, or was almost the right amount of stuff. Arena for the good shit, Battlegrounds for the older stuff. It worked. And while that shit wasn't ideal PvE gear, it saved your ass from having to backtrack everybody through kara.

Uldar looks huge. It has a crazy amount of loot in it. But will it hold people over for another 6 months? Will bosses have giant loot pools and will we see yet another wave of "random loot is not random enough" complaints?

You could always go outside, read a book, play a different game, exercise, learn a new language, yada yada yada.

And yes, Ulduar will end up being just like Naxx is now, as far as the boredom setting in. People will complain about nothing to do as they await the next content patch and/or expansion. Blizzard will promise some things and then take them out at the last minute because they aren't quite ready (just like they are doing with their version of Item Rack, which was supposed to be in 3.1 but will not make it). In the end, there comes a time when people need to either accept that things are how they are, regardless of how shitty that may be, and continue to get what enjoyment they can out of the game, or they need to simply move on.

/shrug, I'm not just pvping. I'm done with 3 drakes, both 10 and 25-man, and all the other PVE content. And lately, I've been playing relatively casually, so plenty of time for all the real life stuff. I wish I could say I was alone in finishing practically all the content up, but nearly everyone else in my guild is doing the same thing on raid days: Log in for a couple hours, done. At best I think most people are now playing around 4 hours per week. There's just nothing to do, and most of us got there playing at casual levels.

I'm just looking at it in terms of both what they previously offered for content, and what other games offer on a regular basis. TBC had loads more content nearly right off the bat. I never felt like I ran out of things to do very quickly as I did with this expack. PvP was of course, still lacking, but at least arenas were fresh back then.

Again, it makes sense because their dev teams are working on like 3 different projects right now, but it's unfortunate.

And personally, I prefer PvPing because it's one of the aspects of the game I particularly enjoy still. I would simply like to see more content for it(along with the... hopefully... balancing changes in 3.1). I know I don't have to, but I enjoy it =) That doesn't mean I don't have criticisms about it, though.

Actually, more accurately - TBC had.. I think a little more content with SSC and TK coming out(and eventually BT and Hyjal), but the main difference was obviously the difficulty level. People didn't simply mow through content and finished the expansion off in a couple months like WOTLK.

By the way, I am not disagreeing or trying to defend Blizzard because I think, for all their genius, they are absolute fucking idiots. I am just saying people need to realize there's a whole big world out there. Most guilds are in the same boat with little or nothing to do in the game other than Sarth+3 (if they have not beaten it already). Naxx can be completed in 3 hours. Maly takes 15 mins. Sarth takes 20 minutes. Archavon takes 10 minutes. In 4 hours, you can wipe out all of the content that the expansion has to offer. That's absolute failure. It was absolute failure when the first guilds were clearing Naxx a week (3 days?) after the expansion hit and some of us said as much, while others thought Blizzard was smart for making it a "starter dungeon." "Wait 'til Ulduar, that will separate the men from the boys!" people exclaimed. Yet, here we are in fucking APRIL and Ulduar still hasn't happened yet. People have been wasting time on the PTR waiting and hoping every Tuesday that the fucker would finally show up in the patch notes, yet there's no release in sight. Meanwhile, peoples' ALTS have 2 sets of Naxx25 gear because Blizzard just doesn't give a fuck if people don't have content. They know that the people will bitch and moan about everything under the sun, yet they'll still pay their 15 bucks a month while they fart around waiting for the next content. And as I said, when that content finally gets here, it will be beaten in almost no time and we'll be twiddling our thumbs once again.

The same guilds that cleared Naxx25, Maly25, etc, first and got the Achievements and titles for doing so will be the ones clearing Ulduar first and getting those same Achievements and titles. People in Conquest, who already have videos on their website showing some of the Ulduar boss fights, will be completely geared and completely bored again in a matter of months. I know the argument: "but they are in the minority!" Well, that was also said about the raid content when WotLK first came out, and ultimately, even the super-casuals are feeling those same pains.

But back to my original point, if PVP isn't what you think it should be, then don't PVP. There's so much else you could be doing other than playing WoW. I have a guildmate (or three) who literally sits there day after day saying, "I'm soooo booooooooored." If you're fucking bored, get another hobby. If you're bored, log out instead of sitting in Dalaran exchanging not-so-witty barbs in the trade chat channel. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Eventually Christopher Robin outgrew Winnie-the-Pooh and eventually people that live and breathe EQ or WoW or whatever need to realize that maybe it's time to move on from their Pooh.

Part of the reason I am going to give FFXI another run. I want my Poo to strip me butt naked, drip hot candlewax on my balls and fuck me with a strap on.

Old poo is a tired bitch.

I largely agree with what Neesha said; for whatever reason people feel that their MMO of choice absolutely must provide them with all their gaming entertainment, week after week, for months on end, if not indefinitely.

Personally I log in a couple nights a week, help out with the 25man achievements and for the most part call it a week. Others in my guild will not only run both 10 and 25 man versions of everything but do so on 2-3 different toons, and great, whatever floats your boat.

In TBC I filled most of the 'slow time' with PvP and Arena but have since come to the conclusion that I don't have the time to devote to both serious PvP and PvE so I play 'lighter games' (ie. L4D or CoH).

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Kuwen Furyblades
Hunter of Memento Reejeryn
Champion of Faydark

Funny, I'm so apathetic now that I totally forgot to roll on the leather legs off Sarth+3 or even loot badges and told an officer to piss off when he bitched about DEing the legs when I clearly needed them.

Maybe a break is in order.

I left SC, got into a decent guild on another server. First raid, tanked Sarth 3D for the first time ever, got him on first attempt, promptly realized that the biggest challange in the game wasn't that big a challenge, and haven't logged on again.

The last thing I feel truly proud of accomplishing in this game was finally getting a bunch of ZA bears with the friends I'd been working on it with for months.

I agree with what Neesha said, but also think that's pretty ok to complain about something you put a fuckload of time in. Whatever floats your boat. All I want to do is raid, and I'd like an mmo that is fully fleshed out for raiding, much like EQ was. Givin hit the nail on the head. No one will do Naxx anymore when Ulduar hits, except the most bored. Once your guild clears Ulduar, do you see *anyone* wanting to log on for the 2nd or 3rd scheduled raid night to do Naxx cleanup? What's the point?

I don't want to play the achievement game for two reasons. First, they give no tangible reward. I don't care about achievements on my 360 and I don't care about them in WoW. The biggest barometer for a high level of achievements is simply time invested, and I know with my life I will never win that game. I don't like to do things I can't at least reasonably try to do well. I know I can be a good raider with the time I have, so that's what I do. Second, and more importantly, they are there simply as a lazy cop-out for developers that can't program original content. Think about how barren WOTLK would really be without the achievement system, and then think about the system itself. It's like this fucked up concept of paying 3x for Starcraft 2 - you get less for more.

Your Starcraft analogy is backward.

The reason you aren't getting shit for content in WotLK is because they are spearheading three high quality Starcraft 2 titles "assumingly" with the majority of their dev resource going to them.

Plus Diablo 3.

And it's smart. Sucks for us, but it's good for business.

These are going to fly off shelves in much the same manner WoW did. They are highly anticipated worldwide. They already got the WoW sales and sub retention. They can bide time with smaller dev teams and fewer content all they please.

They knew WotLK sold itself, and that people would whine after a time, but keep paying on because there isn't anything else. You can tell every time Ghostcrawler opens his mouthshit floodgates. All their upper guys are on other projects now. WoW is left to float and fend for itself with a smaller, inexperienced team.

Exactly. I still don't understand how anyone can argue that you're getting "less for more" without even seeing SC2's game content. Hell, they're even releasing them separately from what I understand to give more time on development for each additional installment. IIRC a blue or someone posted that one of these installments will have more content within them than all of SC1's campaigns combined, and then some.



I couldn't disagree more with the original statement here. PVP is most definitely not what I think it should be, and there are many flaws... but here's the kicker, and what I've said many times: it's the best we got. I've tried Warhammer pvp, and almost everything else out there, and nothing gives me the entertainment that WoW PVP does. The problem is that it's becoming stale with lack of content updates. I still DO find it fun, otherwise I wouldn't play it =) But the bottom line is, serious criticism of content != not finding it fun.

But yea, I'm not like the guy you're mentioning. I get bored at times, just shut off the machine, and go outside and do something. Boredom is not a thing I like to indulge in. But there's definitely a part of me that finds it unfortunate that I usually end up shutting off WoW so quick these days - it's frustrating because there are a number of obvious things Blizzard could do, that don't take up too many resources that would make the game more enjoyable.

Yeah, I posted a huge thing on the WoW forums saying pretty much this same thing. If it wasn't for pvp I think I'd actually be done with the game. CoD5 WaW has been far more entertaining lately.

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Larreth Wolfsong (long retired)
Lanys T'vyl, Everquest

Zinky, Lvl 60 Warlock
Thunderhorn, WoW

Soo true man soo true. Also, everyone should not forget Blizzard is working on a new MMO, and I'm sure WoW will be replaced in a few years (or a SOE station pass setup might happen I bet). I don't see Blizzard releasing content any faster unless they plan on pushing more expan's once a year to make the fast buck.




I have the same feelings (well I enjoy Warhammer tho), but I don't have any drive to log into WoW anymore. At least there is good news, they are working on a new battleground (at least one, maybe two), and it won't take 2 years to see it.

I'm thinking a few months after 3.1 is released...we will see a new battleground. The game really needs more PvP content. I love Wintergrasp, but I just don't want to log in to play the game. I think I need to get back into the arena hardcore again, maybe that will help haha that or I might be pretty much done with the game.

We're making headway. I got you to admit it sucks for the customer, at long last.

Maybe if they made BGs give actual, legitimate exp that you could use to level. The nice thing about Warhammer is that scenario exp (their equivalent of instanced battlegrounds) give really good exp if you win, and it's a nice incentive. The parallel renown rank is also another nice incentive to PVP to do them.

I rolled a DK on a PVP server and OMG they are over-powered (that or I just happened to run into a handful of horde that aren't decent PVP'ers).

Hell, I was in WPL leveling, I saw a tauren warrior in the field that was a level below me, I was between two buildings at nearly max range so I gripped him to me and almost had him dead before his pally friend got there to heal him (they were questing together). I was able to get a silence off on the pally, cooked him then finished the warrior.

This kicker to this is I am not a PVP'er. This is my first real excursion into PVP and my first DK. I'd hate to see what I could have done if I would have known fully what I was doing.

Yes, you got me to admit that a smaller dev team because of refocusing on other project sucks for us that are waiting on WoW content.

Wait, what?

If you're talking about the 3 Starcraft games, I still have zero problem with it. I will do like most will. See how the first pans out, and if it's worth it pick it up. If the second and third are as good, I will buy them as well.

I really don't see why you are so against this other than the whole "this isn't the way its supposed to be" tripe.

That's not really a kicker. You can S key to victory vs most melee classes and heal yourself up and hit like a truck. The pally should've won if they were ret though. Both those classes are really easy.